SO... what were the benefits of thf sub?

[Wings of Icarus]

Title says it.

In like 99 % of the pts I ended up in, they've always asked me to sub thf.... I personally hate that... the slow tp building and lowered damage were too much of an impact for the job combination to be useful, imho.

First issue I'll address:

1. Hate Control: Since I started subbing thf 66 + I've encountered this problem; I'm partying with a Ranger, and by the time I have enough TP built up to skillchain with thf sub, the Paladin has so much hate built up that the Ranger can't pull the mob off of the PLD, so I have to end up either A. Sneak Attack + Spinning Slash (which promptly puts the mob on me, forcing me to bust out my phalanx rings and carapace armor and hope I don't get smacked around too hard, like some bastard child) or B. SATA Spinning Slash the Ranger (which they will NEVER agree to). If I do a normal Spinning Slash, the mob almost never turns, if it does, ( WHICH IS RARE)it's usually dead a few seconds afterwords from the MB (versus the mob turning on me everytime I do a Sneak Attack + Spinning Slash, the mage spends more MP healing me)-- more MP would've been saved versus a situation where SATA Spinning Slash is part of the renkei and "save" is called: more time is spent killing the mob, more MP is spent healing the tank.

If the PLD has no problem holding hate, then why the hell do I need to sub THF for a 900 + dmg WS every other battle when I can do a 600 dmg WS every battle? Hate control is useless in this situation. The only time I see that the "Hate Control" argument actually is valid is when I'm in a PT with a Ninja, and how many Ninja do you think I party with? A Thief doesn't have this issue... they have triple attack & dual wield/double attack depending on what subjob they use... they'll gain tp almost every round of damage, whereas us DRKs have a high delay weapon, we cannot afford to miss, and miss we do.

2. Damage: By subbing THF, we lower our DoT and reduce the number of times we're ready for SC, lowering the max xp/hr we can gain. When I sub thf and I see the Ranger never missing a hit, hitting harder than I do by atleast 50 dmg and gains TP insanely fast, why the hell am I even needed ?

Samurai sub allows DRK: to be ready for one or more renkei every battle, upping the XP/HR and DoT we're capable of...
14 TP per connected hit (with great sword) and 60 free tp is hard to argue with.

Warrior sub: Berserk, Double Attack -- With Double Attack you're already gaining TP faster as opposed to thf sub, and you're upping your DMG per swing with Berserk.

So what's the point of doing a pretty skillchain with decent numbers every so often, if you're severly gimping yourself?

I'm sorry to say, because of many parties asking that I sub thief, and thus leading to incredibly poor xp/hr, thus leading to my never being invited again, I've retired DRK.

I'm going WHM/BLM, now.

EDIT: I don't hate DRK, in fact I loved the DRK job class until i reached the level where conventional wisdom states that every drk must be drk/thf.

[Vicynax]

Your paladin is suppose to hold enough hate to keep on him at all times until the ranger bust out arching arrows. 99% of the time when I partied with pld/rng/dk, ranger has the aggro after using /ws. Then when you do your SATA+Spin, it's almost gonna be permanently pld's hate for the rest of the battle, which should last for most 10+ seconds.

Either your pld doesn't know what he's doing, or your rangers purely and most pathetically suck at putting out dmg at turning the mob. As for TP building, I've always reached 100%+ at about 40-50% of mob's hp. So I really don't know how you can be doing /WS every other battle. That is way too slow. If you were doing /WS every other battle that would mean all dmg were outputted by rng during those rounds, then I doubt even the greatest pld can hold aggro off that ranger which contradicts yours statement of pld holding too much hate.

There's a reason for subbing thf.. and the reason is....

No one besides the damn pld is getting hit. It's not always about your dmg. It's about combined dmg. Maybe you don't get the concept.

[Wings of Icarus]

Sure, I get 100 + TP every battle by the time the mob is at 50 % health or so, (if starting from 0-12% tp at the start of the battle) but what's a 500 + dmg arching arrow + a 900 Spinning Slash + up to 900 dmg or more light dmg + a 1000 dmg BLM MB gonna do to a mob? Can you say overkill ? Not to mention renkei'ing every battle with thf sub is a nice way to set yourself up for never making a chain #5 (Unless you build tp on #4 and use souleater to close it in time for #5, but it seems to never happen this way, and chain is lost on 4).

Sure if RNG subbed war they could probably pull the hate from the PLD, but most of the RNG population only subs Ninja, so what am I to do? Simply put, a RNG/NIN WILL NOT pull hate from a PLD even half trying to hold hate, a circa 500 dmg Arching Arrow/Heavy Shot can't do it.

Due to the party dynamics, I guess it's not viable for ME to play a Dark Knight at the moment. Or maybe I just don't get the concept, like you said.

[iforget]

if you're doing the every other battle renkei thing, do the skillchain at or near the start of the fight so you can be assured the mob will turn. TP is erratic so you cant do it all the time, but it helps to do it whenever possible. Other than that there's not much you can do, other than find a blm who keeps aware of the situation and nukes harder on #0,2, and 4. Hopefully your ranger can time his barrages for non-chain along with ur souleater (plds nightmare i guess, but your tank sounds sticky as glue)

[gix]

a blm is key in the tp accumulation rounds, and also key in SC rounds. SC rounds is usually 1 shot, but chain 4 is tricky your PT will have to use most of the tricks in its arsenal to save the TP for chain 5.

[Amadeus]

I'm the other way around...warrior is a snooze-fest to play. I don't entirely see why you think a guaranteed critical hit is worse for TP gain than double attack, which goes off randomly and is not a guaranteed hit.

As for why thief sub 65+ is recommended, Sneak/Trick allows you to place the hate (obviously depending on party structure) safely on someone else who can take hits, doing 2 things:

1) Reducing the amount of damage the GROUP needs to heal you.

2) Allowing you to use Souleater for a full minute and not get hit once. (and even using Souleater upon skill to start it)

Then again, I like thief, and not warrior, so I'm a little biased.

[Awntawn]

RNG's around the world need to know this:

RNG/NIN is for parties without a hate controller. With a THF or /THF, they NEED to use WAR sub, else it fucks the PT over bigtime. I suppose with a DRK/THF and NIN tank, arching/heavy is enough to pull the hate for renkei, but for PT's with THF, they won't be able to use seperate sneak + trick, which really brings down the THF's damage potential.

[Zaptruder]

It's the paladin's job to make sure that he has just enough hate, until the thief's /thf's renkei partner is ready.

Otherwise, he has to create enough hate to hold past WS+WS+SATA... which is much harder and more tiring then the former.

[Stolin]

Hmm i'm with icarus here on this one. I think THF sub is most useful for the DRK if they are ending the skillchain. If his party isn't letting him TA on the tank there really is no point in him subbing thf. If they are asking him to sub thf just for the extra 300 dmg on the WS hes right its not worth it.

Icarus take a break from EXPing. DRK can be used else where. Do ballista a few times with DRK/NIN and soul eater+rampage spam. I know still a lot of people haven't tried ballista so im trying to spread the word lol.

[Stolin]

I'm really not understanding the party dynamics (der im stupid). So only one of the melees is subbing warrior? And you are ending the SC? If its like this the RNG really needs to sub warrior if your acting as the thf to get the hate off the PLD so you can SA/TA and end the SC on the PLD. If the RNG isn't pulling hate off the PLD its not your fault your unhappy with what your PT is doing.

[Langolier]

Meh, I personally don't want to sub THF at all, I can't stand anything about the class. This has given me the courage to try and get up to Spinning Slash and beyond without that damn sub.

[iforget]

Just as an aside, spinning slash seems even less accurate than vorpal scythe, so the SA really helps to avoid the "dammit missed ><;"

[Langolier]

I've never thought that Vorpal Scythe was that innaccurate. It only ever missed very occassionally. ..but I don't care, I think I'm about ready to quit DRK all-together, probably the whole game.

[BuriGuri]

Some reasons I see for sub thf :

1. You compare 600 damage with war sub vs thf sub, but you forgot to factor in the ws damage.
Simple facts :
for 2 part renkei : Assuming 600damage spin slash, and unresisted light damage, 900 or 1200 total damage with war sub.
1350 or 1800 damage with thf sub. That quite a big damage difference.

2. Due to nature of exp chain, big numbers are preferable over DoT.

3. Yes good Paladins can hold enough hate for whatever damage dealers can throw at him. However can they do that right at the start ? you dont have time to buildup hate when your aiming for that chain 5. Im pretty sure no matter how good the pld is that he wont held that 1300+ blm's MB right at the very start.

As to your problems, others have made some good suggestions.
asking the ranger to sub war, or asking the paladins to reduce his hate abit sounds reasonable to me. Hell my ninja have had ocassion when I have to hold back abit simply because 600 damage arching doesnt turn the monster. Alternatively like someone had suggested, you can ask the paladin to go all out.
Yes some paladins are so good that sneaked spinning slash mid battle dont move the mob at all. (experienced it before believe it or not).

[Mikasa]

Originally posted by Langolier
Meh, I personally don't want to sub THF at all, I can't stand anything about the class. This has given me the courage to try and get up to Spinning Slash and beyond without that damn sub.

won't ever happen.

level your THF sub asap.

[Langolier]

^
The static doesn't seem to mind. Two things will happen, they won't mind and I'll continue lvling, or I'll just quit DRK and go something else.

[truong]

Like people have suggested, have the RNG sub /WAR. It'll solve all your problems. Provoke > Arching Arrow will grab hate no matter how good your PLD is. But... against certain mobs with strong attacks that are capable of one shotting the RNG (scorpions, spiders, tigets) this is really dangerous for the RNG with their mage defense. So the only way to make a team of PLD/WAR DRK/THF and RNG/WAR is to pray that your PLD is good and experienced. Experienced meaning he knows exactly how much hate he needs, not too much that a RNG can't peel it off him, but just enough that when the mob is hit with arching arrow, it'll turn. Remember, a good PLD knows how to keep hate, but a great PLD knows how and when to lose it. Another thing you can do is ask the PLD to disengage or turn away from the mob a few seconds prior to the SC, this also helps big time. If the PLD has this down, this is arguably the best set up a DRK/THF could be in later levels.

And no, DRK/WAR does not do more damage than a DRK/THF after 65. DRK/WAR will never be able to fully use Soul Eater without killing the mages MP. And to whoever said that their PT does not mind him using DRK/WAR, they WILL mind once they see how useful DRK/THF is and how inferior DRK/WAR is to /THF. Better level up /THF now before it's too late.

[little ninja]

what i dont get is this. if icarus's pt is not having any problems holding hate, then really part of thf sub is wasted. an while yes it does lead to a lower damage ws, to much damage is really overkill, unless you weapon skill right off the bat. or really early in the fight, things i really never see.

now i feel a drk/thf is very well needed when a nin is blink tanking. its just easier for us to hold that hate without us spaming throwing items, an ninja powders.


basically the high lvl drks are all right. all pt's after the 60's wants a thf sub, even if the pld holds hate "like flies on shit." an that for a drk/thf to work with a ranger. the ranger must use war sub. so i say dont quit drk. next pt invite with a rng/nin. tell him he'd best change the sub to war..

[eraw]

Another reason I think the Thf sub is preferred, is that it guarantees that your weapon skill will land.

[BuriGuri]

Originally posted by little ninja
unless you weapon skill right off the bat. or really early in the fight, things i really never see.


Which is what you want to do for chain 5 ? considering a chain + MB would leave a mob with like 10-20% hp.

[Langolier]

It may all be true, but I'm not lvling THF eitherway. I did not become a DRK so that I could lvl THF. I can't stand the job, and I'm sure as hell not taking it up another 30 lvls. (it's lvl 7.) We'll see how things go.

[Legend]

I don't like thief either, in fact Dark and War are my favorite jobs, which made me glad that they can be combined successfully.

I'm in the mid 30's I really don't ever want to sub Thief, even if Im losing out on a potential 600 dmg and this is only on SC's? What about Berzerk? Can't that make up a little damage over time. And how often will a ranger /war be in your PT every time after 60.

Well I lvl slow, I have a long time until 60+ I won't dwell on it now.

[Kosy]

A friend pointed me to this thread ... here's my own comment, although I have not yet gotten to 60 for TA yet ...

Just from my own observation, /THF really lower DOT by a whole lot. Some of the numbers thrown about are utter bullsh*t. The normal DOT numbers are really different. I subbed THF last night on my DRK for expp the first time ever. Let me tell you, it down right sucked. SA normal < Double Attack. I get Double Attack 2-3 times per battle FYI. Also, without Berserk, my normal damage was significantly lower - roughly 30 to 50 dmg points per swing lower at times on a lowered monster's defense - and this was off of Goblins and Lizards at Cape Teriggan. I can get about 10 good solid hits on the monster per battle on average (less if the monster dies fast more if the monster is highly resistive to spells and has defense/evasion boosts). This difference in normal DOT can translate to roughly 300 to 500 damage per battle.

Granted, I have no meaningful weapon skill to stack SA with at this point (Slice.)(No thank you.) However, I cannot imagine any /THF adding that much more in damage to using a weapon skill normally. Everyone has been saying adding DEX to a /THF job will not increase or do anything for SA. If that's the case, then the same should be true with SA in general. That is must be totally gimped on a sub versus on THF main.

In short, unless you do not have a hate controller (Main THF), I wouldn't bother with /THF. It only makes the total team effort really gimp overall.

[surlung]

all this discussion doensn't mean much. You need to see why /thf is good for yourself. /thf doesn't change the original character of the drk, it just extends drk's capability.

DRK is so good at high level because playstyle can change dramatically with two subjobs... don't let this trait goto a waste.

[truong]

Kosy: Sub /WAR from 1-65. This is the best option for DRK now that they nerfed the tp return. Don't even bother subbing /THF until level 65. Once you hit 65, sub /THF, once you get first hand taste of SA/TA Cross Reaper for 700+1000 on to the tank, bust out Soul Eater to finish the 5th mob in record time, then come back and tell me /WAR does more damage 65+.

And damnit people, stop saying DoT. 99% of you don't even know what DoT is. Repeat after me: DoT means JACK SHIT in exp pt. When you're in an experience PT, no one gives a shit how much damage you can do over the course of 1 day; we want to know how much damage you can do right now, in this battle, this particular chain. DoT = made up horse shit by MNK fanboys.

[surlung]

one more thing people are undermining about /thf subjob.

Cross reaper without sa = 400-550 at best. Sometimes miss first hit.
Cross reaper with sa = 600-1000 - 600 if second hit miss.

Spin Slash without sa = 400-600, misses alot (kind of like vorpal)
spin slash with sa = 700-1000. Never miss.

Extra damage coming from NOT missing ws + extra damage from SA + extra damage from renkei = more than make up for DOT damage of warrior.

Sure, warrior is very good sj (Right now with berserk, warcry, double attack and provoke, it's very very good sub no doubt).

Have both, adapt your playing style.

[gix]

there isn't really a debate of whether to use /thf 65+, you just do.... Once the invites come flooding in, and you tell them you can't /thf and/or spin��ｗ, goodbye invite.
for those who static, you're doing them a disfavor by /war. there's a reason why people like cookie cutter job combinations, because it works!

[iforget]

if you are using cross reaper with a good pld, warrior sub is better imo. I've nailed several 1.0-1.5k souleater cross reapers with warrior sub (jaw droppage if double attack fires). This wont work on hi evasion mobs or if your paladin isnt up to snuff. (ie, cant keep hate off the blm during magic burst, so needs you to trick it.) The biggest downside is that the dmg is all over the place, ranging from 200-1500, so its a big letdown sometimes, and overkill at others. But you get to do them a lot more often :thumbsup: War sub good for 4 mage parties also.

for spinslash, sub thief.

[mezner]

The question you should really ask yourself when debating on subjobs is what kind of person are you? Do you only work at what's best for you, or what's best for your party. I want to be the most useful kind of DRK I can be, so I'm working on finishing up WAR, THF, SAM, NIN, and WHM as subjobs. If you decide to just stick to one subjob, you're really cutting yourself short and alternative party dynamics (and not just xp pts).

YMMV, but I had a complete blast leveling up THF. Nothing like sneaked Combo/Fast Blade to keep you @.@. A couple weeks of work now (that's how long I took to get my THF to 30 while still xping main) with save you some grief later on. Regardless of how stubborn you may be now about not leveling up THF, once you get Spinning Slash, you *will* break down and want Trick Attack.

[Langolier]

I "Broke down" and have decided to lvl THF. Mostly because my static left me in the dust while I was moving to a new house. Also because I just need a break from the game. It will probably now be at least another half year until I reach 75 DRK, if at all(might just quit all together). I've decided that I no longer like sub-jobs because now I have to lvl a job I have no interest in playing. Gosh, if that SATA nerf turned out to be true, I would be so devilishly happy. ::cruel smile::

[jmedno5891]

And I would cry:dead: