rdm/nin A GOOD COMBO!

[poppipo]

Today iwas watching a rdm/nin do major dmg on a enemy, comparing ot the dmg of a drk with a good weapon. I aked him how he did do much dmg. He dais that rdm/nin can do so mauch dmg becuase fir of all, all the best swords in the game, rdms can use, second, they can use thing like haste, en fire, on themselves then use a ninjistu to make the enemy weak against the element even more. not to mention that rdm/nin at lv 75 can use utsumi ni, ichi, then blink, +stoneskin and phalanx and protect 3 or something while soloing, or when in a party hate turns there way. Anyway, i then realized that a rdm/nin with good weapons, +srt, and ninjistu, this combo will be one of the most fun, exciting, and good combos in the game a higher lvs. Does anyone else have an opinion to make me look the other way?

[poppipo]

I also forgot about ice spikes, blaze etc

[Bamce Sylph]

don't be stupid, the onlything this post is going to to is instigate another flame fest, i advise u search, read some topics and get a clue, redmage ninja is a SOLO job, its sucks in pts post lvl 30, and is completely unacceptable 55+.

[twylyght]

off topic:

Bamce what happened on March 23 2004 that was important? just wondering

[Bamce Sylph]

ps2 release

[Ruic]

Ooookay. Well you're talking to a RDM/NIN in the flesh now.

Does RDM/NIN do as much damage as a DRK or RNG? No. Not even with a Kraken Club, Enhancing Sword, Joyeuse, Excalibur or combination of the above.

What a RDM/NIN can do in a sense is control time. Through the use of many of the spells you listed, with convert and refresh a RDM/NIN is able to survive against many enemies for hours on end, including NMs. During those long hours the RDM is able to slowly CHIP away at the mob, like a very slow DoT. But with time on the RDM's side, they win the fight at the end of the day everytime.

This is assuming you're talking about ITs in XP groups, and then NMs or HNms (why else would you be hunting at 75?) If you drop the scale down to Even Matches or lower, than RDM/NIN does start doing impressive damage.

Furthermore, debuffing a resistance to the element of your en-spell does almost nothing in my experience, having had both a BRD and my own (half-levelled, keep in mind) Ninjutsu from my /NIN.

So now that I've told you what a RDM/NIN can't do, here are some more things it can.

You can dual wield wands, which does help with landing debuffs, and can compensate for (or give additional stats) over a mage sub.

Chainspell and fast cast work on Ninjutsu. You can chainspell Utsusemi to become untouchable, I currently use this tactic often in BCNMs.

Ultimately RDM/NIN is an extremely demanding job playstyle, and is pretty selfish in that it almost only helps you, the RDM. It shouldn't be used for PT play unless you are in a PT with special circumstances where you are not casting in great volume, or you're functioning as a back-up tank.

[Bamce Sylph]

than you ruic for not being the type of rdm/ninja i've run across on many other forums,

[Mikasa]

Originally posted by poppipo
Today iwas watching a rdm/nin do major dmg on a enemy, comparing ot the dmg of a drk with a good weapon.

..... and then you woke up.

[Patchinko]

It's for solo only. I've posted in a number of easy to find threads before about why (since I went through 45 levels of it in a PT setting).

[Gman]

Originally posted by Bamce Sylph
ps2 release

I will praise the day your computer blows up you arrogant prick.

Nothing wrong with the PS2 release because it brought many quality players to the game.

[Digital]

Originally posted by Ruic
It shouldn't be used for PT play unless you are in a PT with special circumstances where you are not casting in great volume, or you're functioning as a back-up tank.

Which is basically never, especially after refresh and haste...and how much of a tank can you be without provoke anyway?

[Saedius]

Originally posted by Digital


Which is basically never, especially after refresh and haste...and how much of a tank can you be without provoke anyway?

THF SATA's you.

[Bamce Sylph]

Gman, in the first couple days after the ps2 release i got more random tells about helping, powerleveling, money than i had in the whole time i had been playing. yes some good players came with it, yes some bad players came with it, yes there are bad pc players, however every messageboard became flooded with dead horse topics again, people asking the same questions that have been answered time and time again with stickies and faq's on each and every page that could answer they're question.

and yes, i am an asshole, however i am entitled to my opinion just as u are entitled to think i'm an arrogant prick

[Bamce Sylph]

Saedius, i don't know about you, but i'm not going to rely on 2 60 second timer ablities to keep hate for my party, especially when it requires the "tank" to loose hate for it to be effective, its really hard to set up sata when the mob is killing your mages.

yes tricking onto a normal tank is good b/c they have they're own tools to keep hate and this works as a spring board to give them a boost. they could do just as well w/o it

[poppipo]

But what if a thif TA's u, and with all those enhancing defense spells, yud be a pretty damn good one.

[Gman]

Originally posted by Bamce Sylph
Gman, in the first couple days after the ps2 release i got more random tells about helping, powerleveling, money than i had in the whole time i had been playing. yes some good players came with it, yes some bad players came with it, yes there are bad pc players, however every messageboard became flooded with dead horse topics again, people asking the same questions that have been answered time and time again with stickies and faq's on each and every page that could answer they're question.

and yes, i am an asshole, however i am entitled to my opinion just as u are entitled to think i'm an arrogant prick

It's fine if you felt bothered by some of the newbies that came in when the PS2 version released, but to simplify it as "a day of infamy" is going overboard. It's not evil or wrong that the PS2 release happened, it's an adjustment, so deal with it rather than treating it like the worst day in the history of gaming.

I highly doubt people are bugging you now. I know I only get an annoying /tell once in a while, and I'm level 50 RDM, so PL requests are not uncommon.

As a PS2 player myself, I'm sick of the stereotype.

[Kilgraw]

Originally posted by Bamce Sylph
however every messageboard became flooded with dead horse topics again, people asking the same questions that have been answered time and time again with stickies and faq's on each and every page that could answer they're question.
Same thing happened during the NA PC release.

[Bamce Sylph]

popp, yes initally u will get a boost of hate from trick attack, yes however EVERYONE ELSE will be accumulating they're own hate, the reason trick works on tank classes is because they have other things they can use to gather more hate. a redmage has none of those trick except for heals, and have your local pally try to keep hate with only heals, no defender, no eminty gear, no flash, no provoke, no sheild bash, see how well that works.

kil, i wasn't reading a whole lot of boards (was only reading this one at the time, now i cruise about 3-4, and i stay far away from alla's or gamefaq's) during pc release there wasn't nearly as much in english information released as there is now. and on top of that translators are iffy.

gman, congrats on being a competend ps2 player, you know where the message boards are, u know how to read them and if i had to guess i'd say u waited fot ps2 release b/c maybe your comp isn't up to spec to run it? maybe u only have one pc in your house and want to play w/ another in the same house so u got ps2 version, i don't know, what i do know is that my sig was in place at least a month before the ps2 release. however everyone sterotypes everyone else, we have na players and jp players, we have high lvls we have low lvls, we have casual, we have hard core, we have noobs we have elitists, we have pc players we have ps2 players, we have no way of telling from the search pt members screen who or what you are, how you play or anything, u could be a casual 3 hours/day player or u could be an arrogant prick

[Mila]

Imma galka rdm... I do my job just fine! No beter than just fine I do it great! :mad: Another race with a /nin sub will have comparable mp even with all my mp boosting equip. So RDM/NIN will work, just don't think RDM is an easy job to do with limited mp ^^;

[Alucath]

I hope this thread gets closed, it's just flame /sigh.

Search button.
Come oN!

[macross_sdf1]

rdm/ninja with kraken club and excalibur would do crazy damage. But not vs super hnms, since club skill id D so you'd miss like mad, plus its bad to whack super hnms with kraken anyways. But for general farming speed it's hard to beat a kraken club.

All in all rdm/ninja is uber for soloing nms, but you wouldn't do it in pts. It would be feasible if you had a kraken and had a bard for +acc, and you fought stuff with crappy specials, and fought stuff that you could drain mp from.

[neosoul]

Nothing wrong with the PS2 release because it brought many quality players to the game.

Haha, many "quality" players indeed

[Beener]

Originally posted by Gman
I will praise the day your computer blows up you arrogant prick.

Nothing wrong with the PS2 release because it brought many quality players to the game.

I'm sorry...but honestly.......i have met 2.

I have not leveled the WHM sub for my BLM yet because of that release, STILL. I simply cannot without bringing my own LS party, or mostly LS members.

For example, a conversation today:

Titon>> HEY WANNA PARTY (yes all caps)
Xer>> what jobs and levels?
Titon>> 13MNK AND 12MNK AND ...
Titon>> ANOTHER 12MNK
Xer>> no thanks
Titon>> Y NOT?
Xer>> 1. caps hurt my eyes 2. i'm looking for party, not barfight.

This is not to say there are not bad PC players, but the PS2 players just can't seem to learn, nor seem to want to learn.

[R1pp3z]

Originally posted by Beener
I'm sorry...but honestly.......i have met 2.

I have not leveled the WHM sub for my BLM yet because of that release, STILL. I simply cannot without bringing my own LS party, or mostly LS members.

For example, a conversation today:

Titon>> HEY WANNA PARTY (yes all caps)
Xer>> what jobs and levels?
Titon>> 13MNK AND 12MNK AND ...
Titon>> ANOTHER 12MNK
Xer>> no thanks
Titon>> Y NOT?
Xer>> 1. caps hurt my eyes 2. i'm looking for party, not barfight.

This is not to say there are not bad PC players, but the PS2 players just can't seem to learn, nor seem to want to learn.


Yeah but how do you expect them to learn when everyone goes around treating them with that elitist attitude... You could just try being nice once in a while.. (note I said nice...not polite..they are two different things)

[poppipo]

srry i was wrong i looked at the other rdm/nin forums or whatever and im totally wrong

[Beener]

I'm probably one of the nicest people to new players i know. I save everyone i can when i'm in lower level areas, i raise for free whenever i can, i try my best to nudge ppl in the direction of doing their jobs correctly...

Hell, look at that situation...i taught him that he was not making a good party.

Here's a fun new example from my WHM days in the dunes:

I got blind invite in dunes by Fyee, a 15 redmage. i accept

once we get to the camp, i am a little dismayed to find the redmage pulling. The rest of the group and i said that the warrior with the crossbow should pull, and that "Mages generally don't pull." Her response: "But i'm a rdm" me: "that stands for red mage, and you need to get your MP back after a fight"

"WELL I'M LEADER SO I SAY I'M PULLING"

Like i said, some are just not willing to learn ...

[Zalius]

Don't even get me started on the idiot rdms who REFUSE to enfeeble when asked. Seriously I run thru SO many of these people in dunes and up its sad. I am a 52 rdm myself. Bascally when i am lfp in dunes and i see a rdm in party with no sub I think think *oh joy another idiot who dunno how to play their damn class* Which turns out to be true 95% of the time :(.

[moonyaco]

Reasons for having the red mage pull,

1.The melee puller sucks
2.The melee puller isn't highest lvl in pt to con the suitable monsters to kill
3.The melee puller is a noobie ( note:sucking and being a noob are 2 different catagories even though they pertain to the same conclusion)
4.There hasnt been any exp chain happening
5.The red mage is a kickass puller who brings the group great exp chains like for eg. even - even - VT/IT
6.The whm mage is doing his/her job well enough and could use supprt heals during IT/VT mobs or only occasionaly.
7.The rdm could melee/para/dia for every mob untill the whm calls for a meditation break. (not if he spends mana foolishly)
8.The rdm is the leader, highest rank, wants to get exp asap, knows which mobs are easiest for the pt config to kill and chain on.
9.The rdm knows the situation of his pt best, when not to pull and whether the pt can take another even/V/VT or IT, hence pushing the party to its limit and making exp time efficient at its best.
10.The current melee puller is too tired from continuous pulling for the past 4-5 hours and would like a break. If there is no other good puller for the party, the red mage is actually the only versatile mage job that can pull with dia/para, get voked off, debuff with dia/para having both land and maybe adding gravity if its IT/VT. The only times a red mage should just stay back, cast- rest, cast-rest like those whm/blms is when there is no other whm in the party (meaning the rdm is the only healer).

I think stereotyping red mage as a cast and sit job for maximum efficiency is pure ignorance. Rank B in sword isn't as bad as most would think, well maybe untill 55+ when tons of Accuracy+Atk gears are a must for all melee jobs in orde to hit ITs, thats when Rdms, wearing only mana and hp/mana converting gears would start to show signs of lacking.

just a few side notes, Rdm deal decent melee with/without enhancing spells with melee and skill chains chain followed by magic bursts. If they know how to manage their mana well, they're overall contribution to the party would be a lot higher through melee and casting instead of sitting back and nuking/debuff/heal. That would be an inefficent use of available resource

ps. Don't blame other players for being unable to level. This game is not played by only geniuses. If it is, then almost everyone is a dumbass. You have to work with new players and slow learners in some cases to exp. If you can't, then make a perma exp pt (anti-social pt). It is a failure on your part for not being able to convince a less efficient player a better mean of playing his role in the party. Try to be less demanding and persuade them. They will learn to be a better pt player and you will benefit with faster exps.

[neosoul]

Moonyaco, no offense but you have no idea what you are talking about. RDM/melee doesnt outdamage RDM/caster. You can swing your sword all battle with your dingy damage while a good rdm will be healing during fights and put all your damage to shame with a single spell. RDM/NIN, lol...
Not to mention pulling with a RDM is the dumbest idea i ever heard, when you should be regening mana.

[Karinya]

I've pulled with RDM before, but not with an exp party. The safest way to pull Liches for Genkai 1 is Silence. Any other method of pulling may cause them to respond with immediate ancient magic, and you may not be able to run far enough to get out of its range without drawing an add from something else (obviously this depends on where you are pulling from and to, but if you pull with Silence they don't even get to try).

Utsusemi wouldn't have helped in this case - the only advantage it has over Blink is the shorter casting time, and I didn't even need to bother with Blink - Stoneskin was plenty. On the other hand my whm sub was very useful for blindna, paralyna and occasionally curaga, not to mention divine seal cure4 after each convert. (I normally prefer blm sub, but in Eldieme you need status cures a lot, even with whm in party, and giving up Drain and Aspir is a non-issue.)

Partly we resorted to mage pulling because none of the melees had a ranged weapon :eek:, but once we started it worked really well. I don't get to rest much anyway post-Refresh.

In general, though, pulling should be left to rng, thf, or other non-mp-dependent jobs with ranged weapons (war, sam, drk), because a rdm does SOMETIMES get to rest between battles. It's rare that you have a whole party with no competent and prepared non-mage puller.

And rdm, especially after level 30, should sub blm or whm in an exp party, the benefits of doing so far outweigh nin. RDM/NIN may have its place in some quests, missions, or NM hunts (personally I've never seen one that doesn't suck, but it *may* have a place), but it's not a good combo for an exp party in my experience.

BTW - I'm not saying rdm shouldn't melee, only that it isn't the primary focus of the job, and a sj that supports your primary functions (more mp, Conserve MP, seals, more spells) is more useful than one that only supports a secondary function.

[pdac]

Well put, Karinya.

Only place I've seen rdm/nin as useful was soloing at level 74+ to take out hnm's. Only times I've ever pulled was for genkai 1 to get liches, using silence. Best and most reliable method to get 'em in my opinion.

[Synbios]

Originally posted by neosoul
Moonyaco, no offense but you have no idea what you are talking about. RDM/melee doesnt outdamage RDM/caster. You can swing your sword all battle with your dingy damage while a good rdm will be healing during fights and put all your damage to shame with a single spell. RDM/NIN, lol...
Not to mention pulling with a RDM is the dumbest idea i ever heard, when you should be regening mana. I was the puller for my RDM's static. :D Pretty much chain 4 and 5s, tried to get 6 by spamming 2 hr with SAM but failed everytime. D;

[Taurius]

I love RDM/SMNs for lvling PTs. Not just because of their high MP pool, but for one specific reason. Carnbuncle pull XD

There are too many lvling camps where the mobs link. Only real way to pull safely is to use Carbuncle. Nothing sucks more than losing a chain just because the mob you are wanting to pull is too close to another mob. Perfect examples: Rumblers and Helm Beetles in Nest XD

So for those full time RDMs...plz plz lvl your SMN. There's more RDMs than SMNs. So not likely to get a SMN for a lvling PT all the time XD

[moonyaco]

originally posted by neosoul
Moonyaco, no offense but you have no idea what you are talking about. RDM/melee doesnt outdamage RDM/caster.


originally posted by neosoul
Not to mention pulling with a RDM is the dumbest idea i ever heard, when you should be regening mana.

My previous post merely mentions logical reasons and requirements for why a rdm would be pulling, never saying it was the most efficient manner of playing in a party. Well, if your puller sucks/noobs, it would be really smart to just not do anything, sit back and wait for a better puller to come into the picture in YOUR situation. But in my case, i would offer to pull a few times to show that exp could have been better, and perhaps just keep pulling at least until some more ranged job with decent pulling knowledge/skills is in the pt. Then again, are you exaggerating or have you not read many real dumb ideas? I'll give you a few just for your entertainment.

-a rdm should cast bio and dia one after another,
-a rdm must always be a taru cos he'll have more mana and he isn't meleeing anyway,
-a rdm who is 60+ always knows his shit, everything he said is right, and everyone lower should only advice and if he doesn't agree, is a dumb idea.
-a rdm is a whm+blm, not a jack of all trades.
-a rdm has to change the topic into rdm/blm being the most dmging combination cos he is a rdm/blm(but no one asked)
-a rdm must not melee, else its a bad rdm.
-a good rdm heals and cast spells.
-a rdm shouldn't buy new melee weapons since he does dingy dmg.
-a rdm should leave the pt, if the puller sucks.



originally written by neosoul
You can swing your sword all battle with your dingy damage while a good rdm will be healing during fights and put all your damage to shame with a single spell. RDM/NIN, lol...[/

allow me to take a moment to comprehend that...

Good rdm=heal+single spell+bring shame to bad rdm :handsdown
bad rdm(you)=don't heal don't cast spells and do dingy dmg with sword.

Wow, how did you know that i don't heal or cast spells at all? :eek: Umm, you must have partied with me recently or something...but wait, last time i played my rdm was 6 months ago. But then again, if you see a rdm/nin that doesn't heal or cast spells, please quote her name here, it would be quite amusing.

I cast elemental spells during a skill chain effect by my fellow pt mates or when i follow up my skill chain with a magic burst. Besides that, i hardly blast, cos it wont be as efficient for dmg/mana. (rdms get weak nukes for their lvl relative to blm).

From your words, i assume that you have no experience pulling as a rdm or even pulling itself in mmorpg, no experience meleeing as a rdm after your soloing lvls and believe that blm sub is the only way to go.

Bottom line, rdm/nin is the best rdm experience from 20-52, yes i sometimes i play blm sub, but it gets boring too fast. I'm certain that this combo won't last past 54 when you have access to stronger elemental spells and you need high atk/accuracy gears to be able to deal decent dmg to ITs at those lvls( unless you can find lvl 56+ mandragoras, and yeah its no secret you can solo V/VT Mandragoras as rdm/nin easy in Khazam) and THEN blm or whm or smn would sadly be your only viable choice for party.

[DM337]

Originally posted by moonyaco
Bottom line, rdm/nin is the best rdm experience from 20-52, yes i sometimes i play blm sub, but it gets boring too fast. I'm certain that this combo won't last past 54 when you have access to stronger elemental spells and you need high atk/accuracy gears to be able to deal decent dmg to ITs at those lvls( unless you can find lvl 56+ mandragoras, and yeah its no secret you can solo V/VT Mandragoras as rdm/nin easy in Khazam) and THEN blm or whm or smn would sadly be your only viable choice for party.

I love the logic that

Casting = boring

But

Casting + pushing the attack button = thrilling joy ride adventure of a life time!

The 'bottom line' is that /NIN sub doesn't add anything to a RDM. Sure, you can dual wield wands, and get a whopping +2 MND and INT over a mage sub, but that's it. Mage subs can melee too, you know. The ability to wield two swords doesn't magically make you a damage king over someone who cannot. Especially since Dual Wielding gives no melee bonus until you get the second boost, at Lv. 50, at which point a RDM will certainly need a good deal of +accuracy gear. (unless he/she finds that *whiff* noise calming) What does /NIN sub add?

-Dual Wield (already discussed above)
-Utsusemi

Utsusemi is practically useless unless you're soloing. A RDM/NIN can solo VT Mandies? Mandies are some of the weakest monsters in the game, its no real surprise you can solo them. (especially when RDMs can solo other, more challenging T monsters without too much trouble) Blink won't help you when you won't be getting hit, and the only times I've been hit in a party is once or twice before the tank got it off me, and Stoneskin covered that quite nicely. Now, what do the other subs add? (this has been done to death)

/BLM
-Conserve MP (I love this, makes my job so much easier)
-Aspir (not always useable, but seeing as people just LOVE to level off those crabs, you can be sure to get some use out of it)
-Drain (most mana efficient damage/healing spell in the game, great after Convert)
-Elemental Seal (those adds Sleep and stay out)
-Elemental enfeebles (yeah, BLM can cast them better, but do you always party with a BLM who makes a point of casting exactly the right ones you need at the very beginning of each fight? Not very often)

/WHM
-Curaga. RDMs certainly don't gain as much hate as the rest of the party, so we can safely throw these out in battle sometimes.
-Status heals. Spend your mana so the WHM doesn't have to. Plus, with AoE status effects, with you and the WHM working together, you get rid of them in half the time! Erase fits into here as well.
-Divine Seal. Use it for Convert or just to help healing.
-And... Banish... or something.

/SMN
-More MP than the others.
-Carby's Shining Ruby gives a good defense boost.
-Aerial Armor is useful in parties where multiple people take aggro at certain times. (like a PT with a THF, or a trigger happy RNG who holds the hate longer than his Utsusemi lasts, or doesn't sub NIN at all)

So, NIN gives you Blink, which you already had and almost never used, and a marginal increase in melee ability after Lv. 50. (and RDM melee wasn't exactly groundbreaking in the first place) The other subs, well, give abilities that say, help. I also remember that having a mage sub will give you something like 70 more MP than a NIN sub in the 50s. (this was a /BLM sub, so it will differ with different subs) 70 more MP is huge. That's an extra Refresh, a Cure II, and a Paralyze.

RDM melee has its place. RDM can melee decently, and by decently, I mean almost as well as a PLD in some cases. (although PLD get better WS) IF a RDM wants to melee, then he'd better be switching in +accuracy gear, or else its just a waste of his time, he's better of resting for more MP. A RDM shouldn't melee when there's a bad AoE, or when it would be far more beneficial to the party to rest rather than add his small amount of damage melee-ing. With a Dark Staff, I can regain a large chunk of MP after I'm done with my Refresh/debuff cycle. If that MP I regained due to not meleeing would be enough to say, maintain Haste on a melee, then it would be far more beneficial to rest than melee, as the extra damage the melee does from the Haste would be greater than my melee contribution. When I want my damage fix, I opt for MBing Blizzard II rather than melee, its more trouble than its worth.