Why is SE making our job so diffcult? Give us Refreshra please!!!

[yepe]

I'm sorry but since our job in a party is a big "Refresh" machine, why aint SE giving us a break? Refreshing 5 people in a party is a big PITA having to keep track on who/when to refresh. Give us what we deserve, our trademark spell "Refreshra" and make our job easier. It really doesnt make us anymore powerful but just something to simplify our job. It can be 200mp spell for all I care but after over 10 lvls of Refresh, I am sick of this job! What's worst is spamming Refresh doesnt raise enhancing skill. I have casted at least 100 refreshes before seeing a .1 or .2 skill up. Believe it or not, 5 hrs party and not even 1pt enhancing skill lvl gain. Most weapon skill would have maxed their skill by then after every lvl. What is going on SE? We are one of the most hardworking job class since 41 up and our job never get any easier.

I have seen RDM that dont cast any other spells but Refresh (yes, no debuf or MB, only Refresh) and party still desperately wants them in.

Sorry for the rant but I really hope we can write to SE so they can hear our RDM woes.

[Kilgraw]

/BRD? :zzz:

[Deodorant]

Bitch bitch bitch, complain complain complain.

Next, the WHMs will ask for a macro that auto-cures the party when they take damage, followed by a request from the BLMs for a visual "nuke now!" icon so they never miss Magic Bursts.

:zzz:

[yepe]

Originally posted by Deodorant
Bitch bitch bitch, complain complain complain.

Next, the WHMs will ask for a macro that auto-cures the party when they take damage, followed by a request from the BLMs for a visual "nuke now!" icon so they never miss Magic Bursts.

:zzz:

Hmm... I dont see any relevance in your post from what I was asking. Refreshra does not auto refresh everyone in the party. You still have to cast the damn spell for it to work.

Let's put it this way, does a WHM without Curaga or any of the Bar-Ra series spells have the right to complain?

If our job is to refresh the party 24/7, it's obvious we need a ra spell to help us. Just like a whm in a party is to buff everyone, they deserve the ra spells. Do you get it?

Blm is not even a support class, how can you compare their job to ours?

[Deodorant]

My point is you're moaning and bitching about something that isn't hard at all. I've been a refresh whore for over 30 long levels, and though I will admit refresh-ga would be nice, I've never found it difficult at all. In fact I'd even go as far to say that it's easy. Tedious, admittedly, but still easy.

Also, if you don't understand the relevance of my 'comparison' (it's not really a comparison) to whm/blm above, then too bad, cos I'm not wasting my finger strength explaining it to you.

[Zaleshea]

Ehm...

Casting Regen on the melees I reckon is the same as refresh on the mages/PLD/DRK. If it is, no it isnt that hard. =o

[yepe]

I guess you are still not getting my point as it is not just about "moaning and bitching" as you put it. It is about a job that SE has made to be inefficient.

I seriously dont understand why you even bother to post what you posted since you already know it's not really a comparison then why bother with a weak response? Well, I dont wish to argue when I get a weak response.

All I was saying is from Day 1, we should already have the ra spell for refresh, just like whm has ra, bar-ra spells, brd song buff to party. Their job seems to be properly thought out compared to rdm.

I wouldnt imagine a whm to cast protect/shell on one at a time, bar-series everyone at a time. Brd having to sing songs to one at a time. Now why would they let rdm refresh one at a time? Does having refreshra really make us so damn powerful compared to refresh cycle that keep us busy?

[Kilgraw]

Who's busy? :sweat:

[yepe]

Originally posted by Zaleshea
Ehm...

Casting Regen on the melees I reckon is the same as refresh on the mages/PLD/DRK. If it is, no it isnt that hard. =o

Good point. However, 3 jobs can do this. Rdm with regen, whm with regen/regen2 and brd with paeon1/2 (which is almost like a regenra). I wont need to have a regenra because I dont have to cast it like a "Regen" machine if you know what I mean.

[bonovoxpsu]

hmm. i'd have to say you're moaning and bitching :eek:

:sweat:

[Deathguise]

It might make RDM too good.
^_-

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by yepe

I seriously dont understand why you even bother to post what you posted since you already know it's not really a comparison then why bother with a weak response? Well, I dont wish to argue when I get a weak response.

I never compared rdm to whm and blm. You put the words in my mouth. What I was trying to get at, was that here you are bitching and moaning and basically wanting your life to be easier. So what's stopping a whm from wanting his life to be easier, and thus have an auto-cure macro? And likewise, a blm wanting magic bursts to be easier by having an icon pop up that tells him exactly when to cast?

And why stop there? While you're at it, you might as well ask for "mighty debuff," and all-in-one debuff that includes slow para blind gravity and all the blm enfeebles. Oh, also an icon that says "dispel needed" so you don't have to watch for visual or text cues. In fact, might as well go all the way, and just totally automate combat so you can drink coffee and not touch the keyboard at all while leveling up.

Oh, you might say, but healing and MBing are easy enough that they don't need to be made even easier, which would be exactly my point. Refresh duty is extremely easy, and doesn't need to be made any easier.

[Jubbermuffin]

I sincerely hope they don't add area of effect refresh. Somehow I manage to find time to refresh, haste, debuff mob, cure and status cure melee, but still I wouldn't want refreshra although it would make battles less intense. I fully agree with Deo, refreshing people is easy (even if you have PLD DRK RDM WHM BLM set up) and really doesn't need to be simplified further. There's no argument that we "should" have refreshra just because whms get protectra, if all jobs had all -ra versions of spells how boring would the game be? If you want a break, may I suggest trying samurai?

(No offense to any samurais out there ;))

[Kai Leonhart]

This might have been said already, but RDMs have alot of things going for them! They have alot of abilities and spells that we WHMs dream of *cough*refresh*cough* + you can hold your own in most battles if needed. WHMs, BLMs, and SMNs are paper dolls - you guys can take a few hits, and you guys can give them pretty well too. The reason WHMs have -ra spells is because it's our job to ensure the well-being of the pt and buff, and debuff which is usually doen by the RDM it one enters the pt. I would say more but I am tired :P

[Apple Pie]

I'm rather proud of playing such a technical job. I know it's hard to keep track of logs for hours but I like to be an enfeebling / Refresh / Sleep artist without wasting any second.

As for training enhancing magic skill, I don't have any problem at all. It's always capped. A few hours farming at Zitah or Baucudine is enough to get 1.0 - 2.0 skill up.

[Karinya]

I don't mind not having refreshga - although I think refresh should improve strength or duration with enhancing skill, or refresh2 should be added at high levels (level 70, 80mp same cast/recast time, 5mp/3sec for 3 min for a total of 300 mp restored?). One problem I do have though is the whms that don't haste. I give them 150 free mp every two minutes, AND give the PLD 150 mp so he does most of his own healing, and the whm.. just stands there not casting anything. Doesn't paralyze or slow, I can understand - he's afraid of being resisted, and/or doesn't understand that higher MND makes them more powerful when they do land. Some WHMs don't have much MND gear anyway so I may actually have higher.

But when someone with more MP to start with, getting a ton of free MP from me, and having little to do, wants me to Haste instead of doing it himself, that ticks me off.

If a party has RDM and WHM, WHM should do most to all of the haste. Even if this means RDM has to do some curing (which it probably won't because the whm won't run out of mp even if he is hasting), that still spreads out hate better between the RDM and WHM compared to having the WHM do all the curing (high hate) and the RDM haste (low hate).

But there are a lot of lazy whms who either don't have haste, or don't bother to cast it. Leaving the RDM to choose between an inefficient haste-less party, or stressing their own mp even further to cover for the WHM not doing his job. :mad: Some WHM don't even cast regen2...

[Jonnyram]

Refreshra would suck... think of how much MP it would cost. And then when it runs out and you don't have enough MP to cast it, you'd have to use Refresh on individuals, then wait for them all to run out before casting refreshra again. It would be totally inefficient.

[Shiia]

The only time I might find group refresh to be usefull is when I get a PT set up like Nin/war Thf/Nin Drk/War Brd/Whm Blm/Rdm and me as Rdm/whm (true group at lvl 70s)

I am refresher, Haster, Protecter, Debuffer, main healer and status remover. This is the only PT structure I sometimes totaly forget about refresh till mine wears off -_-;

[bonovoxpsu]

refresh2 WILL be more important then refresh1 or refreshga.

:)

[edit] i have no idea what i mean. i guess i mean i want refresh2 more then refreshga. hey, gimmie a break, its 7:30am here :)

[Zaleshea]

Originally posted by Jonnyram
Refreshra would suck... think of how much MP it would cost. And then when it runs out and you don't have enough MP to cast it, you'd have to use Refresh on individuals, then wait for them all to run out before casting refreshra again. It would be totally inefficient.

With this said, people will then grow tired of constantly converting just to get the mp to re-cast it lol.

[yepe]

Originally posted by Deodorant
I never compared rdm to whm and blm. You put the words in my mouth. What I was trying to get at, was that here you are bitching and moaning and basically wanting your life to be easier. So what's stopping a whm from wanting his life to be easier, and thus have an auto-cure macro? And likewise, a blm wanting magic bursts to be easier by having an icon pop up that tells him exactly when to cast?

And why stop there? While you're at it, you might as well ask for "mighty debuff," and all-in-one debuff that includes slow para blind gravity and all the blm enfeebles. Oh, also an icon that says "dispel needed" so you don't have to watch for visual or text cues. In fact, might as well go all the way, and just totally automate combat so you can drink coffee and not touch the keyboard at all while leveling up.

Oh, you might say, but healing and MBing are easy enough that they don't need to be made even easier, which would be exactly my point. Refresh duty is extremely easy, and doesn't need to be made any easier.

20+ lvls of Refresh and I dont know how easy to do refresh? Who says anything about being hard to cast refresh? Just run a macro ;p and cycle through the group. It's not hard to do anything in this game if you are patience. It's about being efficient and rdms are certainly not because of lack of the ra spell. Yes, refresh2 will be good but I prefer refreshra because it give rdm more chances to debufs, re-debufs and MB.

Despite what I have wrote, you dont seem to grasp any of those. I'll just give up and let you be as inefficient as SE want rdm to be. Other support job classes get the group spells/songs but what do RDM get for that? You seem to have been in the game too long to realize it. Btw, it is also extremely easy for WHM to cast protect/shell, bar-ra series spells one person at a time per your logic. And why do SE make their life easier? It is not hard at all!!

And about your comment on the "mighty debuff", you can do that through macro(s). So, why do I need that again?

[Kai Leonhart]

Originally posted by Karinya
I don't mind not having refreshga - although I think refresh should improve strength or duration with enhancing skill, or refresh2 should be added at high levels (level 70, 80mp same cast/recast time, 5mp/3sec for 3 min for a total of 300 mp restored?). One problem I do have though is the whms that don't haste. I give them 150 free mp every two minutes, AND give the PLD 150 mp so he does most of his own healing, and the whm.. just stands there not casting anything. Doesn't paralyze or slow, I can understand - he's afraid of being resisted, and/or doesn't understand that higher MND makes them more powerful when they do land. Some WHMs don't have much MND gear anyway so I may actually have higher.



Personally my enfeeb skill is ALWAYS maxed along with my enchancing and healing skill. When I do 'try' to enfeeb my pt yells at me because we have a RDM, so I stop :P Plus when I get Haste, I will haste the hell out of my dmg dealers ^^ I already Regen regularly!

[yepe]

Originally posted by Jonnyram
Refreshra would suck... think of how much MP it would cost. And then when it runs out and you don't have enough MP to cast it, you'd have to use Refresh on individuals, then wait for them all to run out before casting refreshra again. It would be totally inefficient.

Refresh will all run out at the same time. Just like Protectra, if say refreshra uses 200mp to cast. Make sure to have that amount of mp when timers is almost up unless there is links/adds, then use Refresh for the time being. Refresh will not be obsolete if refreshra is implemented.

[Ednoon]

anyone want some cheese?:biggrin: with STFU on top

[Taki]

Casting refresh is easy, of course. Not hard pressing that macro or selecting the spell from the list and casting it on the right person at the right time.

What bothers me is the tedium. I wonder who thought casting the same spell 721847289 times a day for what seems like every five seconds would be fun. (assuming they were trying to make the jobs fun)

Strangely enough, playing a whm never bothered me much. I guess I was prepared for the role and knew exactly what it would be. Or maybe it's the fact that a red mage has tons of other things to do and spells to cast, instead of focusing on one duty. But I digress..

So yes, I would welcome a group refresh spell. Maybe I could stand playing the job again.

Btw.. everytime someone posts their ideas, they get a lot of 'stfu and don't whine, if you don't like the game just quit'. I don't agree with this logic. Being aware of problems is the way to improvement.

[Rekiem]

I think refreshga would be good for RDM. I just don't know how you guys manage to do it for so many levels. I find that casting Ballad for everyfight is really tedious and repetitive but you guys have it worst since you have to keep track of duration too, change targets and keep racast timer in mind...

[Silkiv]

Originally posted by yepe
I'm sorry but since our job in a party is a big "Refresh" machine, why aint SE giving us a break? Refreshing 5 people in a party is a big PITA having to keep track on who/when to refresh. Give us what we deserve, our trademark spell "Refreshra" and make our job easier. It really doesnt make us anymore powerful but just something to simplify our job. It can be 200mp spell for all I care but after over 10 lvls of Refresh, I am sick of this job! What's worst is spamming Refresh doesnt raise enhancing skill. I have casted at least 100 refreshes before seeing a .1 or .2 skill up. Believe it or not, 5 hrs party and not even 1pt enhancing skill lvl gain. Most weapon skill would have maxed their skill by then after every lvl. What is going on SE? We are one of the most hardworking job class since 41 up and our job never get any easier.

I have seen RDM that dont cast any other spells but Refresh (yes, no debuf or MB, only Refresh) and party still desperately wants them in.

Sorry for the rant but I really hope we can write to SE so they can hear our RDM woes.


Rdm, Whm and Brd are tedious/boring to get them more job invites! :p If you make it easy to be a rdm then more damage dealers will change to rdm and you will have competition.

Also maybe I'm not high enough but if you want to get enhance up go gilfarm monsters... enhance seems to go up every few hours when I refresh, haste, stoneskin, en-, etc constantly.

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by yepe

(random barnyard animal noises)
I'm not going to bother arguing with you. You obviously lack either the comprehension or intelligence to grasp what it is I'm saying, so any further argument will be a waste of energy on my part.

So go ahead and whine some more, and just ignore anything I've said.

Oh wait, you already are! :zzz:

[Lady Kelenae]

Originally posted by StarvingArtist
Could always ask SE to change Rdms back to the way they used to be with no Refresh, Convert, Regen, and access to higher tier Black Magic. Then you wouldn't have to worry about being a Refresh tank anymore like the old times. :o

I'll level RNG if that happens -.-

[Karinya]

Originally posted by StarvingArtist
Could always ask SE to change Rdms back to the way they used to be with no Refresh, Convert, Regen, and access to higher tier Black Magic. Then you wouldn't have to worry about being a Refresh tank anymore like the old times. :o
You wouldn't have to worry about getting unwanted invites before you leave your mog house after logging on, either. In fact you wouldn't have to worry about getting unwanted invites at all. I've heard about the old times for RDM and I have no desire to experience them.

That doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not it would be good to add a refreshra or refresh2, though. But I suspect that if we see these at all it will be in Promathia - IIRC there has only been one patch since Zilart that added new spells (the one that added genkai 5), and I don't expect to see another before Promathia. The last patch was basically just some changes to ballista, and new BCNM and garrisons (and the items that drop from them).

[moonyaco]

Refresh: 41 rdm
MP Cost: 40
Cast Time: 5.00 seconds
Recast Time: 18.00 seconds
Duration: 2 minutes
Elemental Type: Light
Skill: Enhancing
Target: Single

To refresh 4 players in pt: Give and take 100 seconds, 20 secs left before first refresh drops.
Factor in fast cast and l33t timing skills:90 seconds, 30 secs before first refresh drops.
Factor in Haste for melees, prob 2-4, casting/recast/lasting time is around the same as refresh. They're on a diff timer, so just cast one after a refresh.
Factor in Enfeebling duties, para/gravi/Dia and blm debuffs in some cases.
Factor in Magic burst during skill chains.
Factor in Support healer duties when pt is taking too much dmg for whm to handle or just taking a load off whm's healing hate.

Does a red mage really have time to rest for mana or just in r/l? Not much, good thing we have convert as our only salvation.

Refreshga is definately a great addition to gameplay whatever the level. Imagine how a white mage would feel if he has no Protectra cos he can't afford it and has to cast protect on everyone in the party. Wait lets add in the 5 seconds casting time, while we're at it, lets add 18 seconds recast delay and it lasts for a miserable 2 mins. So the whm would be casting prot, sits to regen mana for 1 tick, stands cast prot, sits to regen mana for 1 tick and so on.

Just for those EQ players, refresh is like clarity(mana regen buff that lasts waaaaaaaaaaay longer than 2 mins), in EQ when expansions came out, there are improvements like Group clarity and even right clickable items with clarity on it(free mana regen buff) only for the specific buffer class/job. I quit eq 2 years ago for multiple reasons, so don't give me that "Since EQ is so much better, why not just go back and leave this game alone". I'm merely mentioning examples of good in game improvements in an MMOPRG that expansions can bring along to make gameplay more enjoyable and of course, less tedious.

So a few rdms bitch/moan about it in the forum.
Then some high lvl rdm comes in and say "stfu its how S-E intends this game to be, mages are meant to be boring, so live with it", (We've endured it for all these lvls, so you're not getting it any easier than us!!)
while a small faction of mages of around the same lvl as the whiners would add, "you know you can just quit this job if you don't like how it is, i myself am proud to be playing a technically challenging job that reflexes my incredible memorising and timing skills. (If these suckers quit playing mages, i can get invites faster)" - Bite me :biggrin:

I still can't believe some goon used some warped logic that "if we get refreshra, whms should get autocure and blms should get a sign saying time to cast MB " something along these lines. Don't turn to other mages for the sake of balance, we're the only ones without grp buff/teleport type spell/much stronger debuff spells comparible to blm only nukes like Flare/Freeze or a whm's incredible healing/raise abilities since enfeebling is A+ to us. Whms even outdmg us in melee from some point onwards. I could go on and on about how unfair things are. So pls, rdms getting a small upgrade is not gonna wreak heaven and earth for the other mages. Look, there is nothing to be proud of being able to time refresh/haste buffs on party members right. My grandpa or my 5 yr old nephew could do the same. This topic is asking us RDMs to support this idea cause it is something that S-E missed out on and should be implemented perhaps even before NA release. I would suggest hastega for rdms too, but right now, refreshra is more crucial.

ps. Yes, good news to some mages reading this, i've stopped playing rdm 6 months ago cos they just won't put in refreshra. The only pts i enjoyed being in are when there are only 2 mages(including me) with no mana melees(paladin/drk)(Yes i prefer warriors to paladins and can keep them alive no prob, paladins deal like 130% rdm melee dmg anyway) or a 2 Rdm as healers partay! (splitting every shit job above into 2 makes life soooo sweet, i wouldn't mind healing more and casting an extra simple and loooong lasting buff like protect)

[midnilux]

RDM have too many strength and weakness, for example why the fuck do RDMs heal almost identically to WHMs, wow they dont get Cure V, like anyone cares, healing is overpowered for a class thats not supposed to be a main healer, that would be fine and dandy for me, but the pay off is that our nukes BLOW ASS.

Yeah we can make everyone not run out of mp if we do precise refresh cycles, the trade off is that WE run out of mp regreshing every 20 seconds, thanks god for convert, but it should be a 5 minute, not a 10.

Which leads me to my point, I think Convert was added to make up for the lack of refresh-ga, they knew we'd be running out of mp trying to keep everyone elses up, so that ability makes sense specially since it comes 1 level before refresh. The -ga issue would be fixed with a 5 minute convert, my problem is not that im too lazy to refresh everyone, my problem is that i do it too much and run out of mp, so I need a 5 min convert!

And please dont compare us to bards, thats the job everyone wants in their PT but no one wants to be. Boring as helll.

It's not all that bad when you come to accept we're like the shamans of EQ, and WHMs are the Clerics, xept Clerics heals 100 times better than a shaman, while WHM hardly can outdo a RDM if only for a few status ailments like cursna where theyre actually needed.

[Deodorant]

And I can't believe there are people other than Yepe who lack the comprehension to understand what I'm saying.

If RDM ever get refreshga (assuming it has similar mp requirements to refresh), I'm not going to complain, obviously, but personally I feel it isn't necessary or required.

And my entire point about that 'comparison' (I'd think it's more like an analogy, but whatever) with whm/blm seems to have been missed. What I've said has nothing whatsoever to do with mage balance. The whm/blm thing was a random example of what they might say when asking for their lives to be made easier (which is what you're doing when asking for refreshga - asking for your life to be easier).

Even with having to refresh everybody individually, MP isn't usually much of an issue with liberal usage of convert. Even if you never convert, you can usually keep up constant refresh, enfeeble, and occasional cure and nuke. Making convert a 5 minute timer would make it overpowered, no question about it.

Also, a whm is a superior healer to rdm. Cure IV doesn't quite cut it when a mob does a double critical for 300damage each (not to mention V is more mp efficient and generates less hate than IV), and you would be crazy to go into HNM fights with no whms. But yeah, in many normal exp situations rdm's make the superior party member.

Nuking isn't as bad as you make it sound. I can MB for 700+ dmg. Granted, blm's can do like 1400, but 700 dmg isn't exactly 'suck ass.'

In closing, let me say that I wouldn't mind refreshga. Also, might as well give us protectra/shellra. Sword A+, or at least A- wouldn't be too bad either, and the IV-line of elemental spells, and at least B elemental skill. Oh, and Raise II would be nice, together with a 2-minute convert timer (and 10-minute chainspell duration). /nod.

(Yes, there is a 'hidden' point to that last paragraph, and if you can't catch it then you're a moron. That is all)

[yepe]

Originally posted by Deodorant
blah blah blah

Talking like moron really does not help :angel:. If you want to talk like a 13 year old that does not understand what your dad told you, I have no problem with it. I used to have respect for you but now... all you are is a selfish and arrogant ******* that thinks lvl75 seen it all and everyone should stfu.

As long as I got my message across and some ppl see my points, it's all that matters.

My job is done here. Let's hope SE wakes up and do some thinking because whatever they do to RDM is wrong from the beginning. Even they've admitted RDM is too hard to play. I sincerely hope future RDM all the best and may SE bless RDM with Refreshra ;)

And to you Deodorant, I will not reply to you anymore "Mr lvl75 with weak-come-back" :angel:

[SlipA]

I hope they put in a refreshra too. I know quite a few ppl who stopped rdm when they found out they had to be refresh machines. Refreshra will probably make rdm's dime a dozen and then it will be easy to find them, woo! No more having to ask rdm/nin's and /anon rdms to pt. Hmm, maybe I can be picky and only choose rdm's with dark staff and all the torques 0.0

im jk, but although refreshra would be fantastic, dont take the blessings of the job for granted, in that rdm is still probably the strongest overall job in the game. SE doesnt owe the job anything, refresh itself is already pretty nice, wouldnt you say? Who would have thought ppl would complain about the most wanted spell in the game being too inconvenient :eek: Having said that, i dont level my rdm hardcore, i switch off with other jobs to keep things interesting^^.

[midnilux]

If they add it it should be worth 240 mp, and lets suppose out of pitty's sake they make it 200mp since usually theres 1 pt member or 2 that dont even have mp so a full 6x40 cast would be a waste. But then you would have to deal with situations where there's only 2 or 3 people to refresh, so you'd be wasting some 200mp instead of 3x40, the spell would balance itself out.

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by yepe

My job is done here. Let's hope SE wakes up and do some thinking because whatever they do to RDM is wrong from the beginning.
Wee, Yepe is the authority on RDMs! She thinks refresh is too tedious, therefore it is S-EX's fault for fucking all RDMs over by neglecting to provide Refreshga! Probably they did it on purpose, too, just to make our lives hard!

In all seriousness, you're a fucking hypocrite. You posted an opinion, and expect everyone to say yes ma'am you the boss? And anybody who doesn't agree is a "selfish and arrogant ******* that thinks lvl75 seen it all and everyone should stfu?" Never anywhere did I tell you to do so; all I did was post my opinion on the matter. If you can't handle a little criticism from people with differing views, then don't bother posting. Case in point:

Originally posted by yepe

As long as I got my message across and some ppl see my points, it's all that matters.
Obviously the only opinions that matter to you are the ones that are in agreement. I'm sorry, but that is stupid. I don't claim to be any more 'right' than you are; but at least I value your (differing) opinion, which is more than what I can say about you.

Finally, weak come-back, huh. Perhaps you might be right. In my defense, it's extremely hard to argue intelligently with a person who: 1) Ignores parts of your arguments; 2) Grossly misinterprets the other parts; 3) Thinks that her opinion is fact; and 4) Doesn't give a fuck what anybody else thinks anyway.

[Uroboros]

Refresh needs to stay how it is, so people can tell who the bad RDMs are. I get complimented all the time for Refresh never falling longer than five seconds at a time on 3+ manapools, Haste never dropping on 2+ melees at all, and enfeebles/Dispelling being handled quickly and consistently. I wouldn't get those compliments if RDMs had a catch-all option for their primary function. Often these compliments are specific, like a paladin saying "Wow I never get Refresh like this" or a ninja saying "I'm never kept Hasted with no gaps."

Yeah it's a tedious job with a lot to do. Yeah sometimes it gets irritating. Take breaks from it or quit. If you want Refreshra play bard. RDM has gotten huge breaks and evolved to the point where every class that is not named bard resents their invitability and every class not named beastmaster resents their soloability. Lots of people would be happy to play the world's smallest violin for anyone saying RDM needs more.

SE saying RDM is "too hard to play" was a very loose translation from when they said the Maat battle for RDM is too hard, which is true. So they nerfed it. They did not mean the class as a whole.

[macross_sdf1]

Man I wish I had refreshga and slowga and hastega and gravityga. I agree it's tedious and quite boring to have to buff like this. Good thing I stopped xping months ago. I could care less about rdm group invite availability. Simply isn't fun to haste and refresh over and over and over, even though I do it very well. The difference between rdm and the others is we need to be always alert. Gotta watch the chat buffer constantly to see when stuff runs out. No time to afk, no time to slack off, no time to sit and med.

No big deal rdm gets cure4, so do paladins. I hardly cast cure4 anyways, causes too much aggro. Heck I hardly even cure, it's just there if I need it.

Rdm is only mage job without upgrades to low level spells. All we have unique to us is phallanx and gravity. Refresh, pfft. Bards can do it better. Isn't even much reason to have rdm on high lvl hnm hunts. Just a few that require grav, but you can get by that by using stuns. Debufs? seal+debuf usualy lands, and whm blm can do them. Without seal, even rdm with uber enfeeble has very hard time sticking debufs on the high lvl stuff. Pretty much all I do now is seal+slow or seal+grav then heal now and then, or maybe just spam debufs till one lands and runs out in 10 sec.

But try being rdm in dynamis when you got 6 people to refresh in your group.

Anyways, where are our high lvl spell upgrades. We don't get raise 2 or 3 or regen 2 or 3, or nuke4 or ancients like other jobs. We don't even get AE upgrades. If no refreshga, why not slow2 or para2, or blind2, or dia3 etc. Our job is to enfeeeble, why do we have to use low lvl spells.

[Karinya]

Originally posted by StarvingArtist
While I wouldn't mind Rdms in my PT with Refresh-ra or RefreshII (would like that more), if it were to be added it certainly won't come cheap. Whether it is from a high level BCNM or monster drop, the first few sold will definately go for more than 1-3 million and not every Rdm that can use it will be able to get it right away. Then you have Rdms with {Refresh-ra}O given favortism in PT invites - those that had the money or BCNM'd enough times to get drop. This has happened for RaiseII, RaiseIII, and Refresh when they first were released. - not making your job easier, just more expensive.

But it didn't happen for Dispel. Not ALL spells that are added are added as BCNM or HNM drops. Most of the elemental III series are 10k or under - because they drop fairly often from a substantial number of ordinary beastmen. If Refresh2 is a normal drop from high level RDM beastmen, coffer parties etc. will get plenty. Furthermore if it does have a price spike right after release, people will start farming RDM beastmen for Refresh2 scrolls and increasing the supply. The potential market is only 70+ RDM (probably, depending on what level they make the spell) and nobody needs more than one, so I don't think it will take long for prices to reach a reasonable level.

I got Refresh a couple months ago for 3k. Granted, that was still several months after it came out, but still, that's a pretty affordable price for a level 41 spell. ;)

Anyway, even if Refreshra or (even more so) Refresh2 RDMs get preference in PT invites, I don't think RDMs with "only" Refresh 1 will have too much trouble - and if they do, it's only for a few months until the price stabilizes (assuming it doesn't have a crazy drop rate like Erase).

Having Refresh-ra wouldn't make PTs not make a Rdm a refresh-tank any less. It's not always possible to make sure everyone has Refresh on at the same time - someone is out of range, disconnects, or accidentally removes it you end up having to refresh again. Not to mention everyone doesn't always use MP at the same rate or have the same amount. Having RefreshII just means you can RefreshII on mages and Refresh on MP-using attackers - not making your job easier, just more refresh casting.

Well, if Refresh2 has a longer duration or shorter casting time, then it does reduce the amount of time you have to spend casting it. Nobody calls WHM a "Protect tank" even though they are expected to keep a level-appropriate Protect and Shell on everyone and recast it as soon as it runs out.

If you really despise being a refresh tank, then form your PT members around non MP-using members. Nin or War as tank, Thf, Mnk, Drg, or Sam as other attackers. Then, you'll just have yourself and 2 others to refresh unless you have a Brd. - makes your refresh-tanking easier, but you still have other stuff to do.

Over the years, Square has actually been pretty good to Rdms (though it took a long long time). Addition of Convert, Regen, Refresh, access to more magic, and a shorter Convert timer (from 15min I think?)
Most DRK that I've partied with don't expect full-time refresh and wouldn't know what to do with it if they had it. So practically if you are the only rdm you are looking at 2-4 full time refreshes (including yourself) and possibly an occasional refresh on the drk. If you have a lot of refreshes you probably have a whm and pld which means the whm will be hasting unless he is a moron (if he's not hasting and you already have a refreshed pld, don't bother refreshing the whm: what's he going to use it on, banish?). Don't be afraid to delegate some enfeebles too: you're giving them a ton of free MP, they can afford to spend some of it on other spells so that you can still have the MP to keep refreshing them.

One more thing: rdm nukes don't suck. I usually get 90-95% of the damage of taru blm of the same level casting the same spell. Often BLM will cast a bigger spell that does more damage - but also costs a lot more MP. (Sometimes they can only do this by casting a -ga spell and it isn't safe to do so.) In MP-efficiency terms, rdm and blm nukes are very close. If RDM didn't have so many other responsibilities, and could throw as many MP into nuking as a blm, we could pretty nearly close the gap in overall nuke damage by throwing more nukes before having to rest (and of course if it were an actual competition, we wouldn't refresh the BLM, giving us an overall MP advantage).

[kyle5547]

Originally posted by Karinya



I got Refresh a couple months ago for 3k. Granted, that was still several months after it came out, but still, that's a pretty affordable price for a level 41 spell. ;)


[/B]

3k huh? I got mine for 30k when I was able to get the spell. I can't even imagine how much it cost when it first came out.

[kyle5547]

Hmmm..considering that its a new spell...and being that it would be beyond level 75, I would guess that it'll be hard to get and also very expensive when it sirst comes out due to novelty and the amount of RDM's. Im guessing that it will go for around 1-3 mil.

[Drynavere]

blah blah BLAH!... I agree with Ednoon...take your cheese and get lost whiners....

I play a RDM as a side job to have some fun when DRK gets boring, and I just recently hit 41 and have been having some fun with refresh. On average I can land all 5-6 of the debuffs that a RDM uses, before the mob is even 10% dead, unless the party started the fight with a renkei.

So after that debuffing scheme, I constantly am redebuffing and casting refresh right? So if we take out the casting refresh and toss in a refreshga spell.... it would cost so much mp, seeing as the original refresh is 40mp, that you would spend the next half of the battle sitting down to rest up your mp for the next fight, and then you'd get caught up in not replacing debuffs that are wearing off, and missing MB's cuz u'd be sitting down in the renkei so u can debuff the next mob on the menu....

Face it. If SE put in Refreshga, RDM would be even more boring than it is now... You'd end up sitting for half the fight, to only lose all your mp at the beginning of the next fight when you casted it again....etc...etc...etc...

It won't work, and it won't happen. Play a BLM if you wanna nuke more.

[yepe]

Originally posted by Drynavere

Face it. If SE put in Refreshga, RDM would be even more boring than it is now... You'd end up sitting for half the fight, to only lose all your mp at the beginning of the next fight when you casted it again....etc...etc...etc...

It won't work, and it won't happen. Play a BLM if you wanna nuke more.

OMG, this tops the most retarded post on this topic. Another one to put in my ignore list.

[DrSerpico]

OMG, this tops the most retarded post on this topic. Another one to put in my ignore list.

Of course you should put him on your ignore list. He disagreed with you.

Keep your ignorance up and you'll get a personal lyric from Ill Mitch ^^.

Whms should get Paralyna-ga, Stona-ga, Cursna-ga, Raise-ga.
Rdms Should get GraviGa, RefreshGa, DispelGa...
Blms should get an atomic bomb spell that takes all mp, and does 23276*mp damage in a huge radius, and uses all remaining mp.

All these new implements should drop from Tiny Mandragoras in Sarutabaruta.

Seriously though, isn't it beginning to wear a bit thin calling all who disagree strongly with you morons?

I feel that a refresh-ga spell would make RDM's more overpowered, and you would HAVE to have one in your party. Rdm and NON-rdm camps would form, it'd be a great political war between rdm-lovers and rdm-haters.

Ok, so refresh is a bit hard to keep up with. Boo-hoo. I take pride in being able to juggle para-slow-blind-dia in between refresh, MBing and the occasional regen/cure. (occasional gravi and add sleeps as needed)

I've played whm, rdm and blm into the forties, and the one that takes most "awareness" (at least in my case, experience might vary if you're a horrible player.) is without a doubt the Red Mage.

If you find RDM a bit to tedious and stressing, maybe you should listen to the now ignore-listed poster, and pursue a less taxing career?

[Patchinko]

Stop replying to this thread... it makes Patch cry. ( ;-;)