New Red Mage Melee or not to melee

[Blackwolf795]

Ok i am currently a lvl 12 Elvaan RDM/BLM and am in need of advice on the topic of melee. I was in a party last night i found that i could not land any debuffs. So i told my party that i was going to equip my wand and go to purely mage so i could debuff. They said fine and it worked fine. Right now my equipment is full scale mail with traveler's hat, spatha, aspis, saintly ring enimite's ring (i think that is +2 int lvl 10 ring) and 2 onyx earings. And i carry the lvl 9 wand +2 int and mnd wand with me. I need to know if i should break down buy copies of my rings and change equipment based on the spell or just not melee or what to do. I am pretty sure that i will just buy the rings but i would like input on wether to or not. I am planing on changing between an Int set, a Mnd set, and a MP set of equipment once i get to lvl 20. My main question here is should i break down and change equipment at my lvl or should i just fire off my debuffs till they land and continue meleeing for all i have. Thanx in advance for all help that anyone gives.

By the way plz dont flame me for being Elvaan because it is my favorite class and it is what i am going to be.

[Hopkins]

People are really getting hung on Elvaan recently huh....anyway.

1st is your enfeeble skill capped? If no then just keep plugging away until it is. VT/IT mobs will resist debuffs if you are not near your cap.

2nd. I did much the same, went the way of the wand when i realised I wasn't doing much damage at all to mobs. This wasn't until the low 20's however, at 12 you should still do decent melee.

Strive to cap everything you can. When your looking for PT cast protect, ba-spells, whatever you have over and over.

When in PT's if you have a black mage offer to take over blinding/bio etc to increase your skill. Or go solo easy mobs to boost those skills. A Red Mage who has poor casting skills will turn out to be nothing but a poor Red Mage.

[Tifa]

/agree

Another note, Elvaan have the lowest INT stat of any race, so when casting black magic debuffs, you will be resisted more often than a non-elvaan.

However, you have the highest natural MND stat, so your white magic debuffs should stick more often than other races.

[DM337]

Go ahead and melee, you're still at an early level. RDMs can melee fine until in their 30s. I did it, so you should melee if you feel that it isn't impeding on your magely duties.

[Blackwolf795]

No my enfemblment isn't maxed i am trying to raise it now.:sweat: Thanx for the info. I think I will keep trying to melee. And about my low Int it is normally the black magic debuffs that dont stick. I also have a real problem with sticking paralyze to gobs. But thanx for the help and i will try and max that enfeblment.

Edit: I also chose to sub black mage to try and boost my Int. as much as possible.

[kevinsal]

Grab a sword and get going... You can still cast spells inbetween hacks and hits..

I am a lvl 30 RDM right now and im hitting pretty good with my long sword. I usually hit 1/2 - 3/4 the amount of a warrior at my level with a en-spell.

There is no reason not to melee as a RDM, unless you are the lifeblood of the party as the only healer.

Keep your sword capped though or itll get rough at the higher levels..

[midnilux]

Don't melee. You're a mage.

The only RDMs im ok with meleeing is those that have equipment swap macros and caryy diferent set of gear on the fly, and can handle dispeling, refreshing, etc... I'm only 36 on my RDM and I cant even handle backup healing if I melee, not to mention I do shit damage so I just put on a MND/INT wand stand back and just use magic

[EtRNaL168]

Bah, I still see 65+ Rdm who melees. The decision is entirely up to you I guess. I personally do not melee at all. If I need to skill up my sword, I attend skill up parties.

I don't intend to get poisoned, or get tricked onto by the thf, and all that other good stuff by squishing myself around the mob.

[EtRNaL168]

Oh yeah, btw, a rdm's meleeing will only add some fun factor to the rdm, but the damage he does is extremely insignificant, unless, of course, he does a spirit within when he gets 300%.

[midnilux]

and if he gets a 300% that means he hasnt been resting for like 8 battles cause 90% of their hits are miss

[Discordian]

redmage is probably the best sneak+trick partner around. Stoneskin+phalanx+blink and you are untouchable since you probably have such low agro that it doesn't matter anyways. Our armor for some reason is some of the best AF in the game for this.

[EtRNaL168]

rofl

[kevinsal]

Originally posted by midnilux
Don't melee. You're a mage.

The only RDMs im ok with meleeing is those that have equipment swap macros and caryy diferent set of gear on the fly, and can handle dispeling, refreshing, etc... I'm only 36 on my RDM and I cant even handle backup healing if I melee, not to mention I do shit damage so I just put on a MND/INT wand stand back and just use magic

This is a complete joke, please do not follow his advice. The RDM was designed to melee in battle, he obviously isnt the best but he can melee very well.

The RDM is allowed to wear tough armor and in higher levels you recieve Stone Skin & Phalanx which makes you an even better melee player.

Please dont listen to this clown, if he cant backup heal while melee he has NO skills.

[Smitty]

These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword.

[Rubicon Scarlet]

I'm currently a lvl 60 RDM/WHM and I still melee. I can successfully enfeeble, refresh, dispel, and melee without problems.

I refresh before battle, slow, para, engage the enemy, refresh PLD, dispel if needed, blind, poison, refesh the WHM, dia 2, dispel, chill a sec, refresh BLM, wash-rinse-repeat.

Obviously that's not always the case but it's usually the norm. If you can't do that then you need some RDM practice. If my party asks me to stop meleeing then I will but usually I hear, "Holy sh* you're good."

To me, that's what RDM is about.

[Kilgraw]

If the mob has no AoE spells or attacks, there is no reason you shouldn't run in there and melee. But if you find your hindering your magic in anyway, or if you are taking up a lot of the Whm's cures every battle, sit back.

[Discordian]

You could probably rest a little for the next enemy and get more MP for an additional chain. I don't know about you but 40k tnl xp grind sucks.

[Rubicon Scarlet]

True dat, and when I can get my hands on some higher +MND/+INT clubs and such I'll leave the damage dealing to the other boys. That is the day my enfeebls stop sticking thou.

[Zaleshea]

I'm finding that RDM melee vs. IT - is pointless, hit and enspell damage come up 0 LOL.

[bonovoxpsu]

melee if you want. rest between fights - no tp storing. make sure you're doing your job - refresh/debuff/heal/nuke.

if stuff isn't sticking or aoe is hurting you - take a backseat and equip a wand for stats.

that's pretty reasonable IMHO.

[LockeCole]

Nearly all melee-ing red mages I've partied with don't keep up with debuffs, refresh, healings (they always catch dispel because they're right in front of the mob XD) some are even more concerned about this thing called "tp" rather than their mp <_<. Most think they're doing well, reality, not so good. Also the amount of time you spend casting spells (if you actually play your redmage properly), you might as well just stand at the back rather than impress your 300 total odd damage to the mob. Not to mention melee-ing rdms infuriate bards to no end. ^^.

[Blackwolf795]

Thanx for all the help.

I gave up on red mage as Elvaan at lvl 18 because my War was higher and my Linkshell was angry cause i was being to slow :(

Hehe but i made a Tarutaru Red Mage and i like it pretty well it is only lvl 4 at the moment.

(I am not planning on melee as Taru though i hope thats a good idea......)

[ifandbut]

I agree with bonovoxpsu.....I melay beetles in Quicksands caves and with Shining Blade I can do over 100 dammage at 110% tp or so, but I stay as far away from the Ants as I can.....AOE silence sucks.
LockeCole, it might be different on your server but I'v only had a brd in my pt 2 times between level 39-52. And I do keep up with my enfeebs and refreshes...I'v done it so mutch that I got a feal to when I need to restart the cycle all over again.

I cant wait till I get spirits within....nothing like have near 300% tp after 10 fights and comming accross a mob that seames to be a bit tougher then all the others....just got to add that extera dammage and from what I'v heard....rdms can do some dammage with spirits within. :biggrin:

[Magus401]

Im only level 29, i and i melee...i can do about <.< >.> 15 damage with En- spells XD Im just a little Taru, and i almost never miss with debuffs, and thats why i dont use a wand.. .i know im just a Taru and i dont do much Damage, but its what i like to do. If i wated to Sit in the back and nuke or heal, i would be a black mage or a white mage. Red Mages can use swords, and if you ask me they should put that to use ^^. I really dont hit much though..heh espicially because most of the times im healing and nuking. I never have had problems because im in the front line...i just like swords and magic, thats why ima Rdm! ok sorry for rambling ^^;; im done

[dirtyclown]

i was surprised the other night in a party. i was doing my regular routine of refreshing and stuff, and after we killed a particularly nasty goblin, the thief in the party asked why i wasn't meleeing. i was shocked to get such a question, i never thought anyone would want me to melee in a party. i didn't really know how to answer, so i walked up and smacked a goblin for 3 damage. after it was dead i said "i would melee in a party, but i hit things for 3. and that's when i'm not busy missing." we had a pretty good laugh at that.

[Icemage]

RDM melee just isn't effective at all past level 40. You'll be so busy with enfeeble/refresh/heal/dispel that you only get to land hits a handful of times per battle anyway, certainly not enough to use a WS.

On weak enemies it doesn't matter, but I "adore" ( /sarcasm) RDM who melee and then complain that they can't dispel fast enough because the monsters use their special TP effects too fast. :angel:

Pre-40: Melee is ok, you don't have as many spells to cast, and your damage and accuracy hasn't gone completely down the tubes (yet).

Post-40: You can melee, but the damage is minimal, the monsters get a few more TP, and you won't get to attack much if you're doing your job right anyway.


Icemage

[Rekiem]

Right now my RDM is only 21 but I'm doing more damage than most melee because of the En- spell that add some damage. But its already getting kinda ineffective to melee at this level. By the time Im done with enfeebling and curing, the monster is already at 50% HP. Once I reach 40 with my RDM, I don't think Im gonna melee anymore because of Refresh.

[cnick]

Originally posted by Icemage
RDM melee just isn't effective at all past level 40. You'll be so busy with enfeeble/refresh/heal/dispel that you only get to land hits a handful of times per battle anyway, certainly not enough to use a WS.

On weak enemies it doesn't matter, but I "adore" ( /sarcasm) RDM who melee and then complain that they can't dispel fast enough because the monsters use their special TP effects too fast. :angel:


Icemage

I don't think you can have it both ways. If he is not an effective melee, then the TP added to the monster is insignificant and not a problem. Or he is hitting so much that it's causing an additional TP effect from the monster. If that's the case, I don't know if I would call his damage worthless.

For the record, I usually don't melee usually out of laziness. Obviously, if it's keeping you from doing your main job, then stop. But it's not that difficult to keep up with debuffs/refresh/heals while meleeing.

[ifandbut]

I'm not sure if I saw it in this thread or another thread but it was mentioned that RDMs can be the best sata bitch.
2 reasons
1. RDMs get almost no hate buy the middle of the battle, whitch is usaly when the sata is ready again. So even with sata + ws the amount of hate would be minal at best....proviede the tank has enough hate.
2. Stone skin + phalanx, if the RDM gets more hate then he should with sata, aka the mob gets more then 2-3 hits, this would casue a rdm to take no dammage untill maybe the verry end of another sata off of the tank to get hate back.

This is all provied that the pld has enough hate when the sata is ready again and the mob is not going between 3 different targets because they have the same hate, you can just stand behind the mob, with your sword out if you want, and cast your spells while the thf makes you there bitch:biggrin:

[Zaleshea]

I just stopped. None AOE's only. And...meleeing breaks my concentration, I get really caught up in it. It's just been a long time since I was on the front lines(6 months) and it's so..awesome. How I missed that cool music in battle..

My routine so far is dia/paralyze/slow/blind - at the start of battle in that order.. Being 20, I can use silence.. gotta add that in when I begin taking on worms in Qufim.

Followed with some aero or fire(usually, I cast those once or twice, and save remaining mp for healing and re-debuffing.)

[Jinxie]

IMHO I think that meleeing while you're a RDM is determined by how good of a player you are. Some RDM just cannot keep the debuffs and refreshes coming while they melee. Others do it just as well as if they were sitting in the rear with the other mages. As long as you're not being a detriment to the party, melee all you want......oh yes..this is only if you're not the main healer in the pty. If you are main healer, stay in the back....it will save your life and your ptys.

[csBahamut]

Having played RDM up to 41(On hold till I get my AF1 and Red Cape +1 yet) and PLD to 50, I can say that I prefer RDM to not melee. I prefer all the mages to not melee, especially when I'm tanking. The mobs whips out a LOT more special abilities on me when too many people are whacking on it. I dunno about you, but would you like to have an Exoray spam Dark Spore on you because of melee'ing mages?

The more TP a mob gets, the more beat up the tank can get. Even if you don't get hit by AoE effects, melee'ing can still hurt your party. Crabs: Repeated stoneskin or scissor claws, Crawlers: Def boost(wasted your MP constantly dispelling it), Beetles: Evasion boost(dispel MP drain again) or that power attack(or whatever it's called that can deal some nice damage), to name a few examples. Of course, these are unimportant if you're just fighting Toughs or easier ( except undead or AoE mobs).

[Zaleshea]

Meh, just about every mob is aoe. Not much meleeing going on for me.

[Jinxie]

Originally posted by csBahamut
Having played RDM up to 41(On hold till I get my AF1 and Red Cape +1 yet) and PLD to 50, I can say that I prefer RDM to not melee. I prefer all the mages to not melee, especially when I'm tanking. The mobs whips out a LOT more special abilities on me when too many people are whacking on it. I dunno about you, but would you like to have an Exoray spam Dark Spore on you because of melee'ing mages?

From my experience the number of people meleeing hasn't determined the usage of special abilities from mobs. Exorays and other mobs usually whip out the special abilities (Dark Spore very nasty^^)when there is too much hate drawn from the tank or any other party member. This can be accomplished by flashing too soon, a mage casts a buff (haste refresh) on the tank too soon, the use of a WS too early in battle, a BLM nuking too soon, a WHM using Cure 4 when they should have used Cure 2 or 3, etc etc etc....but not from too many people meleeing. :spin:

[csBahamut]

Some abilities are like job abilities, and can only be used every so often, but others are TP based. Gob bombs and Goblin's Rush are both TP based. Have a bunch of people beat on a gob with weak attacks, and see how often the gobs will use their abilities. You'll notice them using it MUCH more often. Or you could join an alliance running through something(i.e. Coffer hunting, doing a mission, etc), and you'll notice the monsters using a special ability MUCH sooner than if you were fighting it solo. Hate has no effect on if and when they use an ability(as far as I know).

[Discordian]

Originally posted by csBahamut
Some abilities are like job abilities, and can only be used every so often, but others are TP based. Gob bombs and Goblin's Rush are both TP based. Have a bunch of people beat on a gob with weak attacks, and see how often the gobs will use their abilities. You'll notice them using it MUCH more often. Or you could join an alliance running through something(i.e. Coffer hunting, doing a mission, etc), and you'll notice the monsters using a special ability MUCH sooner than if you were fighting it solo. Hate has no effect on if and when they use an ability(as far as I know).

I'll agree with all that was said here. I stopped meleeing when I knew that it really wasn't helping and I could get xp faster if I wasn't.

[Apple Pie]

From my experience the number of people meleeing hasn't determined the usage of special abilities from mobs.
You may want to try hitting Moss Eaters with 18 people near the PT hunting Robber Crabs in Boyahda. You'll see 6 dead bodies in 20 seconds or so unless they don't use spinning kick at all.

Whether it is physical or magical, each hit gives them chance to build their TP.

[csBahamut]

I thought casted magic spells don't give the monster TP(changed in a patch since US release)? Or do you mean magic based attacks, like Weapon Skills(i.e. Seraph Blade, Freezebite, Starburst, etc.)?

[Apple Pie]

Any spells causing some damage (including slip damage) give them 10TP.

Enfeebling spells such as Blind, Paralyze and Slow don't. Neither do En- and -Spike spells.

I'm not sure this theory is somewhat changed or not with recent update but I'm sure it was until December 2003.

[Rekiem]

I don't think magic gives TP to monster because when I play in all BLM parties, the monsters rarely ever use specials or WS on the tank. Almost all the damage comes from the nuking.

[Apple Pie]

Haven't checked this recently but is there anyone trying to check how much TP you get when you are hit with elemental spells or Bio/Dia?

This will conclude this topic.

[csBahamut]

I never get TP when hit by spells(be it one shot, or DoT). I'll double check once I get home.

[edit]

When I was leveling BLM on worms(solo), I never had them once use a special ability. They only tried to cast spells. Maybe others who have done this with RNG or BLM could verify it too.

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by csBahamut
I never get TP when hit by spells(be it one shot, or DoT). I'll double check once I get home.

[edit]

When I was leveling BLM on worms(solo), I never had them once use a special ability. They only tried to cast spells. Maybe others who have done this with RNG or BLM could verify it too.

I had the same experience. Never had it use anything unless somebody went up to it and tried to whack it. Just cast stonega and stone, pretty much.

[Apple Pie]

It seems that the old theory still works. I'm creating new movie proving that spells give them tp. I'll post it here as soon as WMV9 encoding is done.

[EDIT]

Here it is.
http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/spells_tp.wmv

I didn't hit it with my sword, nor was I hit at all. What I did was just spamming Stone. However, the skink still used the special attack, Scythe Tail.

For your reference (if this old theory is still true),

When their TP >= 100% and HP > 20%, they randomly use their special attacks. On the other hand, when their HP <= 20%, they use those whenever they have 100% TP.

Therefore, for BLM PT, you may not see them at all.

[Apple Pie]

As for getting TP from spells, I'm so tired (It's already 7:45 AM here!!!) that I won't do any experiment now. I'll bring my LV1 PLD and check that with worms.

[csBahamut]

Could that have been a Job-like ability? Maybe monsters gain TP over time(albiet slowly)?

[lionx]

Maybe attacking but missing still gives em TP? I think i read somewhere that if a hare misses you for soo many times it will eventually use an ability...not sure on the validity of the statement however.

[Apple Pie]

I never get TP when hit by spells(be it one shot, or DoT).
So, you might live in the different world.
http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/spells_tp2.wmv

As you see on the clip, I gained 5% TP when I was hit by Stonga. So, I'm pretty sure S-E hasn't changed the logic since day one (JPN release).

These are what we have as our common sense.

1) We gain 5% TP when we are damaged by elemental spells while they gain 10% TP.

Note: When we get 0 damage, we don't gain any TP. Neither do they.

2a) When their HP is > 20%
They randomly use their WS when their TP >= 100%.

2b) Whe their HP is =< 20%
They use their WS whenever they store 100% TP.

3) How they gain their TP from our physical attacks?

[TP(%) given] = [TP(%) we acquire] + 3%

Note: Damage > 0

For example, if I get 6% TP with my sword, they get 9% TP from my attack.

[csBahamut]

I'm going to have to see this for myself. I can't believe it. but I have too ; ;

[edit]

IT'S TRUE! IT'S ALL TRUE! GAH! MY HEAD.

It seems spells give TP. About 5 per hit I think it was. As long as it deals damage initially, you get TP.

[Patchinko]

Does any spell cause TP gain, or is it only area-of-effect spells?

Regardless, the final situation (our TP + 3% TP gain per hit) does discourage a RDM from meleeing to hit the mob for 10dmg when it's going to give the mob 10%TP, for example.

[Apple Pie]

Does any spell cause TP gain, or is it only area-of-effect spells?
Any "elemental" spells inflicting damage (>0). As for Burn, Choke and others inflicting slip damage, they don't seem to do that.

Then, I remember both Bio and Dia does that, too but this is only when they inflict 1 or higher direct damage (not slip one) on them.
does discourage a RDM from meleeing to hit the mob for 10dmg when it's going to give the mob 10%TP, for example.
I don't intend to say that but we may want to avoid meleeing when we fight with one-shot killers like Scorpions.

Furthermore, in early stages before we get Dispel, we should use weapons with higher base damage for efficiency (between TP-given and damage). We don't want to see crabs casting Scissor Guard frequently, do we? :)

BTW, as Ruic stated on another thread, using bow from the distance is a good idea. Bow + Arrows are far superior to our 1H sword. We don't miss a lot in early stages (not a big difference between A and D skill). Gears boosting ranged accuracy are very cheap. Therfore, I don't blame any LV20s subbing RNG for +10 accuracy and ranged accuracy although I recommend /BLM or /WHM at LV30 or above.

[Patchinko]

Originally posted by Apple Pie
I don't intend to say that but we may want to avoid meleeing when we fight with one-shot killers like Scorpions.I think any NIN would probably appreciate less Sickle Slash in his diet, for example.^^

[Jinxie]

I noticed something when killing Exorays the other day. The standard pty stuff was going on...puller was pulling exoray, pld voked exoray, Exoray ignored pld and used Dark Spore on BLM. The BLM didn't do anthing to the mob.....just stood there and died...wtf?

[Patchinko]

Sitting can draw hate, so maybe that's why.