se needs to do something

[Rogan]

ok I know this has maybe been brought up 23846234 times, but drg NEEDS imrpovement, it's so ridiculous, even my ls members harass me saying drg cant break 400 damage, it's bullshit! We get no good weapon skills, we're good at TP gain, slight hate shifting...and maybe but supposedly not, renkei. Well anyways I mean there's not a meleer out there that doesnt get something people appreciate seeing other than drg. Drk get guillotine and spinning slash, rng get sidewinder and just plain rack up damage anyways, sam are known for their ws's already, plus TP gain, mnk just rule skeles and get asuran fists, what do we get? nothing, we get skewer-300 damage, wheeling-200 damage...wow...ok if anyone wants to let me know how we can actually damage or argue dont complain that you're "gimped" please let me know

[Fullmetal]

wowowo 49 DRG saying DRGs suck. At least you didn't waste actually HARD xp to get 65+ on DRG. yeah DRGs suck go make a Ranger like i did :thumbsup:

[Rogan]

I'm not quitting drg I'm saying SE needs to do something for them...why should there be a mediocre job, compared to all the others

[Rainsford]

A 2 blm party where you SC with the pld with skewer>vorpal.. On those every few hits where the plds vorpal outdamages the skewer, you just want to kill yourself. and the fact that a berserked, 300% tp wheeling thrust still wont break 300 without double attack going off is total bs

[poweryoga]

power up spear WSes. That alone would fix everything...

[Fingolfin]

Specialize the Dragoon more in Hatecontrol like the thief, they are a mediocre damage dealer anyway. If SE could add some more hate control abilities, the Dragoon wouldn't be such a unnecessary job as it is now.

[Timoham]

only thing DRG really has going for them is they make the perfect SATA bitch with super jump. :\

[ZQM]

Originally posted by Timoham
only thing DRG really has going for them is they make the perfect SATA bitch with super jump. :\

No, the only perfect SATA bitch is a tank.

Melees should hardly ever be tricked onto. Expecially if all the hate is going away. The whole purpose of a THF is hate mangement. When doing a SC and all of the SC damage is onto the DRG, then the DRG erases hate, guess who gets hate now? The BLM after doing a 1k burst.

The ONLY melee that can handle being tricked onto is a ???/NIN.

[Mirkelium]

wasn't it SE that nerfed the drg in the first place?

[lufia22]

Originally posted by ZQM
No, the only perfect SATA bitch is a tank.

Melees should hardly ever be tricked onto. Expecially if all the hate is going away. The whole purpose of a THF is hate mangement. When doing a SC and all of the SC damage is onto the DRG, then the DRG erases hate, guess who gets hate now? The BLM after doing a 1k burst.

The ONLY melee that can handle being tricked onto is a ???/NIN.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he meant the DRG vokes first then lets the THF SATA onto the tank then the DRG uses a jump to shed any hate he might have kept from provoke.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by lufia22
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he meant the DRG vokes first then lets the THF SATA onto the tank then the DRG uses a jump to shed any hate he might have kept from provoke.

Oops. :sweat:

Though I don't see how jump is going to make DRG better, since fui is going to keep hate on your tank (unless he sucks :p)

[WobbleSiren]

I'd like to see /ws a little higher maybe another 100-200 dmg.

What i'd really enjoy seeing is increased accuracy traits. One at 15, i know there is one around 30, and how bout 2 more at 45 and 65. I think out of those 4 accuracy ups, 2 of them should have increaed accuracy for ur pet and you.

[Rogan]

This is what I mean, I wish we didnt have to keep dreaming up all this stuff I wish se could do something and not just sit around and next they'll take away our wyvern, and continue laughing at all the drg....

[tazirai]

Rogan next time please post in the JOBS>DRG section

[Rogan]

I would but noone reads that section lol

[Lahfiel]

Originally posted by lufia22
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he meant the DRG vokes first then lets the THF SATA onto the tank then the DRG uses a jump to shed any hate he might have kept from provoke.

That's still a bad idea, I wouldn't shed hate until after renkei, that way you have a better chance of turning it with voke+WS. It's still not coming off the tank with SATA+WS, but at least you might get some more TP if you land High Jump.

[Turlisius]

When people talk about Dragoons on this board they usually talk about how many places they're gimped in and what kind of improvements they need, but occasionally you find someone that talks about how good the Drg is in damage dealing and such, even outdoing the Drk in usefulness on most occasions. I really don't like people who post on the Drg section things like "Yeah, Dragoon is gimped, that's why I quit at 60 and made a Dark, you should too." I may have not been in the lvl 50+ league yet, but I've seen summoners get invites faster than Dragoons, when what do summoners offer? Backup healing if they're /whm and a nice 2hr. That's it. All those people that spent a lot of time on their Dragoons and getting the job should just stop reading all the negative things and go harass the Smn's instead :biggrin:

[imac2much]

Whether you like it or not doesn't change reality. You may not like the fact DRG are *relatively* gimp end game, but that doesn't make it any less true. Don't hate on the people who post their experiences as it is... that's just unnecessary bias.

I admit that I think the stigma against DRG is a bit blown out of proportion however. I've been in PT's with DRGs while trying to find other members, and people I try to recruit would initially be eager to join, but then say, "Oh you have a DRG... nevermind." Seriously. This has happened so often that it is beginning to annoy me as much as the DRGs.

I've only been in one good PT type with a DRG at high levels. This was fighting Darters in Boyahda with my friend Kurokikaze. In this setup, Kuro was doing exceptional damage on the flies (since as you know piercing is strong against flies)... and the /THF would end skillchain by tricking onto Kuro, after which he'd jump to shed some or all hate. XP was flowing.

However, I hate to admit this but that setup was very situational. Such good XP would not have come if we were not fighting flies. And it DEFINITELY would not have happened if we were fighting bones (at later levels you camp xp on bones in King Ramperre's Tomb).

And another thing... I was also in a similar setup but with a RNG instead of DRG. Since the RNG could pull hate with initial WS (arching arrow or heavy shot), the DRK/THF could just trick onto me and the results would be the same, but with slightly higher xp flow.

Here is the problem: in most cases, DRG will not do enough damage to pull hate by himself. Perhaps on flies, but a competent tank can keep hate the majority of the time anyway. The only way he would pull hate is if there is a THF or /THF to trick more damage onto him.

But if you have a THF, RNG does the job even better, since they are strong against anything DRG is strong against, and on average do much more damage as a whole. If you have a THF, hate shedding is no problem: RNG can pull hate easily when needed, after which the THF just tricks onto the tank.

It saddens me because I like the Dragoon class. But in the very few situations where a DRG can do well, RNG can do better. And no, RNG is not totally overpowered since other jobs excel in different situations (MNKs against bones, DRK/THF with excellent skillchain enders, WAR/NIN as excellent DDs who can handle damage, etc). S-E needs to address this, but we've been saying that for years now.

[Rainsford]

Well WS is the biggest problem. My party and a party of my friends that were next to us were both leveling on skimmers. They had a 2 rng party setup with a brd, while we had drg and thf without a brd. I noticed my berserked normal hits were hitting these skimmers for between 170-220 damage, which I thought was really weird, so I asked one of the rangers in the party next to me what his average damage was per arrow (one of the rangers is richer then the other with Ebow etc, but i asked the one who basically had normal equips) and he said he was averaging about 150 per arrow. Of course, when WS time came and he put up a 700-800 dmg WS with a 500 or whaever barrage compared to my 250 wheeling it kinda put the damage more into perspective, but still i was surprised my swings were averaging more then his arrows.

[Rubik]

Originally posted by Lahfiel
That's still a bad idea, I wouldn't shed hate until after renkei, that way you have a better chance of turning it with voke+WS. It's still not coming off the tank with SATA+WS, but at least you might get some more TP if you land High Jump.

Actually this works perfectly. Our static's method is as follows:

1. THF/NIN pulls
2. DRG/WAR provokes
3. THF SATA off WAR/NIN
4. if SATA misses (rarely), DRG Super Jumps and WAR provokes.

Never goes wrong.

BTW, the WAR ends skillchain so hate is where it belongs.

[Macht]

If a job is bad or not really depends on the view. If you set every job to do the same damage numbers then you will still end up with 1 job being viewed as better then another.

For the Dragoons it's quite obvious that they are medium level damage dealers. They are done as that on purpose most likely because SE views the ability to possess a pet without any penalty and only losing it to death, as well as the Jumps ability to remove hate as being extreemly good.

Good enough that it gives DRGs an advantage that no other job really has, not only that but from what they last did with the DRGs it doesn't appear they are going to be making the player to much stronger but probably the wyvern.

That way the DRG creates his own counter balance to his own ability. You look at every job and they have some sort of counter balance, the DRGs counter balance is somewhat weak. A RNG does great damage but has very frail defense, a DRG doesn't do great damage but also has better defense abilities then a RNG.

So in terms of damage and defense he kind of averages out with his wyvern being that little extra damage that's supposedly makes them better as damage dealers. The counter balance is weak because the wyvern doesn't usually do enough to usually make itself a target of hate. So the only chance of losing the wyvern is from a strong enough AOE.

Now if they do make changes to the wyvern were it has more possibility of getting hate and taking more damage then you start to make a Dragoon a sort of hate control, were the wyvern could potentially have it but when needed the dragoon can take it then give it back to the wyvern by use of his jumps.

That would make the Dragoon and Wyvern combination of use a bit more helpful, thats what I believe they'll eventually be trying to do with them. Anyway it's obvious they arn't done with the job yet so what direction they are trying to go with it will be more obvious with the future updates to the job.

If you look at the job setups that seems like it would balance everything quite well. You'd have a decent number of good hate controllers, a decent number of tanks, a decent number of damage dealers, a decent number of magic users, and the one thing thats left a bit lacking is a decent number of stat buffers.

About the only job strong on stat buffing is BRD, the other jobs have little or none to that effect.

[imac2much]

Good points Macht. However, I must respectfully disagree somewhat.

You're absolutely correct when you say damage isn't the *ONLY* thing you should concern yourself with when comparing melees. However, every job *DOES* bring something unique. Think about this (this is with high level gameplay in mind):

RNG : As you said, top notch damage somewhat countered by frail paper defense. Also gain a lot more hate per shot than other jobs do per swing. Average stat debuffing when using crossbows (acid bolts) and superb damage when using guns and silver bullets. Best example of a raw damage job.

DRK : Good overall damage, though not as much DPS as RNG. DRK/THF is the best level 3 skillchain closer thanks to the high one-shot burst damage of SATA Cross Reaper/Spinning Slash... not even RNG can beat 1.2k-1.4k WS closers unless they are fighting flies with Sidewinder (which doesn't close a level 3 anyway). This in turn brings huge skillchain bonuses; when I pt with DRK/THF we commonly end skillchains with 1.2k Cross Reaper with 1-1.5k Darkness skillchain bonus. Also they have more survivability than RNG thanks to Drain and Aspir (especially during magic bursts) and absorb spells can be very useful if used properly. Gain more hate than other jobs thanks to large hate spikes caused by their job abilities. Can close both light and dark skillchains : versatile. Relatively low defense, although this is caused mostly by job abilities than anything else. Can equip heavy/thick armor for added accuracy and attack.

MNK : At high levels, extremely damaging and has great survivability thanks to some "selfish" job abilities. At high xp levels when fighting bones, MNK's outdamage all other jobs thanks to the high DPS of h2h, kicks, double attacks, Asuran Fists, etc. Chakra, Dodge, Counter lets them survive longer while other abilities like Focus helps their offense. Extremely good damage from chi blast if boosted repeatedly while waiting on pulls. Another good example of a raw damage job, yet they can take occasional lapses of hate unlike RNG. Their WS have lower damage caps than RNG's sidewinder however.

WAR : Epitome of versatility. Good WARs keep two sets of equipment at all times in case they need to keep hate for a while (for setting up trick attack, tanking adds, etc). WAR/NIN can do great damage with proper equipment while also absorbing more hate than any other damage dealing melee. Mistral is a good skillchain starter, but WARs generally do not close lvl 3 skillchains very well, so you need someone like a MNK or DRK to properly close it. Can also equip thick/heavy armor for added accuracy and attack.

SAM : Not quite as useful during the lvl 65-70 stretch because their main usefulness (multiple skillchain starters per fight) is negated. Gekko does low damage for a finisher, and only properly links with Gravitation (which only tanks can use at those levels, PLD and NIN). After 71 and kasha, they are back to the unique crazy skillchain starter that they've always been. I'm not that high yet so I can't speak from personal experience.. all I know is that at my level range they just aren't as usefulas they used to be, but I'm sure they'll find their place again after 71.

THF : Well... i don't really consider them a damage dealing class. I have several THF friends but I'm sad to say that I see their usefulness drop down dramatically at level 66. Everything they can do, a DRK/THF with GS can do better. They do less DPS than DRK/THF, and their SATA Shark Bite does much less than SATA Spinning Slash. Their main draw is pulling and hate management, but DRK/THF can do that too. Oh well.

DRG : They can't support battles with spells, they don't do exceptional damage except rare situations (you only fight two flying mobs from lvl 65-75, skimmers and darters, and darters only take you to 70). So what is their niche in an XP PT? Well, it should be hate management supposedly, but I already explained why it's rather useless. You want a Damage dealer with decent defense, get a MNK or WAR. You want something that will destroy flying mobs or play well with a THF or /THF, get a RNG. Against non-flying mobs, DRG will never do enough damage to get hate and use their jumps. They sometimes gain TP faster than other due to their jumps but so what? Polearm WS bite hard, and Swift Blade with full defensive setup often outdamages Wheeling Thrust with full offensive setup. Also, cannot equip heavy/thick gear. Wyvern dies too often due to most monsters having some type of AE attack (e.g. if you want to fight flies, your wyvern will die. Bones also spam AE but you'd do piddly damage on those anyway). Only way to keep it up is Spirit Link, wasting your mages' MP.

DRG is not needed for 'hate controller'. A DRK/THF is good enough. No THF or /THF and DRG won't get enough hate to 'control hate' anyways. They can't start or finish skillchains very well due to crappy WS. They can't play a support role very well due to no spells and no useful job abilities. Wyvern can heal if you sub mage, so perhaps you'd want to try this route... unfortunately no random parties will ever pick up a DRG/mage, so you'd have to experiment this with your friends.. but in that case, they wouldn't care about uber DPS anyway so you could just PT with them as DRG/WAR due to friendship. But I see no place for DRG in an optimal PT configuration. This is not what I call balance.

As for stat buffing, SMN with fenrir also works wonders.

[struck]

Originally posted by imac2much
But I see no place for DRG in an optimal PT configuration. This is not what I call balance.

Exactly right.

[Lahfiel]

Originally posted by Macht
So the only chance of losing the wyvern is from a strong enough AOE.


/wave every exp/hnm/tulia/dynamis mob I've fought 65-73

As for the last updates all I recall was a crappy workaround they let the janitor at SE think up, and fixing that landing backwards after jumping stuff.

We don't need balancing abilities, what job gets picked for balancing abilities? We need key abilities that make DRG stand out.

DRG 2hr is a cruel joke. It needs to be a regular ability, or the benefits it give as a "pet with no penalty (Um...)" need to be added directly onto us. Little Lunaire's only perk is healing breath with mage sub, which has replaced SAM sub for helping people do AF/farming tougher mobs that other classes could easily survive/defeat.

These are situations in which it is very unlikely for my wyvern to die in the first place. I see no reason why it's a 2hr, or why it should even be under discussion given the change to instant recall if wyvern is dismissed at 100%.

It's workarounds to obvious problems like that, that lead me to believe SE devs don't give a damn about DRG.

[Rubik]

For what it's worth, I really appreciate the last few posts. It's nice to see a discussion about our job that doesn't entirely consist of "DRG suck. Become a DRK or a RNG". Thanks for the constructive input :)

Personally, I think SE does care about DRG. There are some other jobs that I can remember having problems a while back (most notably NIN). In that case, the player base figured out what NIN was good for and now it is an accepted tank. As for DRG, I think the player base has tried to find a use for DRG and come up short. The kinds of things I think SE had in mind for DRG (hate control, potential supoport role as /mage) either haven't really worked out or haven't been accepted by the players, so SE needs to change some things. If this means turning DRG into another generic damage-dealer, so be it. But I don't think it will be very fair to other jobs if we get the ability to do damage like a DRK and are also able to shed hate (even though a job like DRK has some other unique features). DRG needs work, hopefully SE will figure out what to do and do it.

[fuz]

Given imac's extensive breakdown... to my mind it looks like every possible situation is already filled by 2 or 3 jobs. I really don't know what drg could do better than the other melees except maybe solo.

[Patchinko]

I noticed in a recent PT that DRG DOT was pretty high (this was in a mid-20s PT, so things definately change later on), so I'd imagine with the best acc+ gear possible, DRG is still pretty good for DOT later in the game.

My opinion is that SE should give DRG a new job trait that gives them some kind of extra TP return from multi-hit WS. Previously the job was quite powerful, assuming enough acc+ gear to hit reliably, because it was basically WS, hit, hit, WS, hit, hit, etc. Why not give a little bit of that power back, maybe giving 50% TP return on multihit WS or something? It simply doesn't make much sense, because clearly Polearm WS were designed with the TP return from multi-shot WS in mind, to have it nerfed so badly.

I guess I just feel the pain because I've started to level up DRG to use in a few special occassions as a subjob, and it's becoming clear that the potential is there and completely wasted thanks to the TP nerf. I hope they fix it, because the job could be worthwhile otherwise.

[imac2much]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Patchinko
I noticed in a recent PT that DRG DOT was pretty high (this was in a mid-20s PT, so things definately change later on), so I'd imagine with the best acc+ gear possible, DRG is still pretty good for DOT later in the game.

My opinion is that SE should give DRG a new job trait that gives them some kind of extra TP return from multi-hit WS. Previously the job was quite powerful, assuming enough acc+ gear to hit reliably, because it was basically WS, hit, hit, WS, hit, hit, etc. Why not give a little bit of that power back, maybe giving 50% TP return on multihit WS or something? It simply doesn't make much sense, because clearly Polearm WS were designed with the TP return from multi-shot WS in mind, to have it nerfed so badly.
QUOTE]

Like many people have said several times, gameplay low level is in no way indicative of high level gameplay. I was specifically only bringing up high level gameplay. +ACC gear does nothing to change DRG's role. Actually, they get even less +ACC gear than other heavy hitters such as DRK and WAR (they cannot equip thick gear).

As for multi-hit... that would make no sense honestly. DRG was never meant to be a TP spamming WS machine. Sorry, that's the SAM's role. Polearm was not meant to be a huge TP gainer; other weapons have large TP gain as well. Guillotine used to give back nearly same amount as Penta (4 hits but each hit gives more TP), several smaller weapons have 4-8 hitters (sword, katana, h2h, etc). Even before TP nerf, it's not like DRG was useful at high level. Who the heck would want a 150-250 damage WS 2-3 times a battle when you have the potential of 1000 + 1200 + 1500 damage? (arching arrow -> SATA Spinning slash -> Light). I think you're confusing the DRG and SAM job role here.

[Patchinko]

Originally posted by imac2much
Like many people have said several times, gameplay low level is in no way indicative of high level gameplay. I was specifically only bringing up high level gameplay. +ACC gear does nothing to change DRG's role. Actually, they get even less +ACC gear than other heavy hitters such as DRK and WAR (they cannot equip thick gear).
I said, "things definately change later on." Being in a set PT in my high level jobs, I don't have a chance to take the data on DRG DOT later on, though I've seen numbers that don't make it look completely worthless as general melee, assuming it can hit. I didn't say it's better than any other job because I don't believe it is--it's the last to get invited to a PT for good reason. However, that doesn't mean that it doesn't have relatively high DOT, which could thereby be accentuated with a improvements in TP gain and polearm WSes.

As for multi-hit... that would make no sense honestly. DRG was never meant to be a TP spamming WS machine. Sorry, that's the SAM's role. Polearm was not meant to be a huge TP gainer; other weapons have large TP gain as well. Guillotine used to give back nearly same amount as Penta (4 hits but each hit gives more TP), several smaller weapons have 4-8 hitters (sword, katana, h2h, etc). Even before TP nerf, it's not like DRG was useful at high level. Who the heck would want a 150-250 damage WS 2-3 times a battle when you have the potential of 1000 + 1200 + 1500 damage? (arching arrow -> SATA Spinning slash -> Light). I think you're confusing the DRG and SAM job role here. I'm not confusing anything and it makes perfect sense. DRG fills a very similar role as SAM in a PT. In addition, it's not coincidence that Polearm WS are multi-shot WS. They were designed with the TP return from multi-shot WS in mind. However, with the TP nerf, DRG is far inferior to SAM for the role of DD, and that should be repaired in some way. You're saying that additional TP return in multishot WS for DRG would make it too similar to SAM, but that's been the case since the job's inception. I agree that DRG WS are too weak later on to warrent inviting one over a SAM, but giving them the opportunity to use WS more often at least will improve DRG's DOT and make it slightly more useful. In reality, that wouldn't make it much more similar to SAM than it already is since SAM's main purpose now is skillchains while DRGs would be DOT.

I don't mind you disagreeing with me, but if you're going to, have more of a point than simply to tear down my ideas about how to improve the job. You say "that was never meant to be DRG's role." Then what do you think it is and how would you improve it in that area?

In its current state, PTs would rather wait for a MNK or SAM to go on seek than invite an already-seeking DRG, so yes, something needs to be done to make it worth inviting. If you have a better idea than mine, by all means, I'd like to hear it (and preferably without the condescending tone).

[imac2much]

I apologize Patchinko. I didn't mean to sound codescending but looking back on my post I most certainly did. My fault, I'll try not to talk in such a manner.

I didn't mean to rip your ideas, but my ideas for improving DRG have already been stated to friends and other posts, so I must have forgot to state that here ><

I believe it's best to give DRG something unique, instead of just making them do more damage like most people seem to want.

I think perhaps some way to spike their hate, also reducing cooldown on High and Super jump, and a stronger lv 225 WS.

Since wheeling thrust will be enhanced in next patch, let's hope it's as good as when spinning slash was enhanced (it sucked before that patch a fwe months ago). If it becomes strong enough, then perhaps DRG can get enough aggro enough to make their jumps more useful. We can only hope!

[ElJoyo]

i hope they enhance wheeling thrust a lot >.<
would be nice to see 500-600ish dmg and then an additional defense down effect XD

[Patchinko]

Originally posted by imac2much
I believe it's best to give DRG something unique, instead of just making them do more damage like most people seem to want.

I think perhaps some way to spike their hate, also reducing cooldown on High and Super jump, and a stronger lv 225 WS.

Since wheeling thrust will be enhanced in next patch, let's hope it's as good as when spinning slash was enhanced (it sucked before that patch a fwe months ago). If it becomes strong enough, then perhaps DRG can get enough aggro enough to make their jumps more useful. We can only hope! Apology accepted, and thanks for posting your ideas.^^

I actually think you're dead-on about DRG needing something unique as a role in PT. "General melee" as a group gets shafted because there are simply too many of them, and often one of them isn't as good as another (in most cases DRG) and therefore is unwanted for a certain level span.

It would be great if DRG were formed into a hate-control job, which this game is mostly lacking aside from tanking. Something like a variety of jumps, some that build hate similar to a provoke and others that shed it equally as well might be able to accomplish that. However, I think hand-in-hand with that kind of capability comes the need for DRG to be able to equip some real armor as opposed to being confined to stuff like Tiger Jerkin. (I will say that DRK, if played extremely well, is pretty much a hate control job, but it's so rarely played well enough that another job could fill the role and it wouldn't take away from DRK.)

I think there are a few ways one could go with DRG. I think originally it was intended to do a lot of DOT, but it was realized somewhere along the way that DOT isn't as important as good renkeis, so the job has been getting tweeked a lot to find a new role for it. Unfortunately that means months of it becoming an even weaker job. Hopefully there will be a few more goodies for DRG in the Promathia patch.

[Rogan]

well lets hope I made this thread for nothing (aka wheeling thrust does a lot of damage and se no longer "needs to do something")

[Jayna]

If dragoon ever becomes a hate control job I'll quit.

The reason dragoons are perceived as sucking is because the high level weapons skills don't do 800-1000+ damage, to believe otherwise you're just fooling yourself.

[Rogan]

I agree thats what I made this about I hear all these people getting these awesome ws's then I hear ours cant break 200 so I was pissed, thats why I started this thread

[Darkani]

An ability that shed other party members hate would be awsome. Like take a party member with you in the super jump to shed hes hate.
Other than that and the upcoming patches I dont think we need more. I belive that we will get some good equip with CoP.

[Patchinko]

Or some kind of skill that funnels hate from one person to another. Right now the only skill I can think of that directly performs this task is Trick Attack, and that only applies the hate from the person doing the move onto the other person, and not from one PT member to another. Done well, that would be a really interesting job feature that might prove quite useful in some cases.

[Sorath]

I'm an avid supporter of the less-common DRG job (with most reference to high end gaming) and I would like to see this underhyped job improved as much as you guys, in a unique way.

Also, I think althought SE gave DRGs the mandatory Jump abilities, lets have these abilities strengthened instead, since IIRC DRGs back in FF games could really dish out damage with their jumps.

Perhaps add some sort of debuff to existing jumps, or have a new jump that does something new (and also up the damage done by jumps slightly, SLIGHTLY, to keep them in line with other DD)

A jump attack that pierces the armor and lowers mob defence/evasion will be nice, thus a DRG is more PT friendly and other melee will enjoy PTing with DRG for the defence debuff they possess.

I am aware there are many other ways to debuff a mobs defence, this is just an idea.

[fuz]

Dragoon is a perfectly fine job, damage and all. If you parse a log with a decent drg, you'll find that they are in no way gimped. The only thing that they get shafted on is HNM hunts where they have nothing to expolit.

Drk (souleater,ws), Sam (meditate, ws), Monk (Chi), War (tank, high acc). Drg has jumps that miss often, don't do much damage, along with a wyvern that heals when using less than ideal subs.

[Ian112]

RANT! and how come the only time people associate monks with

are bones? When i Hit 60 Monk and learned howling fists(Thank

Ya Lord!) i was killing IT low def raptors and my regular melee

punches were up to 85 a punch/ 757 Raging Fists/ 648 Howling

Fist(wewt!). Yet i see this many times hen i PT but everytime in a

thread concerning another job bones are in the same sentence

as Monk ; ;. Anyways i think DRG is ok and i think they are strong

as hell but the WSs need work and the AF stats are pointless

(makes wyvern happy). DRG is very VERY strong at lower levels

but i agree with you all... what happens to them after 50? It

makes it seem as if the Wyvern owns the DRG after a while :zzz:

[csBahamut]

makes it seem as if the Wyvern owns the DRG after a while

SE seems to have made the Dragoon/Wyvern relationship important. Adding the Wyvern's damage to the DRG's makes up for the lack of a good WS. So it's not all spammed at once like RNG or DRK, but do they need to do that? No. Sometimes huge spam damage isn't good and causes hate issues. We don't need an other job that has to hold back.

Some kind of passive jump trait that increases the effectiveness of jumps would be nice, or maybe give a % chance to stun the mob(i.e. the Jump like move Orcs use). The "Dragon Sword" ability from FFV could be handy too. Allowing DRG to syphon off HP directly from the mob every 5 mins would help counter spirit link, even if it only got 80-120 HP recovered per use. That's that much less the healers need to cure. Another cool idea would be to have the Wyvern breaths cause some status effects. Ice would paralyze, Wind would silence, etc. The pass hate idea is a neat one. It'd make DRG useful in HNMs to take hate off the BLM and RNG.

Another interesting thing that could be added is a 30 sec group acc buff. PLD has Rampart. WAR has Warcry. Why not have a few others? SAM could get a group TP gain one. maybe give all party members 20 TP or some amount.

DRG damage is still good, it just isn't a big hitter on ITs. That's where the wyvern comes in. Finding a good balance between buffing the wyvern and the DRG is the key to getting good damage from the DRG. Of course, I can't speak from experience past my level. And DRG still need access to better gear. Scorp Harness on DRG doesn't cut it. It just looks like crap on a DRG. DRG should be able to wear real armour.

One thing I did wonder is about Wheeling Thrust's 'ignore defense' trait. Does it apply a defense down to the mob, like a WAR's GA WS, or does it allow the DRG to ignore a portion of the mobs defense? If it does the latter, couldn't wheeling thrust be handy on HNM because it can ignore a significant enough potion of the defense?

[Rainsford]

It ignores a portion of the monsters defense. So while when you are EXPing and you wheeling for about 300-400, it looks like garbage. But when you are fighting a higher level monster and you land that same 300-400 wheeling, it looks alot better when everyons dinking it for double digits.

[Grizzlebeard]

I've always viewed the wyvern as an augmentation to the dragoon's damage much like a beastlord in EQ, sorry for the reference. Basically, without their pet they do average damage but with it they do very high damage. Problem being the wyvern's accuracy stinks and the fact that summon wyvern is a two hour ability not a 10 or 15 minute one is patently absurd when you take into account the number of xp mobs that have seriously damaging AE's. One possible solution I could see for dragoons is the introduction of a WS that breaks the 500 mark, reduction of summon wyvern to 10 minutes, and the addition of a useful two hour. Something along the lines of a wyvern buff that allows it to do a WS or just super buffs the thing for 30 seconds. I actually like the idea of a WS because it works along the lines of the dragoon and wyvern working together.

[Bahamut182]

99% of the time, my wyvern has the best accuracy of any PT member, even without my AF gloves. And i find nothing wrong with "Call Wyvern" being DRG's 2hr, I don't see anyone else's 2hr doing 600+ DMG each fight. People say their 2hr is better for finishing a chain... well, maybe having to do 600 less damage each fight might also help, just a little.

[Lahfiel]

I think I managed a 400ish on Fafnir, but most of the time I was healing or casting stoneskin, and hit Wheeling for mid-100's or missed. That's probably my worst issue with Wheeling now, it still has the same poor accuracy.

Some people are fine missing 3-8 times a pt, but it messes up MB and exp chain, and could potentially kill a mage dropping a big nuke that was supposed to kill the mob. I rarely miss it now with around +54 accuracy, but I've managed to do it. Really, I don't see how you can be coordinated enough to twirl a giant lance around, only to completely whiff a monster over twice your size.