Yesterday I lost the urge to level RDM after getting it to 24.. and already getting WHM and BLM to 37 with all spells including Erase. I also already bought all my RDM gear in advance.. Serket Ring.. Cloak.. the works and yesterday I had a brainstorm and it came to my attention that there is way to many RDMs and if I want a solo mage job I can just use NIN/WHM so I decided switch to ranger.

After I sell all my crap from RDM I will roughy have 4-5mil which is what E-bow is worth on our server now (Anyidea why the price went from 2 to 5 mil ><).

I noticed War Bow+1 has near similar stats to E-bow and most rangers use Othinus' Bow (xbow) 67+.

Is E-bow truely worth the investment or just use War Bow+1 till Othinus?

How much difference is there in damage between War Bow+1 and E-Bow?

Normally I would just buy the E-bow without asking this but since ranger is expensive to level maybe i should save a couple mil so I dont have to farm :confused:

Short Answer: No.

Not so short Answer:The bow's "better than War Bow+1" good but it's not"spend 5 million gil and you still have to farm for supplies" good. It's arguably the best bow in the game.If you don't get it though don't worry. Besides if you want to do the most damage Muskateer Gun +1 and Silver Bullets are better anyway.

If you already have the gil for it there's no reason not to buy it, since you can always sell it back for (probably) no loss later on anyway.

Kinda got to go with Deo here, cash flow obviously isn't a problem for you stanislav, I'd say get it.

Oh, and the price is a function of demand. E-bow has done that on most servers from what I've read lately, It'll probably go down eventually, as all of those rangers get towards the 70's. Got with whatever you can get it cheapest from the price trends on your server.

personally I don't think it's worth it, Sarnga or War Bow +1 would make fine subestutes for it....

Ebow is overrated imo,its may be the best bow in terms of damage it can do,but once you get to 71,Mastercasters bow can hit as hard as an Ebow,and if you are from windurst,its even more accurate.But if you compare Ebow to Warbow+1 theres no denying that Ebow is way better.

if you have the gil go ahead and buy it you will lose nothing cuz you can sell it bacl later

but this bow will be annoying when your lv is high cuz you cant use high lv arrows (bow lv 55 ;;) so you have to sell it later

E-bow is not the best bow for rng at high lv but its the best bow from lv 55 to 71 DMG cap your max damage :sweat:

Originally posted by l)@RK-l)EVIL

but this bow will be annoying when your lv is high cuz you cant use high lv arrows (bow lv 55 ;;) so you have to sell it later


Last I checked, that isn't how it worked, since I remember distinctly using a Hunter's Longbow with Iron Arrows.

Originally posted by l)@RK-l)EVIL
but this bow will be annoying when your lv is high cuz you cant use high lv arrows (bow lv 55 ;;) so you have to sell it later...what? I hope you're not saying that you can't use arrows whose levels are higher than that of the bow, because that definitely is not true. :eek:

lol ._. levle ur ranger above 5 before u say something like that daredevil lol

lol ._. levle ur ranger above 5 before u say something like that daredevil lol

haha, totally agree.

E-bow is the best bow, period. There's no contest. Nothing else adds an obscene amount of +rattack, have a high base damage, AND str/agi bonuses.

Best Ranged weapon? Up to debate with O-bow/E-bow.

Best damage? Hellfire +1 and silver bullets/ cannon shells does the trick.

I have O and E bow, 9 out of 10 times E is better, ocassion like Undead or some things that Def down owns on O is better. IMHO MC Bow is too slow. For the highest pure dmg, culvrin + cannon shells, but its slower than molasses.

I'd go with strider boots before an e-bow, and just stick with +1 bows or guns.
Being able to run faster is worth more to me personally, especially if you are pulling the monsters when pt'ing or covering large areas farming tabars or something.

I really miss that fast nighttime ninja AF boot runspeed while playing other jobs :dead:

You could always sell the boots when you are high enough to actually use the e-bow.

Originally posted by RangerDade
I have O and E bow, 9 out of 10 times E is better, ocassion like Undead or some things that Def down owns on O is better. IMHO MC Bow is too slow. For the highest pure dmg, culvrin + cannon shells, but its slower than molasses.

Eurytos Bow delay 490

Master Caster's Bow delay 540

OH MY GOD!!!! The MC Bow is so slow!

Ok now that that's out of the way the delay isn't that bad now is it? This is the best bow in the game by the way. You can keep the +attack (which is useless) and the +3 str and agi (which are ok i guess) and i'll keep the accuracy( which is good) and the damage (which for any weapon is the most important thing) :)

no, what i mean is MC bow has a Dmg/Delay of 0.143 with no real worthwhile dmg mods (acc is nice but almost every other item slot goes to acc) E Bow has a Dmg/Delay of 0.145 with ends up being the same, but its bonus stats are much better.

if any1 was wondering

Ebow / demon arrow = 0.181
Obow/ holy bolt = 0.138*

*crossbow is hard to compare with because of acid bolt effect and +dmg on holy bolts, but on things those dont work on (i.e. HNMs and WS to an effect) Ebow crushes it

mc is more for your buck, thing is its level 70 meanwhile ebow is 55

im thinking im gonna use obow alot like poweryoga ^^ yoga lets go kill dwyvernpoacher drachlox

Originally posted by RangerDade
no, what i mean is MC bow has a Dmg/Delay of 0.143 with no real worthwhile dmg mods (acc is nice but almost every other item slot goes to acc) E Bow has a Dmg/Delay of 0.145 with ends up being the same, but its bonus stats are much better.

if any1 was wondering

Ebow / demon arrow = 0.181
Obow/ holy bolt = 0.138*

*crossbow is hard to compare with because of acid bolt effect and +dmg on holy bolts, but on things those dont work on (i.e. HNMs and WS to an effect) Ebow crushes it

Not with this damage/delay crap again. But anyway the best damage "modifier" is more damage which master casters bow has over eurytos bow. I guess next you're gonna tell me about how Ebow does more damage than a gun because it has a higher "damage to delay ratio".

Not with this damage/delay crap again. But anyway the best damage "modifier" is more damage which master casters bow has over eurytos bow. I guess next you're gonna tell me about how Ebow does more damage than a gun because it has a higher "damage to delay ratio".

So you're telling me you'll take a 6 point base damage difference over +23 Rattack. The +23 Rattack smoothes out the curve so much that the 6 point base damage does less damage overall because of the erratic damage spread. Against IT mobs, you're not going to hit the damage cap.

Maybe you were referring to fearsome savanna rarabs, in that case, M.Cst bow is probably better on those.

Not to mention +3 str raises your maximum damage curve.

We'll ignore the 3 agi.

M.Cst bow has a 5 accuracy lead, but by lvl 71 you have so much +acc gear that you don't really give a shit about 5 more accuracy. My barrages usually land in full and I'm subbing WARRIOR, using FRANSISCA, with ONTHIUS BOW, not dual wielding hawkers with prelude on.

and a Gun's Damage to delay ratio is higher, if you're wondering. :thumbsup:

You like to make generalizations when you have no first hand experience. I'll believe you when you have compared the 2 bows and tell me the M.Cst.Bow does more damage than the E-bow.

Actually, don't, because you don't have a lvl 71 ranger. whoops. :spin:

NO NOT THE RARABS ANYTHING BUT THE RARABS AAAAAAARGGGGGGGGH SAVE ME YOGA ><

you can use high lv arrows with low lv bow ... didnt know that so what =P my rng lv is 5 XD

anyway E-bow DMG still low when you see the high lv bows DMG
for me when i buy weapon
#1 weapon DMG (with my 600~ attack food + berserk + last resort and weapon with low DMG i hit lv 5 mobs for 15~ >.>)

thats mean you will never get the max damage with E-bow but like what i said its very nice bow to have from 55->71

2.0, your one of those people that use sernga because it does 1 bit hit over 10 seconds while warbow+1 does 2 hits in 10 seconds for more dmg. I have used MCbow and Ebow, ebow does slightly more dmg and is slightly faster therefore better. And gun DPS is shitty, its hyped up, The only time id used a gun is if i had like ridill and kraken club to gain tp with, and only use gun for barrage and WS.

anyway E-bow DMG still low when you see the high lv bows DMG

What are you talking about? Ebow is a top tier bow by any means.

As for the M.Casters being better, I'm not sure. I don't know that I'd trade it for an E-bow, but by the same, I don't think I'd trade an E-bow for it either.

6 (on in this case 5) damage for me is definitely noticeable, but by the same token I'm not suffering an attack loss to get it. I'll have to do a parse later on when I get there, I've got a feeling that even without being from windurst both bows will perform very similarly in terms of damage. (M.C being spikey or not)

devil if ur dmg caps at 15 with a low level weapon, somethings wrong with your character

what do you mean higher level bow dmg? the only other bow that out damages EBOW is the relic bow upgrades

Originally posted by poweryoga
So you're telling me you'll take a 6 point base damage difference over +23 Rattack. The +23 Rattack smoothes out the curve so much that the 6 point base damage does less damage overall because of the erratic damage spread. Against IT mobs, you're not going to hit the damage cap.
Actually, from everything I've seen, when people log their battle damage of Sarnga vs. War +1, Sarnga usually comes out even or slightly ahead, even with it's hideous delay. Master Caster's vs. Eurytos is almost exactly the same comparison (lots of +RATK vs. 6 more base DMG and lots more RACC), but MC doesn't have Sarnga's delay.

RATK simply cannot hold a candle to base DMG.

M.Cst bow has a 5 accuracy lead, but by lvl 71 you have so much +acc gear that you don't really give a shit about 5 more accuracy. My barrages usually land in full and I'm subbing WARRIOR, using FRANSISCA, with ONTHIUS BOW, not dual wielding hawkers with prelude on.
Are you fighting exp mobs, or HNM? Against HNM, unless you have Seiryu's Kote, you're probably going to need every scrap of RACC you can get.

and a Gun's Damage to delay ratio is higher, if you're wondering. :thumbsup:
Eurytos' & scorps- 95/580 = 0.1638 damage per delay
Hellfire+1 & silvers- 123/880 = 0.1398 damage per delay

...

P.S. THF/NIN damage per delay with Chicken Knife & Hornetneedle = 0.1335 (not counting Sneak Attack)

Damage per delay calculations are pretty useless.

Actually, from everything I've seen, when people log their battle damage of Sarnga vs. War +1, Sarnga usually comes out even or slightly ahead, even with it's hideous delay. Master Caster's vs. Eurytos is almost exactly the same comparison (lots of +RATK vs. 6 more base DMG and lots more RACC), but MC doesn't have Sarnga's delay.

that would be true except you're not taking into account of weapon skills, in which case E-bow is vastly superior. And the fact at lvl 71 you don't need that Acc.

For sarnga, it is incredibly more accurate at its level so it returns a lot more TP on barrages and hits in general. On normal attacks the damages even out because Sarnga has a bigger variation than Warbow, but hits much more often around the lvl 60 mark when you start fighting annoying high Eva mobs like toramas and flies, so the accuracy is more precious.

Are you fighting exp mobs, or HNM? Against HNM, unless you have Seiryu's Kote, you're probably going to need every scrap of RACC you can get.

Actually, both. Against some HNMs it doesn't matter what bow you have, because you're not going to hit it without double prelude + kote + sharpshoot + shitload of acc stuff anyways. On other ones, I'll be using O-bow and still hitting whatever for 99% of the time.

You don't always need every last scrap of Racc for all HNMs, and on some EXP mobs and party setup, you don't need it either. (especially past lvl 70 when you get just a shitload of RAcc + equipments and the final Acc up trait).

I usually forgo +agi equipment in favor of more Rattack or even +acc just because I already go so much +racc that it won't matter if i lose 5 agi or not.

as for the delay.... Won't comment on that because its affected by too many things.

Originally posted by sharlngan
devil if ur dmg caps at 15 with a low level weapon, somethings wrong with your character

what do you mean higher level bow dmg? the only other bow that out damages EBOW is the relic bow upgrades

my cap was not only 15 i hit sometimes for 20 and sometimes 10 but most of the time 15~
i changed weapon and my hits become 200~ with same atk and STR
there is nothing wrong with my character if you dont believe me go fight low lv mobs and you will see
=============================================

weapon DMG cap your max damage no matter how high your attack and STR you will never ever get your max damage with E-bow thats what i said :biggrin:

e-bow DMG 71
Master Caster DMG 77
master caster > E-bow thats what i think :cool:

um...the lvl 71 RNG/SAM bow? 75 dmg +17 attack? @.@ it looks like a good subestute....

weapon DMG cap your max damage no matter how high your attack and STR you will never ever get your max damage with E-bow thats what i said

You're never going to be hitting your max damage on IT enemies anyways. +23 smooths out a lot of the curve so you'll be hitting at the max damage your bow can do, while MC is very erratic in its damage from my experiences anyways. (+-10 damage)

Then there's also less delay on the E-bow which lets you shoot more, raising your DOT overall.

I don't know any rangers that use shigeto's, because it has a huge delay and MC's delay is a lot better for similar base damage and better accuracy. (for windy ppl only)

Originally posted by poweryoga

I don't know any rangers that use shigeto's, because it has a huge delay and MC's delay is a lot better for similar base damage and better accuracy. (for windy ppl only)

it's a difference of 60 delay, Shigeto's has 600 delay with 75 base dmg and a nice +17 ranged attack, and Master Caster's has the 77 base dmg 540 delay with less attack but some +acc...to me if you arn't a Windurstrain I'd go with the Shigeto's...

Here's some more food for thought.

Two almost identically equipped RNG/NIN, one with E-bow & demons, the other with Musketeer's +1 & silvers. Log results here. (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=7&mid=1091962178212619535&num=25)

SPOILER: Musketeer's wins.

Makes one wonder how much a Hellfire would win by...

not too accurate at all.

E-bow rng was using Emp. Hairpin/AF , and ammo was scorpion vs demon. We'll ignore the hat because the ammemit +1 makes up for the lack of AF head.

Gun and silvers > E-bow + scorps.

Had the other ranger used E-bow and demons the whole time, guarantee you e-bow would win as demons can do up to 10-20 damage more per shot.

Seeing how silver bullets are 10-11k a stack and demons are 6-7k a stack... i'm sure you can setup a more controlled environment. Its not convincing enough to say

Musketeer + silver > e-bow and demons, just cuz the ranger wasn't using demons all the way...

Also a factor of nation controlling which sector for Musketeer's gun.

Originally posted by poweryoga
not too accurate at all.

E-bow rng was using Emp. Hairpin/AF , and ammo was scorpion vs demon. We'll ignore the hat because the ammemit +1 makes up for the lack of AF head.

Gun and silvers > E-bow + scorps.
You did notice that the gun RNG said that he was using Spartan Bullets too, right?

Seeing how silver bullets are 10-11k a stack and demons are 6-7k a stack... i'm sure you can setup a more controlled environment.
Are you f'ing kidding?

Two rangers, same race, same level, same subjob, almost identical equipment... and you're saying that it's not controlled enough? It doesn't get any more controlled in a party built to gain exp.

Also a factor of nation controlling which sector for Musketeer's gun.
It's not much of a factor. If you get RATK bonus from Musketeer's +1, you don't get it from RK Belt+1, and vice versa. Besides, regional bonuses for an area out of your control are statistically more likely to occur, and are therefore generally superior anyway.

Please check my thread again.

I have updated it with more specifics, and I also tell how often I used Spartan Bullets and how often he used Scorpion Arrows.

I also found a slight mistake in the calculation for the Average Damage, Average Damage%, and the Melee and Ranged Miss%.

But, the Musketeer Gun +1 still came out on top.

Do I smell a faint whiff of hypocrisy?

Seeing how silver bullets are 10-11k a stack and demons are 6-7k a stack...

How about: Seeing how ebow costs 5 million, and musketeer +1... doesn't?

How about : Seeing how ebow costs 5 million, and musketeer +1... doesn't?

I don't think money was ever the issue here. The point is to see which one does more damage. The cost is something i put in absent mindedly and probably shouldn't have been in there at all. Also, the main cost of gun is the BULLETS, not the gun. guns are cheap as hell.

Also rereading his post....

Me - 125351 - 100 - 5783 - 72000 - 47568 - 0 - 240/1 - 17.4 - 3.81 - 36.58 - 74.73 - 19838

Him - 109068 - 100 - 5822 - 54002 - 45868 - 0 - 156/1 - 11 - 4.23 - 27.34 - 64.77 - 16321

-Total Fights: 104 76

-Average Damage: 1493.15 1435.11

-Average %Damage: 34.87 31.9

The math is wrong. Check the averages. The gun turns out to be lower with an average damage of 1205.3. I don't know how the parser fudged up when calculating the total damages, but errors are not to be ignored.

As for the controlled environment, I'd like to say this.

Unless you have EVERYTHING THE SAME, its not a controlled environment. Same thing goes for scientific experiments, a lot of experimental data becomes fucked up simply because they frogot to close the case or frogot to water the plant one day. "close enough" for 3 hours will turn into a 200-500 point damage difference. Those damage, though insignificant on even the weakest of mobs, makes a difference in these calculations.

Do you pass that off as "omg, close enough?" no. Also, exp parties are NOT a good way to do controlled tests as a lot of shit happens.

There's a lot of uncertainty regarding base damage and ranged attacks as well as player fight style. One player obviously has an advantage in Rattack, and then there's the whole accuracy issue, and stats too. Then there's the unknown factor in which whether the E-bow ranger used Scorpions When and where, because there ARE times when demons' effects don't land, and you wouldn't know the difference.

Also, issue of Ex Arrows Vs mobs, mob types, when the mob did a special move, when there was Def down, when there was a lot of things... (AKA: Crawler does cacoon right after first weapon skill. It happens. )

This simply isn't convincing enough to mark the e-bow obsolete in comparison to Musketeer's bow. Granted, its at a stupidly high price right now (the bow itself is NOT worth 5 mil) but that doesn't make its damage worse than gun.

This is a very good post regarding bow/gun damages, I'd like to see more data on this as it comes up.

I made my decison.. Gonna use the money for Striders and camp Eastern Shadow, Just seems much easier for me :sweat:

Originally posted by poweryoga
The math is wrong. Check the averages. The gun turns out to be lower with an average damage of 1205.3. I don't know how the parser fudged up when calculating the total damages, but errors are not to be ignored.
If you read the post, you will notice that he explained that though the parser had him tracked for 100+ fights, he only parsed data from 76 of them (the 76 that he was partied with the bow RNG).

As for the controlled environment, I'd like to say this.

Unless you have EVERYTHING THE SAME, its not a controlled environment.
That's great and all, but when you have an environment that is 99%+ the same, I would call that "good enough." You have two RNGs of the same race, same level, with almost exactly the same net stats (bow RNG has a slight stat advantage). If you are going to try to dismiss the logs on this, you're just nitpicking because you don't like the results.

Do you pass that off as "omg, close enough?" no. Also, exp parties are NOT a good way to do controlled tests as a lot of shit happens.
Exp parties are the only way to do a controlled test of which weapon does more damage in exp parties. QED.

There's a lot of uncertainty regarding base damage and ranged attacks as well as player fight style. One player obviously has an advantage in Rattack, and then there's the whole accuracy issue, and stats too.
The bow RNG has the advantage in RATK, and he still lost.

The gun RNG has the advantage in accuracy, which he should, because Musketeer's is more accurate than E-bow.

Then there's the unknown factor in which whether the E-bow ranger used Scorpions When and where, because there ARE times when demons' effects don't land, and you wouldn't know the difference.
The gun RNG went through a full stack of spartans in this party. The difference between a scorp and demon is 10 damage; the difference between a spartan and silver is 80. That means that the bow RNG would have had to go through 8 stacks of scorps, in order not to have an unfair advantage. He didn't; he went through "about as many stacks of demons" as the gun RNG went through silvers. Again, advantage to bow, gun still overcomes it.

Also, issue of Ex Arrows Vs mobs, mob types, when the mob did a special move, when there was Def down, when there was a lot of things... (AKA: Crawler does cacoon right after first weapon skill. It happens. )
Excuses, excuses. These can apply to either player. All that you're doing here is saying that logs can't be trusted, period.

I think the point Yoga is trying to make by mentioning all these variables is that some people are putting too much weight on this one log. Most people in this thread have responded by thinking that guns are *clearly* superior to E-bow... how do you know that in another XP PT the E-bow wouldn't win over due to some other variables? Don't put all your money on one session of logging... some more data is probably necessary before you make a final call.

However, I think the point of the original poster is to show that, if there is any difference between a gun and e-bow, that difference is *negligible* either way. Even if somehow the E-bow would occasionally outdamage guns in a xp session, the difference wouldn't be totally apparent. So that's good news to RNG who don't want to shell out 23085725087 million for a 1% damage increase, if any.

EXP parties are NOT the best way to log testing for EXP mobs. The reason? As yoga said, lots of random variables and unaccounted circumstances can occur and mess up your testing without you knowing it. The best way to log results is to be fighting EXP *monsters* but not necessarily in an EXP environment. For instance, have 2 equally leveled/equipped RNG with only 1 variable of difference (e-bow vs gun) and have them attack the same monster while higher level helpers tank, support and heal, so that the ONLY thing you have to worry about is RNG damage (not adds, not xp chains, etc).

Spider-Dan, chill out with the condescending tone. Stop being so defensive... an argument against the analysis is not a personal flame about your mother.

Also, I wonder if the E-bow user was using P.P. arrow for WS? AFAIK there is no PPA equivalent for a gun... is there? (I know there is PPA equivalent for xbow, gold musketeer bolt or whatever)

Originally posted by imac2much
I think the point Yoga is trying to make by mentioning all these variables is that some people are putting too much weight on this one log. Most people in this thread have responded by thinking that guns are *clearly* superior to E-bow... how do you know that in another XP PT the E-bow wouldn't win over due to some other variables? Don't put all your money on one session of logging... some more data is probably necessary before you make a final call.
When someone presents a log of E-bow vs. Musketeer's that has different results, we can talk about those. But to stand around and say "this doesn't count" is ridiculous. The logs are what they are; plain and simple data. You can interpret the data as you wish, but the indisputable fact is that in this log, a 50k Musketeer's +1 (and 110k of silvers) outdamaged a 5mil Eurytos' (and 80k of demons).

The main benefit of the archery "investment" is that the ammo's supposed to be cheap, right? If you're dropping 8k a stack on demons just to compete with a gun, what's the point?

EXP parties are NOT the best way to log testing for EXP mobs. The reason? As yoga said, lots of random variables and unaccounted circumstances can occur and mess up your testing without you knowing it. The best way to log results is to be fighting EXP *monsters* but not necessarily in an EXP environment. For instance, have 2 equally leveled/equipped RNG with only 1 variable of difference (e-bow vs gun) and have them attack the same monster while higher level helpers tank, support and heal, so that the ONLY thing you have to worry about is RNG damage (not adds, not xp chains, etc).
Two problems:

1) Mobs are random, and can still spam a defense buff in the middle of a SC, or decide to spam their special attacks, etc. This factor cannot be eliminated when fighting mobs, period.

2) If you don't have a real exp party, your results are faked. You'reremoving very real factors (exp chaining, similar level party members, etc.) and replacing them with test dummies. These logs show what's working in a real exp environment; that's why you can't substitute a fake, totally safe "powerlevel" type party for parsing purposes.

Wow... Looks like I need to copy over what I said in another forum, because it looks like everyone is starting to get a bit picky and defensive.

I have updated the thread with the correct numbers. I've spent the last 1.5-2 hours checking all the information, because as I mentioned I did find out what was wrong. I would advice looking through the thread once more if you didn't already.

Now, for my main point...


One thing, please don't critisize me for this. I am writing this thread with the thought in mind of how many people have asked "Gun, or Ebow?". I have seen well over 20 threads asking this question, and all of which had replies like "I'm not sure, but I like my E-bow" or "Musk hits for more, but I'm not sure if the short delay of the Ebow makes up for it" or someone will try to figure it out with some damage/delay equation, which has already been proved inaccurate.

I am not trying to say "Ebow people aren't as good as Gun people!" or "Gun people aren't as good as Ebow people!", or anything like that, as it seems that most of you may be taking it to. I am simply providing the information I obtained from MY experience with a Gun Ranger vs. a Bow Ranger, and please do not take it any farther then that. :P



And I owe you a big thanks red, both for defending me with the critism I've already got (despite my non-biased attitude in this matter :mad: ), and just saving me a lot of writing with issues I already covered in the main post. Thanks man :thumbsup:

Good stuff Ru, I think you'd have a harder time getting a more exact parse than that.

The main benefit of the archery "investment" is that the ammo's supposed to be cheap, right? If you're dropping 8k a stack on demons just to compete with a gun, what's the point?

Who says you have to? The E-bow user can spend 2k a stack on scorps, outdamage everyone except gun users, and still sell the bow back later and have a good amount of pocket change.

If you have the cash laying around, and want to money left over when you're done leveling, E-bow is still the weapon of choice.

i read your post which is interesting, but the a few things stick out. A. what was skillchain? if you were closing you were geting another 400 dmg a mob probly. B. crawlers and darters ranger atks get a 1.5times(?) bonus so the margin is greater than it is. also what did you use to parse(i want to do some test myself)

Originally posted by greysenn
Who says you have to? The E-bow user can spend 2k a stack on scorps, outdamage everyone except gun users, and still sell the bow back later and have a good amount of pocket change.

If you have the cash laying around, and want to money left over when you're done leveling, E-bow is still the weapon of choice.
If you have 5 million gil laying around, not only can you easily afford a gun and enough silvers to take you to endgame, but you can also level several crafts extremely high and get a much better return on investment, while doing better damage the whole time. Win/win.

E-bow is better for farming though. =P

Originally posted by RangerDade
A. what was skillchain? if you were closing you were geting another 400 dmg a mob probly.
Parser tracks skillchains separately; if you close a SC, the SC damage is not credited to you.

Where to begin....

That's great and all, but when you have an environment that is 99%+ the same, I would call that "good enough." You have two RNGs of the same race, same level, with almost exactly the same net stats (bow RNG has a slight stat advantage). If you are going to try to dismiss the logs on this, you're just nitpicking because you don't like the results.

The thing is, its NOT 99% the same. I can understand having the same Acc/Rattack, but having a difference of up to around 20-30 Rattack makes the data innaccurate, and thus not anywhere NEAR 99% the same. And as Dade said, there's a difference between starter and ender.

Exp parties are the only way to do a controlled test of which weapon does more damage in exp parties. QED.

thought we were talking about which does more damage? Not what is going on in exp parties? :rolleyes: Exp parties have a LOT of variables such as links, adds, minuets, whatever. The best controlled equipment would be between 2 rangers with completely identical equipment short of the ranged weapons, a paladin, and a healer with the pld keeping hate, healer healing and the rangers doing their attacks. Player fight style has ALOT to do with damage output, don't froget that.

The bow RNG has the advantage in RATK, and he still lost.

The gun RNG has the advantage in accuracy, which he should, because Musketeer's is more accurate than E-bow.

I'll repost what I said.

"There's a lot of uncertainty regarding base damage and ranged attacks as well as player fight style. One player obviously has an advantage in Rattack..."

The gun RNG went through a full stack of spartans in this party. The difference between a scorp and demon is 10 damage; the difference between a spartan and silver is 80. That means that the bow RNG would have had to go through 8 stacks of scorps, in order not to have an unfair advantage. He didn't; he went through "about as many stacks of demons" as the gun RNG went through silvers. Again, advantage to bow, gun still overcomes it.

Seeing how when I use demon arrows i can get up to 20-30 more damage PER SHOT, its a lot more than just the mere 10 points in difference. The point is, you don't KNOW when he's using scorps and when he's using the demons. That is an uncontrolled variable that you can't see, and can't consider.

Excuses, excuses. These can apply to either player. All that you're doing here is saying that logs can't be trusted, period.

No, maybe you're just putting words in my mouth? Its true that it can happen to any player, but if one person is going first in the skill chain its much more likely to happen to the 2nd player as the first attack might put the crawler over the "weapon skill" limit. If the first player sees a cacoon goes up, he's not gonna shoot off a sidewinder until its dispelled. Keep childish comments like that to yourself please, I'm trying to keep this as civilized a discussion as I can without bashing you in any sort of way. From experiences this has happend way too much to neglect in these logs.

If i see in the log...

Player A does XXX damage with sidewinder!
Crawler readies Cacoon!
Crawler gains the effect of defense up!
Player B does xxx damage with sidewinder!

Obviously there's a difference.

There's a difference between saying "guns outdamage e-bow in an exp party" and that "guns do the most damage period", because those 2 are very different. A log by one person is not the endall argument.

Stop trying to berate my arguments, you only make yourself look angry and defensive when all I'm trying to do is argue some points I don't believe are correct. I am not flaming you nor belittling your arguments, and I'm certainly not dissing Ru-Kenshin's post in any way.

I'm not making fun of your mom, chill.

If you have 5 million gil laying around, not only can you easily afford a gun and enough silvers to take you to endgame, but you can also level several crafts extremely high and get a much better return on investment, while doing better damage the whole time. Win/win.

How do you figure? The guy using the ebow will spend 1/5th the amount on ammo you will, assuming he doesn't use scorps exclusively. I blow about 50k a level on ammo right now, I could probably get it down less than that, if I was pickier about my groups, but I'm not.

Half of that expense it is silvers to play around with and cap marksmanship. If you can afford to spend the cash for silvers on nothing but xp, then congrats, I am envious. Lowballing it, I would expect my costs to be 120kish per level ~55-60.

Assuming you don't pay an assanine price for the bow (Which I consider 4 mil +), and lose it in depreciation, it's a much better investment overall. Win/win not spending 3-4million exclusively on silvers, and getting a return when you sell it back for whatever.

Originally posted by poweryoga
The thing is, its NOT 99% the same. I can understand having the same Acc/Rattack, but having a difference of up to around 20-30 Rattack makes the data innaccurate, and thus not anywhere NEAR 99% the same. And as Dade said, there's a difference between starter and ender.
Where are you getting 20-30 RATK from? Other than the bow/gun (which are specifically the variables being compared), they had the same net RATK (-5 from AF hat to VE is made up by +5 from Amemit to Amemit +1). Actually, this isn't even true, since the gun RNG later clarified that the bow RNG had the AF hat on during the actual exping. So the bow RNG had a 5 RATK advantage the whole time. The comparison is not invalid when the loser has an unfair advantage.

There is no difference between starter and ender; the parser does not credit skillchain damage to a player, only WS damage.

thought we were talking about which does more damage? Not what is going on in exp parties?
Are you seriously arguing now that the comparison is not "which weapon does the most damage in exp parties"? So what are we comparing then, who does the most damage outside of exp parties?

I'll repost what I said.

"There's a lot of uncertainty regarding base damage and ranged attacks as well as player fight style. One player obviously has an advantage in Rattack..."
Yeah, the player that lost had a big advantage in RATK.

If you are going to start DQ'ing logs because "the player style might be different" then there is just no point to parsed logs in exp parties at all.

The point is, you don't KNOW when he's using scorps and when he's using the demons. That is an uncontrolled variable that you can't see, and can't consider.
As I already pointed out, the fact that he went through a full stack of spartans more than negates any penalty from using scorps. Furthermore, you can see (in later additions to the thread) that the bow RNG had a notify macro for ammo change.

No, maybe you're just putting words in my mouth? Its true that it can happen to any player, but if one person is going first in the skill chain its much more likely to happen to the 2nd player as the first attack might put the crawler over the "weapon skill" limit.
1) They weren't always going in the same order.
2) This objection could apply to ANY log. Are all exp party logs invalid? I somehow doubt that you would raise these objections on every other log parse you saw.

There's a difference between saying "guns outdamage e-bow in an exp party" and that "guns do the most damage period", because those 2 are very different.
I wasn't aware that people generally cared about which weapons do the most damage outside of exp parties. The only other situations I can think of are HNM/Dynamis, which would obviously require an HNM/Dynamis log parse.

Originally posted by greysenn
How do you figure? The guy using the ebow will spend 1/5th the amount on ammo you will, assuming he doesn't use scorps exclusively. I blow about 50k a level on ammo right now, I could probably get it down less than that, if I was pickier about my groups, but I'm not.
First of all, if you are using E-bow + scorps, you're doing WAY less damage* than Musketeer + silvers.

Assuming you're using E-bow + demons (still less, but in the same general area) you are paying about 8k/stack vs 10k/stack. That's barely any savings at all.

Half of that expense it is silvers to play around with and cap marksmanship. If you can afford to spend the cash for silvers on nothing but xp, then congrats, I am envious. Lowballing it, I would expect my costs to be 120kish per level ~55-60.
5 million gil buys 500 stacks of silvers. Your marksmanship should be capped anyway, and if it isn't, xbow will cap it with less than 100k total investment.

Assuming you don't pay an assanine price for the bow (Which I consider 4 mil +), and lose it in depreciation, it's a much better investment overall. Win/win not spending 3-4million exclusively on silvers, and getting a return when you sell it back for whatever.
When you are holding that 5 million gil bow, you don't have 5 million gil in your pocket. When you sell it and buy a Musketeer's +1 and, say, 50 stacks of silvers, guess what? You still have about 4.5 million gil in your hands. That 4.5 million gil, instead of being tied up in one piece of equipment, can be put to work for you. That means, top-flite equipment, multiple high-level crafts, you name it. By the time you get tired of your E-bow and sell it, I would have turned that 5 million gil into double that, plus made enough operating profit to keep me well stocked in silvers.

*in exp parties

First of all, if you are using E-bow + scorps, you're doing WAY less damage* than Musketeer + silvers.

You must ~~~really~~~ be killing warbow+1 and scorps then. The difference in overall fight time is about 10 seconds, maybe a little more.

5 million gil buys 500 stacks of silvers. Your marksmanship should be capped anyway, and if it isn't, xbow will cap it with less than 100k total investment.

My bad, I wasn't specific enough here. I use M+1 & silvers to cap my skill each level. It adds 40-50% to my leveling costs just capping the skill (1.5 to 2.5 stacks to cap normally). I would probably get away with 25-30k if I used an X-bow to cap it, or just went straight bows.

When you are holding that 5 million gil bow, you don't have 5 million gil in your pocket. When you sell it and buy a Musketeer's +1 and, say, 50 stacks of silvers, guess what? You still have about 4.5 million gil in your hands. That 4.5 million gil, instead of being tied up in one piece of equipment, can be put to work for you. That means, top-flite equipment, multiple high-level crafts, you name it. By the time you get tired of your E-bow and sell it, I would have turned that 5 million gil into double that, plus made enough operating profit to keep me well stocked in silvers

So for 500k expense you just got yourself 4~5 levels, of which you'll never be able to recoup the costs. In anycase, By that logic I could've just as easily capped or near capped my tradeskills before buying an E-bow. It still dosen't change the fact that your leveling costs with it are going to be ~20% of what you would get using M+1 & silvers.

You had better double your money in that time, because if you don't you're going to spend 3-4 mil getting to 75 with nothing to show other than xp.

Originally posted by greysenn
My bad, I wasn't specific enough here. I use M+1 & silvers to cap my skill each level. It adds 40-50% to my leveling costs just capping the skill (1.5 to 2.5 stacks to cap normally). I would probably get away with 25-30k if I used an X-bow to cap it, or just went straight bows.
Wait a second... are you saying that, after each ding, you immediately run out and join a skillup party (or something) to gain those 3 points of skill? I'm not even sure I understand what you are saying here.

So for 500k expense you just got yourself 4~5 levels, of which you'll never be able to recoup the costs. In anycase, By that logic I could've just as easily capped or near capped my tradeskills before buying an E-bow.
1) If you were using demons, your costs aren't much less.
2) It's a lot easier and faster to cap a tradeskill with 4+ million gil in your hands.

It still dosen't change the fact that your leveling costs with it are going to be ~20% of what you would get using M+1 & silvers.
Only if you use vastly inferior ammo. If you use somewhat comparable ammo, then you'll be spending 80% of the costs, plus 10000% on the actual weapon.

You had better double your money in that time, because if you don't you're going to spend 3-4 mil getting to 75 with nothing to show other than xp.
You're discounting the fact that you would be doing substantially more damage.

I can't believe that I'm having an discussion with rangers where the main objection being used is, "Sure, you may do more damage, but it costs way more and you'll never get that money back!"

As I see it, unless you are hopelessly rich (meaning, you can afford to spend 5 million gil without worrying about it) E-bow and Peacock Charm are just not worth the opportunity cost. Peacock is, at least, the best item for it's slot (though it's not worth the price for a RNG). E-bow isn't even the best ranged weapon for it's level, and any additional costs in gun ammo are more than offset by E-bow's ridiculously overinflated price. By selling an E-bow alone, I'd probably never have to worry about gun ammo for the rest of the game.

Both sides make very good points, but I think I generally agree with Spidey at the moment... very persuasive arguments, and I concur with most of them :biggrin:

Shelling out 5mil to get an E-bow does NOT mean you have 5mil... yes, you can probably sell it back later for more than you bought it for, but you aren't really saving money ammo-wise, unless, as Spidey said, you are usin Scorps instead of Demons...

But if you're saving money, why the heck are you using E-bow? That's what I would ask myself at least. If I care about money enough nto to use Demon Arrows, it just seems wiser to use a gun and somewhat expensive ammo, which generally isn't overwhelmingly more expensive than a stack fo Demons in the first place.

With the money you save from not getting a 5million bow, you can invest into a tradeskill such as Alchemy, Woodworking, etc which will generally pay off big int he long run. IMO that seems like a better investment than buying and reselling an E-bow... When you reap your benefits from E-bow investment (i.e. sell back your E-bow), you have nothing to show for it. When you reap your benefits from your tradeskill investment, you have a high level crafting skill.

Of course I'm still not convinced that a gun will definitely outdamage E-bow... but that wasn't the point Spidey and Kenshin were trying to make anyway I think. What's good to know is that the damage is at least comparable and in some situations the gun can outdamage E-bow.

But once again I ask... what if the E-bow user uses 32k cp arrow for WS with unlimited shot? Like I said there's no equivalent for gun I believe and that could potentially make a large impact.

The bow RNG in the log was using CP Arrow for Sidewinder.

Wait a second... are you saying that, after each ding, you immediately run out and join a skillup party (or something) to gain those 3 points of skill? I'm not even sure I understand what you are saying here.

I'm saying after I level up, I lock and load while xping until the skill is capped. Just capping that skill in itself in that fashion adds 15-25k to your leveling costs.

All I'm doing is looking at this from a realistic expense standpoint. M+1 and silvers do noticeably more damage than the other setups, they even outdamage the e-bow in that particular parse. They also notch up your leveling expenses from about 20-25k to 100-150k per level. I find that an unrealistic amount to obtain per level with my current income.

Secondly, scorpion arrows and even elementals are not vastly inferior ammo for a leveling party. I don't know about your server, however there is not a huge supply of demons and Kabura on mine. They tend to range 6-8k per stack for demons, and take a while (Few days) to have more posted after they've been sold.
While I fully plan on using them, I don't plan on making every arrow I shoot a demon or Kabura.

If 5 mil is as easy to make as everyone makes it out to be, You can easily cap those tradeskills out and make even more money while getting an E-bow, if you so desire. It's not like you're just suddenly gifted with 5 million in most cases.

You're discounting the fact that you would be doing substantially more damage.

I can't believe that I'm having an discussion with rangers where the main objection being used is, "Sure, you may do more damage, but it costs way more and you'll never get that money back!"

Yeah, you will be. But like I said, the mob in that case only dies about 10 seconds faster. I don't consider myself particularly cheap, but there is a point where having to hunt down cash breeches the fun/time coeffecient :p

I can't believe I'm having a discussion where your cash flow is virtually unlimited. Surely even you have limits to your playtime dan.

Hmmm... I skimmed through and read most of it, and I saw a lot about the cost of using a Musketeer Gun +1 and Silver Bullets as a main weapon, but no one here has actually gave information about it or seems to have had experience with it to give it.

So, I'll tell you now from what I know... I've been tracking the costs in ammo for the past few levels, and as I remember it, it's gone like this:

Lv. 63-64 -> ~210k
Lv. 64-65 -> ~225k
Lv. 65-66 -> ~230k

That counts money for Shehei, Chiefkabobs/Mithkabobs, Silver Bullets, and Spartan Bullets.

Not sure if that'll help any...

Originally posted by greysenn
I'm saying after I level up, I lock and load while xping until the skill is capped. Just capping that skill in itself in that fashion adds 15-25k to your leveling costs.
If you're using gun+silvers full time, it's a non-issue.

All I'm doing is looking at this from a realistic expense standpoint. M+1 and silvers do noticeably more damage than the other setups, they even outdamage the e-bow in that particular parse. They also notch up your leveling expenses from about 20-25k to 100-150k per level. I find that an unrealistic amount to obtain per level with my current income.
Again, if we are discussing unrealistic time investment for leveling costs, let's start by talking about how long it takes to save for an E-bow.

Secondly, scorpion arrows and even elementals are not vastly inferior ammo for a leveling party.
Compared to silvers, they will do significantly less damage. I'm not saying that scorps are unacceptable (far from it) but if you are trying to be an elite damage dealer by getting an E-bow, you might as well do it right and just go guns.

Yeah, you will be. But like I said, the mob in that case only dies about 10 seconds faster. I don't consider myself particularly cheap, but there is a point where having to hunt down cash breeches the fun/time coeffecient :p
I would find the idea of nonstop farming for two months straight to save up enough for a bow (that I still have to farm to buy ammo for) as a totally different class of breeching the fun/time coefficient. It doesn't just breech it; it smashes it to atoms.

I can't believe I'm having a discussion where your cash flow is virtually unlimited. Surely even you have limits to your playtime dan.
In the hypothetical situation that I either a) came across 5 million gil or b) came across an E-bow, the best solution for fun/time (while keeping the same damage output or better) would be gun+silvers. If you have the 5 million gil in your hands already, farming time is no longer an issue.

E-bow isn't the most expensive bow on the server anymore..

Shigetto +1's going for 9mil atm.

76dam 582 delay, +16ratt, +8racc for samurai

Very nice bow, but ouch.

Don't think I've seen shigeto +1s on sale in midgard so we don't get to play around with it...

Like I've said before, E-bow is not worth the 5 mil. I'm too lazy to continue this debate any further, but I view E-bow as an investment. You won't do better damage with any other bow + scorps. Guns cost at least 250k a level, if not more. Throw down a few levels and you're on par with the cost of an e-bow. Which one is more expensive now? Not to mention you can't farm as well with a gun nor run around carefreely shooting bronze bullets (since those cost a bundle too).

In the end, I'm not denying the results of a parser and Spidy and Kenshin's views. I've considered guns the most powerful tools you can possibly use, but to say that the gun outdamages e-bow in every situation is absurd.

In the end, its 1 person's log. It can be biased, it can be made to make the user look good. I'd like to hear from more sources, as kenshin is pretty well known for favoring the gun over e-bow since I've browsed the forums in allakazham.

I'm not going to nitpick on all the things you say, its pointless.

As of this moment, If i get a e-bow, I'll probably sell it and cap out woodworking, while getting myself 2 behemoth rings, hawkers +1, and an ammemit +1. That alone is worth more than the E-bow itself. Simply because i can do much more with 5 mil than a slight upgrade to my m.cst bow.

Now I just want a parser result of Gun vs O-bow + acids...

Originally posted by poweryoga
You won't do better damage with any other bow + scorps. Guns cost at least 250k a level, if not more. Throw down a few levels and you're on par with the cost of an e-bow. Which one is more expensive now?
If "a few levels" = the rest of the way to 75 and more, I agree. 500 stacks will last a long, long time.

And actually, you would have to go through closer to 600 stacks before total cost of gun+bullets approached total cost of e-bow+scorps.

I've considered guns the most powerful tools you can possibly use, but to say that the gun outdamages e-bow in every situation is absurd.
It's no less absurd than saying that E-bow will outdamage [lots of other weapons] in every situation, yet that is apparently the de facto belief for many RNGs. Can you really say that E-bow will outdamage Shigeto or MC in every situation? Yet you just said that "you won't do better damage with any other bow."

Now I just want a parser result of Gun vs O-bow + acids...
O-bow is going to be almost impossible to get a controlled parse on. The reason is because (in a setup similar to this one) the gun (or E-bow) user would benefit equally from the O-bow user's acids.

Can you really say that E-bow will outdamage Shigeto or MC in every situation? Yet you just said that "you won't do better damage with any other bow."

with the exception of a shigetos +1, i'm pretty sure E-bow outdamages all other bows.

At least, when I used it, it outdamaged M.Cst Bow in exp party. I never purchased a shigeto because of its delay. E-bow has a much smaller delay than shigeto's so it shoots faster anyways (with more accuracy).

Originally posted by poweryoga
with the exception of a shigetos +1, i'm pretty sure E-bow outdamages all other bows.

At least, when I used it, it outdamaged M.Cst Bow in exp party. I never purchased a shigeto because of its delay. E-bow has a much smaller delay than shigeto's so it shoots faster anyways (with more accuracy).
But how can you say this? This is my point. In exactly the same way that you can argue that maybe E-bow can still outdamage Musketeer's, I can argue that maybe Shigeto (with higher DMG and similar RATK) or MC (with higher DMG and more ACC) can outdamage E-bow.

On the one hand, you want to say that this isn't enough to prove that gun "always" outdamages E-bow, but on the other you take it for granted that E-bow "always" outdamages other bows.

god, are you on a mission to disprove everything I say? :rolleyes:

But how can you say this? This is my point. In exactly the same way that you can argue that maybe E-bow can still outdamage Musketeer's, I can argue that maybe Shigeto (with higher DMG and similar RATK) or MC (with higher DMG and more ACC) can outdamage E-bow.

I already told you, E-bow outdamages M.Cst in exp party, PERIOD. This is from personal experience from exping at lvl 70-72. M.Cst has higher accuracy, THAT'S IT. It gives good damage on barrage, possibly 100-200 damage more on average than E-bow, but that's all I'll give credit for. But i've seen M.cst miss completely on a barrage too.

Shigeto's, with its huge delay AND lower base damage than the M.Cst, would have less damage output simply because it can't shoot as fast. Shigeto's +1 is simply out of reach for any of us, as I've never seen it anywhere on midgard other than the 2 people that sold it to themselves, and thus makes it impossible to buy. Not to mention its LESS accurate unless you're a samurai, so chances of it missing/screwing up a barrage are much higher.

Give it a rest already, though I'm sure you'll find some minute detail to pick on no matter what I say. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by poweryoga
I already told you, E-bow outdamages M.Cst in exp party, PERIOD. This is from personal experience from exping at lvl 70-72.
Did you log this, or is this just from your impression?

If you have the logs, I would be interested in seeing the difference.

60 secounds longer isn't really a huge delay...Shigato's looks very appealing to me, the non-Windurstrain as a nice alternative to E-Bow, but personally I think I'll be using Crossbows/Guns more...I just really, REALLY like the option of using 3 different weapons as a RNG

E-bow has delay of 490, Shigeto's has delay of 600. That's a big enough difference for rangers since all we do is shoot, and some melee for TP. Higher base damage with lack of accuracy in a bow is not what I'm looking for. When I go bow, I want all of my barrage to hit, not act as another shot. However, if you're not windurstian, I agree Shigeto > M.Cst.

For E-bow and M.Cst bow... I don't keep logs. I see my M.Cst does routinely 100-105 damage without Zerk, and I see E-bow doing 100-110 withotu zerk, and the Weapon skills with e-bow are generally more powerful with sidewinders being in the 1300-1400s and arching nearing the 800 mark (with zerk on.) I shouldn't have to accumulate 70 pages of data and parse it to know that E-bow is more powerful with it damaging nearly every aspect of M.Cst (minus barrage).

Normal damage can be considered marginal really, I'm not impressed with a 5 damage increase but I am impressed with a good 200 damage increase on weapon skills.

I shouldn't have to find a parser, post 70 pages of log, borrow an e-bow from whoever, post up a whole bunch of crap just to satisfy your curiosity. i've already satisfied my own curiosity and telling you what I found, and if you're not gonna believe me....

do it yourself. :thumbsup:

Originally posted by poweryoga
For E-bow and M.Cst bow... I don't keep logs. I see my M.Cst does routinely 100-105 damage without Zerk, and I see E-bow doing 100-110 withotu zerk, and the Weapon skills with e-bow are generally more powerful with sidewinders being in the 1300-1400s and arching nearing the 800 mark (with zerk on.) I shouldn't have to accumulate 70 pages of data and parse it to know that E-bow is more powerful with it damaging nearly every aspect of M.Cst (minus barrage).
All of the above totally fails to take into account MC's other main advantage (better accuracy). This is why I asked if you had a log.

I shouldn't have to find a parser, post 70 pages of log, borrow an e-bow from whoever, post up a whole bunch of crap just to satisfy your curiosity. i've already satisfied my own curiosity and telling you what I found, and if you're not gonna believe me....

do it yourself. :thumbsup:
Judging from the results of this thread, even if you saw a log with MC outdamaging e-bow, you'd just say "doesn't count" and wave it off.

Sorry if you have no interest in actually finding out which bonuses make the better real-world difference.

All of the above totally fails to take into account MC's other main advantage (better accuracy). This is why I asked if you had a log.

If i'm hitting 90% of my shots with a Onthius bow (-7 accuracy in comparison to E-bow), why the fuck would I care about 7 extra accuracy on an M.Cst. Bow? Barrages every 5 minutes doesn't offset 200 extra damage on skill chains every other round. If there was ANY significant accuracy decrease I'd have already noticed it.

Judging from the results of this thread, even if you saw a log with MC outdamaging e-bow, you'd just say "doesn't count" and wave it off.

I already KNOW it does more damage. Maybe you are just too stubborn to believe it. Keep wandering in your dream world where you are always right. It does more damage in my hands from switching back and forth between M.Cst and E-bow, so that's all the evidence I need.

Sorry if you have no interest in actually finding out which bonuses make the better real-world difference.

Sorry if I have no interest in wasting my time merely to satisfy your ego or my own. You can go lvl your rng to 71 and find out yourself that E-bow is better. I already have from my experiences, and if you refuse to believe me, go test them yourself.

Originally posted by poweryoga
If i'm hitting 90% of my shots with a Onthius bow (-7 accuracy in comparison to E-bow), why the fuck would I care about 7 extra accuracy on an M.Cst. Bow?
And how do you know you are hitting "90%" without a log parser? You mean to say that you aren't hitting 84%, not hitting 93%... nope, it happens to be exactly 90%.

If you can hit 85% with one weapon and 95% with another, that in itself is a significant total difference that you would assuredly NOT catch by eye. This is why log parsers are necessary to compare weapons with different accuracy!

Have you ever wondered why everyone says "Sarnga sucks, my War Bow+1 does just about the same damage but doesn't have the ridiculous delay," yet everyone who actually logs the damage comparison ended up saying, "Hmmm, Sarnga actually did slightly more total damage"?

Note that I'm not even saying that MC is necessarily BETTER than E-bow! I'm just trying to see if someone knows the actual difference in total performance (that includes accuracy) between the two... and you're fighting me tooth-and-nail the whole way. Why is it that when E-bow loses log comparison to gun, the cry is, "More testing needs to be done", yet when E-bow beats MC by default (with not a log in sight) the response is, "I already KNOW it does more damage"? Some consistency, please?

Why are people so fanatically devoted to this damn bow?

since when are we comparing Shigato's to E-Bow? We were talking Master Caster's when that was brought up...I'd rather have my 2 less base dmg and +18 attack (and personally I like weapons with longer delays for more TP return) than the 2 more base dmg that Master Caster's would give me

If you can hit 85% with one weapon and 95% with another, that in itself is a significant total difference that you would assuredly NOT catch by eye. This is why log parsers are necessary to compare weapons with different accuracy!

Or you could just be having an off night with whatever weapon you're using and have it be called a margin of error. Ru posted 10% higher hit rate than the other guy with the E-bow with just 3 more Racc.

Oh, didn't know you were comparing M.Cst bow. /slap hissy :D

I'd personally go with Shigeto over M.Cst. bow because the damage/accuracy isn't significant enough at lvl 70+ for a ranger, but it sure looks a hell of a lot cooler. Not to mention there's no choice if you're not a windurstian.

And how do you know you are hitting "90%" without a log parser? You mean to say that you aren't hitting 84%, not hitting 93%... nope, it happens to be exactly 90%.

Why are you nitpicking on wording? Obviously I just threw in a number for example's sake. The point is that its accurate enough for me to not notice a difference.

"Oh yes, I hit 93.525% of my shots on Windsday, 01:56 Waxing crescent, with the wind blowing SE at 2 Mph with the bow tension at blah blah blah blah".

And how do you know you are hitting "90%" without a log parser? You mean to say that you aren't hitting 84%, not hitting 93%... nope, it happens to be exactly 90%.

when I notice that almost none of my arrows miss (ok, say maybe I miss 10 shots) over the course of a hour exp party, that's fair enough comparison for me. I would have noticed if I have been missing 3-4 arrows a fight instead of the normal 1-2. That alone is enough to see the difference. (minus blink if there's any on weapons).

Are you going to nitpick on 95% vs 96% now too? save yourself the trouble and don't. Anything within 10% is pretty much within a good error margin. :rolleyes:

Have you ever wondered why everyone says "Sarnga sucks, my War Bow+1 does just about the same damage but doesn't have the ridiculous delay," yet everyone who actually logs the damage comparison ended up saying, "Hmmm, Sarnga actually did slightly more total damage"?

Actually, pre lvl 60 the warbow +1 does more damage. Post 60 Sarnga does more damage because of its accuracy.

Why is it that when E-bow loses log comparison to gun, the cry is, "More testing needs to be done", yet when E-bow beats MC by default (with not a log in sight) the response is, "I already KNOW it does more damage"? Some consistency, please?

When a log shows up there's always problems with consistency. Note its 2 players, not 1. That's not even controlled data, but for the sake of simplicity i'll leave that out. Also, That's the only log that I know of. You don't come to conclustions based on 1 test, by 1 person.

E.Bow doesn't "beat MC by default". I've done testing with it and it wins just from my experience. I'm not going to load up a parser for you, I'm not going to beg my friend to borrow his/her e-bow just for you. I'm not going to go through the trouble of lvling when I don't want to just for you.

Do it your self and see. Load up the parser yourself and see. I don't want to waste time to prove you wrong, you can do that yourself when you hit lvl 71. I KNOW it does more damage because I've used both damn bows in a party. Several others that have used both have said the same thing. Its not like I'm pulling it out of John Kerry's ass.

Why are people so fanatically devoted to this damn bow?

I don't know why you're trying SO hard to prove that this isn't the best bow. I'm not fanatically devoted to this bow, I don't even want one at this point. You're just bringing up wild accusations and nitpicking on the smallest thing. I've already tested this myself and know that it is indeed better than M.Cst. The only thing holding me back from getting this bow is that its 5 mil, and I'm not wasting 5 mil on this bow when I can get a subpar bow that's slightly worse for 120k.

I'll say this again. If you're not satisfied with word of mouth, test it yourself. :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

Originally posted by poweryoga
Oh, didn't know you were comparing M.Cst bow. /slap hissy :D

I'd personally go with Shigeto over M.Cst. bow because the damage/accuracy isn't significant enough at lvl 70+ for a ranger, but it sure looks a hell of a lot cooler. Not to mention there's no choice if you're not a windurstian.


that's what I was saying the whole time =/

There are two major points that are remaining, IMO.

1) If you have markedly less accuracy over a significant number of attacks (1000+ shots is certainly significant) then you didn't have "an off day." You had worse accuracy and you were beaten because of it. Small differences in accuracy rating can make a big difference in net accuracy. There are enough other examples of this (e.g. you can hit a mob more consistently after gaining one level) that I don't think this is in dispute.

2) If you don't have a log, then you don't know you outdamaged any other weapon. There really is no way to get around it. If one is tracking accuracy by eye, then any comparison of accuracy vs. damage per hit on remotely similar weapons will always end up with the higher damage-per-hit weapon winning in one's mind, because "I think I hit just as much." But if you don't know how much damage that extra accuracy (even if small) translates to, then how can you know who won in total damage?

The statement that WB+1 beats Sarnga pre-60 but loses post-60 is an excellent example of this. Since Sarnga is a LV59 weapon, how do you know Sarnga loses at LV59 (for exactly one level) but then wins as soon as you level up?

If you don't want to use a log parser, fine. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. But if you don't use a log parser, then you cannot know the net difference that more accuracy makes. If you think 10% net accuracy advantage (85% vs. 95%) is nothing, you're crazy. If you are at a 10% accuracy handicap, not only would you have to do 10% more damage per hit, but your WS would have to do MORE than that (seeing as how you have 10% less TP and will have an even greater handicap on WS accuracy).

OT: How do I run a parser, is there something in-game that allows me to do it, or do I need to run an outside program?

1) If you have markedly less accuracy over a significant number of attacks (1000+ shots is certainly significant) then you didn't have "an off day." You had worse accuracy and you were beaten because of it. Small differences in accuracy rating can make a big difference in net accuracy. There are enough other examples of this (e.g. you can hit a mob more consistently after gaining one level) that I don't think this is in dispute.

I don't buy it. I've had at least as much of 10% difference on the same mobs, on different days of playing easily. Since I noticed it, it had to have been more than that. Sidewinder is particularly notorious of this. Just that alone can account for your damage going from good to crap. (Particularly if you're a chain closer.)

Furthermore, while any added accuracy is in no doubt useful, I think the mob level in relationship to you is even more signficant than that.

The statement that WB+1 beats Sarnga pre-60 but loses post-60 is an excellent example of this. Since Sarnga is a LV59 weapon, how do you know Sarnga loses at LV59 (for exactly one level) but then wins as soon as you level up?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of the mobs you fight in the 60's have gimp defense. If this is the case, it would put the sargnas added damage to maximum effect, even if the hit rate remained similar.

Originally posted by greysenn
I don't buy it. I've had at least as much of 10% difference on the same mobs, on different days of playing easily. Since I noticed it, it had to have been more than that.
Are you really taking eyeballed estimates of accuracy and saying that it's "10%" difference? /sigh

If what you are saying is true, and people can just have "bad days" (meaning, specifically, that you do significantly worse for no reason at all) then you are essentially saying that the game is so random that no matter how much data you gather, any results you get boil down to dumb luck; the corollary of this argument is that there is no point in getting quality equipment because your performance is going to be controlled by good day/bad day anyway!

We are talking about a difference in accuracy over a huge sample (1000+ shots). If you cannot get meaningful data from a sample that large, there is just no point in trying to understand how this game works, period.

If you're suggesting that 3 Racc makes 10% difference in total damage, then with 10 racc there is no debate about /nin or /war doing more damage. Oh wait, there is. But we don't really need to re-live those flamer posts do we?

Anycase, I don't give a rats ass if my accuracy fluxuates 5, 10 or 20%. Unfortunately, it's not always consistant from day to day. Sidewinder accuracy is not consistant from day to day.

If what you are saying is true, and people can just have "bad days" (meaning, specifically, that you do significantly worse for no reason at all) then you are essentially saying that the game is so random that no matter how much data you gather, any results you get boil down to dumb luck; the corollary of this argument is that there is no point in getting quality equipment because your performance is going to be controlled by good day/bad day anyway!

No, I'm suggesting that while it definetly may improve your average, there is still a random factor to it. His parse was taken all in the same sitting. Does this mean the e-bow is going to outdamage this gun in another? No, it dosen't. I think the gun will probably (and should for it's expense of using) kick the e-bows ass any day of the week. But their hit rates may certainly vary some.

christ, you're still at it?

Everyone has on and off days. One day I can hit every single sidewinder at 100% tp, other day I can miss every single shot at 300% tp. Its luck and its a randomness factor you'll have to accept as margin of error.


The statement that WB+1 beats Sarnga pre-60 but loses post-60 is an excellent example of this. Since Sarnga is a LV59 weapon, how do you know Sarnga loses at LV59 (for exactly one level) but then wins as soon as you level up?

stop nitpicking on every little wording I use. The accuracy concern comes into play because you move to raptors/toramas at lvl 60, which has fucking high evasion, and Warbow +1 doesn't do as well. Its not because I gained a lvl and everything is "magically better". Its the stuff you exp on. For christ's sake, thought you'd know better than that.

If you are at a 10% accuracy handicap, not only would you have to do 10% more damage per hit, but your WS would have to do MORE than that (seeing as how you have 10% less TP and will have an even greater handicap on WS accuracy).

The weapon skills E-bow does more than covers the 10% gap, but that's besides the point. Nobody is saying there needs to be a 10% disadvantage, you're making shit up as you go along. I said 10% is an acceptable error margin for testing purposes, not 1 person has a 10% advantage over another. Good job for misreading and putting words in my mouth.

Again, for the huge sample collecting thing. shit still happens, I'm not going to incorporate randomness factor and luck into this argument because that'll just give you more things to be unhappy about. 1000 shots is not even a big enough sample as that is easily covered in 1 exp party. In a big enough sample, 10% is not going to affect the outcome much. Sure, in 1 sitting it might. Over the course of 10 or so Exp parties it won't. That's probably the equivalent of probably a mere 10k damage out of 100k worth of damage, which is insignificant. If you're telling me "omg, 10k damage is a lot over the course of shooting 219387432942 arrows...", then maybe you should go back and re-read some basic stuff on statistics and maybe even 3-sigma.

Give it a rest, I wish you luck on your holy crusade to prove that the E-bow is the crappiest bow ever though sheer stubborness and unwillingness to listen to other people.

Originally posted by poweryoga
Everyone has on and off days. One day I can hit every single sidewinder at 100% tp, other day I can miss every single shot at 300% tp. Its luck and its a randomness factor you'll have to accept as margin of error.
I think that over the course of one thousand Sidewinders you would be able to determine whether accuracy bonuses make a difference. Let's keep sample size in perspective, here. I'm not talking about missing 5 Sidewinders in a row (i.e. "a bad day") or anything of such tiny statistical value.

stop nitpicking on every little wording I use. The accuracy concern comes into play because you move to raptors/toramas at lvl 60, which has fucking high evasion, and Warbow +1 doesn't do as well. Its not because I gained a lvl and everything is "magically better". Its the stuff you exp on.
That's great, but you're sidestepping my point. I was the one who brought up the fact that logs showed Sarnga winning (contrary to popular estimation from eyeball damage parsing), so explaining why it wins is preaching to the choir.

My question is, how do you know that Sarnga loses at LV59? You're just eyeballing accuracy and supposing that Sarnga's accuracy won't make a difference against non-high-evasion mobs.

1000 shots is not even a big enough sample as that is easily covered in 1 exp party.
How is this at all relevant? 1000 shots is 1000 shots. It is a sample size of one thousand. That is statistically significant, by definition. The number of exp parties is not even a factor.

In a big enough sample, 10% is not going to affect the outcome much. Sure, in 1 sitting it might. Over the course of 10 or so Exp parties it won't.
...?!?!?!

10% is still 10%! If it's over one party, or one hundred, it's still 10%! It affects the outcome EXACTLY the same (by ten percent)!

You tell me that I need to re-read some basic statistics, when you say stuff like this?

The bottom line is this: you cannot eyeball statistics. Statistical analysis by guesstimation has been shown NOT to work, time and time again. I know that you are vehemently opposed to using a log parser, but I would encourage you (for your own sake) to actually try logging an exp party and comparing what you think your accuracy is against what the parser says your accuracy is... especially if you think that you regularly get 90% accuracy while exping. I will send you a stack of silvers (or demons, if you prefer) if you actually get 90% accuracy against IT mobs with an O-bow.

.....You *do* realize that, by the nature of the game and EXP CHAIN system, damage in bursts is far more important and vital than damage over time right?

This is the main draw for E-bow.

It doesn't matter if other bows make up for the lesser WS damage by doing a few extra hits in or some other crap. When it all comes down to it, it's how fast you can end those chain 4,5, and 6's, and when it comes to that, it's ALL about the damage in burst.

You save up something for the last few chains (MP, TP, JA like barrage, whatever), then you unleash it in your primal fury to get that extra 40% or whatever EXP. This is what truly smart and good parties do... maybe not what the majority of parties do, but we're not talking about the average Joe are we?

I don't want to nitpick or flame every little freakin word anyone says, so I'm just stating something I thought was common knowledge in the high end game.

This is also why DRK/THF is preferred to DRK/WAR. Hate control is only the secondary factor in this case. A DRK/WAR would end a lvl 3 skillchain with a 600-700 damage WS with 500-800 damage dark/light bonus. Tough, but I can keep aggro from that. A DRK/THF will hit for 1-1.2k damage WS and 800-1.5k damage dark/light (I'm not making up numbers, this is what I see. I don't need to parse my logs to remember the big numbers). They usually don't even trick onto me, usually some other melee. Why? Cuz that freakin huge damage will generally kill the monster anyway (or close to kill). And if it doesn't? Magic burst that shit with Firaga III or whatever. Dead mob, XP chain 5/6.

I don't care that DRK/WAR does much more damage over time than DRK/THF. This goes without question. Due to double attack, berserk, warcry, DRK/WAR will *always* outdamage a DRK/THF and always gain TP faster as well. If a DRK/WAR just spammed a WS every time he got 100% TP, he'd probably outdamage the DRK/THF by 150-200%.

So WHAT?? That's not the point of smart parties. You want damage in bursts. E-bow allows that. There's no question its sidewinders and arching arrows do more damage than any other bow. And with a BRD in PT for prelude, this is why RNG/WAR prevails in XP PTs. Even tho RNG/NIN is *safer* for the RNG, RNG/WAR will allow for the high xp chains with 1.5-2k damage sidewinders and 1k-1.5k arching arrows. (well those numbers were on darters, but you get the point)

Let's please stop the personal flaming, and just get this fact straight. For XP PT's, E-bow is the best bow hands down, if your PT is smart. As for gun vs bow, I don't know :sweat:

Originally posted by imac2much
.....You *do* realize that, by the nature of the game and EXP CHAIN system, damage in bursts is far more important and vital than damage over time right?

This is the main draw for E-bow.

[...]

So WHAT?? That's not the point of smart parties. You want damage in bursts. E-bow allows that. There's no question its sidewinders and arching arrows do more damage than any other bow. And with a BRD in PT for prelude, this is why RNG/WAR prevails in XP PTs.
/sea all RNG 60-75

DRK/THF > DRK/WAR because you can use it in more parties with greater safety after SC. While a super PLD might be able to grab hate back after fully buffed /WAR Spinslash, what if you don't have a PLD tank? Raise?

The entire point of /NIN is increased total damage via better DPS (accuracy and extra hate buffer). If you want to talk about exp chains, a missed Sidewinder will stop your chain right there, won't it?

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
/sea all RNG 60-75

DRK/THF > DRK/WAR because you can use it in more parties with greater safety after SC. While a super PLD might be able to grab hate back after fully buffed /WAR Spinslash, what if you don't have a PLD tank? Raise?

The entire point of /NIN is increased total damage via better DPS (accuracy and extra hate buffer). If you want to talk about exp chains, a missed Sidewinder will stop your chain right there, won't it?

You seriously need to stay on track Dan. I don't want to flame or attack anyone, I hope you have the same respect. However, why do you need to nitpick at every single word I say without even discussing my actual POINT?

The POINT is that damage in bursts is more favorable than damage over time due to the xp chain system.

You want to argue that? Fine, argue that, I'm sure we can keep it a mature and intelligent discussion. However, stop bringing in obscure and *off-topic* points with the sole purpose of attempting to belittle my words.

I said RNG/WAR is favorable for the PT. Most RNG use /NIN at high level, however, so that they die less. It's common knowledge that RNG/WAR will die MUCH more often than RNG/NIN. However, which PT will make more XP assuming your tank is competent? The one with the RNG/WAR.

I have partied with SEVERAL RNG/WAR's in the past 3 or 4 levels since I returned from my hiatus. Only twice has a RNG/WAR died, and that was due to random bad luck. (RNG/WAR pulls the mob's hate with buffed up sidewinder so DRK/THF or THF can trick Shark Bite/Spin Slash on me... in that 5 second moment of vulnerability the Bark Spider ate the RNG with a well-timed Sickle Slash)

This may seem funny but... you know something weird? I don't remember a single Sidewinder ever missing in skillchain with these RNG/WARs. Recall that I said BRD is very important for RNG/WAR. With Hunter Prelude, Unlimited Shot+PPA (+40 ranged acc with that arrow alone), the RNG has never missed a Sidewinder, much less an Arching Arrow (which is use more prevalently past 66 anyway for Shark Bite and Spinning Slash). So please stop trying to take my words off track with some random comments.

Yes, I can keep hate from a DRK/WAR's Spin Slash. It generally does only about 6-700 damage. The problem is if they stack LR + SE at the same time... but a smart DRK won't do this anyway.

Don't have a PLD? Then get one. If you have a NIN, then OBVIOUSLY hate management is more important. I'm not even talking about this, I don't know why you have to bring this up. But FYI I'd *assume* (as I have no experience since I don't have a NIN) that RNG/WAR with BRD is perfect for this setup, since he can turn the mob without fail with Sidewinder/Arching arrow so the THF or /THF can trick onto the NIN.

The point of /NIN is slightly more DoT but more importantly the safety of the RNG. This is of course important as well, since a dear RNG/WAR will definitely cut back from your XP and PT's XP as you wait for rez sickness to go away. I said that in an ideal PT setup with good players, the nature of the xp chain system favors bursts of damage.

If you want to debate this, I would like to hear your arguments, I don't assume that I am the master of this game, and I'm sure as hell there are tons of things I do not know. But from my experience this is how I see the game. If you respond to my post, please try not to go off topic just to attack some example I threw in to prove a point. Respond to the point itself. Thank you.

I was addressing your point, albeit indirectly.

The point is that the additional burst damage is not necessarily more important (or beneficial) than overall DPS. You cite /WAR as proof that burst damage is more important, yet the vast majority of high-level RNGs sub NIN. (And as you mentioned, dying affects party exp flow, so that is a real factor.)

Furthermore, your argument is somewhat marginal anyway... you assume that a higher DPS weapon (or at least, the weapons in question) would be incapable or ineffective at chain 5 bursting, when that's likely the opposite of the case; higher accuracy + longer delay = more damage and TP from Barrage, which means you get a 2nd WS sooner.

I'm glad we can keep this civil.

Actually, I was not actually citing /WAR as proof for anything. The initial point I was using as a given, is that /WAR does damage in *bursts* whereas /NIN does (perhaps) slightly more damage over time (though this is debatable).

I mean, I'm confused: are you trying to make yet another debate in this thread of 100 conflicts? Are you now saying that E-bow does NOT do larger damage in bursts than other bows? I felt that you assumed this as well as me, since your arguments pointed out that "People think Sarga is better than Battle Bow+1 because they see bigger numbers, though this may not be the case".

I'm addressing this point directly: You see bigger numbers with E-bow. Is this what you are debating now? Because if so, we are definitely on different pages... I didn't know this was even worth debating. I don't exactly need a parser to see which *numbers* are bigger.

Since you must have missed this since you didn't respond to this at all, let me state this again:
With a BRD for prelude and competent equipment on the RNG, the RNG/WAR will not only outdamage RNG/NIN in bursts but be very close, if not better, as /NIN over time. The bursts part I can 100% attest to since I do not need a parser for this. The DoT is more debatable, but just from what I've seen. I mean, these RNG/WAR don't use Unlimited Shot + PPA for every sidewinder due to refresh time, yet they still never miss as long as they have good equipment and Hunter's Prelude. So what makes you think they will miss drastically more than /NIN? The very REAL and easily proven fact is that /WAR will do a much stronger WS than /NIN. This is *NOT* debatable.

Do you know why most RNG sub NIN at high levels? Because for a pickup PT you can never know if your tank is credible or capable or not. It is overall safer and smarter to sub NIN so you don't die, losing precious xp and wasting time from xp'ing. It is not because NIN does much more damage or contributes to higher chains. The fact is, RNG are so powerful that even with lesser damage of /NIN they can do more damage in bursts than most other DD melees, with the exception of perhaps DRK/THF.

Also let me repeat that post 66 RNG use Arching instead of SW anyway, which almost never misses, even without a BRD in PT. And the amount of TP you make from Barrage doesn't matter much unless your RNG is not involved in skillchains... RNG always gains tp faster than the other melees regardless.

On a sidenote and off topic, RNG soloing WS is actually not as bad as you may think. In this case, I think I would prefer RNG/NIN in setup since we are not worried about damage in bursts, but high damage all the time. My PT setup was RNG/NIN, PLD/WAR, WAR/THF, BLM, RDM, BRD. As you probably know, WAR/THF is generally not used for hate management.. it is just the most damaging sub for a DD WAR (sneak attack for WS). I mean, who would he have tricked onto anyway, the RNG? oO RNG/NIN is much easier to keep hate from than a RNG/WAR, so I almost always had the mob on me, except when the RNG busted out with SW, barrage, SW (ouch!). As for skillchains, WAR and I did Mistral Axe > Spinning Slash so the BLM could burst Firaga III. (Who says PLD can't deal damage? I was Spin Slashing for 450-650 every time ^^) Think I made 5k an hour in this PT, very sweet. But very unconventional...

Originally posted by imac2much
Actually, I was not actually citing /WAR as proof for anything. The initial point I was using as a given, is that /WAR does damage in *bursts* whereas /NIN does (perhaps) slightly more damage over time (though this is debatable).
But you cited this point with the qualification that /WAR "prevails in exp PTs" because of it. /WAR doesn't seem to prevail in exp PTs at all, based on numbers of people actually using it. (This is not a /NIN vs. /WAR argument, but simply saying that the claim that maximum burst damage = superior is tenuous at best.)

Are you now saying that E-bow does NOT do larger damage in bursts than other bows?
In general, I'm sure it does. But that doesn't necessarily outweigh better overall damage, and the other weapon solutions should do enough burst damage (especially with better Barrages) to make the burst difference a non-issue, with equal subjobs.

With a BRD for prelude and competent equipment on the RNG, the RNG/WAR will not only outdamage RNG/NIN in bursts but be very close, if not better, as /NIN over time.
I cannot respond to this argument without turning this thread into a full-blown /NIN vs. /WAR discussion. With a BRD and prelude+minuet, we are stepping firmly into the realm of shadows vs. non-shadows arguments.

You're correct Dan, it was my fault for bringing up the whole subjob debate since we were not even debating this.

The only reason I brought it up was because I generally found /WAR doing more burst damage than /NIN even with barrage being slightly higher for /NIN (I barely turn on any chat filters so I see everyone's damage). But I suppose this is beside the point and I shouldn't have brought this into the discussion.

What can't really be argued with (and you have likewise agreed) is that E-bow does much higher damage in bursts, i.e. WS, allowing for the xp chains to end quicker. I don't see how the 5 extra RNG ACC from MC Bow will allow for suddenly superbly impressive Barrages compared to E-bow. True, MC Bow will gain more TP in barrages due to higher delay, but that 5 RNG ACC will not make you suddenly hit 2-3 more hits with every barrage than someone using E-bow. If this was the case, I don't think people would ever use Franciscas, and instead just keep the Hawkers.

So even if MC Bow may hit a few more times with its 5 extra RNG ACC (debatable at best), E-bow user can still make sure he has that extra TP or barrage ready for the last chain, then unleash it to kill it as fast as possible... doing more damage in that burst than someone with MC Bow.

P.S. Let's try not to be close-minded and stubborn (all parties, no one in particular). I just wanted to bring up a factor that some readers may not have realized. This shouldn't be a contest to see whose ego is larger than the other... I was hoping for an open-minded forum and conversation, I'm sure we can achieve this :thumbsup:

I think that over the course of one thousand Sidewinders you would be able to determine whether accuracy bonuses make a difference. Let's keep sample size in perspective, here. I'm not talking about missing 5 Sidewinders in a row (i.e. "a bad day") or anything of such tiny statistical value.

1000 sidewinders? You never said that. This is exactly what you said, so either make your wording clear or stop making up stuff. This is what you posted.

1) If you have markedly less accuracy over a significant number of attacks (1000+ shots is certainly significant) then you didn't have "an off day." You had worse accuracy and you were beaten because of it. Small differences in accuracy rating can make a big difference in net accuracy.

I'll let you think on that one.

That's great, but you're sidestepping my point. I was the one who brought up the fact that logs showed Sarnga winning (contrary to popular estimation from eyeball damage parsing), so explaining why it wins is preaching to the choir.

My question is, how do you know that Sarnga loses at LV59? You're just eyeballing accuracy and supposing that Sarnga's accuracy won't make a difference against non-high-evasion mobs.

I already said Sarnga's accuracy is better post 60 because of the enemies you level on. At lvl 60, most of the stuff you use to level on (Raptors, sand cockatrice) become VT or Low IT so that their evasion is no longer a concern, and doesn't classify as accurate data as they're not "IT" mobs. I've also done a small test with sarnga coming out on top. I personally perfer the sarnga after finally using it, so don't put words in my mouth.

10% is still 10%! If it's over one party, or one hundred, it's still 10%! It affects the outcome EXACTLY the same (by ten percent)!

In a big enough sample size, 10% is an acceptable deviation for testing purposes. I'm not saying there's a 10% accuracy deviation, I'm saying its a deviation taking into account of "bad days", crappy tanks, and other random circumstances. But i'm sure you already know that.

I will send you a stack of silvers (or demons, if you prefer) if you actually get 90% accuracy against IT mobs with an O-bow.

Thanks? :confused:

in any case the parser is no absolute final to anything. Its been known to screw up and there's a lot more things to take into account like tank's ability, party setup, enemy types, etc. I don't want to bother with parsers myself, its a waste of time for me because I personally don't care about the statics. I'll probably never own an E-bow because of its ridiculous price, so I'll be using O-bow, M.Cst Bow, and Guns all the way through... so I don't care much.

You on the other hand who seem to care much more than I do about actual stats... go ahead and parse them. its all zzzz to me.

Originally posted by poweryoga
1000 sidewinders? You never said that. This is exactly what you said, so either make your wording clear or stop making up stuff. This is what you posted.
You're missing the point. I said that 1000 shots is a good enough sample size to judge accuracy and eliminate "bad day" factor. Then you responded with:

Everyone has on and off days. One day I can hit every single sidewinder at 100% tp, other day I can miss every single shot at 300% tp. Its luck and its a randomness factor you'll have to accept as margin of error.

Since your example switches the sample from overall shots to WSes, I suggested that with a sample size of over 1000 WSes, random luck would be virtually eliminated.

In a big enough sample size, 10% is an acceptable deviation for testing purposes. I'm not saying there's a 10% accuracy deviation, I'm saying its a deviation taking into account of "bad days", crappy tanks, and other random circumstances. But i'm sure you already know that.
Then you're arguing a totally different subject. I'm talking about one weapon (with better accuracy) having a marked accuracy advantage over another. As I understand it, your response is that that higher accuracy will not matter because random luck will always overpower it, no matter the sample size. Like I said, if this is the case, there's just no point in buying any good accuracy equipment at all.

How about equipping Musketeers Gun +1.

Highest barrage TP, highest damage per shot, highest dmg in your WS.


(I didnt really read the whole thread, so dont get mad!)

maybe you're missing the point. 1000 shots is not a big enough sample. I hit that many shots in a good exp party and that doesn't account for nearly enough data at all. That alone does NOT eliminate "random luck" or "bad day", because if that many shots can be covered in ONE EXP SESSION, IT IS TOO SMALL.

or maybe you mean vodka shots, i don't know. make yourself clearer.

Since your example switches the sample from overall shots to WSes, I suggested that with a sample size of over 1000 WSes, random luck would be virtually eliminated.

Since your example switches the sample from overall shots to WSes, I suggested that with a sample size of over 1000 WSes, random luck would be virtually eliminated

I use that as an example of "bad day" as an example, not "omg change subject to WS plz". with 1000 WSes, random luck WOULD be virtually eliminated, with a set amount percentage error for "off days". "Bad days" don't dissapear automatically when you collect a large data size you know. Also, you never actually said "1000 Wses", all you said was "1000 shots, 1000 shots..." 1000 shots doesn't mean what you WANT it to, it means exactly what the word means... It can be WSes, Normal arrows, or fucking vodka. You're not expecting me read your mind for the hidden meaning inside your virtual post are you? :rolleyes:

Then you're arguing a totally different subject. I'm talking about one weapon (with better accuracy) having a marked accuracy advantage over another. As I understand it, your response is that that higher accuracy will not matter because random luck will always overpower it, no matter the sample size. Like I said, if this is the case, there's just no point in buying any good accuracy equipment at all.

You're right, I am. Since you've been arguing over a huge amount of subjects, you point fingers at ME for countering your myriad amount of arguments?

I don't know where you got the reference from that higher accuracy doesn't matter. It doesn't matter AS MUCH at my level many many times. Maybe you should read more carefully because I've said that in the beginning already. Also, you completely missed my point again. I said 10% deviation is ACCEPTABLE for a large enough sample size. I never said "random luck outweight everything", you're just putting words in my mouth or making stupid references. Reread my posts, i don't feel like posting the same crap over and over again.

Really, learn to read, I've posted that same crap like 5 times already. I feel like talking to a wall, because all I get are echos of me repeating myself and you completely miss what the hell i'm trying to say. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I can see anything else I'm going to say is just going to be twisted by you into another meaning suited just for the sake of bashing my arguments while you completly avoid my points. I'll be over there doing something else that's not wasting time with you. If you have anything you are not clear of, reread my posts, you'll find all the info you need there 3 or 4 times over. :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

Originally posted by poweryoga
maybe you're missing the point. 1000 shots is not a big enough sample. I hit that many shots in a good exp party and that doesn't account for nearly enough data at all. That alone does NOT eliminate "random luck" or "bad day", because if that many shots can be covered in ONE EXP SESSION, IT IS TOO SMALL.
And WHY is it too small? It is a sample size of ONE THOUSAND! Jesus christ, do you not understand basic statistics? Do you think that your accuracy magically gets worse because it's Tuesday, no matter how many shots you fire?

Your "bad day" argument is an BS excuse, period. In case you can't figure it out, the REASON one uses a sample size of one thousand is to account for bad luck! The mind boggles!

1000 shots will tell you exactly what your accuracy is. If you are saying that it won't, you better have some hard evidence to explain WHY, instead of this "I got up on the wrong side of the bed, it can't be explained!" crap.

If ranger A and ranger B fire 1000 shots at the same mobs in the same party, and ranger A has better total accuracy at the end, then guess what? Ranger A has better accuracy! Shocking, I know! (And please, spare me the "I missed three Sidewinders in a row so today doesn't count!" garbage.)

You complain about talking to a brick wall; give me a f*cking break. I'm trying to actually approach the problem with logged data and statistics (i.e. actual scientific inquiry); meanwhile, you just want to stand around and attribute everything to bad days. I'm getting tired of trying to explain the obvious benefit of logged data. If you still can't understand the extremely simple fact of LOGGED COMPARISON > UNLOGGED COMPARISON, then you are just a hopeless idiot, and you can't be reasoned with. Have fun with that.

So how do you know hit rate does not vary from day to day? Do you have logs proving it doesnt?

Originally posted by greysenn
So how do you know hit rate does not vary from day to day? Do you have logs proving it doesnt?
How do you know hit rate doesn't vary by amount of items you have in your inventory? How do you know accuracy doesn't change the more you use one weapon? What about phase of the moon?

We can sit around all day and think up all sorts of superstitious "factors" that influence the game. The onus is on the person making the claim to provide the evidence.

Now, I could (and would) be perfectly willing to provide a log showing that 10% accuracy increase = substantial damage output difference (in fact, there are enough existing logs for me to do this offhand). But what would be the point? You have already dismissed 10% accuracy difference as being within the realm of a "bad day" anyway. (And naturally, proof of this "bad day" theory is non-existant and not likely to appear, given the distaste for actual logging that seems to prevalent in this thread.)

If someone shows me two logs, same level, same equipment, same party setup, where over the course of 1000 shots there is a 10%+ accuracy difference between one day and another, then I'll believe in this "bad day" theory. Until then, anecdotal evidence about how "I missed a bunch of Sidewinders one day but landed a bunch on another day" won't cut it.

So you're putting forth a hypothesis that a sample in a given time frame won't vary from those in another.

I'm putting for the hypothesis that they can, and probably do. I find it funny you can simply dismiss that as mere supersticion when day/moon affects or is suspected to affect nearly everything else.

Now, I could (and would) be perfectly willing to provide a log showing that 10% accuracy increase = substantial damage output difference (in fact, there are enough existing logs for me to do this offhand).

No need to, I don't doubt it. Nor do I need to produce logs that a significant attack increase will produce similar results.

Originally posted by greysenn
So you're putting forth a hypothesis that a sample in a given time frame won't vary from those in another.

I'm putting for the hypothesis that they can, and probably do. I find it funny you can simply dismiss that as mere supersticion when day/moon affects or is suspected to affect nearly everything else.
Actually, to clarify, I'm saying that if you think hit rates vary by day, prove it. You're the one(s) making the claim that hit rate is being affected by some factor that the log is not accounting for.

This whole line of reasoning is flawed anyway; if you're saying that you think hit rate is affected by day/moon, in a direct comparison (like the gun/e-bow log that started this) both players would be equally affected, so the net impact is zero.

No need to, I don't doubt it. Nor do I need to produce logs that a significant attack increase will produce similar results.
The problem, then, is determining how much difference more accuracy makes. Does MC's better accuracy put it over the top in total damage vs. E-bow? We'll never know unless we see logs.

Here's a log i recorded last night, i hope it helps you!

That looks about right.

And WHY is it too small? It is a sample size of ONE THOUSAND! Jesus christ, do you not understand basic statistics? Do you think that your accuracy magically gets worse because it's Tuesday, no matter how many shots you fire?

Ok, so if I have a sample size of 10, you're saying the accuracy rates will be exactly the same as you get 10000 shots.

Give me a break. Anybody with half ass knowledge knows the statistics become more accurate with higher sample size taken. Small amounts like 1000 shots increases your error margin beyond acceptable levels simply because there's not enough data to make a good average, but I'm sure you already know that given your abudant knowledge of statics as a whole already. :zzz:

1000 shots will tell you exactly what your accuracy is. If you are saying that it won't, you better have some hard evidence to explain WHY, instead of this "I got up on the wrong side of the bed, it can't be explained!" crap.

Hello? Do you speak English? Am I typing in slang or Ebonics or spanish such that you don't understand what I have said? I never said "Bad day affects your statistics everyday so that it can't be explained", i said "since you can hit 1000 shots in an exp party, you can attribute that to a bad day because you hit that in 1 exp session." a "Bad day" is within acceptable error margin in the long run or within a big log of whatever data you've collected.

AND i keep on repeating myself 1000 is too small of a sample size. It'll tell you your accuracy FOR THE SESSION, not your accuracy for even the whole level. I don't know why you think 1000 is such a big number. Its a TINY number.

Stop attributing whatever i say to bad luck. I never did, I say it CAN affect your stats, but up to a 10% reasonable error margin, but you're the one putting that shit in my mouth. Stop fucking yourself over please.

You have already dismissed 10% accuracy difference as being within the realm of a "bad day" anyway. (And naturally, proof of this "bad day" theory is non-existant and not likely to appear, given the distaste for actual logging that seems to prevalent in this thread.)

Here we go with the "bad day" crap again. Reread my posts, I believe they are in english and easy for even the dumbest person to understand provided you actually READ it.

I'm trying to actually approach the problem with logged data and statistics (i.e. actual scientific inquiry); meanwhile, you just want to stand around and attribute everything to bad days. I'm getting tired of trying to explain the obvious benefit of logged data. If you still can't understand the extremely simple fact of LOGGED COMPARISON > UNLOGGED COMPARISON, then you are just a hopeless idiot, and you can't be reasoned with. Have fun with that.

What's this stupid crap with bad days? Oh yeah, I never attributed bad days to all errors.

I totally understand the values of logged data Vs Unlogged data. I'm just unwilling to waste my time for you, seeing how you have spurred me to think this is nothing but a waste of time trying to argue to a brick wall, and that even if I posted the results, you'll just ignore it and nitpick on some wording usage and attribute my arguments to "bad days" when I only said it can affect your results, not that it "dominates" it. If I want to collect data, it'll be over a set of levels, not over 1 exp session and call it "Ok! done!"

Please, learn to read, get a clue, and come back later. Clear your head, read the information, and come back and post when you don't cloud your head with stupid angry thoughts on "omg he doesn't listen".

You're the one not listening, a lot of your points CAN be valid if you actually put some thoughts into making it instead of wildly pointing fingers on something I don't even believe is right.

here's stuff I posted for your convenience, re-read it again and see how wrong your wild accusations are. Your arguments are valid and something I would've thought about looking into until you stopped listening and started putting words in my mouth.

Also yes, its valid to see how much more damage M.Cst.Bow would do over E-bow or vice versa. You can do it yourself when you hit 71, I don't really want to waste any more time with you.

I use that as an example of "bad day" as an example, not "omg change subject to WS plz". with 1000 WSes, random luck WOULD be virtually eliminated, with a set amount percentage error for "off days". "Bad days" don't dissapear automatically when you collect a large data size you know. Also, you never actually said "1000 Wses", all you said was "1000 shots, 1000 shots..." 1000 shots doesn't mean what you WANT it to, it means exactly what the word means... I

Maybe you should read more carefully because I've said that in the beginning already. Also, you completely missed my point again. I said 10% deviation is ACCEPTABLE for a large