Playing with a nin tank?

[juahn]

Hello all,

I am a lvl 54 rdm in nead of some advice. I have just set up a static party on my server with some friends and for the first time i am acually playing with a nin tank.

My question is basically about debuffs, which debuffs do you normally want the rdm to use and in what order?

Also are nin debuffs more effective? (namely slow and blind)

my normal debuffing order before I played with a nin tank was

gravity -> slow -> paralyze -> dia2 -> blind blind was always the last because i am used to having a pld and flash overwrights it.

Since i have had a nin tank i changed up a little to the following

slow -> gravity -> blind -> paralyze -> dia2

I know that slow is important to a blink tank, now my tank is doing slow and blind on every mob as well but it seems if his sticks first i get the "has no effect" message, if mine sticks first will nin slow overwright it?

Any info you guys could provide would be nice

Thank you in advance

--Juahn

[Patchinko]

My set PT has a NIN tank and we usually decide which debuffs he'll use and I'll use before starting up.

The main thing about Ninjutsu is that it has to be capped or the debuffs aren't going to stick. I always start out with Gravity and Frost to ensure our RNG can hit Sidewinder in the renkei and then I follow with whatever debuffs aren't being handled by Ninjutsu.

I also pay attention to Ninjutsu resists, so if Kurayami is resisted, I cast Blind, and if Hojo is resisted, I cast Slow, etc. NIN isn't going to have the ability to artifically boost his spell power with equipment as much as we can, so usually if he's resisted, I'm not.

The effect of Ninjutsu is exactly the same as the spells we cast, so no, Ninjutsu will not overwrite spells. If you cast Blind first, Kurayami will have no effect and so forth.

As far as effectiveness, they are more effective when done by the NIN because they also increase his hate. However, the spells still do the same things to the mobs.

[Deodorant]

Hrm I vaguely recall a discussion somewhere else that concluded that in terms of "effectiveness," flash > kurayami > blind. Besides, many ninjas use kurayami and hojo mainly for hate purposes.

[Patchinko]

I doubt it's more effective because unlike Flash, Kurayami will not overwrite Blind.

[Arien20]

Im not a RDM spell expert but im about 75% sure Nin Enfeebles work better than RDM's, as when i cast it seems to take a more potent effect.

[Patchinko]

Someone could do tests to find out, going out in PT with a NIN and comparing the amount the mob misses with a NIN with capped Ninjutsu at the same level casting Kurayami versus the amount the mob misses when the RDM uses Blind with capped Enfeebling.

I think the RDM would be resisted slightly less and neither would cause the mob to miss significantly more than the other.

Having PT'd with a NIN who uses enfeebling jutsu since I was in my late 30s, this is what I have found at least.

[DM337]

NIN enfeebles work this way in relation to regular white/black magic enfeebles:

Magic enfeebles and Ichi level ninjutsu debuffs will not stack, if one is cast after the other has landed, you will get a "XXXX spell has no effect on monster" message.

Ni level ninjutsu debuffs will overwrite magic enfeebles. The ninjutsu can be cast over an existing Ichi or magic debuff effect, but Ichi ninjutsu or magic debuffs will have a "no effect" message if a Ni ninjutsu effect is on the monster.

When partying with a NIN, find out what debuffs he will be using, then stay away from using those yourself. NINs needs to debuff not only to help them with their Utsusemi casts, but also for hate. Plus, it just means less work for you! If you're partying with a NIN before he gets his Ni debuffs, then be extra careful not to cast what he might be casting, since he will be unable to overwrite your debuff. The only debuffs NINs don't get Ni versions of are Dokumori (poison) and Jubaku. (paralyze) A NIN will usually inform you if his debuff is resisted, so that you can back him up with your own debuff, and make both your and his job a whole lot easier.

Are NIN debuffs stronger than RDM debuffs? I have no clue. I have a tendency to believe that the Ni debuffs are more effective than RDM debuffs, but I have no solid proof of why this would be other than the fact that NI debuffs overwrite their RDM counterparts. Also, I have no clue how Kurayami: Ni (Blind) and Flash would stack/effect each other.

[Uroboros]

NIN debuffs are better than mage debuffs, they last longer and have a more pronounced effect. They're also, as said, really important to NIN building hate; the difference between amazing NINs and the NINs that build the stereotype up that they need a THF (they don't) is that the former spam those 5-16k a stack debuffs and the latter just blink.

I don't have anything concrete for exp pts to support my assertion that NIN debuffs are better apart from "feel," playing RDM to high level with lots of NIN tanks and playing NIN myself, the powder debuffs definitely just feel more potent, work more often, and last longer. It's kind of irritating that for exp parties RDM is the only A rank enfeebler in the game yet NIN and BRD both do it better (Carnage Elegy anyone?). The only thing you really need an RDM to do is Silence.

[Apple Pie]

There's a guy testing Hojo:Ichi and Hojo:Ni here.
http://pamama.hp.infoseek.co.jp/FF11kensyou/kensyou6-04-03-01.html (Japanese)

NIN55/WHM?: Ninjyutsu Skill 178, MND36, INT42

He checked how many times a Diving Beatle in Sauromugue Champaign could attack him for three minutes.

No Hojo
44 times

Hojo:Ichi
39 times (112 - 113%)

Hojo:Ni
37 times (118 - 119%

Well, if this additional delay is fixed regardless of their skill and stats, Slow spell is iventually better since it adds 30% delay when caster's MND >= 80.

As for Kurayami, I felt it was better than Blind according to my NIN experience. Then, as for Jubaku, I can't tell the difference.

In my case, I usually let them cast whatever they want because they need to hold the hate with these enfeebling Ninjyutsu. I know they want to train their Ninjyutsu skill, too :P

[Patchinko]

Too bad he had to go out as a NIN/WHM, thus increasing his MND further.

Maybe I'll try to take stats about this very thing on my next party outting.

[DrSerpico]

Always keep haste up.

Haste on nin, slow on mob. The rest is gravy.
Slow and blind, but most good nins do their own blind.

Paralyze is nice. Not necessary, but nice, Since it saves a shadow here and there.

Us eurotrash on voicecom, our nin tank yells at me if haste is down for more than 2 secs. Rebuffing Utsu: Ni without haste = danger.