Researching THF and subs.

[Ruic]

Hello. I'm by no means a THF, I'm mostly here gathering information and research to talk with a friend about her THF, in fact she'll probably read this. :P I decided to post this thread after reading a little bit from the first few pages of this job forum, and would like some feedback. I'm not looking to open any can of worms discussions here. I'm merely asking for perspective and answers, so please be civil, thank you.

The thief itself I am fully aware of the skill ratings and the traits gained... And I have my experience with raising THF, and playing with those in PTs etc, as well as a few experiments with stats.

Here's a few questions:
Steal - Post below says Steal is unaffected by stats. Given the experiences I've had, and those I've witnessed this seems more correct than INT being the determining stat. What is the general thief consensus on this?
Sneak Attack - Formula I've always heard is that Sneak Attack works by adding your Dexterity to your Weapon's Damage, then scoring a critical hit, while also granting 100% accuracy. Correct?
Trick Attack - Formula of TA seems to be the same as SA, but adding Agility instead, and giving hate to the person whom it is used behind. I also believe 100% accuracy occurs here as well, but no critical hit is scored simply a strike with that enhanced damage pseduo-weapon. Correct?
Treasure Hunter I - Gives additional "rolls" towards finding items, but does not increase chances of finding rare items. True/False?
Treasure Hunter II - Gives more additional "rolls" towards finding items, but DOES increase chances of finding specifically flagged "Rare" items. True/False?

Sub Questions:

WAR Gives (of note):
Provoke (10/5)
Phys Def up 1 (20/10)
Berserk at (30/15)
Double Attack (50/25)
Phys Def up 2 (60/30) (Unsure, but should follow rule of 20s)
Phys ATK up 1 (60/30)
Warcry (70/35)

Obviously the important things here are Double Attack and Berserk. Due to the diminishing returns and exponential scale damage calculations of FFXI, Berserk granting a 25% ATK bonus would result in consistently higher (closer to cap damage) SATAWS combos, as well as improving the damage on the normal hits of the THF. Double attack is the big curiosity for me here. I had assumed, perhaps foolishly of me, that double attack would function with triple attack just like double attack functions with Ninja duel wield, or Monk h2h weapons. Are they incompatible? Do they prevent each other from happening? Can any hit of a triple attack trigger double attack, or can double attack hits trigger a triple attack?

I think that the WAR subs primary concern would be gathering TP, as it would have the least haste bonus, accuracy, and TP growth of any THF sub. However, this may be untrue as combined double and triple attack may make up for it. Does it? Do you THF/WARs out there find the extra damage from your SA/TA/WS or SA/TAs with Berserk worth the slower TP growth? If possible can you give me comparable numbers, IE 500 without berserk, 600 with? Does this damage boost outweigh the TP loss? Also how easily is it for THF/WARs to voke the mob off and Perfect Dodge in an emergency to save their PT? And as an afterthought, THF/WAR is arguably the best farmer in the game, normal mobs and NMs.

NIN gives (of note):

Stealth (10/5)
Duel Wield I (20/10)
Utsusemi: Ichi (24/12)
Resist Bind (40/20)
Duel Wield II (50/25)
Stealth II (50/25) - (Unsure if stealth follows the rule of 20s)
Utsusemi: Ichi (74/37)

This seems pretty straightforward to me. Ninja offers Stealth which helps with pulling, 15% haste, and the slightly better ATK/ACC bonuses from a secondary weapon. But it really boils down to 15% haste, slightly better pulling, and blink.

RNG gives (of note):
Sharpshot (1/1)
Widescan (1/1)
Alertness (10/5)
Accuracy Bonus (20/10)
Rapid Shot (30/15)
Camouflage (40/20) (Does this work for SATA like Hide?)
Widescan II (40/20)
Alertness II (50/25) (Again unsure if Alertness follows rule of 20s)
Barrage (60/30)
Accuracy Bonus II (60/30)

I read the thread about THF/RNG but, something that was passed over, which I felt you may wish to know, is that the RNG accuracy traits also affect melee accuracy in a very large way.

Here's a link to a thread discussing RDM Archery, it is somewhat old, but still full of good information.

http://ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43704

The most interesting information from this post, or at least pertinent to THF mains is the following.

Quoted from Apple Pie:

/RNG10 : +10 Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy
/RNG30 : +12 (Total 22) Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy
/RNG50 : +13 (Total 35) Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy

For your reference,

Focus (MNK25): +20 Accuracy
Aggressor (WAR45): +25 Accuracy
Sword Madrigal (BRD11): +15 Accuracy (Can be up to +19 with Traversiere +1)
Great Sword Madrigal (BRD51): +25 Accuracy (Can be up to +29 with Traversiere +1)

End Quote

Obviously the best you can get from a RNG sub is Accuracy Bonus 2, but consider the fact that not only does it open up the abilities discussed here, but also tacks on an additional 22 melee accuracy to THF's dagger, along with opening up competent ranged attacks (including barrage and sidewinder/slugshot), widescan and alertness for pulling. So as to the value of RNG sub, just how accurate are THFs later on with their daggers? Would +22 melee accuracy result in a very marked improvement in TP gain?

It seems to me that the most important thing for THFs is building TP, and landing powerful SATAWS's. The second most important thing for THFs is being a competent puller.

Final Comparison:
WAR: Gives much more powerful SATAs 60% of the time through berserk. Gives additional TP through double attack. Has arguably the worst melee accuracy. Gains abilities to help the PT though, IE Voke+PD, and Warcry for later Renkeis, and has stronger hit per hit strikes. Has less pulling ability, but has much better "tanking" ability, and could withstand taking a few hits on the run-away pull. Has moderate flexibility due to subjob abilities, and has limited support abilities such as warcry. Also gains access to some sword weaponskills not normally available to THF.

NIN: Gains access to blink, slightly better equipment bonuses, and a 15% haste. Has stealth to assist in pulling the right mobs, and isn't likely to take damage on the run-away pull. Has slightly better accuracy compared to /WAR but much less than /RNG, hits for less per strike, but does have a 15% haste bonus which helps build TP. Easily the -least- flexible THF sub.

RNG: Has the best pulling ability of any sub possible, but also the most fragile, and may suffer the most damage on the run-away pull. Gains additional TP through very improved accuracy in melee and ranged attack abilities, and through the use of timed abilities such as barrage. Has access to ranged weaponry, and if willing to foot the bill can drop more damage over time than their daggers my cause with them. Can utilize debuffing bolts and arrows effectively to help support the party, and gains access to RNG WS's resulting in by far the most flexibility available from any sub. This sub would require equipment changing macros to work effectively which would also cost a lot. And as an afterthought, THF/RNG is arguably tied with RNG/THF for being the best farmer of wide-popping mobs to farm, or NMs such as the Valkurm Emperor.


So please help me out. How correct is my above analysis of the THF, and the three subs I have presented. If I've made any incorrect assumptions, what are they, and what is a more correct perspective? Thanks in advance to anyone who chooses to respond.

[John Doe III]

RNG: Has the best pulling ability of any sub possible, but also the most fragile, and may suffer the most damage on the run-away pull. Gains additional TP through very improved accuracy in melee and ranged attack abilities, and through the use of timed abilities such as barrage. Has access to ranged weaponry, and if willing to foot the bill can drop more damage over time than their daggers my cause with them. Can utilize debuffing bolts and arrows effectively to help support the party, and gains access to RNG WS's resulting in by far the most flexibility available from any sub. This sub would require equipment changing macros to work effectively which would also cost a lot. And as an afterthought, THF/RNG is arguably tied with RNG/THF for being the best farmer of wide-popping mobs to farm, or NMs such as the Valkurm Emperor.

Very nice and well said. But please do add that THF/RNG needs to have what ever range your using capped. Otherwise you will not get the best out of the sub and just be a THF basically...without a sub who isn't hitting the mob.

[Mithrankittycat]

trick attack alone can miss.

[Ljarin]

Also factor in the + Dual Weild items like the 5AA earing Suppanimoni (can't spell it even tho I have it :p) sarashi belt etc. to thf/nin

[Huck]

I play a Thf/War.

Triple and Double CAN occur on top of each other. It works each hit of the triple could trigger a double, and vice versa. It's fairly rare. One time, I set off an uncontrolled chain reaction. I was swinging with my dagger so fast. Imagine an 18 person alliance, getting hit by an AOE, the text scroll of my dagger hits ~ the text scroll of them taking damage. It did not last long, but I dropped the monster we were exping off of from about 33% health to dead in moments. The party was like "Holy wow!".

Non-Berserk SA/TA/DE ~800
Berserk SA/TA/DE ~1200
Thf/War DE's will do more damage as well, due to Double and Triple attack. Each hit of your DE has a chance to be a Double or a Triple, making it able to do more than 6 hits, or atleast increase your hit's per WS. (I once hit an IT Peryton in an exp party for 1600 damage, *there was a BRD in the party, using Madrigal)

TP gains, I find thf/war to be fine as far as TP is concerned. I get TP just as fast as anyone i'm SC'ing with, faster than some jobs, I usually end up waiting for the other people to get TP. With Double and Triple (Ignoring unlikely situations where they both occur) You get TP pretty quick.


Thf/Nin has dual wield. I don't think it's worth THAT much, true if you use a 150 delay dagger in your off-hand, you will get TP pretty fast. You can also Blink yourself and not get beat on by Raptors on long pulls saving the healer some MP when you get back. I guess at 74+ 2 Blinks is a lot of fun for solo'ing/farming, I have to admit, even a thf/nin disbeliever like myself is looking forward to then, But I would still use thf/war in any EXP party, I Just don't think the marginal TP gain bonus is worth sacrificing your damage. A thf/nin may get 120% TP by the time a thf/war gets 100%. (I just remembered fighting next to another PT who was the same level as us, and they had a Thf/Nin hitting sa/ta/de for 600ish, while my sa/ta was hitting for ~500. *With berserk)


Thf/Sam is interesting too. I played with that to test it out, you turn a 5% hit to a 6% hit 60+, and Meditate is lots of fun. (You only get back 60% TP however :() But if you're just looking at TP, thf/sam could possibly be "Better" than thf/nin. And if Thf/Sam has a Viking Shield... hmm...


I don't know about thf/rng.
Widescan could be usefull on some pulls, Barrage could get some nice TP back, But I don't think you'd be using any bow/gun WS's because Dancing Edge is just so sweet ^^


/War is the best sj for exp parties IMO.
And that's not coming from a blind hater too lazy to level subjobs. The only one I haven't used is RNG, such a pain to level RNG for me it seems ><

Thf/Whm is great fun for farming. I find waiting for HP to heal so borring, and MP is so quick to recharge.... DS + Cure III, BAM! you're good to kill more monsters. Auto-Regen, can't complain about that either.

[Tokitoki]

Originally posted by Ruic

Trick Attack - Formula of TA seems to be the same as SA, but adding Agility instead, and giving hate to the person whom it is used behind. I also believe 100% accuracy occurs here as well, but no critical hit is scored simply a strike with that enhanced damage pseduo-weapon. Correct?

TA isnt 100% acc

[leii]

yea trick attack can miss but sneak doesnt.

[Nova Jakatah]

Did anyone else care to post that TA can miss? No? Okay, let's not then. ^_^

I'm the mentioned friend, and thought it was high time I gave a public thank you to Ruic for going to all this trouble. After checking out both /WAR and /RNG (with plans to try /NIN at a time when I can be more leisurely - and I am -not- paying for stacks of quivers of arrows), and while I realize I'm not exactly to the point where sub is going to make a huge amount of difference, /RNG is so far the most enjoyable for me.

For those out there who are wanting to take the plunge and be a little different, I'd like to encourage you to give /RNG a try. You still get invites, you still SATA like nobody's business, and it's quite a multi-talented combination. I can pull, I can hunt for specific mobs and scout out party locations, and best of all I can shoot things (currently archery, later will be switching to marksmanship) and not miss, miss, miss. So basically a ranger with the ability to do a lot of damage with a dagger instead of bow, steal shiny beastcoins, trick my enemies into thinking I'm something other than what I really am, and look really good in a green baby-tee. Novel eh?

Oh yeah, and you can actually wear the Iron Muskateer's Gambison! So sorry RNG mains! ^_~

I have never played the "end game" so I don't know what comes after this, how gimp or not gimp I will be without a /NIN, but I'm going to see this through as long as it's amusing.

[Hitokami]

Please sticky this, this is one of the most informative posts ive read on sub-job comparison. Well writen and flame proof /em Crosses his fingers

[Omena]

Originally posted by Huck
I play a Thf/War.

Triple and Double CAN occur on top of each other.


Wrong. Triple and double attack can not trigger on each other. If both trigger on the same swing, triple takes priority and no doulbe attack occurs. It is not possible to get triple or double trigger on hits given by triple or double either.

Originally posted by Huck


Just don't think the marginal TP gain bonus is worth sacrificing your damage.



With 200 delay daggers the TP gain bonus is around 30% and obviously it is even better with even faster daggers. I don't know why you are calling that "marginal". Getting 100% TP in 60 seconds is pretty good in my opinion. With some luck I can use WS in several fuidamas in a row.

[Tythera]

I tried THF/WAR on Toramas a few days ago and I was still getting TP as fast as the DRK I was SCing with, and berserk pushed my average on DEs about 150-200 higher. While I was not quite getting 100 TP every 60 seconds, it wasn't that far off. I like and use both NIN and WAR, and in my opinion they are about equal in usefulness and damage. If my static had a RNG, I'd probably stay NIN sub all the time to try to get TP as quick as possible (TP gain for NIN as the above poster said is obviously faster). Since I end up waiting for my skillchain partner though, I'll probably stay subbed WAR for a while.

[Ruic]

Originally posted by Omena With 200 delay daggers the TP gain bonus is around 30% and obviously it is even better with even faster daggers. I don't know why you are calling that "marginal". Getting 100% TP in 60 seconds is pretty good in my opinion. With some luck I can use WS in several fuidamas in a row.

I'm not trying to start an argument over this, but the numbers are a lot closer than most people are considering here. Ninja haste does not give a 15% -per hand- bonus, resulting in a total 30% haste, but it gives a total 15% bonus. Increasing your dagger speed, or using slower swords does not decrease or increase ninja's haste effectiveness. So I'm sorry to say that you're wrong.

THF/NIN using 200 delay daggers = 400 delay "pseudo-weapon"

Pre 50/25 (Ninja DW2 at 25 you will receive a 10% haste

Haste Calculation: 400 * (1/1.1) = 363.6 delay "pseudo-weapon"

Post 50/25 THF/NIN

Haste calculation: 400 * (1/1.15) = 347.8 delay "pseudo-weapon"

Even if you were to change the dagger speeds to 150, you'd still be receiving only a 15% haste from ninja post 50, and 10% before then. Just paste whatever combined delay you want into the place where I have 400.

This means you will be able to get TP on -average- 10% or 15% faster. But if double attack kicks in once every 8-10 swings or so, it is equalling the number of attacks given from the boost of ninja haste. Now, this argument can be taken further by considering accuracy.

Let's set dagger speed at 200. There are 60 frames (60 delay points) in a second. This equals 3600 frames a minute.

A THF/WAR attacks 18 times in a minute. (3600/200)
A THF/RNG attacks 18 times in a minute. (3600/200)
A THF/NIN attacks 20.5 times in a minute post 50. ((3600/347.8)*2 for two weapons.)

During the THF/WAR's 18 attacks, if he/she triggers double attack -at least- twice, the bonus from /NIN is nearly negated entirely, while the THF/WAR retains the much stronger berserked weapon skills. And THF/RNG is going to have a -much higher- accuracy, meaning it will convert more of the 18 attacks into useful TP.

Really what this argument boils down to in terms of combat abilities (I feel I've approached subjob abilities above.) Ninja is the most consistent, there is nothing flashy here at all, you will attack a flat 2-3 times more per minute. Warrior is the most powerful, AND can give just as much TP as /NIN through double attack. And if numbers that have been posted are true, we're looking at a 20-40% increase in raw damage from /WAR WS's 60% of the time (berserk is active 3 of every 5 minutes). And finally RNG offers sudden burst TP, and arguably through accuracy will build TP faster than a comparably equipped THF/NIN or THF/WAR on an IT monster due to accuracy bonus.

--- End researcher approach ---
--- Start personal opinion ---

I am flattered you consider my reseach worthy of being stickied.

My personal opinion from my research is that WAR and RNG are the most potent subjobs for THF. And that depending on your choice of enemy, it would be wise to keep both available. For example, high evade monsters that are weak to piercing may be your best bet for Ranger sub, or if they use defense up buffs (Acid bolts dispel this.) Whereas if you are fighting something with low evasion, but high defense, WAR may be your best choice, since you can crack that hard shell and still do critical damage.

But it is also my opinion you should be free to choose how to play the game. Personally I play RDM/NIN, and carry 40 pieces of equipment so that I can cast at as close to maximum effectiveness debuffs, and melee at as close to maximum ability that I can, while maintaining all my other job abilities.

This type of number-crunching play doesn't appeal to all. But I hope this post is at least helping answer some questions people may have, but have never asked. :thumbsup:

[LunarCry]

2 things you didnt consider:

- dual wield means theres twice the chance for triple hit to trigger making it better than double hit+triple hit with /war

- using one dagger with 200 delay as /war is much slower tp gain than /nin using 200 delay dagger with say a 180 delay dagger offhand, even without any dual wield haste bonus

[Fire]

bah... summary pls to lazy to read all that ;o

[Ruic]

Originally posted by LunarCry

- dual wield means theres twice the chance for triple hit to trigger making it better than double hit+triple hit with /war

I don't follow. To my knowledge triple attack functions as a possibility of an individual physical attack. If you've seen double attack in action with dual wielded weapons, if double attack is triggered on your primary hand, you will swing twice with it, then once with the off-hand. Similarly if it triggers on the off hand, you'll swing once with your main hand, then twice in a row with the off-hand. THF/NIN will end up having 2.5 more chances to trigger a tripple attack in our hypothetical situation, not twice as many, as triple attack doesn't result in a triple attack with each hand. If triple attack can be triggered on hits that have been double atacked, then the difference in triple attack instances between /NIN and /WAR will be about less than 3% from my example.

Originally posted by LunarCry

- using one dagger with 200 delay as /war is much slower tp gain than /nin using 200 delay dagger with say a 180 delay dagger offhand, even without any dual wield haste bonus

TP is a function of delay pre-haste. This is why someone using a very large weapon gains more TP per hit than someone using a small weapon. FFXI is designed so that all classes except Samurai gain TP on an even rate over-time. However things like double attack, meditate, barrage, jump, etc, cause disruptions in this smooth TP function.

This is why the 999 delay weapons were re-tooled a few patches ago. MNKs were using WS's that gave them over 100% TP with the 999 delay knuckles, allowing them to endlessly weapon skill. This happened entirely because each hit of the WS was giving TP as if someone were connecting with 999 delay. SE had to fix this, and in the process they chose to bring the TP build curve back closer to a smooth function of delay, and not make it so WS dependent. This is what many people call the "Penta Nerf." This change was made so that roughly all jobs would gain TP and access to WS's over the same rate, as opposed to some jobs starting with a 50% bar from the use of a WS, and others starting with 5-10%.

There's absolutely no difference in TP gain per hit between /WAR and /NIN, because you're using the same weapon, with the same delay. Even if you use one heavy dagger, and one light dagger, all you are doing is applying your delay to the exact same smooth TP curve, which will correct itself to match your new combined delay. The only difference in TP gain between /WAR and /NIN is that /NIN will have a 15% haste post 50, which means more attacks which CAN be more TP, and /WAR will occasionally double attack, giving them roughly the same number of additional attacks, which CAN be more TP. The mechanics of the game suggest that if double attack is fired around ~1/9 attacks (which is very reasonable if you've ever used double attack), that the additional hits granted by Ninja sub, are provided by Warrior sub.

Delay is a constant in the TP function. What matters in building TP quickly are two things. How many attacks you can make, -despite- your weapon's delay over a period of time, and how many of those attacks will be hits?

In this simplest examination of the jobs, you have WAR and NIN offering a roughly equal number of attacks, while RNG offers a higher accuracy to land hits. Of course there are other effects from which subjob you choose, but in terms of TP and strike-per-strike examination, it boils down entirely to that.

[Mithrankittycat]

thf/drk
no, really. stun works even without having magic skill from the main job.

[LunarCry]

i was wrong in my first statement about the triple hit trigger.
but concerning delay of weapons it never made a difference to me wether using greed scimitar offhand or garuda dagger: always 5-6tp per swing. and a 176delay dagger alone gives you the exact same tp per hit as a 212delay dagger.
may be that 999delay gives more tp cause of the huge difference, i dunno.

another thing: Dancing Edge with /war: 9tp, DE with /nin: 14tp when all hits connect

[Ruic]

I believe the TP function is [Delay / (some number between 38 and 43)] = TP% gained per hit. My belief is the number is actually between 40 and 43, 40 and slightly lower values work well for smaller weapons, but the answer comes up to 42.8 on the (non-999) heaviest weapon in the delay game. (Sarnga with 120 delay arrow)

The thing is, you can gain tenths of a point of TP which are invisible to you. For example, one of my friends who uses a heavy weapon (Scythe - 528 delay) gains TP like this: 12 13 12 13 12 13 12 13 = 100. Really what he is doing is gaining ~12.5% TP per attack, but we see 12s and 13s on the bar. If you calculate 528/42.8 you come to 12.33% TP per hit, which is very close to the 12.5% we see in practice. If you slide the number down a bit, while still remaining in the 40-43 range, you will come up to 12.5 at 42.2.

That you'd see no difference in TP gain from two weapons 36 delay apart, may simply mean that they belong on the same "step" of TP gain when it comes to the TP function, or that you are not noticing the hidden decimal of TP that is being gained.

And yes, Dual Wield allows TP gain on two hits of a multi-hit WS. This was introduced in a patch recently. But only the second hit, and it doesn't take effect on all multi-hit WS's. What this boils down to for a THF though is 5 TP at max per round, and that's assuming that you land all hits of your weapon-skill every time, and that you use a multi-hit WS that is compatible with Dual Wield. But even still, the same argument comes up here about what if WAR triggers a double attack during DE thereby gaining more TP, or RNG lands more hits of DE thereby gaining more TP.

[Omena]

Originally posted by Ruic
I'm not trying to start an argument over this, but the numbers are a lot closer than most people are considering here. Ninja haste does not give a 15% -per hand- bonus, resulting in a total 30% haste, but it gives a total 15% bonus.

I heard Dual Wield II gives a 25% bonus, not 15%. Anyways, I got the 30% from another player's calculations and I haven't done any practical research myself.

[Omena]

Originally posted by Ruic


TP is a function of delay pre-haste. This is why someone using a very large weapon gains more TP per hit than someone using a small weapon. FFXI is designed so that all classes except Samurai gain TP on an even rate over-time. However things like double attack, meditate, barrage, jump, etc, cause disruptions in this smooth TP function.


Not entirely true. You forgot the 5% TP cap. No weapon can ever give less than 5% TP per hit no matter how quickly you swing.

This is THE reason to why /nin gains TP faster. You should NOT be gaining 5% per hit with the delay of a thf/nin, but you still do because of this cap.

[DelennFFXI]

Basics:

TP gained per hit is proportional to weapon delayTP is calculated after all haste/slow effects are resolved The minimum TP from a swing is 5 (the infamous 5 TP floor) Multi-hit WSes only provide 1 additional TP for successive hits (from patch) A constant amount of TP is gained from taking any physical dmg (2 I think, 0 dmg = no TP)
Ways to increase TP rate:

5 TP Floor: Attack fast enough to warrant <5 TP, but get 5 TP anyway Multi-Attack Traits: Double Attack, Triple Attack Random Speed Up Trait: Rapid Shot Multi-hit Job Ability: Barrage Misc TP Abilities: Store TP, Meditate
Haste Abilities (namely Dual Wield and Martial Arts) only increase TP rate if you hit the 5 TP floor (since TP is calculated post-haste/slow). Hence, a thf/nin with low delay daggers will gain tp faster than a war/nin dual wielding axes.

Finally, don't forget you need to hit to gain TP, so accuracy plays a large role.

I think that's it. If I missed any, feel free to share.

Hope that helps,

[Ruic]

You're right, you "should NOT" gain TP at the same rate/delay that you do with /NIN. But like I said, TP is a function of delay and # of attacks. So the bonus is, as stated a few times before, what comes out of the extra attacks over time that the haste grants. Which in the hypothetical example is ~2.5 per minute, which is about 13% TP bonus per minute if all attacks land, and is almost perfectly equal to the 15% bonus that you would assume DW2 would grant. If you were to use a much larger time frame you would find that the number of attacks, and the potential for TP would asymptote at 15% more oppurunity, exactly as you would expect from Dual Wield 2's 15% haste bonus.

There is also a hard cap on the minimum delay allowed. The fastest weapon in the game, the beestinger and/or hornet needle daggers are given a negligible, if not nil bonus from Haste, because 150 delay seems to be the lowest delay that you are allowed to attack at. This is why TP can not be less than 5%, not because game mechanics have a hard cap on TP, but because game mechanics have a hard cap on delay's minimum, so that animations do not overlap. So let's assume that this is the maximum delay achievable to reach the 5 TP floor.

I know this because I personally own the Beestinger, and even with bard haste, and Garuda Hastega (more powerful than normal WHM or RDM haste) I attack -no faster.- I use this knife to fight elementals, jellies, and other mobs that my enspell would do more damage over time to than my sword(s.) This information has also been reaffirmed by many others who have experimented with the beestinger/hornet needle and enspell + manners of haste, and some THFs who have gathered information on Triple Attack, Double Attack, and haste effects.

For Reference (All information correct as far as my research has taken me.)
Dual Wield I = 10%
Dual Wield II = 15%
Dual Wield III = 25%
Dual Wield IV = 35%
Ninja AF1 or AF2 (per piece that gives DW bonus, there are 2) = 5% each (45%)
Sarashi = 5% (50%)
Suppanomimi = 5% (55%)
(Sub DRG and use Wyvern Earring) = 5% (60%)
Haste Spell = 12.5% (At least 72.5% haste.)
Garuda Haste-ga = Formula Unknown, based on Summoning skill of SMN, but is stronger than Haste. (72.5% haste+)
Various pieces of MNK/NIN/SAM armor that gives small bits of haste, IE Monsoon armor. (80%+ haste)
Bard March songs, Victory and Advancing March (At least 10% more haste, I'd estimate probably closer to 15-20%, but I don't have much bard information.) (90%+ haste.)
Bard Soul Voices March Songs: (100%+ Haste)

That's 100% haste assuming that bard haste is weaker than it probably is, and that Garuda's haste-ga isn't much more than 12.5% haste.

We've achieve 100% haste on a Ninja, so that's permanent hundred fists, right? Wrong.

Make sure you understand that the haste formula isn't:
Delay * (100 - (Haste %/100)) = New Delay
It is
Delay * (1/(1+(Haste %/100))) = New Delay

For example

If your haste % is 50, and your combined weapon delay was 500
500 * (1 - .5) = 250
500 * (1/(1.5) = 333

If your haste % is 100, combined weapon delay was 500...
500 * (1-1) = 0
500 * (1/2) = 250

100% haste does not mean you attack with 0 delay. It means you attack with HALF delay. It is very possible to get very close to 100% haste as per my example above. The reason this system is designed like this is so that haste scales appropriately from high delay weapons, to low delay weapons. For example, compare a 1000 delay weapon to a 200 delay weapon. Using the first calculation DW 1 would take 100 points off 1000, and 20 off 200. But with the second calculation it takes ~91 of 1000, and ~18 off 200. This helps haste keep a smooth bonus, regardless of weapon.

And finally, haste has diminishing returns.
500 Delay with 10% haste = 454 delay (46 delay faster)
500 Delay with 20% haste = 416 delay (38 delay faster)
500 Delay with 30% haste = 384 delay (32 delay faster)
500 Delay with 40% haste = 357 delay (27 delay faster)
500 Delay with 50% haste = 333 delay (24 delay faster)
Similarly, 60% = 22 faster, 70% = 19 faster, 80% = 17 faster, 90% = 14 faster, 100% = 13 faster.

This means 10% haste when you have none can be a big deal (3/4ths a second), but 10% haste when you have 90% haste is pretty small. We're talking 1 sixtieth of a second.

The result is that unless you get haste over 100%, you will never attack faster than half of your weapon's speed. On top of this, you will never be able to go below 150 delay with a single weapon, and I would assume 300 delay with two weapons, BUT even if you could go below 300 with two weapons, you couldn't drop below 150, and you'd need 100% haste with a beestinger and hornet needle combination to ultimately "maximize" your attacks per second, and your TP/time, and since the only way to achieve such a ridiculous haste is through Ninja main, it is entirely nonapplicable to THF, as in reality the most haste a THF is ever going to achieve will be in the area region of 50% without soul voiced bard songs.

So how this applies to thieves is pretty straightforward.

Assuming you use two daggers with 180 delay, you need to push the delay of each dagger down 30 delay each. So you need to take 360 combined delay to 300 (or less, if it is possible to break the 150 delay hard-cap on animations). Which requires a baseline of 20% haste to reach. This haste % grows as you use heavier weapons. If you use 2 200 delay weapons, you need to push your delay down to 300, which requires 33% haste. Since Ninja Haste is 15%, you'd have to use other equipment in order to push your haste to the point where you are truly utilizing the "floor" in the game. At 30 you could use a Sarashi which would give you an additional 5% haste, which could maximize your number of -attacks- if you used 2 180 delay weapons. But this is not a guaranteed TP ratio, as you aren't accounting for accuracy. But because your delay is aggregated between your two weapons, using a heavy main dagger for damage, and a fast one for TP, will only lead to a balancd average, and would make breaking the floor more difficult. The heavier weapons you want to bring to the TP floor, the more and more haste you'll have to dump on due to the diminishing returns of haste.

Similarly if you compare /WAR, you get a higher amount of TP per hit due to not being hasted, and staying above the "floor." But double hits also give higher TP ratios, since they count above the "floor" as well.
So if we ultimately compare
20.5 Ninja Hits at 5 TP (floored) = 102.5 TP
18 WAR hits at 5-5.5 TP(unfloored) = 90-99 TP with 1-2 double attacks = 95-110 TP

(Editted for a better explanation.)

[DelennFFXI]

Ruic,

As I was trying to say, TP is proportional to post-haste delay, not pre-haste.

An easy way to test this is to use a non-mnk main/sub combo and attack with hand-to-hand. You'll get a ton of TP per hit. Once you use a mnk main/sub you'll get the benefit of Martials Arts, a "haste" ability, which will drop your TP significantly.

Furthermore, even if there is a hard cap, it's irrelevant. This is because we know the 5 TP floor is ~200 delay and that the hard cap is significantly below it (150 delay at least). Therefore, there is room to increase TP rate.

Bottomline, if you're hitting faster than 1 hit per ~200 delay (2 hits < ~400 delay) you will see the benefit of free TP, provided your accuracy is high enough to make use of it.



Aside: Calculating haste is easy, and I doubt anyone thought 100% haste = 0 delay -_-.

[Ruic]

Alright, pulled out some testing along with a DRK friend. Came to this conclusion.

DRK's TP: 12, 13, 12, 13, 12, 13, 12, 13....
DRK TP with Haste: 12, 13, 12, 13, 12, 13

My TP single hand: 6, 7, 6, 7, 6, 7, 6, 7...
My TP single hand with Haste Spell: 6, 7, 6, 7, 6, 7...
My TP Dual Wield: 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11...
My TP Dual Wield with Haste Spell: 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11...

So this goes to show that we're actually both wrong on the situation.

DW determines a new delay between two weapons, which gives it a new place on the TP curve. But haste spells, and other haste effects have absolutely no effect on TP.

This means enhancing haste gives more TP/time but equal TP/hit, while enhancing DW gives proportionately less TP/hit but equal TP/time until the floor is hit, at which point it will give more TP/time than "normal."

But I'm honestly not up to doing the multi-variable equations to figure out the point at which TP/Hit/Time while floored becomes faster TP than TP/Hit/Time while unfloored, the only reason I am still actively researching is because I have interest in Ninja itself, not Thief. :biggrin:

But you were right to correct my mistaken assumption, thank you, it helps my research out as I had not considered a MIN function belonging in the calculations. But what this also means is that haste and Dual Wield don't belong in the same function, as one is pre-operation and the other is post-operation.

To stay on topic for the benefit of thieves, if you maintain your weapons with a combined delay of less than 460(easy with daggers) with DW2, resulting in 400 delay, you will be at floor, if the floor is ~200 (40*5) and making slightly faster TP/time than any other job can offer in consistency, with a maximum of 100 delay being given extra TP per swing, and 10-12 swings a minute, it boils down to around 15-20% TP per minute more, which is higher than predicted due to the TP floor. Meaning to maintain comparable TP to a /NIN, a WAR would have to double attack 3-4 times per similar number of attacks, and /RNG would have to offer a proportional accuracy increase. This all assumes you mind the floor.

20 attacks have to land per minute to build 100% TP at 5 TP per hit. /NINs will attack 20.5 times in this minute. Warriors will attack 18 times, with the possibility of double attacks. RNGs will attack a flat 18 times. If you assume 70% accuracy for NIN, 70% accuracy for WAR, and 80% accuracy for RNG you get TP/Minute for /NIN at 71 TP/Minute, 63 TP/Minute for /WAR (not counting double attacks), and /RNG would have 72 TP/Minute.

So if you want to WS as often as you can, go /NIN or /RNG. If you want the WS's to do 20-40% more damage 3/5ths of the time, go /WAR, but you will gain TP possibly slower.

And I'm very sorry that this post has become so longwinded. But I re-emphasize the point was research, so I appreciate all the input.

[neighbortaru]

/clap
nice sleuthing there Ruic

[Rouge]

I think with capped Ninjutsu, THF/NIN could also potentially debuff the mob would they be so willing. (Since they have time to wait for other melee to get TP). They could blind, slow, poison, paralyze, and weaken the mob to whatever element the SC and MB is going to be.

Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

[Mithrankittycat]

ninjutsu skill comes from a subjob, so you'd mostly get resisted against exp-worthy monsters.

[Rouge]

Originally posted by Mithrankittycat
ninjutsu skill comes from a subjob, so you'd mostly get resisted against exp-worthy monsters.

Have you tried? I had mediocre success with level 49 ninjutsu at level 46 THF, with a possible cap of 69, I think. That's a pretty significant difference in terms of level. But I was able to land it sometimes.

[Ljarin]

My Ninjutsu skill has been capped as thf/nin for a long time and I can tell you at 75 you will have a reasonable landing rate for debuffs on EP mobs (even Amemet) but any higher and the success rate drops sharply :p

I wouldn't even waste my time trying to land debuffs on exp mobs.

[Drogen_Shomuro]

With capped ninjutsu at lvl 50, slow, blind, and paralyze have not yet landed =/

Elemental debuffs seem to land though, but usually do 0-5 dmg, and I can't really measure whether or not the elemental debuff actually sticks.

[DelennFFXI]

Thank you for testing Ruic!

Also, this explains why my partial static monk can keep up in TP with me (brown belt, +8% haste, etc).

Bottom line, haste is good :)

Also, I'll ask my monk friend to test TP per fist with and without haste gear for more confirmation.





Just to re-summarize then: (copied and pasted with haste clarification)

TP gained per hit is proportional to weapon delayTP is calculated before haste/slow effects are resolved The minimum TP from a swing is 5 (the infamous 5 TP floor) Multi-hit WSes only provide 1 additional TP for successive hits (from patch) A constant amount of TP is gained from taking any physical dmg (2 I think, 0 dmg = no TP)
Ways to increase TP rate:

5 TP Floor: Attack fast enough to warrant <5 TP, but get 5 TP anyway Multi-Attack Traits: Double Attack, Triple Attack Random Speed Up Trait: Rapid Shot Multi-hit Job Ability: Barrage Misc TP Abilities: Store TP, Meditate Haste equipment/spell: This increases the rate of attacks without decreasing the TP per hit.
Dual Wield and Martial Arts affect the weapon delay, and are not considered haste effects. Therefore, they will reduce the TP per hit up to the 5 TP floor. Hence, a thf/nin with low delay daggers will gain tp faster than a war/nin dual wielding axes.

Finally, don't forget you need to hit to gain TP, so accuracy plays a large role.

[Spider-Dan]

Regarding hastes and TP gain:

I don't believe Haste status changes your TP gain (the logical correlation would be that Slow status increases your TP per hit). Temporary effects don't change your TP per hit, but permanent effects (like Dual Wield and Martial Arts) do. This is easily proven with a 25+ NIN or 31+ MNK: with the NIN, equip one sword and note your TP return per hit, then equip another additional sword and note the change. With MNK, change your job to THF/(non-MNK-sub) and notice your TP return with 480 base delay, then change main to MNK and notice your TP return with 360 base delay.

So then, what we're really looking at with respect to TP gain per hit is the 5% floor. TP return per hit is somewhere around delay / 40-45. We'll assume it's 40 (if it's larger than that, that's actually more advantageous for /NIN).

Chicken Knife (D21/176) + Hornetneedle (D16/150) is a fairly popular combination for /NINs. Net delay per round: (176 + 150) * .85 = 277.1. Divide that by 40, and you wind up with 6.92 TP per round, or about 3.5% TP per *hit* that you should be getting. Because of the 5% TP floor, that's a 30% bonus in TP that you are getting, relative to delay. That's huge.

Additionally, Dual Wield adds an extra hit to all WSes, at normal TP generation rate (which is usually 5% for a THF). That's an additional TP advantage for /NIN.

THF/NIN is unquestionably the best choice for TP generation while exping. Whether or not that extra TP generation makes it better than /WAR is up for debate, but the facts stand as is.

[Ruic]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Regarding hastes and TP gain:
Chicken Knife (D21/176) + Hornetneedle (D16/150) is a fairly popular combination for /NINs. Net delay per round: (176 + 150) * .85 = 277.1. Divide that by 40, and you wind up with 6.92 TP per round, or about 3.5% TP per *hit* that you should be getting. Because of the 5% TP floor, that's a 30% bonus in TP that you are getting, relative to delay. That's huge.

Haste calculation isn't a 15% direct reduction as stated before. The actual delay you will get with those weapons is (326)/1.15 = 283. Or "7.075% TP per round" as you put it.

But this drops below the theoretical 300 static cap, if it exists, then a THF using a hornet needle would gain equal TP to a THF/NIN DWing this combo of weapons.

Also you're NOT looking at a 30% bonus in TP. I am sorry to repeatedly pick this argument apart, but it is simply not true. A THF/NotNIN wielding a chicken knife is already swinging a 176 delay weapon, which is BELOW the TP floor. 176/40 = 4.4. Vs our theoretical 3.5% per hand. That seems like a tremendous difference but...

While your numbers work out in theory, they fall apart in practice, simply because we're interested in a TP over time approach. And as examined over and over again, a /NIN is only going to get 2-3 more attacks, not DW hits, but single dagger hits, IE 1 to 1.5 ROUNDS of attack per minute extra. These extra attacks are made even less, if the 300 delay cap exists on dual wield using your weapons. It wouldn't matter if you were only supposed to get 1 TP per hand, but you got 5, if you only get 3 more swings a minute. Does that make sense? You'd predict a 500% boost in TP, but only see 15%.

If both THFs are at or below floor, then these 2-3 attacks can translate into -at most- 15% extra TP per fight. Which is exactly what you would expect, due to the fact that DW is granting a 15% haste bonus, and all parties involved are using TP floored weapons.

I'm beginning to think I must be crazy with how many people think that NIN is going to result in a 30%+ TP/time gain rate. Can anyone explain to me how/why we're thinking this, and give some numerical examples please? Maybe I've missed something else vitally important... If not then DW is going to grant a simple 15% bonus...

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Ruic
Haste calculation isn't a 15% direct reduction as stated before. The actual delay you will get with those weapons is (326)/1.15 = 283. Or "7.075% TP per round" as you put it.
You're working from a different set of numbers. Everything I've seen says that DW is (delay1 + delay2) *:

0.9 @LV10
0.85 @LV25
0.75 @LV45
0.65 @LV65

But this drops below the theoretical 300 static cap, if it exists, then a THF using a hornet needle would gain equal TP to a THF/NIN DWing this combo of weapons.
The problem with this is that no THF would (or should) use a Hornetneedle in their main. Using a D16 dagger as your main weapon (even at LV48) would gimp your SATA damage. Therefore, Hornetneedle is a /NIN only weapon.

And where is the solid evidence for this 150/300 delay cap? If you're going to argue against hard numbers, I think you need more than anecdotal evidence of people failing to notice any difference; you'll need numbers to back it up. You seem to have cited animation as a limitation, but the existence of a 120 delay weapon pretty much refutes that theory; when you fire a Loxley bow, your animation is quite visibly interrupted to fire it in time.

Also you're NOT looking at a 30% bonus in TP. I am sorry to repeatedly pick this argument apart, but it is simply not true. A THF/NotNIN wielding a chicken knife is already swinging a 176 delay weapon, which is BELOW the TP floor. 176/40 = 4.4. Vs our theoretical 3.5% per hand. That seems like a tremendous difference but...
You don't actually address this difference at all, ever. While it's true that /notNIN can try to equip a low delay dagger to keep up, they just can't match two low delay daggers + DW2, especially if one of those daggers is a Hornetneedle.

While your numbers work out in theory, they fall apart in practice, simply because we're interested in a TP over time approach. And as examined over and over again, a /NIN is only going to get 2-3 more attacks, not DW hits, but single dagger hits, IE 1 to 1.5 ROUNDS of attack per minute extra. These extra attacks are made even less, if the 300 delay cap exists on dual wield using your weapons. It wouldn't matter if you were only supposed to get 1 TP per hand, but you got 5, if you only get 3 more swings a minute. Does that make sense? You'd predict a 500% boost in TP, but only see 15%.
You're leaning heavily on this 300 delay cap, which you still need to prove the existence of. Your calculations also assume lots of other things; for example, you say that NIN wouldn't have non-stop Hundred Fists with 100% haste; how do you know this? (Especially considering that you need Soul Voice to pull it off...)

[Kastel]

Originally posted by Mithrankittycat
thf/drk
no, really. stun works even without having magic skill from the main job.

thf/drk is the most fun i have had with a SJ. Not only was being in stun order for gods making them more interesting, but I used souleater and my damage went from 0-10 to 50-70 x.x this was with a dagger ...

[Ruic]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
You're working from a different set of numbers. Everything I've seen says that DW is (delay1 + delay2) *:

0.9 @LV10
0.85 @LV25
0.75 @LV45
0.65 @LV65


Just about every source I've heard or read from has agreed with the (Delay)/(1+Haste%) as the haste formula, including Japanese players with guidebooks that have the game formulas down to the hundredths of decimals.


And where is the solid evidence for this 150/300 delay cap? If you're going to argue against hard numbers, I think you need more than anecdotal evidence of people failing to notice any difference; you'll need numbers to back it up. You seem to have cited animation as a limitation, but the existence of a 120 delay weapon pretty much refutes that theory; when you fire a Loxley bow, your animation is quite visibly interrupted to fire it in time.


Arrows have delay. The fastest arrow in the game, the Grand Knight's Arrow has 50 delay. 120+50 = 170 combined delay for Loxley Bow + fastest arrow, which is still slower than a beestinger or hornet needle. You're welcome to try to increase the speed of the Beestinger, I've tried it, and noticed no difference qualitatively or quantitatively. I can't test the theoretical 300 delay cap until I get a hornet needle, or until someone who can use, and owns both of those weapons attempts some trials with dual wield, haste and other hastes, while stopwatching.


You don't actually address this difference at all, ever. While it's true that /notNIN can try to equip a low delay dagger to keep up, they just can't match two low delay daggers + DW2, especially if one of those daggers is a Hornetneedle.


And you don't address a single point about any of the benefits of other jobs. But let's continue to spin the TP wheel of fortune, I'll even prove your point for you, then from your proven point, prove my own yet again.

Let's examine a situation in which we pretend there is no 300 delay cap, and let's imagine that the person is using two 150 delay daggers.
300*(1/1.15) = 260.8 frames per round.
To be fair let's say that the other person is using one 150 delay dagger, after all, we've removed any caps. So these numbers may as well be arbitrary, right? And remember that haste has diminishing returns, so using smaller numbers is going to be more drastic.
150 = 150 frames per round.
3600 frames in a minute.
3600/260.8 = 13.8 (times 2 for two weapons) = 27.6
3600/150 = 24
We have an attack difference of 3.6 attacks a minute. Which if we're being strictly mathematical, and looking at a single minute, is 3 attacks, since you can't excute 6/10ths of an attack, or 15% TP. If not we're looking at ~18% TP over our arbitrary time measurement.
Now let's assume 200 delay daggers.
3600 frames a minute
400*(1/1.15) = 347.8
3600/347.8 = 10.3 * 2 = 20.6
3600/200 = 18
A difference of 2.6 attacks a minute. It's 13% per minute more if we allow 6/10ths of an attack. At this point we're not even fully utilizing dual wield!

So between 300 and 400 pre-DW haste, we're looking at a 5% per minute difference in TP gain.

But like you said, no THF is going to use a 150 delay dagger in their main hand. They're more likely to use a heavier dagger, between 176 and 200 delay for their main weapon. Let's just say 180, for the medium range on daggers.

Single dagger: 3600/180 = 20 attacks/minute
Two, assuming one is 150 delay, the other is 180 = 330 delay = 287 delay, = 12.5 times 2 = 25.
5 attacks difference.

If a THF/NIN gives up everything else they do except TP, and SATAWS, they can maximize their TP again roughly around 330 combined delay. If you move to 350, you begin to lose attacks per minute on ratio, and if you drop to 300, you can see the bonus drop to a possible 18% in the above calculation. The best you can do is roughly add 5 more attacks per minute. Of which you must maintain an 80% accuracy per minute in order to convert 100% TP per minute, which is really nearly impossible on XP mobs without owning sniper rings, scorpion harness, lifebelt, and other massive accuracy adjusting equipment. Especially as you pass through Genkeis, and monster evasion rises exponentially. But if you want to do the differentiation and do the maximization function on delay to TP, be my guest. I would say that the best a /NIN can do is have a -potential- for ~25% more TP per battle.

I'll cede this point. I understand the point of using swapped daggers. But if you're NOT using a 150 delay dagger, then it is arguable that NIN sub loses out on nearly -everything- it has to offer. So now that that's understood, let's move on ...

So /NIN wins the TP war... assuming it has the same accuracy as /RNG and that /WAR doesn't double attack any at all. Should we really continue talking in circles here? If WAR double attacks 2-3 times in those 20 attacks, /NIN's TP gain potential is dropped to 0-15% (~0 if using 200 delay daggers, 15% if using a 150 dagger and DA only happens twice) more than WAR, while /WAR is doing 20-40% more damage. This hasn't changed at all. And /RNG is going to yield drastically improved accuracy.

Again.
25 attacks a minute with 70% accuracy = 17.5 hits = 87.5% TP

22 (say WAR sub DAs twice so 20+2) with 70% accuracy = 15.4 hits = 77% TP. (Assuming that no WS hits trigger DAs for more TP and damage.)

20 (RNG sub) with 80% accuracy = 16 hits = 80% TP... (Not even counting chances for more hits of WS landing, leading to more TP/Damage.)

(We're also assuming all three jobs use no ranged weaponry, though it is obvious which job would be more proficient here.)

And yet again, we arrive with a number close to or, in this case less than 15%, as the TP difference between /NIN, /WAR, and /RNG.

After spending pages discussing this topic though, there still hasn't been any thoughtful consideration on the fact that WAR is still going to add attacks, and do more damage, while /RNG is going to convert MANY more attacks into TP than the other two discussed subs. Instead all anyone seems to want to discuss is Ninja haste, and TP, which are only one dimension of a THF's primary purpose, and does not even pertain to secondary or tertiary job roles.

-- Begin opinion
Having seen each sub in action on THFs, I have to honestly say I have been most impressed with /RNG. 85-90% accuracy is disgusting, and comes from having some of the gear I mentioned above, along with a willingness to pay for arrows and other equipment which improve TP gain. When my THF friend hits 60, and has a 30 RNG sub, it'll be like she just swallowed two sniper ring+1s and then she'll gain barrage, which if examined over time, is around 50% every 5 minutes, or 10% more TP/minute... we're closing the gap even further here. I expect that /RNG accuracy will remain steady throughout the higher levels, while /NIN and /WAR will decrease.

I prefer having a good THF/WAR in the party second, as the extra damage can lead to some sickeningly powerful renkeis, and gives better hate control due to the high numbers.

I've nothing against /NIN personally. I simply wished to discuss things here. If you hadn't noticed, I'm sub Ninja on my RDM. Many people consider me to be extremely gimp. However understanding debuff formulas, and decreasing my resist rate has given me a cast per cast effectiveness far higher your average RDM/BLM. I nuke nearly 6-8% harder on average, and I can contribute hundreds of damage a fight with my melee for free.

But this is just my opinion, based on conjecturing and my knowledge of the game. Take it for what you will. I'll stick to unorthodox party make-ups when it pulls in high XP/hour, and is easy.
-- End opinion


You're leaning heavily on this 300 delay cap, which you still need to prove the existence of. Your calculations also assume lots of other things; for example, you say that NIN wouldn't have non-stop Hundred Fists with 100% haste; how do you know this? (Especially considering that you need Soul Voice to pull it off...)

I discarded the entire cap formula just for you, and gave you another full comprehensive analysis. Make of it what you will. You're more than welcome to go and perform your own calculations on haste and dual wield. If I ever get a hornet needle, I'll run my own tests of course. But to be honest, I don't care very much about this topic anymore. As I said in the first paragraphs of the post, I've no interest in THF. And many people seem to have taken my posts as an attack on their job/sub choice. That was not my intent. Researching and gathering information was. I feel at this point that I've gathered all useful data and considerations though, beyond the point necessary, and that this thread is going to endlessly talk itself in circles.

... So as far as I am concerned, I'm through with this thread. If you have any particular questions you'd like to direct to me, please use the PM function. :thumbsup:

I apologize if this seems rude, or if it seems I am backing out of an argument. I simply feel that the discussion has left all scope of a comprehensive analysis of the THF job and various subjobs.

Take care.
- Ruic

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Ruic
Just about every source I've heard or read from has agreed with the (Delay)/(1+Haste%) as the haste formula, including Japanese players with guidebooks that have the game formulas down to the hundredths of decimals.
I don't think the formula you are using is referencing the right thing. Those formulas deal with haste (e.g. Haste spells, +haste equipment, etc.) whereas I'm talking about Dual Wield. Although we commonly refer to DW's effect as "DW haste," it obviously is not the same as haste, if only for the fact that (as you already noted) haste does not decrease your TP return, whereas DW does.

Arrows have delay. The fastest arrow in the game, the Grand Knight's Arrow has 50 delay. 120+50 = 170 combined delay for Loxley Bow + fastest arrow, which is still slower than a beestinger or hornet needle.
Ammo delay is the delay before you can shoot again. The Loxley Bow goes from input to execution in 120 delay (1.2 seconds). Your argument was that the 150 delay cap was there to prevent animation from being cut off; the fact that Loxley Bow clearly interrupts the bowstring draw animation to fire invalidates this argument. If Squenix cared about animation being interrupted, they would not allow Loxley to fire as fast as it does.

Let's examine a situation in which we pretend there is no 300 delay cap, and let's imagine that the person is using two 150 delay daggers.
300*(1/1.15) = 260.8 frames per round.
Again, it should be 255 (300 *.85), but there are much more glaring mathematical issues in your post, which I'll get to.

150 = 150 frames per round.
3600 frames in a minute.
Absolutely, positively incorrect. There is 6000 delay in one minute. 100 delay = 1 second, real time. This is easily proven.

My NIN/RNG uses a Pirate's Gun (600 delay) with a LV22 Bullet (240 delay). I use the following macro:

/equip ring1 [RACC ring]
/equip ring2 [RACC ring]
/ra <t>
/wait 8
/equip ring1 [melee ring]
/equip ring2 [melee ring]

Now, if 60 delay = 1 second, that means that it takes 10 seconds (600 delay) for my NIN to fire the weapon, then another 4 seconds (240 delay) before I can fire again. The above macro would be totally pointless, because I would switch back to my melee rings 2 seconds before I fire. In actuality, the second ring swap comes well after I fire, right before I can fire again. This clearly shows that 100 delay = one second.

(And, BTW, FFXI runs at 30FPS, not 60.)

Now, let's make the appropriate changes to your formula (I'll even use your 260.8 figure):

6000/260.8 = 23.006 (times 2 for two weapons) = 46.01
6000/150 = 40
We have an attack difference of 6 attacks a minute.

That is 30 extra TP for the /NIN, per minute.

The rest of your calculations on this topic all refer to the flawed 3600 delay/minute formula, which is incorrect. You can update it all, if you like.

[Rones]

Absolutely, positively incorrect. There is 6000 delay in one minute. 100 delay = 1 second, real time.
Actually Ruic has it right on the mark and you going off the common misconception. Here is a lengthy discussion of it for you. (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47059&perpage=19&pagenumber=1) I'll include an excerpt from it to clear thigns up below. The 60 delay = 1second is also the commonly accepted equation by the majority of JP guide books that include most of the formulas for this game.
I was in the same group as those who believe 100 delay = 1 second. Me being the curious person I was, I decided to test it myself.

I grabbed my L15 THF, equipped an onion dagger (193 delay), and my stopwatch.

If 100 delay = 1 second, then the swing time should be 1.93 seconds.

If 60 delay = 1 second, then the swing time should be 3.216 seconds.

Obviously, a human hand and a stopwatch dealing with milliseconds = mucho human error. So, testing between two swings is kind of moronic, even with such a wide margin of error.

So, I'd simply find a mob that would survive several swings, and time from the first hit to the 10th hit, then divide the total time by 10 to get an average. Note: I'm timing from when the first and 10th hits show in the chat box. Going by animations is very unreliable.

10 swings = 32.25 seconds...

32.25/10 - 3.225 seconds per swing.

So, with human error figured in, which is this closer to, 1.93 (100 = 1sec), or 3.216 (60 = 1sec).

At this point, you cna take me at my word, or you can test it yourself. But anyone who argues that 100 delay = 1 second from hereon out, IMO, has done no testing other than perception.


And a quote from game guru Applepie:
The number is actually frames between swings.

Let's take a look at my favorite sword, Royal Guard Fleuret. It has 215 Delay. This means 215 frames are needed to be rendered between swings.

Since all FFXI motions are based on 60fps internally regardless of what fps we get in game, the actual delay (seconds) is calculated in this way.

215 [frames] / 60 [fps] = 3.58333333..... [seconds]

And just for the heck of it, another thread proving it. (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38629) :thumbsup:

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Rones
Actually Ruic has it right on the mark and you going off the common misconception.
Did you miss where I posted exactly how I proved that it's NOT 60 delay? One can do all the stopwatch testing they like, but if 60 delay is 1 second, then my macro would not work, period.

If you take a gun + bullets out for testing, you can clearly see that it is NOT 60 delay per second. I just used the following macro with the aforementioned Pirate's Gun + Bullets (600 + 240 = 840 delay):

/ra <t>
/wait 9
/ra <t>

The result: two shots in a row. If 60 delay is one second, then that's a 10 second wait to shoot, followed by a 4 second wait before you can fire again (ammo delay). My /wait 9 would attempt to /ra again before I even fired the first shot!

I'm sorry, but no amount of stopwatch testing (complete with human error and internet lag) can convince me of the 5+ second difference between what you are claiming and what actually happens in game. Do any sort of testing with guns and it will be patently obvious that 100 delay = 1 second.

[Matkun]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Did you miss where I posted exactly how I proved that it's NOT 60 delay? One can do all the stopwatch testing they like, but if 60 delay is 1 second, then my macro would not work, period.

If you take a gun + bullets out for testing, you can clearly see that it is NOT 60 delay per second. I just used the following macro with the aforementioned Pirate's Gun + Bullets (600 + 240 = 840 delay):

/ra <t>
/wait 9
/ra <t>

The result: two shots in a row. If 60 delay is one second, then that's a 10 second wait to shoot, followed by a 4 second wait before you can fire again (ammo delay). My /wait 9 would attempt to /ra again before I even fired the first shot!

I'm sorry, but no amount of stopwatch testing (complete with human error and internet lag) can convince me of the 5+ second difference between what you are claiming and what actually happens in game. Do any sort of testing with guns and it will be patently obvious that 100 delay = 1 second.

I went out and timed again, with

this macro:

/echo start
/wait 5
/echo end

I started the macro when I saw the text message of my hit. I had no lag, and with my Greatsword with 453 delay, I needed a /wait 8 inbetween hits to match up with the damage text.

By 100 delay = 1 second, /wait 5 if started after the hit, should show up after the next hit. It never did, there was always a wait of 2-3 seconds after 'end' showed up before the text message of my next hit.

With /wait 8, it matched up properly, which matches up with the 60 delay = 1 second theory.

Did the same with a stopwatch, My greatsword and Scythe both take more then 7 seconds between swings.


I also tried out your method using a /ra <t> /wait macro with my crossbow and bolts,

Delay = 288 +192 = 480. /ra <t> /wait 5 /ra <t> Did not work, but /wait 6 did.. Which does not match up with what I found out from melee weapons.

I also noticed and realized that ranged weapon attacks function very differently from melee weapon attacks. Ranged have a 'startup' delay, where you are aiming and have a delay before you deal damage or miss. Melee Weapons have a delay AFTER you deal damage or miss.



Which leads to a few possible conclusions..

1. Melee weapons have a 60 delay = 1 second ratio, Ranged have 100 delay = 1 second ratio.

2. Ranged Weapons delay is somehow spread over the aiming period/after shot waiting period..

Basically something is different about ranged weapons, because from all tests, with /waits and timers and stopwatchers, ALL Melee weapons have complied with 60 delay = 1 second.

[Spider-Dan]

Put simply, stopwatching melee autoattack is unreliable at best. Autoattack is affected by lag. (And BTW Matkun, your test of hitting the macro when you see the text in the log is even more problematic... how many times have you seen a mob die before the log reports that you hit it?)

I regularly have the occasion to play FFXI on an extremely lagged connection (laptop + cellphone modem, 4 digit ping to my ISP). When I do this, even with my Hornetneedle my autoattack rate is all over the place. Now obviously, I'm sure we all are doing these tests on high-speed connections. But the point that I'm making is that autoattack is lag dependant at the very least.

It also might be affected by any number of other factors. I know for a fact that autoattack timers are put on hold when you activate a JA, and we've all seen how you "freeze" if you are hit by a spell and you aren't moving, etc.

We can all agree from the start that stopwatching (when dealing with such miniscule portions of time) is inherently flawed. You can try to counteract it by doing a lot of autoattacking, but you have to assume that there's nothing going on that is delaying your autoattack cycle, which is unproven. Ranged attacks are a simple and easy way to clearly see that 100 delay = 1 second. They have a defined and controlled beginning and end.

[Rones]

Here's a better thread you can study. (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46660&perpage=19&pagenumber=1)
Now obviously, I'm sure we all are doing these tests on high-speed connections. But the point that I'm making is that autoattack is lag dependant at the very least.
I've found my attack rate to be unaffected by lag. I've lagged out in the middle of a solo fight and came back to find I had killed the monster and lvled up from it, meaning my character was attacking seperate from what my screen showed. It is the central server that does all the attack calculations and timing and sends back the info of what should be displayed on your screen. Sometimes the message of what to display can get lagged, but its still running on time for the server. This means one attack might get delay slightly and the next attack will come sooner (visually speaking). The best example I've seen of this was a fight where my R went to 0 for 20 seconds, suddenly it sprang back to life and saw the previous 20 seconds play out in about 3 seconds on my screen and was quite impresive (made mnk 2hour look slow). :sweat:

The conclusion of what I'm getting at is timing 50 swings against a too weak mob with a low dmg weapon and no one casting on you without noticiable lag will bring much more accurate results than you are giving it credit for. Some of the swings visually might get lagged on occasion, but over the course of the fight it will come out very close to the calculatable time.

Here is an excerpt from Applepie's Thread which calculates out his number of swings and it matches his video (which is a blast to watch) along with matching his parser.
Let's think of how many times we can hit them for 10 minutes.

Suppose we have Temple Knights Army Sword (Delay: 240).

No Haste
[60(fps) * 60(secs) * 10(mins)] / 240 = 150
- 150 times

With Haste
[60(fps) * 60(secs) * 10(mins) * 12.5%] / 240 = 168
- 168 times

With Haste and Wyvern Earring
[60(fps) * 60(secs) * 10(mins) * 17.5%] / 240 = 176.25
- 176 times

[Rones]

I got bored yesterday and found a nice too weak elemental to experiment on. I pulled out my 400 delay staff and began auto attacking. I cast no spells during the fight. After the 2nd attack I started my timer for 2 min and counted the number of attacks.
If 100delay = 1 sec, I should be able to get an attack every 4 seconds. So 120 sec/4 = 30 swings with my staff.
If 60 delay = 1 sec, it would be 400/60 = 6.67, meaning one attack every 6.67 seconds. So 120/6.67= 18 attacks. That's a difference of 12 swings between the 2 formulas.

Well, when my timer beeped after 2 min I had performed 17 attacks (18th was about to go). There was no detectable lag during that and no cures cast on me to slow down my attacks. There is no way I could be short 13 attacks unless the 100delay = 1 sec formula is wrong. Don't believe me? Go try it with any weapon besides your gun. This whole discussion was about melee weapons rather than ranged, so you should experiement with melee weapons.

Edit: Spelling

[Huck]

Originally posted by Omena
Wrong. Triple and double attack can not trigger on each other. If both trigger on the same swing, triple takes priority and no doulbe attack occurs. It is not possible to get triple or double trigger on hits given by triple or double either.

Acutually-No. Triple and Double attack CAN trigger each other. I've had it happen, I've seen it happen with other thf/wars. Double seems to go off about 1/6, and Triple is maybe 1/8. It's not one solid 6 hits, It's like this.
Let's say this is an attack X, You have Double attack X X, and Triple Attack X X X.
Ocassionaly you will see this happen X XX X, or XXX X, it's not a XXXXXX, so I guess you're part right. When triple attacks happen, It's less likely than 1/6 of the hits will double, It's like 1/40+. But it CAN happen. And it CAN happen more than once. Like this XX X XX, or XXX XXX. And each of those hits that happen off of that can trigger a double or triple respecftully. XXxx X X. It happens.


Originaly posted by Omena
With 200 delay daggers the TP gain bonus is around 30% and obviously it is even better with even faster daggers. I don't know why you are calling that "marginal". Getting 100% TP in 60 seconds is pretty good in my opinion. With some luck I can use WS in several fuidamas in a row. [/B]
With ~200 daggers it would be 25% TP bonus, You get 10% at 20, +15% at 50. This is true, this looks like 50+ thf/nin gets a lot more tp than 50+ thf/war.. except, for Double Attack. Double attack is quite possibly better than berserk. Double attack -> TP Machine, I gain TP faster as thf/war than thf/sam or thf/nin. (I've got them all to experiment, how about you?)
Most of the time as thf/war I can get 100%+ TP in about 45~50 seconds. As a thf/nin, you say you are "lucky to use serveral WS fuidamas in a row"? How is that 30% faster TP? If thf/nin gets such great TP compared to thf/war, How can 100% TP in 60 seconds be "pretty good".

[Huck]

Can someone Sticky this, and Un-sticky that worthless "thf sub guide"?

[guyincorporated]

Originally posted by Huck
Can someone Sticky this, and Un-sticky that worthless "thf sub guide"?

Seconded.

[Omena]

Originally posted by Huck
Acutually-No. Triple and Double attack CAN trigger each other. I've had it happen, I've seen it happen with other thf/wars. Double seems to go off about 1/6, and Triple is maybe 1/8. It's not one solid 6 hits, It's like this.
Let's say this is an attack X, You have Double attack X X, and Triple Attack X X X.
Ocassionaly you will see this happen X XX X, or XXX X, it's not a XXXXXX, so I guess you're part right. When triple attacks happen, It's less likely than 1/6 of the hits will double, It's like 1/40+. But it CAN happen. And it CAN happen more than once. Like this XX X XX, or XXX XXX. And each of those hits that happen off of that can trigger a double or triple respecftully. XXxx X X. It happens.


That is not possible. If it was, it would be possible to swing an endless ammount of swings during a single attack round. The most you can do in one round is 6 with dual wielding and triple on both swings.

Originally posted by Huck


With ~200 daggers it would be 25% TP bonus, You get 10% at 20, +15% at 50. This is true, this looks like 50+ thf/nin gets a lot more tp than 50+ thf/war.. except, for Double Attack. Double attack is quite possibly better than berserk. Double attack -> TP Machine, I gain TP faster as thf/war than thf/sam or thf/nin. (I've got them all to experiment, how about you?)
Most of the time as thf/war I can get 100%+ TP in about 45~50 seconds. As a thf/nin, you say you are "lucky to use serveral WS fuidamas in a row"? How is that 30% faster TP? If thf/nin gets such great TP compared to thf/war, How can 100% TP in 60 seconds be "pretty good".


Double Attack does help, but I don't think it helps as much as Dual Wield. You can also use an accuracy increasing dagger in your off-hand for more hits. And with 100% TP in 60 seconds I meant: Ready to WS as soon as fuidama is ready. Usually you won't be fightting the whole 60 seconds between fuidamas because you trigger fuidama before you pull and the fight ends before fuidama becomes availible for the third time.

[Huck]

Originally posted by Omena
That is not possible. If it was, it would be possible to swing an endless ammount of swings during a single attack round. The most you can do in one round is 6 with dual wielding and triple on both swings.
Right, Because one round 6 hits is the most you can do with thf/nin. However, It is possible with thf/war, to potentially attack an infinite number of times in one swing.

Originally posted by Omena
Double Attack does help, but I don't think it helps as much as Dual Wield. You can also use an accuracy increasing dagger in your off-hand for more hits. And with 100% TP in 60 seconds I meant: Ready to WS as soon as fuidama is ready. Usually you won't be fightting the whole 60 seconds between fuidamas because you trigger fuidama before you pull and the fight ends before fuidama becomes availible for the third time.

If you look at the stats that Ruic posted earlier, he showed that Double attack in terms of hits-tp%/minute, is actually better.
I'm not saying dual wield dosn't get you TP, dual wield with fast daggers gains you TP just about the same as thf/war. They both will out TP gain thf/sam. My main goal here is to have people stop saying "thf/war dosn't get you TP" when in fact it's the same//slightly better than thf/nin. What it comes down to, is which subjob does more for your damage.

[Omena]

Originally posted by Huck
Right, Because one round 6 hits is the most you can do with thf/nin. However, It is possible with thf/war, to potentially attack an infinite number of times in one swing.



Can someone please confirm this? I'm sure I would have heard stories of a thief gaining 100% TP in one attack round if this was actually possible.

[Voila!]

I'm assuming as a War/Thf you'd use a shield. There aren't that many useful shields, and you can't even use the Lantern Shield which is a complete blow. I could see subbing Ninja just to give that other hand something to do.

[Huck]

I use a Viking Shield, +12 atk.
I think that beats just about any off-hand dagger you can equip.

[Mithrankittycat]

daylight dagger accuracy+12 during daytime... ;3

[John Doe III]

Originally posted by Huck
Can someone Sticky this, and Un-sticky that worthless "thf sub guide"?

Other topic is better. Everyone in here is just rambling on and the topic creater at least updates his topic in the other sub job guide.

[ibroyles]

Originally posted by Omena
Can someone please confirm this? I'm sure I would have heard stories of a thief gaining 100% TP in one attack round if this was actually possible.

I don't think this is possible from a programming point of view. If it was possible for double/triple to stack on top of each other it would probably cause a memory overflow from all the recursive calls and crash the game. You must always have some base case where the 2A/3A's stop happening. In this particular case I think when a 3A or 2A triggers it will not check for another, to avoid all that recursive hassle.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Huck
I use a Viking Shield, +12 atk.
I think that beats just about any off-hand dagger you can equip.
Who says that dagger is the best offhand option?

Kraken Club.
Ridill.

If you are going to compare best possible offhand equipment, THF/NIN wins in a landslide.

And ironically, I've seen more THFs wielding Kraken Club in offhand (1) than THFs using Viking Shield (0).

P.S. Hornetneedle > Viking Shield

[Prefect]

The /wait command doesn't actually match up with real world seconds either, at least at high values. I've noticed this from discussions about area wait times for chocobo digging being different depend if you go by real elasped seconds or by /wait.

For example, if you have a macro like:

/clock on
/wait 45
/clock on

The two times displayed by the /clock commands will be about 50 second apart, not 45. This could partially explain the weirding going on with the /wait in the ranged attack macro.

[Tokitoki]

The time difference is because of server lag and latency.

[Novac]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Who says that dagger is the best offhand option?

Kraken Club.
Ridill.

If you are going to compare best possible offhand equipment, THF/NIN wins in a landslide.

And ironically, I've seen more THFs wielding Kraken Club in offhand (1) than THFs using Viking Shield (0).

P.S. Hornetneedle > Viking Shield

I'll sub nin in exp pt when I actually get myself a kraken club.

And before I get it, I'll use my viking shield.

And before I get myself a kraken or Ridill, subbing nin is quite gimp for exp pt.

P.S. Meditate + store TP +viking shield > hornet needle. Also, /sam doesn't let you hit for gimp damage on the 2nd swing with that laughable hornet needle's damage of 16.

Oh wait, /nin have utsu. Sam has Third Eye. That means /nin has..... ONE LAST ADVANTAGE of dodging two more hits. Oh, right, utsu absorbs ancient magic. OMG! What should I do!! The nin/pld tank sucks so hard I got killed by ancient!! Yes, ThundergaIII WILL go through all those shadows.

I'll gladly trade more TP + more ATK over two hits from pulling.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Novac
I'll sub nin in exp pt when I actually get myself a kraken club.

And before I get it, I'll use my viking shield.

And before I get myself a kraken or Ridill, subbing nin is quite gimp for exp pt.

P.S. Meditate + store TP +viking shield > hornet needle. Also, /sam doesn't let you hit for gimp damage on the 2nd swing with that laughable hornet needle's damage of 16.
You probably imagined that you were throwing out flamebait here, and a month ago, you likely would have been. But with the introduction of Assassin, I actually think /SAM is potentially very good anyway.

As far as your Hornetneedle comments go, are we really going to compare melee hits between one dagger with miniscule base DMG and another dagger with slightly less miniscule (but still pathetic) base DMG? Even if you compare a puny D16 Hornetneedle to a "beefy, hard-hitting" Cermet Kukri (D22!), everyone else is still laughing at our tiny melee pinpricks.

This is the equivalent of blades of grass arguing about which one is taller, in the middle of a forest.

[ZQM]

Here's a post I made on a forum awhile ago, figured I'd share it in this thread aswell. :o


(All stats are 49 Hume THF will fully leveled sub (arg, I wish I was still 50 for this. Being @1k because of death sucks ~_~) and capped dagger)

NIN adds more DEX and AGI.
All stats are base, no modifiers.
/NIN:
STR-44
DEX-55
AGI-51
ATK-180

/WAR:
STR-46
DEX-54
AGI-50
ATK-181

Ok, so NIN does add 1 more DEX and AGI. However, talk to some high level THFs and ask just how much more important DEX and AGI are then STR and ATK. This added DEX and AGI will add too little to even bring up (along with added STR and ATK from WAR sub).

However, WAR adds berserk. This adds 25% mor ATK, raising ATK to 226 (45 more). The % gained of DEX and AGI are about 2%. 45 is a large number, and the best part about it is that it will continue to grow as you level (The higher daggers skill along with +ATK equipment, Warcy, and the job trait will incrase how much the % adds). Also, once you add in equipment modifers, the +1 DEX AND AGI become less and less of an added a precent, where as the +ATK will stay at 25%.

Speaking of the trait (gained at 60/30), it's also a large amount. +30 I believe? I can't test this, so somebody please correct me.

And then Warcry. Another good ~20 ATK.

So when it comes down to stat bonuses, /WAR > /NIN.

[Edit]A poster added their own STR, DEX, and AGI in the thread that I originally posted this in. Lv68 Mithra:

/WAR
STR:57
DEX:76
AGI:70

/NIN
STR:55
DEX:77
AGI:71

/NIN has better sub-job dependant equip

The +4 AGI Earring is obviously better then the +2 VIT Earring you get from /WAR, however that's only 1 more AGI then drones.

The only other piece of equipment worth mentioning is Sarashi. However, after talking to people who have used it, it is not worth getting. It's estimated to only add 1% more haste, so Life Belt (+10 ACC) will actually be more beniftial to normal melee attacks.

So /NIN > /WAR, by 1 agi. :p

You can off-hand a weapon, allowing for better modifiyers

Off-handing is great. Crossair Knife (+10 ATK), Lust Dagger (+7 AGI), and Hornet's Needle (TP gain, I will not address this here but later in this post) are the general off-hand weapons I see. What most people forget though, is that you can offhand a shield as well.

Viking Shield (+12 ATK) is obviously going to be a better stat modifer then Crossair Knife (the general weapon I see at early levels). Lust dagger adds a good amount of AGI, but also has -1 STR and DEX. For those reasons, I hardly ever see a Lust Dagger being used.

So when it comes to the off-hand for stat modifications (NOT TP gain), /WAR > /NIN.

NIN gives an extra hit in WS
Ah yes, one of my favorite parts of /NIN as WAR. And the main way a THF does damage is from WS.

However, pre-60 with Viper Bite, it only does about 20 damage on a normal hit. Since SATA only effects the first hit, it only adds ~20 damage to WS damage. Berserk alone will surpass that.

Post-60, I can't say as a fact. However, with trick attack only (SC starter missed or couldn't get hate off of me), it was doing about ~300 damage on the Manticores in Terrigan. 300/6 = 50 (6 because it's a 5 fold attack and 1 added attack form /NIN). Again, Berserk alone can easly surpass that.

Sharkbite I've never seen without Sneak Attack. I wouldn't imagine much more then 50 though.

So for WS damage, do to the weakness of THF WSs without SATA, /WAR > /NIN

Utsusemi

Utsusemi is for 3 things.
1) Tanking
2) Safety when pulling hate off of tank
3) Pulling.

1 is void, 2 becomes void post 30, so that leaves 3.

Most mobs aren't fast enough to justify this. On Raptors and the likes, this is basically needed unless you want to waste a lot of MP every pull. Not that many fast mobs, though.

And one thing to remember is THFs have highest evasion in game. ;)

/NIN gives better TP gain
This is under the assumption 60 Delay = 1 second, which I find to be true.

This is also under the assumption that the smallest amount of TP you can get is 5%, and every dagger gives this amount.

After doing an average of the highest DMG weapons of Corsair's Knife up (excluding Harpes), the average delay is 202.

If you want the source (too lazy to look up names and levels, DMG DLY)
21 209
23 194
24 206
26 201

202/60 = An attack rougly every 3.3 seconds.
Attacks needed to gain 100% TP: 20
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 66 seconds.

With dual 202 delay weapon and DW2
(202 + 202)/1.15 = 351
351/60 = An attack rougly every 5.85 seconds
Attacks needed to gain 100% TP: 10
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 58.5 seconds

With 202 delay weapon and 150 delay hornets needle and DW2
(202 + 150)/1.15 = 306
306/60 = An attack rougly every 5.1 seconds
Attacks needed to gain 100% TP: 10
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 51 second

So yes, with base stats, /NIN does have faster TP gain. Now lets add modifactions. These would be the spell and Double Attack, the only mods I see in EXP PTs.

Spell adds 20% haste.

/WAR
202-(202*.2)=162
162/60 = An attack rougly ever 2.7 seconds
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 54 seconds

Dual 202
351-(351*.2)=281
281/60 = An attack rougly every 4.5 seconds
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 45 seconds

Hornets
306-(306*.2)=245
245/60 = An attack rougly every 4 seconds
Attacks needed to gain 100% TP: 10
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 40 second

Now to add in Double Attack.
Reading research on it, it goes off 10-12% (which sounds accurate to me). This will reduce the number of attack rounds needed to 18 from 20 (20*.1=2, 20-2=18)

Without haste
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 59 seconds.

With haste
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 48.5 seconds.

As you can see, these numbers are HARDLY behind dual wieldling 202 weapons. Hornets needle still has quite a bit of lead though (about 8 seconds in both).

Thinks to remember:
-This is with 100% ACC, which obviously isn't in game. ACC is about 1) Equip and 2) Luck.
-DA isn't guarenteed to go off 10% of the time. It can go off more or less.
-Lower delay of dual wield gives more oppertunities to get a tripple attack. I hardly ever seen THFs get a tripple attack (couple times an hour), though admitidly I don't pay that much attention.





SJ = /WAR for me. :)

As far as off-handing Kraken and Ridill....not only is the likelyhood of getting these items being extremely slim, but a thing to remember is mob TP. Ridill doesn't give that much, but a Kraken does. Most mobs have dangerous specials or AOEs, and you wouldn't want them to spam it.

That is, ofcoarse, if you can even hit often with it.

[Unholy Prince]

As always, great work Nny, I was leaning towards /war when i began exping my THF as well, these numbers only confirm the ideas I had already believed and known. Thank you

[Novac]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
You probably imagined that you were throwing out flamebait here, and a month ago, you likely would have been. But with the introduction of Assassin, I actually think /SAM is potentially very good anyway.

As far as your Hornetneedle comments go, are we really going to compare melee hits between one dagger with miniscule base DMG and another dagger with slightly less miniscule (but still pathetic) base DMG? Even if you compare a puny D16 Hornetneedle to a "beefy, hard-hitting" Cermet Kukri (D22!), everyone else is still laughing at our tiny melee pinpricks.

This is the equivalent of blades of grass arguing about which one is taller, in the middle of a forest.

No wonder your damage sucks, you buy normal quality daggers.

Sorry friend, I buy Cermet Kukri +1 (D23!).

Time to farm and get some good gear.

Flamebait, sure. Because people have ego and won't admit they're wrong. Having an ego is not a problem when you're right; it's a problem when you're wrong.

In your sense, you're wrong and you have ego.

You have yet to argue why /nin is better than /sam other than two more dodged hits from utsu.

The reason I don't go /sam instead of /war? Because more than not, I am waiting for TP to SC from the rest of the PT (acc +40). At level 64, I get more TP than I need. Meditate for Sam MAIN is for skill chaining TWO times per fight normally. So for me, /sam is great TP gain, but TOO overdone and I miss out on pure damage from Berserk and +10 atk.

[neighbortaru]

OMGZ!!!111onesonesones you do 1 more damage now! :eek:

[Novac]

Originally posted by neighbortaru
OMGZ!!!111onesonesones you do 1 more damage now! :eek:


OMG!!!1eleven, someone tell this n00b +1 DAM on weapon is more than +1 damage on mobs! :eek:

[neighbortaru]

lol. what, in your infinite l33tness, makes you think that I don't know that.

I just found it funny that you decided to use +1 daggers as a defense in your arguement against Dan for low melee damage (when all daggers have low base damage compared to other melee weapons).

The way you worded your posts, it seemed like you think having a +1 dagger suddenly makes your damage uber. Um, it doesn't.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Novac
No wonder your damage sucks, you buy normal quality daggers.

Sorry friend, I buy Cermet Kukri +1 (D23!).
"Hey blade of grass #2, you underestimated my height by 0.3 millimeters! I am actually 3.58 centimeters tall, NOT 3.55! Suck it!"

Note to poster: D23 is still pathetically minute. I only chose NQ Cermet Kukri because in another thread, you said you used Cermet Kukri (not +1), and I figured I'd take you at your word.

You have yet to argue why /nin is better than /sam other than two more dodged hits from utsu.
I'm sorry, didn't I just say that post-Assassin patch, /SAM is good?

If you want me to explain why /SAM sucked pre-Assassin, that's easy. You can only SC once per minute, so Meditate is basically useless.

As far as 3rd Eye... please. 3rd Eye makes virtually no difference. Utsusemi stops magic and ranged, 3rd Eye does not. If the mob is close enough to actually take down your 3rd Eye "shadow," then you might as well be /WAR.

Finally, you seem to think that I have some sort of problem with /WAR. I think both /NIN and /WAR are good, and post-60, I think /SAM and /RNG are good also. (Since you brag so much about your 40 ACC, the extra 22 ACC that /RNG gets natively should certainly be of value).

[Spider-Dan]

Can't directly quote ZQM's post, so I'll just state my responses.

Regarding subjob stats/traits/abilities:
I doubt you can find many THFs that would take 2 STR over 1 DEX + 1 AGI on a permanent basis. DEX + AGI will make a bigger difference on SATA than STR, point for point.

I believe the first Attack Up trait for all jobs is ATK+10, not 30.

And since you later mention mob TP gain as a significant enough factor not to use Kraken Club, then I must point out that /NIN generates less mob TP per hit with Subtle Blow than /WAR.

Regarding offhand weapons:
There are obviously many more options for a /NIN than just HN or Lust Dagger.

ACC+5, ATK+5 from Bone Knife +1
AGI+3, ATK+7 from Garuda's Dagger
ACC+12! (daytime only) from Daylight Dagger

Furthermore, with the introduction of the higher-delay Harpes, TP gain from offhand is more of a factor. If you are single-wielding a 210 or 215 delay dagger, your TP gain will be affected.

Finally, /NIN has the option of wielding a club in main and a dagger in offhand, so as to be able to fight bones and still get decent TP gain. Like raptors, it's another situation where /NIN simply has more leveling options than the rest.

As far as off-handing Kraken and Ridill....not only is the likelyhood of getting these items being extremely slim, but a thing to remember is mob TP. Ridill doesn't give that much, but a Kraken does. Most mobs have dangerous specials or AOEs, and you wouldn't want them to spam it.
This argument is flawed. In order to get to 100% TP, I need to hit the mob x number of times. In the process of hitting the mob x number of times, I will generate (x *[my TP+3]) TP for the mob (excluding Subtle Blow, for the moment). Whether it takes me 30 seconds or 3 minutes to generate 100% TP, I will have generated the same TP for the mob.

Therefore, if the mob is able to spam specials because of AOE, I would also be able to spam WS. Now, provided that you have a SC partner that can keep up with you, relative mob TP is not changed. The entire fight is simply accelerated. The mob is gaining TP faster, but you're also using more WSes.

Furthermore, early in a fight (when mobs do not use specials at exactly 100% TP) Kraken Club can only be a benefit.

[guyincorporated]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Note to poster: D23 is still pathetically minute. I only chose NQ Cermet Kukri because in another thread, you said you used Cermet Kukri (not +1), and I figured I'd take you at your word.

...

(Since you brag so much about your 40 ACC, the extra 22 ACC that /RNG gets natively should certainly be of value).

1. I notice a pretty hefty damage jump from my (all-too-rare) damage bumps on new daggers, so I don't think another point of damage is anything to scoff at.

2. I've seen you quoting the "+10/+22 accuracy bonus from ranger" statistic for months now. I'm still waiting for some (any?) evidence to support those figures.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by guyincorporated
1. I notice a pretty hefty damage jump from my (all-too-rare) damage bumps on new daggers, so I don't think another point of damage is anything to scoff at.
Are you talking about a damage boost with SATA, or from normal meleeing? Offhand dagger D won't affect SATA at all, so the low D of a HN isn't relevant.

2. I've seen you quoting the "+10/+22 accuracy bonus from ranger" statistic for months now. I'm still waiting for some (any?) evidence to support those figures.
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=413546&highlight=#post413546

[Ixaera]

+22 acc of /rng is down to +17 if you offhand a bone knife +1.

As far as normal SATA goes, rng does nothing for that, anyway, and it's well-known that dual wield adds the offhand weapon hit to the attack, raising its damage based on offhand weapon's D and skill.

(+10/+22 acc/racc from /rng is pretty widely accepted, actually...)

Truly, the use of /rng is barrage tp (which is iffy 60+ due to hit rate with C+ weapons, +22 racc or not), status bolts (see last parenthetical remark), widescan + track (iffy usage in exp since you can't tell what's claimed, but yes, useful). The +acc is *nice* but...I don't even wear *that* much +acc and don't really have trouble on most exp mobs. That extra +22 would only come in handy enough against really high IT, IMO.

If racc equip sans sharpshot doesn't get you a 1/3 hit/proc rate....you should probably leave the rng sub in your MH. Sharpshot is a short-lived, 5-min ability that could only be used twice per chain, if that. You'd need a very decent hit rate with xbow to justify the severe lack of delay bonuses, multi-hits, berserk, offhand stats, warcry later...

Rng has some very interesting capacities for small hunting parties targetting VT and lower, seriously, and shouldn't be underestimated. But I've yet to see it really shine after 60. Stuff just gets too hard to hit with a bolt, even with all those boosts.

In short, with rng sub you gain:
-sharpshot
- 22 acc/racc
-barrage
-widescan

you lose:
offhand dagger stats
blink
15% better delay
OR
double attack
berserk
warcry

I dunno. Seriously, if you can land 1/3 bolt procs, it's worth considering. It's a very fine subjob from 1-50, for sure. I'm just not sold on its higher level capability. I can see it helping out a party easily...but given that a thf/rng would likely put out less damage than a thf/nin, which puts still less out than thf/war...one must consider whether the party setup would benefit more by increased damage from *you* or increased damage from *others*. I.e. if you're in a mage-heavy party, I don't see acids being worth the loss, AND if you're #1 or #2 in the party for damage dealing, I would certainly pick another sub for the time being.

[guyincorporated]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Are you talking about a damage boost with SATA, or from normal meleeing? Offhand dagger D won't affect SATA at all, so the low D of a HN isn't relevant.


http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=413546&highlight=#post413546

I was talking about a damage boost with sata when your main-hand dagger gets a damage bump.

And secondly, thanks for the link. One of these days I need to just read every post Apple Pie has ever made =)

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Ixaera
As far as normal SATA goes, rng does nothing for that, anyway, and it's well-known that dual wield adds the offhand weapon hit to the attack, raising its damage based on offhand weapon's D and skill.
In the case of normal SATA, while SATA does guarantee the offhand attack (which is presumably still under the effect of TA, even though the mob has turned by the time you strike), that's an attack that wouldn't even be there if you were single wielding. In other words, with regard to the point I was addressing (low D of offhand weapon), it's not really relevant, since any single-wield THF would only be wielding one weapon to begin with.

Furthermore, the offhand hit (while guaranteed) gets no damage bonus at all, so either way, we're right back to comparing the tiny damage output of a normal melee attack from one dagger to the slightly less tiny damage output of a normal melee attack from another dagger.

[Ixaera]

That was a mis-wording on my part. By attack, I *meant* weaponskill attack. -.- Sorry about that. But about that: I lean towards believing the offhand weapon hit *does* get the ws damage modifier. Why?

Fighting a mob that was ep one level ago with hoplites harpe + garuda's dagger. Full hit DE (no sata or anything, was just fighting crap) did a range of 480-650. Deciding after an hour that the delay wasn't that much better and my sword seemed to do better anyway, I switched back. My full hit DE's started ranging from 570-750. Now, my normal sword hit on said mob was averaging 45. That is not a 45 damage difference, I'm sorry to tell you. I wish I had screen shots and detailed records, but alas. Seriously, just go farm as /nin with a few different damage weapons and see what you end up with. (This is also the reason I don't offhand a hornetneedle unless it's necessary for some reason...I stick to higher D offhand daggers with semi-decent delay/stats.)

Besides that, Dual Wield II is -15% delay. It doesn't seem significant just by looking at a 210+183=393 -15% = 334...it's when you do the tp per minute calculations that the advantage appears. -15% delay or double attack is many times the difference between having 147% tp when you ready sharkbite (thus missing the 150% modifier) and 165% (thus receiving it).

Also, on ws -- thf/any has a chance of triple attacking first hit in multi-hitters like DE and SB. (Unless this changed with last patch, which is possible since I haven't multi-hitted since then on a ws!) thf/war has an extra chance of getting a multi-strike JT proc on first hit of ws. That's hardly a small bonus.

Anyway, I've made multiple posts on my opinion of thf/rng post-60. I won't bother to restate myself on that. I've already said where I think its strengths are -- but this, IMO, is one of its weaknesses. Where both thf/nin and thf/war get bonuses to ws -- rng only gets +acc...which is nice, but nothing good gear can't cover.

Edit: stray apostrophe -.-

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Ixaera
That was a mis-wording on my part. By attack, I *meant* weaponskill attack. -.- Sorry about that. But about that: I lean towards believing the offhand weapon hit *does* get the ws damage modifier.
I don't necessarily disagree with that. Still, there's no point in disparaging /NIN for offhanding HN (as Novac was) because that extra offhand hit is better than nothing, which is what the other THF subs get.

I suppose the rest of your post is just your case against /RNG, which I wasn't really arguing for to begin with, but I'll respond as well as I can.

Besides that, Dual Wield II is -15% delay. It doesn't seem significant just by looking at a 210+183=393 -15% = 334...it's when you do the tp per minute calculations that the advantage appears. -15% delay or double attack is many times the difference between having 147% tp when you ready sharkbite (thus missing the 150% modifier) and 165% (thus receiving it).
Extra accuracy = more TP generated. Unless you can definitively prove which one is more effective in generating TP, this could go either way.

Also, on ws -- thf/any has a chance of triple attacking first hit in multi-hitters like DE and SB. (Unless this changed with last patch, which is possible since I haven't multi-hitted since then on a ws!) thf/war has an extra chance of getting a multi-strike JT proc on first hit of ws. That's hardly a small bonus.
Still, with the extra accuracy from /RNG, you're more likely to land the hits you already get by default, so unless you land all your hits every time already, we can't say what difference /RNG will make.

Where both thf/nin and thf/war get bonuses to ws -- rng only gets +acc...which is nice, but nothing good gear can't cover.
As I understand it, many THFs elect to keep Life Belt and Snipers equipped during SATADE because landing as many hits as you can makes that much difference.

/RNG would allow your SATADE to have better accuracy than another THF wearing dual Snipers and a Life Belt, at the same time you're wearing +DEX Rings and an RK belt.

When it comes to DE, I'm not so sure that /RNG is at a disadvantage.

[Ljarin]

Don't forget items like the Dual Wield earring that further increase the DW delay bonus so it's more effective than the base DW2 that a thf/nin would have meaning more tp etc etc

[Ixaera]

Perhaps, Spider. I'll say no more, really, because I don't have the motivation to level up rng just to test it out nor do I know anyone who subs it at my level on Bismarck to go watch.

And I very rarely offhand hornetneedle as /nin, because I think the damage is too crappy to justify the speed. I tend to prefer garuda's for better stats and damage while still sporting a reasonable delay.

I will add my two cents that different subs have different uses and a thf who is subbing one thing all the time shines in some cases, but is gimped in others.

I suppose the rest of your post is just your case against /RNG, which I wasn't really arguing for to begin with, but I'll respond as well as I can.

Ah, sorry. I suppose somewhere in this tangle of a discussion there is some indication of what the argument was for. I must have missed it. 5 pages of thread > my reading attention span.

[John Doe III]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
/RNG would allow your SATADE to have better accuracy than another THF wearing dual Snipers and a Life Belt, at the same time you're wearing +DEX Rings and an RK belt.

When it comes to DE, I'm not so sure that /RNG is at a disadvantage.

But +acc is only once every five minutes so......say 3 DE's every 5 minutes =\ Not a very productive thief. Inless of course you have the money and switch to snipers when you can't use +acc.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by John Doe III
But +acc is only once every five minutes so......say 3 DE's every 5 minutes =\ Not a very productive thief. Inless of course you have the money and switch to snipers when you can't use +acc.
WTH are you talking about? +ACC every five minutes?

[ClydeArrowny]

As I understand it, many THFs elect to keep Life Belt and Snipers equipped during SATADE because landing as many hits as you can makes that much difference.

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But +acc is only once every five minutes so......say 3 DE's every 5 minutes =\ Not a very productive thief. Inless of course you have the money and switch to snipers when you can't use +acc.
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