High lvl Warrior - Tanking Viability (Sub Nin and Sub Mnk)

[Cammus]

Well currently i am a lvl 63 warrior with thf and nin subs available.

I also play lvl 55 bard and a 63 dragoon.

My Warrior is in a static with a Blm , Rdm and a Samurai! So the only people that changes usually is a Whm and a Pld or another DD when i cant find a Paladin! And then i have to tank.

I always tanked as War/Nin due to the input of my LS and these foruns saying how a lvl 55+ Warrior should sub ninja to tanking.

For tanking i use Full AF + Phalanx Rings and i just keep my other DD gear which is +attack and -evasion! (i was told our evasion sux anyway and we rely on our damage to keep hate so there was no point removing this gear).

Keeping hate at lvl 60 parties isnt that hard! But it can get a bit chaotic! I will lose hate sometimes, then i use Warcry as Last resort!

Here are the tactics i want some input:

When i tank as War/Nin and i use Fish Mithakabob the damage i get hit for goes down for VERY VERY few points... i am talking about a 5 dmg reduce from using Meat Kabob. Also when i use Fish Mithkabob i lose hate WAY more often.

From my experience using Meat Kabob instead of Fish Kabob wield almost the same damage taken and way more hate, as i can do rampages of 300-500 using Meat Kabob.

I also found out if i hit defender, its game over! I will lose hate almost immediately as i am relying on my damage to keep hate!

So here are my questions:

As War/Nin

- Should i use Meat kabob over fish?
- Should i just ignore the use of defender?
- Should i just ignore my evasion and use +atk and aggressor?


However since i am in a static i could compare well... When we have Pld tank we do exp chains 4-5... When i am tanking we also do exp chains 4-5! However its a bit more chaotic and mobs dies way faster but mages loses more MP since i am taking heavy damage.

Also I use phalanx rings for tanking i was told the +3 vits rings would be better!!!

- Should i use +Vit instead of +Def?

Now if those questions were enough.

Here is the real reason i made this post!!!!

I always tanked as War/Nin post 55! my whole LS says tank as war/nin! These foruns say tank as War/Nin.

So i did with my Warrior untill 63! But i also play a lvl 55 bard.

I had an interesting group as lvl 55 bard i was formed by these:

War/nin War/Mnk Blm/whm Whm/Blm Brd/whm Drk/War

Yes Two Warriors in the group! We went ahead to see who would tank better.

The War/Mnk used shield and sword! (yah he should have an axe but whatever). The War/Nin dual Axes.

The War/Nin was obviousily dealing WAYYYY more damage than the War/Mnk and when he tanked it was just like we everyone know how it goes.... deals a lot of damage, takes a lot of damage, loses hate sometimes.

We then proceeded to use the War/Mnk as tank as he couldnt deal good damage anyway (shield + sword bleh).

Now it was a REAL SURPRISE....

He was like a freaking Paladin! He could use defender, he would hit for crappy damage, he would be hit for crappy damage (he took WAAYYYYY LESSS damage than the war/nin). He NEVER lost hate during the duration of party. and BTW his gear wasnt that hot and he was same race of the war/nin! (in fact the war/nin had better gear).

So my question is:

- Are you all sure War/Nin is a better tank at higher lvls? From what i saw in this particular Party it might not be true.


My Mnk sub is way too low to test this out yet but i am working on it! I hope to get some input for lvl 55+ warriors which used both subs and their experiences.

[Rogan]

It really depends on what you're fighting, such as anticans obviously you're gonna want /mnk insteada /nin cuz utsusemi will go to about no use, and if the monsters are hard hitters I would also suggest /mnk cuz with /nin once utsusemi wears off he'll hit you for a lot, with /mnk you would be hit for less damage and also since mnk is a DD as well as a class with good HP and decent VIT you will probly keep damage well with g axe doing some nice damage and the HP could help you and your whm, as well as the VIT to put down the damage. I know that I'm a few lvls lower than you are but I form my party's and I've had to ask a war to tank a few times and it seems that war/nin don't always have the time to cast utsusemi and when they get hit it can be real trouble

[Russta]

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bigrussta/chibiwyverns.jpg

WAR/MNK 71/35 tanking Hurricane Wyverns and I did fine the whole night ;)

[Ungerpurr]

War/mnk is a *very* solid tank up to at least 37; I see no reason why it would not continue to be one. Boost, believe it or not, actually adds a solid amount of hate, and you can mix it in with provoke so that you are never going more than 15 seconds without some sort of hate spike in your direction. This has allowed me, to this level, to use fish food and defender, meaning I take far less damage than a paladin at that level (although without the ability to heal myself, so the whm still uses around the same amount of MP overall).

Considering most PLDs do not use defender very often at 50+, a war/mnk can still take the least damage (assuming they're still able to hold hate in seafood/defender mode). War/nin, keep in mind, has about the same amount of hate generation as a nin/war; nin has ninjutsu to hold aggro, war has higher damage.

I think the main reason why /nin is recommended from 55+ is because of dual wield 2 + rampage = solid hate-gaining ability. War/mnk is really not that good during the 50s, but I'd think they pick up again once they have full AF.

[Sheng]

As War/Nin
- Should i use Meat kabob over fish?
- Should i just ignore the use of defender?
- Should i just ignore my evasion and use +atk and aggressor?


-I'd say use Fish mithkabobs if your damage output is enough to keep hate. It'll lower the damage you take, more than you think.
I use Damage dealing gear + Fish mithkabobs, and I do fine.

-Never use Defender unless something REALLY goes wrong in the PT (aka monster add, the BRD-RDM can't sleep it and you tank both at the same time)

-Yes. Evasion is worthless for a WAR or a PLD.

- Should i use +Vit instead of +Def?

After 60, lowering the damage curve is more important then 20 def imo. Sell the phalanx rings, get 2 +3 VIT rings, you'll appreciate the change.

- Are you all sure War/Nin is a better tank at higher lvls? From what i saw in this particular Party it might not be true.


No, I'm not, but I never saw a war/mnk tank after 50, so I can hardly have an opinion about it.

[Sheng]

As War/Nin
- Should i use Meat kabob over fish?
- Should i just ignore the use of defender?
- Should i just ignore my evasion and use +atk and aggressor?


-I'd say use Fish mithkabobs if your damage output is enough to keep hate. It'll lower the damage you take, more than you think.
I use Damage dealing gear + Fish mithkabobs, and I do fine.

-Never use Defender unless something REALLY goes wrong in the PT (aka monster add, the BRD-RDM can't sleep it and you tank both at the same time)

-Yes. Evasion is worthless for a WAR or a PLD.

- Should i use +Vit instead of +Def?

After 60, lowering the damage curve is more important then 20 def imo. Sell the phalanx rings, get 2 +3 VIT rings, you'll appreciate the change.

- Are you all sure War/Nin is a better tank at higher lvls? From what i saw in this particular Party it might not be true.


No, I'm not, but I never saw a war/mnk tank after 50, so I can hardly have an opinion about it.

[Denser]

Ppl tend to exaggarate how good WAR/NIN is for tanking below 74. Infact /MNK reigns supreme until that lvl for tanking.

[Kibagami]

So maybe my posts finally had an eco :P

For a moment there I thought everyone was against the good old fashion WAR/MNK...back in the old days it was the standard...stupid xpansion...(continous ranting all day long....)

[kuu]

There is a good amount of "what is good"

I would pick a war/nin over war/mnk because shadows will protect you from things like WS, spells, andanything not AoE.

With the shadow change, it may be less useful, but those are many reasons to tank with shadows.

As they say it will depend what you fight.

Crab for instance, you will lose hate because it's defensive. In fact for truly good pts, they ignore crabs as pt monsters. It's low chains for a lot of pt setups.

On the other hand low def monsters tend to have power attacks. shadows come in handy.

This runs into what you consider "good"

war/nins should be able to do more damage then a war/mnk and every damage counts at chain 5.

I don't really care about losing hate if the end justifies the means. If the ranger must tank half the fight on chain 5, so be it or if the whm has to sink in a lot of mp.

Inversely you save your skills and power mp on early chains.

basic tatics aside war/nin currently just has "that much more potiental" as a scruffy tank.

btw are you using your full war power? an upto date xbow does mightly good damage and gerenerate hate, not to mention TP. I've can gat lots of hate with war if I use my xbow like mad inbetween other things.

[Techboy]

You guys must understand the difference in tanking methods — Meat shield (PLD-like) vs. DMG/Blink tanking vs. Meat shield/Blink tanking

1) As WAR/MNK, you are a meat shield tank using axe/shield. You should have +VIT gears and will likely have to hit defender to keep taking damages to a minimum. Provoke + Boost and other MNK job abilities will help keep hate for the most part.

2) As a WAR/NIN, you dual wield two weapons and deal as much damage as you can + provoke + warcry to keep aggro. You have all DD gear setup on and uses meatkabobs, but when your 6 blinks wears off you'll take big damages. Unless you have a good back partner who know when to voke it off you, so you have time to recast utsesumi .... then yes, you'll waste a lot of MP. With this method, you'll keep aggro but when your HP hits yellow and red in a hurry then you'll lose aggro fast the second the healers spam cure you.

3) As a WAR/NIN, you load up on +VIT and +AGI gears plus a Master Shield (+10 shielding). Also you'll use fishmitakabob or boiled/steamed crab for +VIT and +DEF. You rely on parrying, shielding, utsesumi to minimized damages. Get a good partner to voke the mob off you for recasting utsesumi. A THF is also necessary if you choose this method to keep hate.

I prefer this hybrid tanking method because it is more MP efficient when done correctly comparing to WAR/MNK or WAR/NIN DD tanking. If you must tank at 60+ levels I recommend having a THF for the full effect of SATA and not someone who subbed THF. Also having a BRD's +ACC and +ATK songs helps you to deal dmgs and keep aggro.

Last night, I turn down a PT invite cuz a dumb DRK/THF wants me to tank a RNG without a full THF to SATA on me. He has the balls to say I'm the 1st WAR that says I can't tank without a THF's SATA. Whenever I have to tank I do prefer having a THF over those dumbass DRK/THFs that claims they can do the job. (They keep forgetting unlees they are going to start every fight with SATA + Spinning splash or Cross Reaper their SATA is only half the strength of a regular THF.)

[Voila!]

I heard trick attack has no hate controlling effects when thief is subbed. This may be why Drk/Thf aren't as useful as Thf/.

[laicram]

Originally posted by Voila!
I heard trick attack has no hate controlling effects when thief is subbed. This may be why Drk/Thf aren't as useful as Thf/.

Thf-Sub Trick does transfer hate, but unlike Thf-Main, it does not do extra damage based on Agility.

Thf-Sub Sneak is "just" a Critical attack that does not miss. Thf-Main Sneak does crit + extra damage based on Dexterity.

[Voila!]

I see, thanks.

[l)@RK-l)EVIL]

Originally posted by Voila!
I heard trick attack has no hate controlling effects when thief is subbed. This may be why Drk/Thf aren't as useful as Thf/.

lol if that was true then i should die after every spinning slash i use 1000~ damage +1000~2000 light vs bones my last pt

[retrosolid]

MNK is a better sub than NIN for tanking. :)

I've tested them both. Instead of just speculating wich is better, I reccomend you actually try it out as well.

Here is the tread I made about it....

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47522

[Ozymandis]

I'd keep both NIN and MNK levelled and use both situationally. Versus monsters with Double Attack, NIN sub loses much of its effectiveness.

If you're really dedicated to the tanking side of our job, try to keep at the least parry and maybe shield capped. I see PLDs and NINs parrying quite a bit... WAR won't parry that much but it's something to help with taking damage. This is a ton of work, even if you've been tanking every party you probably won't have capped parry without joining many skillups :(

Originally posted by Voila!
I heard trick attack has no hate controlling effects when thief is subbed. This may be why Drk/Thf aren't as useful as Thf/.

You're right about DRK/THF not being as useful as THF (in terms of pure hate control). But as others have pointed out, TA still passes hate.

What is bad about DRK/THF is that you're not getting that initial SATA crit that thieves will give you. After a couple of parties tanking with DRK/THF hate controllers, I'm not overly fond of that combination with WAR tank in pickup parties. That initial crit goes a long way to establishing hate against mages and others who have their heads up their asses when it comes to managing their aggro.

[Macht]

Yes, WAR/MNK is actually a much better tank then WAR/NIN. With the sub MNKs martial arts abilities and using H2H weapons you do tend to hold hate a lot easier. The hate you get seems to be determined by varried conditions. You'll get a lot of hate if you deal a huge amount of damage, if you hit more often then anyone else, or restore a huge amount of health.

As WAR/NIN you are basically a gimped MNK in damage even with the Double Attack the damage you do isn't to great (When using Defender and Fish Mithkabobs). This combination is definatly not the best for tanking but it is supreme in dealing damage as long as you are using meat mithkabobs and Berserk often.

Then you will deal a good amount of damage but your defense take a serious hit, even with the ability to use Utsusemi it's way to high a risk factor. Especially when the damage you take is twice that of a gimped PLD playing as a tank.

The safer combination is using WAR/MNK with fish mithkabob or boiled carp and Defender. That along with some decent weapons and you can tank a lot better. As long as you keep your armor up-to-date like a tank would then the fish mithkabob along with defneder will reduce the damage you take to very minimal amounts.

On top of this you just about doubled your defensive abilities, the more abilities you have at decent levels the more frequent they do execute. So a WAR/MNK using an Axe and Shield will end up having Parry, Evasion, Shield, Guard, and Counter all of which has a good chance of kicking it and they do even better with a few DEX/AGI boosts.

A WAR/MNK with H2H will have all the same as mentioned except the Shielding, but now with the proper H2H that are decent in damage and mostly focused on low delay and you have one of the more incredible hate controls you can get. Also the Double Attack is now being taken more advantage of as well with 2 hits a round you are pushing the potential to do 4 hits a round (Not for damage mainly, but for hate control and TP build)

Once you pass the 100% TP mark then you just play a waiting game. The instant that Defender drops you slap on Berserk, execute a WS, remove Berserk, and put up Defender again. You really can't grasp the abilities that WAR/MNK has until you actually give it a decent and fair try. It's does have quite amazing tanking abilities, it's major flaws that it doesn't have compaired to PLD is not being capable of healing themselves, weaker shielding skill, and only gets 1 defense bonus opposed to the PLDs 3 bonuses.

Other then that the Armor that a WAR can wear is the same as the PLD or has an alternate version that is very similar.

[Ozymandis]

Using H2H is a very bad idea for anyone except THFs pre-33 (or maybe later, if you're fighting bones, I used h2h in the Grotto versus bones at 34 and was hitting 400-500 damage Combos).

[retrosolid]

ya, HtH is a very bad Idea to use with WAR...the thing that makes /MNK better is the abilities it provides :)

[laicram]

On H2H, there's actually a "sweet spot" with H2H + War/Mnk. From 48-55 War can use Raging Fists. Even with a D-ranking skill, Raging Fists is the most damaging WS a War can do until Rampage @55 (or Penta-Thrust @51)

As a damage-dealer, you can use Raging Fists to close skillchains (the bigger the last WS, ther bigger the Skillchain effect). Keep in mind, Raging Fists does not fit into "popular" skillchains - ask any Mnk.

As a tank, Raging Fists + Mermaid Ring is alot of hate - even if you miss. +2 Emnity per swing/action. I've done it. Other weirdness is that my Guard is capped at the sub-mnk's lvl, but it seems to activate more as a Mnk-Sub as a Mnk-Main. Ya, I tank with my Mnk, too =O

As with any unorthodox style, ppl will be mad and confused with you. Personally, I hate explaining myself to every other PT. Ask yourself if it's worth it. Other tips:

- Cap your Axes 1st. H2H is more of "a fun thing to do between 48-55" than anything else. Having a Mnk43, it made capping H2H easy.

- Liches at Eldieme, Bones at Garliage

- Ballista 50. Raging Fists is only 5-hit WS at this lvl.

Hmm maybe I should've put this in it's own thread - it does not relate to hi-lvl tanking =P

[Sheng]

Yes, WAR/MNK is actually a much better tank then WAR/NIN. With the sub MNKs martial arts abilities and using H2H weapons you do tend to hold hate a lot easier.

LOL

I stopped reading after that.