100% Naked Bard almost as good as Decked out Bard?

[Faranim]

I haven't done a whole lot of testing on this but I'm hoping to get opinions.

For my entire bard career, I was always focused on being the best Bard I can be. Making sure I had every song. Getting all of the best +CHR equipment as soon as it's available. Making sure to get AF quests done before level 60, etc.

A few nights ago I was leveling with a party on Aura Statues and I decided to try the group without any equipment on. Here's some info about my character:

With Equipment on:
Level 75, maxed singing and wind skills
70+70 CHR, along with an extra +5 Singing skill from AF1 Gloves.

Naked:
70 CHR, maxed singing and wind skills. The only piece of equipment I had on was an instrument.

The result was that, my songs were resisted SLIGHTLY more, but It still only took 3-4 tries to land Elegy (as opposed to the normal 1-3). Other songs would still land, just not quite as often.

So what is all the equipment for? does my millions of gil in equipment for +70 CHR really only make a 10-20% difference in resist rates? (I don't use elemental staff either)

What about party buffs? They are entirely skill based so they were the same strength regardless of my CHR.

The difference between being totally naked and fully decked out was not enough to justify spending that much money on the equipment.

Has anyone else done similar tests with equipment or has anything to say about this? It disappoints and frustrates me to realize that a Bard with absolutely no equipment is still just as good as one with millions of gil in equipment. I don't think that could be said for any other class in the game.

[Malachite]

This is exactly why I spend my money on HP & MP gear instead. The only things that seem to make a difference are my elemental staves. Even with Apollo Staff & about +60 CHR, requiem is frequently resisted. Elegy is almost never resisted while wielding an earth staff and having no +CHR. That's really all I need.

Stats only go so far in this game. A Thief/nin LS member had about +80 evasion at one point and it didn't make a damn difference unless she was fighting IT things, which she rarely is tanking.

That +STR and +ATK stuff is great for melees, but starts to become more and more worthless as you fight weaker opponents. For humor's sake, I can swap equipment on my bard to have about +30 strength, it helps only somewhat against EP which is just about the only time I have a chance to melee.

CHR is just about the biggest joke we have in the game. It helps a ton for a beastmaster's charms, but only goes so far with bards. The only time it really makes a difference is when you're doing BC where you need to keep multiple targets asleep for the same duration. Charm's resist rate importance is about akin to our lullaby, hence why BST are decked out in CHR & +Charm gear.


There's far too many soft caps in this game and our stats suffer because of it.

[Seeker_Onos]

*bump*

As a poor-assed BRD who has not the skill as a Tarutaru BRD to win BCNM40 regularly... and hence lacks income... I'm highly interested in this as I persue the highly frustrating life of farming and mining.

If what Faranim is saying is so - do I really need that high end equipment?

Can I be a contributing member to a PT with only my full AF, a Noble's Ribbon and other odds and ends?

Or is it more about the fact that people who look successful - draped in Vermillion cloaks or Dalmaticas or Gjallarhorns and the like are more likely to be invited to the HNMs and Dynamis and other nice endgame content?

In most of my PT setups I go with, landing threnodies and to a lesser extent, Requiem and Elegy are kind of a luxury item as I spend more time keeping the buff songs up and healing status ailments when we are short on a WHM, or the WHMs lobbing out cures on the current crop of monsters I face (Toramas in Onzozo ><; )

[Vilurum]

Carnage Elegy is not a luxury. Giving a monster 150% delay (plus whatever they get from Slow) makes a big difference in how much healing is needed in battle > better MP efficiency > bigger chains and/or (preferably and) no downtime. I cast Elegy before I start buffing the melees, and I recast it when I'm done buffing them if I was resisted.

Threnody can be overlooked if you're busy (but not if you have time to land it) since it's quite possible for nukes/debuffs to go mostly or totally unresisted without it (though remember, not as reliably).

All the same, it's only 2 seconds, it's not hard to throw it out after the melee buffs or something (especially since you need to kill time after that before rebuffing Ballad, if you used HQ instruments for the melee buffs and you want both Ballads on yourself).

And Requiem can be ignored (unless you wanna skillup) even if you're not busy, because the damage sucks unless you're comparing it to a solo BRD's smacking damage.

Lullaby is obviously not a luxury if you're in a position to be using it, but you already know that by level 61. :D

Having said that, get some +30 CHR and AF and HQ instruments (for the songs you actually use) and you'll be fine. Light Staff for Lullaby and Finale and cures (and Requiem), and Earth Staff for Elegy, will also be a nice big help, but aren't mandatory.

[Seeker_Onos]

I'll definitely re-evaluate my thinking on Elegy if I ever have any success in convincing my LS to spend the time killing Yagudo Chanters in Zvahl whilst waiting for my AF1 Gloves coffer to spawn... ; ;

Right now, I only have Battlefield Elegy, which with the seemingly little effect it has - I chalk it as a nice thing to add on after I've done my buffs.

I do want a light staff though, I borrowed one for a short time and became addicted to the difference it made with Requiem when soloing Elementals.

[Faranim]

Well the thing is, I need money for buying Cursed items but I'm not sure how to get it.

But I also have Melody Earrings +1, Signa, and other expensive items that I could sell if I don't really need the extra CHR. The money would let me buy Zenith Pumps and Zenith Slacks, which will give me a lot more MP (and they look good).

But at the same time I like having the "best" Bard Equipment to ooh and aah everyone who examines me.

I also haven't had too much experience fighting Gods (my linkshell always goes when I have work), but appearantly CHR becomes of paramount importance there. This is currently the only thing keeping me from selling my CHR equipment. I think the extra CHR will also help lullaby in dynamis.

[Seeker_Onos]

So in the long run, it seems that spending some serious gil is well worth it.

The next trouble is actually earning it ; ;

If I may ask, Faranim - do you make most of your gil by BCNM or by other means (crafting, HNMs, etc) ?

[Miriamel]

Yes, the only time you really do need +CHR equipment is when trying to land elegy, and just as you, I don't think the money it costs is justified.

Since WHM is my main job and I cannot afford to spend millions upon millions on bard equipment (+31CHR), I just do a simple trick and cast Bewitching Etude on myself before I land my debuffs. I rarely ever get resists. ^^;

[Sabin97124]

Very interesting.

I think another thing to consider too is that how much does other players in the game understand the life of a bard? I mean, most of them just knows a few songs that they always want on them, but they would have to idea on things such as wind or string skills affecting the power of the songs, or even the +2 instruments would override regular songs, even though its being cast at a later point.

In addition, most of the time, other jobs don't even really know what kind of equip bard should have, or know the difference between HQ and regular. so I believe it really just comes down to what kind of gamer you consider yourself as. I personally love HQ stuff, and I'm still saving all my penny's to buy the Melody +1's.

[Siven]

Depending on the server economy, most +CHR equipment aren't all that expensive, at least on Fenrir, so it becomes an easy decision, whether you want to spend more for that 20% gain, which is no small matter either when it comes to HNMs. Besides if everyone feels that the improvement in HQ equipment over normal doesn't justify the cost, no one would have any incentive to skill crafting.

FYI Fenrir prices:

Monster Signa - 430K, rarely changes
Light Staff - 250K or so
Earth Staff - about same
Melody Earring +1 - 340K
Angel's Ring - 170K
Heaven's Ring - crafter expects 800K but he's only made one so far which hasn't sold on AH :sweat:
Light Ring - 400K maybe...not sure
Wind Torque - 380K

[Peanut_Midgard]

I am not level 75 but I have no doubt the observation is correct. I think that's the genious of SE really. You can be an effective player even if you don't sink unimaginable amount of money (but a good amount still of course). So the question is whether you want to be the better BRD when you are standing next to another one.

To me the extreme top notch equipment is really for yourself only. I mean, regardless of jobs, who really pay that much attention on how often things are resisted, or on average how much damage a melee hit for besides yourself?

Does it bother you that you get resisted 2 out of 5 times instead of 1 out of 5? That's the question you have to ask yourself.

For myself I always want to have decent equipment at the very least. I might not be able to afford rare big price tag equipment (I consider those that are 200k+ high price tag and not absolutely necessary) all the time but I make sure they are the best up-to-date choice. And I believe player skill is still much more important. And of course, pimpness factor comes with a big price tag :)

[kuu]

lvl 75 is hard to say since anything you will possibly fight things that require much more then the power of a single bard.

But having top eq can make a difference in xp parties.

And yes some of us do notice if a bard( or another class) is "gimp"

Earily in levels you can goof off, but later on, pass the 50s and into the 60s

Speed becomes a lot more important, and want that chain 5 @.@

if a trenody get resisted, blk needs more nuking
that in turn needs more mp
and that means no chain 5

And offsense and defense go together more mp, less chain.

On chain 4-5 even the whm/blk MBs
Don't think they can't, even at half elemental skill, a weakness spell will be resisted med->no resist. That's like an extra 100+damage there
Every 10 min, ES for full effect. That's sometimes make or break chain 5.

Like a rolling snowball effect, the faster the pt, the less chance you have of "correcting your resisted songs". mp becomes more needed, finale needs to be on time, prelude must be rangered. etc.

Sure you might eventually land, but not a good thing for pt to wait on something. Though "millions of gil" is a high requirement indeed:sweat:

[LockeCole]

Well, my (really retarded but true) opinion is, having any bard that plays his songs >> a party without a bard in general, even if the bard is naked :). Landing debuffs will definately make things better, but landing all your party buffs is the thing that makes exp smooth and fast. Only catch is you mustn't fail finale. . .

[Nnep]

Don't go so much the CHR but the wind torque route. I finally caved in and bought one, havn't had a resist yet.

[Setheron]

I Dont even udnerstand how to get the zenith armor >< somone wanna explain to me how it works ?

[CarbonFibre]

It's just like the Shura armor, Koenig armor, Crimson armor, etc. A very high level piece is sythesized and then you need to uncurse it. The items needed to uncurse them (they're called abjurations) drop off top tier HNMs. When I saw the set, just as with the shura set, I was not all that impressed. It is nice armor for a lot of mages, but IMO a tarutaru will be better off with Errant gear. With all this stat capping talk I may be wrong though. Lol full zenith on a taru he'll end up with 100 hp :p

[Vilurum]

Every set of abjuration equipment - except Crimson - has a downside. Assuming no HQ, here are the total stats for each set:

Hecatomb (WAR/THF/PLD/DRK/BST/BRD/DRG):

172 Defense

Pro:
HP +58
STR +36
DEX +12
Accuracy +10
Attack +20

Con:
Slow +43

Koenig (WAR/PLD):

205 Defense

Pro:
HP +170
VIT +60
CHR +60
Shield +5
Evasion +10
Enhances "Resist Sleep" effect
Enhances "Resist Paralyze" effect

Con:
STR -30
DEX -30

Adaman (WAR/DRK/BST):

160 Defense

Pro:
STR +10
DEX +10
Accuracy +33
Attack +44

Con:
HP -20
MP -20
VIT -10
INT -10
MND -10
Evasion -31

Shura (MNK/SAM/NIN):

122 Defense

Pro:
STR +10
Accuracy +30
Attack +20
Enhances "Resist Paralyze" effect
Enhances "Resist Gravity" effect

Con:
HP -150

Zenith (WHM/BLM/RDM/BRD/SMN):

158 Defense

Pro:
MP +250
INT +5
MND +7
CHR +6
Magic Attack Bonus +5
Magic Defense Bonus +5
Adds "Refresh" effect
Enhances "Resist Silence" effect
Enhances "Resist Paralyze" effect

Con:
HP -250
Evasion -3

Crimson (RDM/PLD/DRK/RNG/DRG):

179 Defense

Pro:
HP +120
MP +120
DEX +3
AGI +3
INT +10
MND +10
All elemental resistance +20
Ranged Accuracy +10
Ranged Attack +10
Dark magic +10
Enfeebling magic +10
Breath damage taken -10%
Movement speed +12%
Adds "Regen" effect

Con:
Nothing

Abjuration equipment by job:
WAR: Hecatomb, Koenig, Adaman
MNK: Shura
WHM: Zenith
BLM: Zenith
RDM: Zenith, Crimson
THF: Hecatomb
PLD: Hecatomb, Koenig, Crimson
DRK: Hecatomb, Adaman, Crimson
BST: Hecatomb, Adaman
BRD: Hecatomb, Zenith
RNG: Crimson
SAM: Shura
NIN: Shura
DRG: Hecatomb, Crimson
SMN: Zenith

[2.0]

Crimson Armor turns you into a "dragon" so to speak. You can get intimidated by dragoons. That's a con sort of I guess.

[Asao]

On xp mobs @ 75 ( Aura statues are prolly the highest lvl IT+++), I've noticed that I do not get resisted all that much, except for requiem which seems to always get resisted on the Aura Statues. But when fighting Gods I am lucky to get 1 elegy or 1 finale landed in the 30 minute fight, even with both CHR+ songs on me ><. I have never successfully landed a threnody on Genbu or Suzaku either.

Are there any bards that can reliably land songs on the gods, especially threnodies? If so, what equipment are you using? However I did notice that when I used my 2 hr once on Genbu, elegy and finale were not resisted... was too busy with ballad to use other songs ; ;

Oh yeah, in my LS even tho brds all the last on the list to get Zenith abjurations, our LS provides the funds to purchase the cursed armor^^

[grunion]

in general i think the first post is correct. a naked bard is almsot as good as the most decked out bard.

i can think of 3 exceptions:

+2 instruments are a must

when fighting something very IT+++ such as gods or HNM, you'll want that +70 or more CHR, and you can help a lot by staying alive w/ +hp, casting more cure w/ +mp, and getting tp to do spirits within with a fast sword

when farming (obviously)

other than that, really all you need is the instruments.

[Faranim]

Since this was bumped, I'll comment after I've had a bit more end-game experience.

This is what you need CHR for:
Kirin (even with +70 CHR he's a bitch to hit with anything)
Genbu, Suzaku, Seiryuu, Byakko. CHR definately helps, but it still takes multiple casts of anything to get it to land.
High Level HNMs (King Behemoth, Fafnir, Nidhogg, Aspidochelone). With +50 CHR landing songs on these guys is pretty easy. It's nice when I can keep Water Threnody on Nidhogg for virtually the entire fight.

Once you hit 75, CHR doesn't help you against any other monster in the game. It will make a very very very slight effect on high level EXP mobs (such as Aura Statue), but you would be much better off with more HP or MP instead of the CHR.

If Inventory space wasn't an Issue, I'd have a set of gear that gives all out CHR (+70 CHR is pretty easy to get), and a 2nd set with tons of +MP. Of course, on top of the 12 instruments I carry, having 24 pieces of equipment and 5 weapons, doesn't leave much room for anything else after consumables (Pamama, Echo, Oils, Powders).

As far as lower levels go, CHR is still useful because it will help your success rates on EXP mobs. Being able to land Elegy, Threnody, and Lullaby reliably is well worth the price of the equiment.

[Peanut_Midgard]

I will have to echo the statement about CHR useful on even xp mobs. I have always believed the common saying that the "soft cap" for CHR is around 30ish. So I always have around CHR+35 equip on me and I rarely have problems on xp mobs. However, last our party decided to go against someting a little out of our league. You know, things that take a long time to kill and only give 200 xp ^^; I was having a hell of a time landing things. So I busted out my Rose Harp +1 and sang Bewitching Etude on myself. Voila with +8 from it I get resisted 1 out of 5 times instead of 3 out of 5 times. It was a really noticable difference.

Lesson learned is the "soft cap" is really level dependent. The bigger the gap is between you and the mob, the more CHR you need before you will reach that "soft cap". And that essentially is why you need a lot of CHR when you are fighting the ubah HNM. They are much higher level than you ^^

[sudo]

don't forget, a naked smn is almost as good as a fully decked out smn too.

I've tried playing naked before as smn and it's just about the same damn thing.

The only difference was cures were better with light staff and dark staff helped sitting mp regen.

The -5 seconds on bp timer was not all that noticable during 5hrs of exping. Conserve MP didn't kick in very often on JSE 50.

I never get to full mp before the puller grabs the next mob so my max mp eq was wastful as well.

The +1 mp on seer's cloak didn't make much difference by itself. If I had maybe more eq that stacked mp regen this might work better.

All my blood pacts worked exactly the same no matter what I had equipped.

I rarely got agro anyway and when I did, aerial armor and stone skin sucked it up or I was dead in less than 5 hits anyway.

Even with clothes on, I'd only last about 4 hits before I die. With armor I'd live an extra hit maybe.

I'm sure a vermillion cloak would add more noticable difference in my performance but as it was, the blm often ran out of mp way before me so I'd just sit there and wait for him to regen mp.

Having refresh on for myself would just make me get more mp faster but this was also rather pointless since I never really run down to 0 mp anyway. And as long as I had mp to cast, it made little difference for exping if I had more max or faster gain.

Other people can be the limiting factors, or out of mobs to pull, or they'd need me to carby pull etc.

But having blood pacts have nothing much to do with smn equips is rather funny. Playing naked really is virtually unnoticable in supporting job roles.

smn, brd, whm, you can play most of these almost naked and they'd still work 80-90% as good as ones in 50 million gil gear.

Melees, tanks, and other DD require much more attention to detail on gear in my opinion. But then again, they usually farm better too.

Maybe it all balances out? support jobs can't farm so they don't need much gear?

[cloudedge]

Yeah, I'd agree that the soft cap on Chr is relative to ur lvl. I am usually in a perma so the lvl range of my PT is never higher than 1 lvl.. at max 2. And in these set up I rarely get resisted for my debuff in my chr+ gear (35+ chr) but if I forget to swap my mp gear out (26+) my lullaby are sometimes resisted even on weak IT mobs. (and I use earth staff and horn +1)

I had a chance recently to pt out of my static and i was 67 while the pld was 70. We were fighting IT to IT+ and I definately can feel I get resisted A LOT more even with (35+ chr) so I'd say, if the mob is 7-8lvl above u, u will have trouble landing debuff on the mob... and this where u're gear may prob. be able to make a difference.

But regarding Melody +1 earing.. it's going at 400-500k on Ifrit, while terra is 1.2 mil...and I definately thinke +5% decrease resistance on elegy is > +2 chr.