A question about double Ballad

[Xerlic]

I was exp'ing in Eldieme last night. I would do the usual Madrigal/Minuet on the melees, then I'd run back and double Ballad the mages and the paladin. Then I noticed something strange. I was only getting 1 mp/tick and the paladin was only getting 4 mp/tick since he had refresh on and I didn't. So I'm thinking that maybe something messed up with Ballad. We pull again and I do the same thing and the same thing happens. So I toggle through my buffs and I see that Minuet was still on me even though I had sung ballad twice. I checked my logs. On the third time, I cast Ballad II and waited. I was getting 2 mp/tick and the paladin was getting 5 mp/tick. I then cast Ballad I and I was getting 1 mp/tick and the paladin was getting 4 mp/tick. So, Madrigal was getting overwritten by my first cast of Ballad since it was the first song. But, the second ballad was overwriting the first ballad even through Minuet was cast before it.

So my question is regarding stacking the same type of song when you already have songs effects on you. Are there certain properties about this that I just don't know about, or is this just something flat out strange? BTW, the paladin and I were getting double ballad if I cast a third Ballad, so I'd have to do Ballad I, II, I or II, I, II. The mages were getting both ballads fine since they weren't getting Minuet or Madrigal.

[Gak912]

This is a problem that occurs with playing certain songs after other ones. When you played Madrigal/Minuet, you were probably using a (song)+2 instrument. Let's say a +2 will extend the lasting time of a song to 2 minutes and 20 seconds (to be honest I do not remember how long the bonus is). So if you play Madrigal/Minuet with an instrument bonus, you have 2 songs running on a 2:20 timer. Now when you play ballads, the first one could have a 2:00 timer while Madrigal or Minuet has 2:01 or more left before it runs out. So when you play the second ballad, that ballad and the other melee song you played will take priority over the first ballad since the melee song had a longer timer left.

The only thing you can really do to remedy this, would be to play Ballad 1 then Ballad 2 so you get 2MP/tick (and don't get any melee songs on the PLD so he can receive both ballads). The other solution is to wait a little while after playing Madrigal/Minuet, so the time left on those songs will be lower than ballad when you play them. During this time you can do cures/status cures, or reapply debuff songs to the monster if they ran out or got resisted.

[Xerlic]

I did not take the instruments into consideration. Yes, I use Cornette+1 and Traversiere+1 for Minuet and Madrigal. I did not realize that the timers determine the priorities. Yes, this answers my situation perfectly. Thank you very much. :)

[Xccoortri]

I've never had this problem...it makes sense though, you sing the first song, and then you sing the second, then debuff the mob, then by the time you sing the third it should be 20 seconds later then the very first song, and by the time you sing the 4th song (second ballad) it really should be later then the second song as well...

I've never seen the + instruments overwrite before, so I guess my rythm is just slow enough to take more then 20 seconds to sing 3 songs.

[Rekiem]

The best suggestion I can give you to get rid of this problem is to stop using a Cornette. So when you do Madrigal, then sing Minuet, then move to the mage and start singing Ballad1/Ballad2, Ballad will cancel Minuet because it will have less time remaining on the song.

[Sketch]

Wait a second....

I've been noticing this lately too, utterly confused as to why I only have ballad1 even though I just sung both.

If the Cornette and the Travesiere (or whatever) only add to the duration of Minuet and Madrigal (by approx. 20 seconds), and that extra 20 seconds only really hurts more than it helps, then what's the point?

Why shouldn't I just get rid of my annoying fading in and out all the time from macro equipment changes and get some money back by selling those instruments?

[Rekiem]

Keep the Traversiere, its the best Bard instrument. Get of rid the Cornette. When you do your song, start with Madrigal and then sing Minuet, you shouldn't have this problem anymore.

[Sketch]

Wait, wait... so the instruments DO add to song effectiveness rather than just the duration? If that's the case I might just wait the 20 seconds...

[Vilurum]

They add to effectiveness as well as duration. It's a flat boost to both. (Cornette +1 is +5 attack no matter whether it's a minuet with high skill or low skill, minuet 1 or minuet 4.)

Of course, you can only see the numerical effectiveness boost for Minne, Requiem (kind of ... you can't really see a difference on HP/tick outside of ballista or extremely low level enemies), Minuet, Etude, Carol, and Paeon. For Threnody, Lullaby (if that even changes), Mambo, March, Madrigal, Elegy, Prelude, and Virelai (again, if it even changes), you have no numerical guide to see just how much the flat effect is.

Basically, you have two viable solutions: stop playing Minuet with a Cornette +1, or do some other stuff between Minuet and your first Ballad, so that when you do sing Ballad, it'll wear off later than Minuet. You only need to kill about 12 seconds or so, taking singing time into account. (A little less, even, since you're moving around.) Spend the time curing, debuffing, or meleeing ... you usually have stuff to do. ^^

[sudo]

brd melee rox!

why not melee? I think it's perfectly viable. How else are you going to keep up your staff/dagger/sword skill for maat fight come lv 70?

Do it during pt's to save yourself a headache later on. YES! now I feel justified to do so too!

[Rekiem]

I simply don't use a Cornette instead. Makes my life 10 time easier and I don't ever have to worry about not getting Ballad. The fighters lose +2 Attack, which is totally insignificant.

[Vilurum]

Well, they'd lose +5 attack if it had been a Cornette +1 instead, but even so, the difference is really quite minimal, I agree.

Having said that, I'm usually wanting to throw out debuffs as early as possible in the battle. Combine that with the fact that the mages should still have their Ballad/Ballad II from the end of the previous battle, and it's an excellent excuse for which to get those debuffs out of the way before refreshing the ballads.

[UnnamedGalka]

Yes, +instruments do indeed increase the power as well as the length of your songs.

And to digress for a bit:

brd melee rox!

Umm, not really. When you're hitting an IT mob for 0-5 damage while the WAR standing next to you is hitting for 90+, it makes you feel kinda pathetic.

[Leri]

Usually I throw out debuffs or cures inbetween the 2 sets or just wait a lil while.

But when I'm rushed and forget I just resing Ballad 2.. always works. :biggrin:

[Xccoortri]

Well, unless your party is pulling incredibly fast, then you should be singing the ballads onto your mages in between pulls, then when you sing your melee songs the the mages will have had ballad on already. This gives you time to sing the two melee songs, debuff the mob, prelude if you have a range, and then the 20 seconds should be up by then, and you can go refresh the ballads even though they won't have worn yet.

['Shy]

I don't quite understand this, because when I sing my songs they never overlap between mages and melees. Mages simply stand at the back out of range. It goes something like:

Stand with the mages
Sing Ballad 2
Sing Ballad 1

Target mob
Requiem
Elegy
Threnody

Run up to mob
Madrigal
Minuet
Hunters Prelude on ranger

Run back to Mages
Pld backs up a little
Sing Ballad 2
Sing Ballad 1

If it's a long fight then Requiem and Elegy again

etc
etc

The key is distance, in my opinion, and everyone gets the songs they need.

[Vilurum]

The issue is mainly for the songs *you* end up with (and in this case, the PLD is also at risk). The melees will get their melee songs refreshed over and over, same for the mages. But you and the PLD will get the long-duration melee songs, then the short-duration ballads.

And unless you have a significant pause between the second melee song and the first ballad (or the second melee song was not played with a song+ instrument), then the ballad will replace the first melee song ... and then the second ballad will replace the first ballad, rather than the second melee song.

If a song is already in place, (re)singing it will replace the old version of the song. If a song is not already in place, singing it will replace whichever song will wear off sooner - in almost all, but not quite all, cases, this is the song which was sung first. This topic is about what to do when it's the song which was sung second. In that situation, the ballad, despite being played later, will wear off sooner due to no instrument bonus. Thus it, rather than the second melee song, would be replaced by the second ballad.

The solution is to make ballad wear off later than the second melee song. Do this either by delaying ballad, or by not boosting the second melee song's duration.