as a Taru Pld

[Megakurth]

As a taru paladin with warrior subbed, is it worth it to use a physical earring at all (+25 hp -25 mp). I know that the MP is our main strength in holding hate, but would the added hp make a difference? Im currently lvl 18 pld/war and was possibly planning on using 1 of these at 20. Please leave some feedback

[Drachol]

Most the Taru PLD that I see wear those earings, so I'm pretty sure you should get them.

[FAILURE]

Don't use them, the whole advantage of Taru Paladin is the MP and without it we're just Humes with less VIT. In EXP parties, HP means absolutely nothing as long as youre putting your MP to full use. At 60 I have 992 HP, and I have never seen anything worth fighting for EXP that could possibly do that much damage in 1 hit. Use some stat increasing earrings instead that will make you a more efficient tank, like Drone Earrings at 35 (+3 AGI) or the +2 VIT one.

[Kurai-Tenshii]

Um, use them...the agi earrings don't effect much because since you're a paladin, your evasion is going to suck regardless of your race, as well even with the agi bonus, you're still going to get criticalled enough for it not to make a difference or be worth the slot.

Use at least one physical and another pidgeon earring probably, +45 HP and you'll still have over 400 MP by level 60, and have over 1000 HP too. Because you're a taru you end up with more vit bonuses than other races due to extra vit equip like steppe belt and steppe sash, and the taru RSE glove at 62. Your MP is your strength, but losing 50 doesnt make you a hume with less vit, it just makes you a hume with more MP, hume vit isnt that much higher than a tarus.

[Dano]

hmm... depends on what monster are you fighting

you would want the hp if you are fighting monsters that has the possibility of one shooting you. ie. Spider's sickle slash, skeleton's hell slash.. etc

you would want the vit if you are fighting stuff that attacks fast but doesnt hit much. ie. Mandragoras, or other monk type monsters.

[Rones]

Low taru max hp will give your healer fits against spiders, exorays, and af3 nms. I personaly greatly dislike working with a taru pld because its nearly impossible for me to get more than one tic of heal in to help keep my mp up before I have to stand up and cap his hp again. The lower hp may not be an apparent hinderance to the pld, but your whm definitly notices it who has much less margin for error.

[Atoman]

I think having a good supply of hp is a good idea, but you can still do that w/o giving up much mp. Lvl 50 taru belt, IM neckpiece, lvl 62 creek mits if you don't mind giving up some AF for xp pts, 2 pigeon earrings. That is somewhere in the neiborhood of 130-150 extra hp, and you don't have to give up one bit of mp to do it.

Obviously I speaking of higher lvls, but before then nothing really hits you so hard that it could 1 shoot you. It seems around lvl 50 the mobs start to develop much stronger attacks and ws's.

[Adohleas]

I would keep your MP if I were you.
I have a Taru PLD level 60, and I have only died as a PLD about 6 times, mainly from the mistakes of pullers.

MP for the Taru PLDs is a huge advantage.
With the extra MP, we can create alot more aggro. Also with it we can keep the healer from having to heal us as much.
Another thing you need to look at, Trading that 25 mp for 25 hp is a loss of healing magic which cures more hp then it cost of mp.

I disagree with Rones, a good Taru PLD can make a healer really bored at times if used correctly, especialy at the lower levels when you can level up fine without a healer(1-33, you can use your healer as a nuker during these levels, lol).
Taru PLDs are only bad if they do not know how to play their characters correctly and to the fullest.

[Rones]

I disagree with Rones, a good Taru PLD can make a healer really bored at times if used correctly, especialy at the lower levels when you can level up fine without a healer(1-33, you can use your healer as a nuker during these levels, lol).
That's an excellent way to get loads of downtime. Taru pld regen mp just as fast as galka pld. Having a taru pld go excessive in the healing with his extra mp isn't going to help anyone except slow your party down. As well, you are just being silly if you think pld can act as his own main healer in qufim + kazham unless you don't plan on ever having an exp chain. And having your healer nuke?! I guess if you want even more downtime. If taru pld had a way to regain mp faster than other races, what you say would be true, but they don't. Its not the size of the gas tank, its how efficient you are with it that matters.

Taru take the most dmg with equal gear out of all races and since the size of mp tank is insignifigant compared to how fast you refill it, taru have nothing going for them as a pld.

In further response to the origonal post, buy some Hp+/mp- gear, and have a macro that equips it after your mp drops below 3/4 or 2/3 so the healer has a larger hp cap to work with. Then switch back to def/vit gear after your mp is about to cap while resting. This is a bit tiring at first, but two macros slots can handle it and it will help somewhat with the low taru hp cap.

[Loial]

/agree Rones on MP issues

Having a bigger MP pool means nothing for a PLD once you have to regen it all back.

I had my MP problems as a Galka and was going to go so far when I hit 50 as to get that +40MP belt. But once you start grouping with BRDs and RDM 100% of the time, you quickly realize that your PT can have 0 downtime if it works together well.

Taru's weakness is two-fold. On a base level, they will take more damage because of their low vit and even worse have significantly less HP than other races.

I'd think that Taru PLD should load up on +HP gear even if they are sacrificing MP doing it. Look at it this way... @52 Sickle Slash was hitting a Galka PLD for about 700 (on the high high end). Unless the Taru PLD is at 100% hp before the attack... and then the healer is Cure IIIing once again during Sickle Slash... you'll have many a splattered Taru :(

Of course that is just one scenario; Rones hit it again with regards to a lesser margin of error. The longer your healers can rest and regen those extra few ticks of MP, the less downtime you get overall.

You really don't even need a super-high-damage attack like Sickle Slash or Jet Stream to do it. With enough bad luck, a series of crits + mob WS can cause a lot of trouble.

Load up on the HP, tiny fellow PLDs. The rest of us keep hate with measly and meager MP pools. You can afford to lose some.

[Kurai-Tenshii]

actually Rones you're wrong...

In kazham and quf I did heal myself without a whm or any other form of healer, they started asking me if they could skill up they're clubs on the crabs and mandras because i was barely taking 30 damage from them. Also, it was up to chain 4 - 5, like all parties, it doesn't matter.

The vit difference between a hume and taru isn't enough to even be acknowledged, and considering that taru get a lot more vit bonuses than what is offered to hume, elvaan, or galka even if they use merc earrings and the taru doesn't...there's nothing to set us aside from them, mithra VIT is still below a humes and not above a tarus, they take just as much damage as we do. Why have the tarus you partied with taken more damage? Probably because they were horrible as a PLD, not because of their race choice.

And with the +HP items, I have about 30 - 35 less HP than a hume at the current level. I have 1013 HP currently at 57 with 367 MP. I barely use more than 100 MP every battle and with refresh I serve the purpose of a back up healer and I don't need more than a cure III every 30 seconds. You just figure you have a BLM usually, a BRD, and a RDM, or a BLM, WHM, and RDM, at least I try to in a party, BRD can heal, RDM can heal, BLM can heal if needed but shouldnt have to. BRD (or whm), RDM, plus you all cast cure III at the same time, and you're near full HP as it is.

MP does matter to some small extent weither some PLD want to admit it or not. Show me the galka or elvaan that keeps hate off a 600 dmg sidewinder followed by a blizzaga II MB without sneak and trick attack in mid battle and still have MP to chain again for the next fight...also without having to use cover, since I never have to.

[Biterman]

With a good RDM or BRD we Taru PLD dont even need a whm in PT. 2 weeks ago I PT with some friends and they were set to get a whm for the last spot, even when I practically beg them to get a good damage dealer instead. We set out and lo and behold, the whm barely had to heal me. A wasted spot.

Yes, we regen mp at the same rate as a galka, difference is we pack quite the mana pool.
For example, imagine at lvl 50 you have a good RDM that keeps you refreshed and no whm in PT(thats one extra damage dealer, so mob should die quicker). A intelligent galka/elvaan that has macro to switch +mp equip uses 2 flash and 3 Cure III. Thats near 50% of their total mp. A taru PLD uses 2 flash and 3 Cure III for about 1/4 of his/her total mp.

At this rate the PT will have to slow some after the 3rd mob, while the PT with the taru PLD can go at it non stop. Remember this in a PT with no whm and an extra very useful damage dealer. Things will only get better for me at 51 once I use a dark staff.

So while I understand Rones great dislike to work with a Taru PLD, thing is we taru PLD dont need him at all. God bless good RDM and BRD's. :biggrin:


Now, you SHOULD use Physical Earrings up to lvl 32 when you can go for Pigeon or 35 if you want drone. You will notice the difference, it helps at low lvls. The -50 mp wont hurt you. Remember to eat your Fish mithkas or Boiled Crab, and do your best to lvl cook to 30 so you can make your own Pineapple juice.
I also advice to use Tawu jammies (RSE) up to lvl 40, except for the body armor of course. At 36-37 upgrade the Centurion body armor and at 40 dump all RSE and go IM/Ryl. Squire.

[Loial]

At this rate the PT will have to slow some after the 3rd mob, while the PT with the taru PLD can go at it non stop.
<---- Galka PLD. We never stop. It isn't an MP issue... or a Galka PLD vs Hume PLD vs Taru PLD issue.

Its a good group vs. bad group issue.

[Rones]

The thing you are forgetting, is that in places like kazham and qufim, if you are going without a whm, that means your party is having lots of downtime between fights while you rest up your mp without clear mind. While if you had a whm, he can rest during the fight and keep up his mp much longer than a taru pld. A taru pld could act as solo healer for a couple mobs, but then you are going to have a wonderful 3-4 mins of downtime to regain your mp and have no hopes of exp chain. FYI Mandy's hit like little girls, whms can tank those wusses and not take much more dmg than a pld.

For example, imagine at lvl 50 you have a good RDM that keeps you refreshed and no whm in PT(thats one extra damage dealer, so mob should die quicker)
You are lying to yourself if you think 1 mp per second from refresh is going to be enough to get you past chain 1 or 2. Considering a good pt will have about 10-15 seconds at most between pulls, that isn't enough time for any resting. So you are restricted to your 120 mp every 2 min fight, and I can vouch that at lvl 50 your healer is going to be using 300-450 mp per fight (one more dmg dealer isn't going to half that), but that's ok because they can have a dark staff, +mp regen food, and rest during the fight. At your mp use rate as main healer, you would never get past chain 2 (if you are lucky to get past chain1).
We set out and lo and behold, the whm barely had to heal me. A wasted spot.
That's just a sign that you were over healing and causing your party extra downtime by forcing them to wait on your mp, or you were fighting Even-Tough mobs.

Again, you act like you can be main healer once you get the "almighty" refresh, but must I remind you that you would be regaining mp at the same rate as a galka pld, again nullifying your advantage of having a larger mp tank. As well, if you think pld can efficiently act without a healer....I hope you like your terrible downtime. :sweat:

The size of your mp tank gives you NO advantages. Its all about how fast you can refill it, which is same for all races.

[Artonis]

Originally posted by Loial

<---- Galka PLD. We never stop. It isn't an MP issue... or a Galka PLD vs Hume PLD vs Taru PLD issue.

Its a good group vs. bad group issue.

It's true.

Every Race works. I have more HP than taru, they have more MP than me.

I can take hits longer if I don't time my cures right. Taru can Cure a lot more than I can.

It's all relative.

[Kurai-Tenshii]

In kazham, you use pineapple juice + ballad during battles and between. 2 mp refresh is enough when you dont use more than Cure, even with 15 seconds between pulls.

And as everyone's been saying brd + rdm can make MP problems go away for everyone. Ballad I + Ballad II + refresh is 5 mp regen. That's more than enough I need to spam Cure III. Provided the BRD is good and willing enough to get ballad I and II on me during battle.

EDIT: Our MP tank does give us an advantage, you're kind of missing the point. We don't need our MP like the other tanks, true, but the fact is that it's there and it CAN and does take stress off the mages. If you had a taru never using their MP besides to keep hate, and then you're running low on MP or something for whatever reasons you have. Just let the taru spam their MP pool and you can rest, if the taru isn't doing that and you're not being supported in healing while you are trying to get MP back, then you're party is just bad.

[Biterman]

Originally posted by Rones Again, you act like you can be main healer once you get the "almighty" refresh, but must I remind you that you would be regaining mp at the same rate as a galka pld, again nullifying your advantage of having a larger mp tank. As well, if you think pld can efficiently act without a healer....I hope you like your terrible downtime. :sweat: [/B]

If by terrible downtime you mean zero, then yeah, I love it.

How hard is it for you to understand my post? Where did I mention I was going to be the main healer? I CLEARLY stated that all a Taru PLD needs its a good RDM. Last time I checked RDM can cast Cure III at my lvl. The RDM WILL be the main healer.

The absolute best PT's I have ever been part of, no matter my job, have all one thing in common: no WHM and a great RDM.

Now, about the Galka mp. Again, dear god ... I think I might be speaking/typing in Martian here cause there is always someone that just quite doesnt get it.
A galka pld doesnt translate into downtime, my post was aimed towards a very specific PT setup, which works like a charm for a Taru PLD.
For the Nth time, all races regen mp at the same time as a PLD but as a Taru PLD that means you will be able to cast at the very least two more Cure III WITHOUT adding downtime at all. Seriously guys and girls, how hard is it to understand that?

[Kurai-Tenshii]

It's just that every race keeps hate differently, Taru's just tend to use more MP to keep hate in higher level situations, but it doesn't mean that I ever run out. The lowest i've ever been during normal leveling situations is 200 out of 300+ MP..I don't cause any downtime and there should always be more than just the WHM healing...that does seem kind of stupid. BRD can heal, RDM can heal, BLM can heal, they should all heal as needed watching the tank, other party members, and everyones MP.

[Rones]

Where did I mention I was going to be the main healer? I CLEARLY stated that all a Taru PLD needs its a good RDM. Last time I checked RDM can cast Cure III at my lvl. The RDM WILL be the main healer.
So while I understand Rones great dislike to work with a Taru PLD, thing is we taru PLD dont need him at all.
The above statement you made can easily be read as meaning you don't need any main healer because as a whm I represent one of three main healers (rdm, whm, smn). I took your statement to mean that you would be the only healer like you claimed to do in qufim and kazham.

As well, you are right except for the fact that its not your large taru mp tank there making the difference, its the rdm A rdm can easily mimic a whm as a main healer with his refresh and convert to help him out. I've always been under the opinion a rdm+whm combo is best, but a rdm acting as main healer works.
For the Nth time, all races regen mp at the same time as a PLD but as a Taru PLD that means you will be able to cast at the very least two more Cure III WITHOUT adding downtime at all.
If only that were true. So you can throw a couple extra cure IIIs than galka and elvaan, when do you regen the mp for those without ever adding any extra downtime? I would really like to know as would all mp users on this forum. :rolleyes:
And as everyone's been saying brd + rdm can make MP problems go away for everyone. Ballad I + Ballad II + refresh is 5 mp regen. That's more than enough I need to spam Cure III. Provided the BRD is good and willing enough to get ballad I and II on me during battle.
No pld would ever have mp issues with a brd+rdm, being taru doesn't enhance that situtation. Also, if you are able to get a brd and a rdm consistently in your party, more power to you. :thumbsup:
The absolute best PT's I have ever been part of, no matter my job, have all one thing in common: no WHM and a great RDM.
I don't care how you spin it, pre 40, whm will outperform a rdm as main healer (ignoring player skill or lack there of). That statement is just nieve. Also, I can't wait to see you cringe as you eat a raise 1 at 60+ and lose 1,500+ exp instead of 500 with raise 2. (Everyone dies sometimes, don't try to lie about that)
Taru's just tend to use more MP to keep hate in higher level situations, but it doesn't mean that I ever run out
That's exactly the point I'm trying to get at. Taru have to use more mp, but they regain it at the same rate as every other race. Thus, they are lesser efficient no matter how you look at it.

[Loial]

For example, imagine at lvl 50 you have a good RDM that keeps you refreshed and no whm in PT(thats one extra damage dealer, so mob should die quicker).

Tack on a 55BRD and you got 2mp/second... but then there goes your extra dmg.

If post50 you expect the RDM to be the main healer and have the Taru PLD support the rest... you are looking for trouble there. The RDM will have enough to do with debuffing the mob and Refreshing himself and the PLD (and any other MP needing job) to be main healer. If he did all that...he'd run out of MP first.

Then consider that there seems to be some fixation on the Taru MP pool. It must be regened at some point. If the Taru plans on being the "backup healer" for himself... there will still be downtime. Mobs hit a lot harder in your 50s and you will be dumping Cure IIIs like no one's business.

To keep your MP up... you will either need to slow down pulls and lose chains... or pick up another healer.

If you got into a static with a RDM and a BRD, well then that lessens this problem.

Holding hate pre 50 is cake. You can hold hate (no THF) with just job abilities and Flash... maybe one or two cure IIs, tops.

I've seen Taru PLD in action. It works very nicely... but you will need more healers than just a RDM after level 50.

Just a quick example, let's say you are in Boyahda fighting spiders. On average at level 52ish, I'd expect to take about 3 Sickle Slashes per fight... averaging about 500dmg each. That works out to almost 8 Cure IIIs just to negate that damage... forget that the mob will probably be hitting for for 80+ per otherwise.

So, about 368mp will be spent by someone just to keep you alive from Sickle Slashes... The Taru PLD will probably have to heal up at least 1/2 that to counterbalance the hate built up by the RDMs healing + debuffs. 1/2 isn't so bad to ask anyway if the Taru has a ton of MP. So, that's 184MP... Refresh = 1mp/second... 3 minutes to regen the MP spent on just sickle slash. I'm sure that the normal dmg caused by the spider is probably greater than the Sickle dmg anyway. (Note: I only used that as an example because Boyahda is a common hunting ground for level 52-53)
Forget about the RDM needing to regen that MP back.

So... how do you expect to chain much if you'll need 3 minutes+ to recover the MP from one fight? I understand that you are regenning during the battle...but I also took out all the cures the Taru will need to keep himself alive... he'll have the hate no problem.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying Taru PLD are poor PLD. They hold hate like no one's business...and it must be nice for THF to actually be able to see around the PLD for trick :) Level 50+ is a different ballgame when it comes to holding hate, how much enemies hit for, and what your PT will need to be successful.

If you plan on just having a RDM as a healer, best of luck... but you will need another healer to keep the chains coming.

[Nimmin]

imagine at lvl 50 you have a good RDM that keeps you refreshed and no whm in PT(thats one extra damage dealer, so mob should die quicker). A intelligent galka/elvaan that has macro to switch +mp equip uses 2 flash and 3 Cure III. Thats near 50% of their total mp

Actually, at level 50 a galka wouldn't have enough MP for 2 Flashes and 3 Cure III.. I'm 52 right now and my max MP with astrals, RSE gloves, and holy phial is 177.. 50 + 138 = 188, so I'd have to wear another piece of my RSE or a hairpin at the very least to get out that third Cure III. Back to the matter at hand, any race can be a good paladin. I've held hate through 2k bene's and 1k freeze bursts, it's all about how you manage hate. That being said, sometimes I do look at my MP pool and get a little depressed, but I know that I use every last drop of it as best I can, which is all that really matters in the end.

[Biterman]

Originally posted by Rones
If only that were true. So you can throw a couple extra cure IIIs than galka and elvaan, when do you regen the mp for those without ever adding any extra downtime? I would really like to know as would all mp users on this forum. :rolleyes:
Someone is missing a brain here. Read Nimmin post. With his mana pool and refresh he will most of the time be close to 3/4 of his mp for the full chain. Us taru, adding 2 cure more per fight will hover around half our mp for the full chain. No downtime added, Galka or Taru. Difference is the % of mp we hover around and the extra cures you can cast.
Seriously, how can you not see that? Where is your common math sense?

I don't care how you spin it, pre 40, whm will outperform a rdm as main healer (ignoring player skill or lack there of). That statement is just nieve. Also, I can't wait to see you cringe as you eat a raise 1 at 60+ and lose 1,500+ exp instead of 500 with raise 2. (Everyone dies sometimes, don't try to lie about that)
I have played whm to 32 and rmd to 25. Only advantage is that whm get the raises a lot sooner. Thats it. RDM can perform as main healer, I have seen it.
And your sig WHM > RDM doesnt really help your cause.


That's exactly the point I'm trying to get at. Taru have to use more mp, but they regain it at the same rate as every other race. Thus, they are lesser efficient no matter how you look at it.
Remember, math sense. If you are in elementary school I can look the other way. Otherwise, please save yourself the embarrasment.


Loial, is always a pleasure to read your posts. Nice info, from a brother PLD that knows about the job.
I 100% agree on spiders, and furthermore, we Taru pld just cant lvl on spiders. We cant, period. Its not a lost cause as I see it, since Kuftal crabs can be just as good and overall I see lvling on spiders as a waste, no matter race of PLD.
I mean, your vit will shave of a tad of damage from Sickle, but it will still be a big number. The healer WILL have to heal the damage, difference is that he has more time to do it.

My non whm PT's always include a SMN, BRD or a second BLM/WHM and an RDM of course. A SMN and BRD just bring a whole lot more to a PT than a whm.
Yes, my experience tops at lvl 50 and hopefully I will get back to lvling pretty soon and see what changes need to be made to my playing style. (According to a few 65+ taru pld friends, it doesnt change that much.)

[Rones]

Seriously, how can you not see that? Where is your common math sense?
Remember, math sense. If you are in elementary school I can look the other way. Otherwise, please save yourself the embarrasment.
So you admit your argument has failed by not attacking my point, and instead making comments about my education. I will repeat it, you agreed with me already on the basic, all the races regenerate mp at the same rate, and you agreed that taru will use more mp than the other races. So if you are using more mp than other races, how you plan to catch up to them again without causing extra downtime? Since you seem to be getting confused I'll create a simple example:

hume lvl 60 pld, 240 mp
taru lvl 60 pld, 360 mp (estimate)
We will assume both have refresh on constantly for simplicities sake which means 1mp per second. Also for simplicity, we will say 2 min fight with 15 seconds pulls meaning no time for pld to rest mp between fights.

Fight 1: hume uses 140 mp
taru uses 200 mp
(you said 2 extra cure 3s per fight right? Which is 92 more mp spent)
End of fight 1: 120 mp regained total for each with refresh during 120 second fight
hume has 220/240
taru has 280/360

Fight 2: hume uses 140, taru uses 200 again
End of fight 2: Each regains 120+15 from 15 seconds between fight 1 and 2.
hume has 215/240
taru has 215/360

Fight 3: hume uses 140, taru uses 200
Each have regained 135 mp since last fight.
hume has 210/240
taru has 150/360

Fight 4: hume uses 140, taru uses 200
Each regain 135 since last fight
hume has 205/240
taru has 85/360

Fight 5: hume uses 140, taru uses 200
Each regain 135 since last fight.
hume has 200/240
taru has 20/360

The hume pld is ready for another chain and party can continue with no downtime, but the party with the taru pld is going to have a few minutes of downtime while he refills his mp since he used more mp per fight. Now that i've explained this 'simple math,' do you see how using more mp than other races will cause more downtime if you are both regaining it at the same rate? You have to regain that extra mp you spend at some point, and that is what is called downtime. ;)

Feel free to argue the difference that the amount a taru uses extra won't be that much, but that's not truly a factor as long as we follow the premises that you agreed with which was: taru use more mp per fight than others. As long as they are using more mp than the others, they are going to have more downtime. (try pluging 180 mp used by the taru each fight instead if you like, he will still have extra downtime because of it)

Also, if we assumed the premise to be false, and taru instead used equal amounts of mp as the other races, we get they have equal downtime, but you are recieving then no bonuses to compensate for your lower vit, max hp, and str. Also, if you try argue that the taru by using equal amounts of mp can do more chains before resting, I'll simply have to point out that the downtime for the hume's rest will be slightly more often but not as long, while the tarus is less often, but for a longer period of downtime. Thus they equal out since they are both have to rest up the same amount of mp whenever they eventually run out and cause downtime.
I have played whm to 32 and rmd to 25. Only advantage is that whm get the raises a lot sooner. Thats it. RDM can perform as main healer, I have seen it.
Poisona, barelement spells, and clear mind all make whm superior to rdm in every way for <40 as main healer. I agree rdm can act as main healer though, but going on stats only, whm can out perform them.
And your sig WHM > RDM doesnt really help your cause.
If you would have clicked the link, you would have seen it was a joke video. In my honest opinion rdm = whm = blm = smn. Learn to recognize jokes. Also, if you want to start a rdm > whm argument, go to the whm or rdm forums, there's lots of those there already. This is a discussion about taru plds.
Yes, my experience tops at lvl 50 and hopefully I will get back to lvling pretty soon and see what changes need to be made to my playing style.
You might want to check out whms again with cure V, 650+ hp cured with high mp efficieny and practically no hate will out perform any rdm assigned as main healer spamming the high hate spell cure IV. But that's best left to the whm and rdm forums. Also you will find quite a few rdms that dislike being main healer, and just getting a rdm is hard enough at that lvl.

Disclaimer: Any race can do any job well and a lot depends on player skill, yatta yatta yatta. I'm just trying to disprove the idea that a taru pld's mp pool gives them any kind of advantage over plds of different races, not that one race is better than the other. :rolleyes:

[evilution]

1) Taru's make great PLD dont let anyone fool you.
2) RDM can be main healers just fine. The best XP/HR group setups will never include a WHM, but will always include a BRD.
3) Taru power^^

[Rones]

A+ for making statements without offering anything to support them.
1) Taru's make great PLD dont let anyone fool you.
Like I said before, a lot does depend on player skills, but ignoring that and focusing on numbers the only thing taru have over the other races is a larger mp pool which I've shown over and over is not truly a factor. See my above post.
2) RDM can be main healers just fine. The best XP/HR group setups will never include a WHM, but will always include a BRD.
No one ever disagreed that they couldn't be main healers, but for <40 they will be outperformed by whms as I've already given many facts for that. Now if you want to argue the rdm>whm argument, please take it to the rdm or whm forums, you will find 10+ threads with over 5 pages in each of them full of flames. This is a discussion about taru pld.

3) Taru power^^
Great way to show no bias in a discussion.

[Et Cetera]

Originally posted by Rones


I will repeat it, you agreed with me already on the basic, all the races regenerate mp at the same rate, and you agreed that taru will use more mp than the other races. So if you are using more mp than other races, how you plan to catch up to them again without causing extra downtime?

You're forgetting that this works as a PT... If the Taru PLD doesn't heal himself, then the healer has to use his own mp to heal. There is no increase to downtime, as the mp usage is the same. Taru PLD's have more mp to work with, thus they can go longer without having to regen their mp. Your argument seems contradictory. You say that all races regen mp the same, and that Taru's have more mp, but somehow that makes them have more downtime? Sorry, it doesn't work like that. The difference in mp for the Taru PLD's allows them to heal themselves (with help from rdm) and keept their hp capped at, and have the same amount of downtime as, the same rate an Elv PLD could throughout the chain with a WHM. Of course the PT will need a BRD in order to have zero downtime and allow the RDM to do his full duties, as the players here have mentioned.

[Rones]

If the Taru PLD doesn't heal himself, then the healer has to use his own mp to heal. There is no increase to downtime, as the mp usage is the same. Taru PLD's have more mp to work with, thus they can go longer without having to regen their mp. Your argument seems contradictory. You say that all races regen mp the same, and that Taru's have more mp, but somehow that makes them have more downtime? Sorry, it doesn't work like that.
Yes it does work like that. If a taru uses more mp than other races to keep hate like a couple taru pld already said. They do have to use more because they take more dmg than other races thus lose hate faster and must use more mp to keep hate. He will have to regenerate more mp which means more downtime. See my above example to see it more clearly. You are going to have to regain that extra mp you spend at some point. Whether you have 300 mp or 150 mp the time spent to regain that will nearly identical. One has to rest twice as often as the other, but for half as long. The other has to rest half as often, but for twice as long.
The difference in mp for the Taru PLD's allows them to heal themselves (with help from rdm) and keept their hp capped at, and have the same amount of downtime as, the same rate an Elv PLD could throughout the chain with a WHM.
Also, the example isn't a taru pld + rdm vs elvaanpld + whm. The one with the rdm would most definitly win, but not because of the taru pld. All groups need a mp regenerator be it rdm or brd and I never said otherwise. This is a discussion about taru pld vs other race plds in the same party configuration.
If the Taru PLD doesn't heal himself, then the healer has to use his own mp to heal. There is no increase to downtime, as the mp usage is the same.
You are partially right. The mp usage would be nearly the same, but the mp regeneration rates are different. A pld will recover 12 mp per rest tick (on the rare occasions they get to rest) plus the mp regeneration from ballad or refresh. In the case of a whm, I get back 12 base + 9 from clear mind + 10 from dark staff + 2 from food for a total of 33 on first heal tick along with refresh or ballad. My mp is capped after nearly every fight, as long as your healer is good about keeping his mp up, its better to let the healer do as much of it as possible as he has a faster regeneration rate which is the key to eliminating downtime.

[BrotherRaven]

Hmm you know I'll say this:

At level 20, I felt I didn't have enough MP
At level 30, I didn't know why healers were needed.
At level 40, I didn't see how a PLD could ever lose hate.
At level 50, I wouldn't PT unless we had Refresh.
At level 55, I didn't think I needed a Life Belt
At level 60, I always needed a Life Belt
At level 65, I wouldn't PT unless we had a WHM.
At level 70, I thought I had too much MP
At level 75, I realized that all those levels and builds didn't need to be thought out so carefully.

The dynamis of this game greatly change; if you can get 4k+ exp an hour, roll with whatever config you have and adjust it to your best liking. BUT JUST keep an open mind and adapt to the changing battle dynamics as you go from 1-75; because they do change and regardless of job, a good player can see ahead and adapt.

Now, as a Taru PLD if you want to tank HNMs, you MUST go HP items. Plain and Simple. You cant hold hate if you have tons of mp and and 0 hp.

Regarding the RDM vs WHM. At one point, long ago, I would so argue that RDM was simply better than a WHM and that a WHM only provided a) convience things (protectra vs protect, teleports, etc) and b) raises. However, that entire tune changed once I hit the 60s. In the 50s and 40s, I wouldn't pt unless we had a RDM and would gladly take one rdm only. BUT once you get into the 60s, Raise II & III, Regen II & III, Stona, bar spells; the WHM makes a great comback then. It was very relaxing tanking once I was in the high 60s, no more worrying about healing, just flashing and renkeiing with group.

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by Rones


So you admit your argument has failed by not attacking my point, and instead making comments about my education. I will repeat it, you agreed with me already on the basic, all the races regenerate mp at the same rate, and you agreed that taru will use more mp than the other races. So if you are using more mp than other races, how you plan to catch up to them again without causing extra downtime? Since you seem to be getting confused I'll create a simple example:

hume lvl 60 pld, 240 mp
taru lvl 60 pld, 360 mp (estimate)
We will assume both have refresh on constantly for simplicities sake which means 1mp per second. Also for simplicity, we will say 2 min fight with 15 seconds pulls meaning no time for pld to rest mp between fights.

Fight 1: hume uses 140 mp
taru uses 200 mp
(you said 2 extra cure 3s per fight right? Which is 92 more mp spent)
End of fight 1: 120 mp regained total for each with refresh during 120 second fight
hume has 220/240
taru has 280/360

Fight 2: hume uses 140, taru uses 200 again
End of fight 2: Each regains 120+15 from 15 seconds between fight 1 and 2.
hume has 215/240
taru has 215/360

Fight 3: hume uses 140, taru uses 200
Each have regained 135 mp since last fight.
hume has 210/240
taru has 150/360

Fight 4: hume uses 140, taru uses 200
Each regain 135 since last fight
hume has 205/240
taru has 85/360

Fight 5: hume uses 140, taru uses 200
Each regain 135 since last fight.
hume has 200/240
taru has 20/360

The hume pld is ready for another chain and party can continue with no downtime, but the party with the taru pld is going to have a few minutes of downtime while he refills his mp since he used more mp per fight. Now that i've explained this 'simple math,' do you see how using more mp than other races will cause more downtime if you are both regaining it at the same rate? You have to regain that extra mp you spend at some point, and that is what is called downtime. ;)

Feel free to argue the difference that the amount a taru uses extra won't be that much, but that's not truly a factor as long as we follow the premises that you agreed with which was: taru use more mp per fight than others. As long as they are using more mp than the others, they are going to have more downtime. (try pluging 180 mp used by the taru each fight instead if you like, he will still have extra downtime because of it)

Also, if we assumed the premise to be false, and taru instead used equal amounts of mp as the other races, we get they have equal downtime, but you are recieving then no bonuses to compensate for your lower vit, max hp, and str. Also, if you try argue that the taru by using equal amounts of mp can do more chains before resting, I'll simply have to point out that the downtime for the hume's rest will be slightly more often but not as long, while the tarus is less often, but for a longer period of downtime. Thus they equal out since they are both have to rest up the same amount of mp whenever they eventually run out and cause downtime.

Poisona, barelement spells, and clear mind all make whm superior to rdm in every way for <40 as main healer. I agree rdm can act as main healer though, but going on stats only, whm can out perform them.

If you would have clicked the link, you would have seen it was a joke video. In my honest opinion rdm = whm = blm = smn. Learn to recognize jokes. Also, if you want to start a rdm > whm argument, go to the whm or rdm forums, there's lots of those there already. This is a discussion about taru plds.

You might want to check out whms again with cure V, 650+ hp cured with high mp efficieny and practically no hate will out perform any rdm assigned as main healer spamming the high hate spell cure IV. But that's best left to the whm and rdm forums. Also you will find quite a few rdms that dislike being main healer, and just getting a rdm is hard enough at that lvl.

Disclaimer: Any race can do any job well and a lot depends on player skill, yatta yatta yatta. I'm just trying to disprove the idea that a taru pld's mp pool gives them any kind of advantage over plds of different races, not that one race is better than the other. :rolleyes:

Rones, have you ever even partied with a Taru PLD? Oh wait, probably not, seeing as you'd be a waste in the party. As far as causing downtime goes...the only time my friends Hamasaki, or Locjai (lv65 and lv69 taru pld's respectively) are out of mp are at the end of chains...when all the mages are out of mp and have to rest anyways. If you seriously think a taru pld resting back 400 mp is going to cause a huge amount of downtime when mages have 900+ mp to gain back...you're just blind or stupid.

Bottom line is this - a taru pld reduces downtime, not causes it. Why? The only time he has to med more than any other paladin is at the end of chains, when ALL casters are medding. So yes, he's resting more than a non-taru pld...but he's not resting longer than the whm, rdm, blm, or smn, so WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES THAT MAKE!?

The ONLY time a paladin imo causes any downtime is when he doesn't have enough MP for a pull. Now you're little wonderful math example is nice on paper and all, but did you calculate the effect of his curing an additional 360 hp into the equation? Did you evaluate the effect it would have on reducing 92 mp that another mage would've had to cure? Did you calculate the time reduction of casters CASTING said spells? Did you calculate the fact that not only could you add an extra damage dealer to the party, but the damage dealers would have to hold back less since the taru pally healed himself more? Doing stupid math is fun and all, but as anyone who's tried to figure out a formula for something in FFXI can tell you, the game isn't that simple. Random elements abound, and I don't see how you could possibly say that having more mp = bad. Maybe if it got to the point where a taru pld had more MP than the mages...like, say you had a taru pld and a galka whm. But honestly, taru pld's and galka whm's are rare enough to never be put in a party together. There are 2-3 jp galkan whm's on midgardsormr, and 1 NA blm on midgardsormr that I've seen in AF...and something like 10-15 taru plds past AF. Not a big deal.

You can ramble on all you want to about how Taru pld's cause downtime. You can ramble all you want to about how Taru's have less vit, less hp, ect. But watch as I do some simple math here:

My friend hamasaki at lv61 had a base VIT of 60. My friend Drew (hume pld) at lv61 had a base VIT of 64. Hamasaki wore +28 VIT in gear. Drew wore +16. Whoops, the taru has 8 more vit than the hume. Hamasaki had 1,100 hp. Drew had 1,200. Hamasaki had 390ish mp (forget exact value). Drew had something in the mid 200's. That's a Cure II worth of difference in HP vs almost twice as much MP. And the hume ends up with less vit.


Any race can play Paladin, it just requires different play styles. A taru needs to not play with a whm (or at least most whm's I've played with, who tend to use things like Cure V when they're really not needed at all and don't let the paladin actually get full cures in). A galka needs to play around with equipment switches. A hume gets to be lazy and do whatever he wants. A mithra needs to have very good gear. An elvaan can do what he pleases, although the mp issue could be made the same as with a galka.


About galkan MP - at lv64, Rugal, with 2 astral rings, had ~175 mp (not sure if he was wearing his RSE) when we did Avatars together. Did that mean anything? Not as long as he had refresh. The difference was, if he lost ballad/refresh, he knew it, and he knew it fast. He depended on the mp regen to be able to have the endurance to last the fight and keep hate. A taru pld, on the other hand, would have plenty of MP to fall back on to keep hate. A galkan is the only paladin I've seen so far that stands a chance to live through an unresisted 2 hour in the low to mid 60's, however. Most times though...they don't make it either ; ;

[AtraposBLM]

didn't even see the double post ; ;

[Rones]

That's a really big double post. :sweat:
Rones, have you ever even partied with a Taru PLD?
Yes, I did 3 lvls in crawlers nest with 2 taru plds. Rest of my time has been with elvaan, hume, and mithra plds.
If you seriously think a taru pld resting back 400 mp is going to cause a huge amount of downtime when mages have 900+ mp to gain back...you're just blind or stupid.
2 things...
1st, in your example the pld would take longer to regen 400 than a whm would take to regen 900. Like in my above description, I get 33 per tick, pld gets 12.
2nd, Since when do your mages ever run out of mp? With Ballad and careful resting, I'm at full mp (or 100 short) after every fight. My parties blm is no different he can cast up to the plds hate limit and keep his mp near max like mine as welll. So, if the pld runs out of mp, its going to be downtime spent where he is the only one needing to rest.

If your mages aren't very good and are causing downtime, then I agree the taru in that case wouldn't be causing extra downtime, but as has been the case in all my parties 51+ (Dark Staff), the pld is the only to ever cause downtime.
My friend hamasaki at lv61 had a base VIT of 60. My friend Drew (hume pld) at lv61 had a base VIT of 64. Hamasaki wore +28 VIT in gear. Drew wore +16. Whoops, the taru has 8 more vit than the hume. Hamasaki had 1,100 hp. Drew had 1,200. Hamasaki had 390ish mp (forget exact value). Drew had something in the mid 200's. That's a Cure II worth of difference in HP vs almost twice as much MP. And the hume ends up with less vit.
You're changing the subject. Everyone knows top knotch equipment can override racial weakness, a galka blm with the best equipment will beat a taru blm wiht crap equipment, that's never been a mystery.

[Kurai-Tenshii]

Originally posted by Rones
That's a really big double post. :sweat:

Yes, I did 3 lvls in crawlers nest with 2 taru plds. Rest of my time has been with elvaan, hume, and mithra plds.

2 things...
1st, in your example the pld would take longer to regen 400 than a whm would take to regen 900. Like in my above description, I get 33 per tick, pld gets 12.
2nd, Since when do your mages ever run out of mp? With Ballad and careful resting, I'm at full mp (or 100 short) after every fight. My parties blm is no different he can cast up to the plds hate limit and keep his mp near max like mine as welll. So, if the pld runs out of mp, its going to be downtime spent where he is the only one needing to rest.

You're changing the subject. Everyone knows top knotch equipment can override racial weakness, a galka blm with the best equipment will beat a taru blm wiht crap equipment, that's never been a mystery.

Did it ever occur that maybe a good brd can actually get ballad and ballad II on the PLD, plus refresh? Did it ever occur to you that the taru's MP can be used to cure OTHER people than just the taru itself with ballad I, ballad II, and refresh?

Or did you kind of forget that maybe not every server has an over abundance of BRDs that can be dished out at the disposal of any party?

And he was never changing the subject about the VIT thing, it has to do with gear available to each race, not just overall, the equip doesnt cost millions and its rather easy to get.

Taru RSE belt = an extra +3 vit over a hume and other races, since most PLD wont be using a warrior belt +1 past level 50

Taru RSE gloves = another +2 vit over hume and other races.

Now unfortunately, the hume probably wasn't using a gluttony maybe or maybe lacked vit rings, but regardless.

If a Taru and a Hume both used Gluttony, 2 +3 vit rings, medieval collar, and a Happy Egg at level 62, the taru would STILL have more vit for obvious shown reasons.

Rack up another +1 vit for the taru at 70, since the RSE belt then gives +4 vit vs the level 50 one.

Hamasaki would have had over 400 MP though at level 60 if he's using Pidgeon earrings, about 385 or so if he used physical earrings, which is still a lot.

Unfortunately since taru's have such easy access to awesome gear with vit bonuses that can make any pld drool and if available to all races i'm sure it would be used by them, but because they cant, they NEED to use that top quality gear to stay ahead of us, elvaan included, if they arent then we basically match and maybe pass them if they arent.

[Rones]

Did it ever occur that maybe a good brd can actually get ballad and ballad II on the PLD, plus refresh? Did it ever occur to you that the taru's MP can be used to cure OTHER people than just the taru itself with ballad I, ballad II, and refresh?

Or did you kind of forget that maybe not every server has an over abundance of BRDs that can be dished out at the disposal of any party?

You are kind of conterdictiing yourself here and I'm not to sure of your exact point. Yes, having a brd+rdm both refreshing the pld is ideal, but for most people this is a rare occurence given the overall rarity of brds and the difficulty in just getting a rdm at times. If you are able to get both, more power to you, but having a large mp tank will be even less important in that situation

I don't remember stating the pld couldn't heal anyone else except himself, but on the same note if he's doing his job he shouldn't have to.

And he was never changing the subject about the VIT thing, it has to do with gear available to each race, not just overall, the equip doesnt cost millions and its rather easy to get.
LVL 30 RSE gear isn't going to cut it for a pld who needs the best def gear he can get early on. As well, at upper lvls a pld is going to be wearing full AF with its +enimity, so there goes your gloves. +3 vit from a high lvl rse belt is easy to match, lvl 15 warriors belt+1 is +3 vit for 30k I think and avaiable to all races. Don't forget the other races get there rse belts and hume/mithra both have +vit on them if I remember right. There is close to no gear specific to taru that a pld could wear to get ahead of the other races. And going from the basic taru stats to comparing a taru with the best equipment to a hume with crap equipment is changing the subject. Comparing taru pld vs other race plds in the same party build with the same lvl of gear is what I'm trying to point focus on.

Also, even if taru was able to get 1-3 more vit over the other races in gear, they will still be very far behind.
lvl 59 Galka pld/war has 74 vit 1,249 hp
lvl59 Elvaan pld/war has 69 vit 1,130 hp
lvl 59 taru pld/war has 60 vit 863 hp

[Biterman]

Rones will never get it, period. Yeah, nice little math exercise you did there, congrats. Unfortunately, thats not how things work. Guess you can only see it if you play a Taru pld or arent biased and see how a taru pld operates.

Taru PLD never adds to downtime (a player with skill of course), and we can even help reduce downtime. We also have access to a Dark staff you know (at a price, our TP, but we do).

Btw, what are you using to base those lvl 59 stats? That online stat calculator? Last I heard that thing is bogus. Oh and btw, dont make it sound like we taru pld get hit for twice as much. At my lvl I hardly take more damage than a galka or elvaan pld. The only real noticeable difference is when we get a critical, and even then, its not like we are taking twice the damage.

[Rones]

Until you offer something to support your side or disprove what I've stated I'm not going to bother responding further. Perhaps you could try explaining the flaw in my example.

[Biterman]

The flaw? You are whm guessing how a skilled PLD uses his mana.
You dont consider PLD using a dark staff, resting between battles et al.

[Kurai-Tenshii]

OK, Let me point this out for you on the RSE issue.

Steppe Belt: Level 50 Requirement - 3 def +40 HP +2 str +3 vit -5 int. TARU SPECIFIC

Creek Gloves Male and Female: Level 62 Requirement - 9 def +65 HP +6 str +2 vit -3 agi

these DO cut it for a PLD at later levels.

And don't forget to factor all of the +HP gear I have into your equation on taru that other races probably wouldn't use. And seriously, stop with the base stats, no one cares, those honestly don't matter.

My stats by level 60 (these are not full vit bonus stats, I don't use full vit+ equip).

1,087 HP 385 MP 60+24 vit, with food during battle when it actually matters 60+29 vit, one short of 90, arent I?

Level 62, when I can wear Creek Gloves.

1,181 HP 424 MP 63+26 vit, with food during battle, again when this actually matters 63+31 vit. Look, I easilly broke 90 already.


Now then, looking back at your post to see how much an elvaan PLD's HP would be by 59, let's assume the elvaan PLD gains 20 HP per level, 3 levels later, they have 1,190 HP, then add the +20 HP bonus from the AF body piece, so 1,210 HP, right? How exactly is a 30 HP more bonus than us that much better? By that point both an elvaan and a taru would have broken 90 vit, and the few points past that wouldn't really make much more of a difference.

Sacrifice the +HP gear now, which I'll probably sacrifice some of it at a certain point for more VIT.

Give me a medieval collar and 2 mercenary earrings at 62. -20 HP from the pidgeon, -25 HP from the physical (+25 MP now too). and -15 HP from iron musketeer gorget. then give me another +5 vit. So -60 HP for an extra +5 vit basically, and you get these stats.

1,121 HP 449 MP and 63+31 vit BEFORE food, with food 63+36 vit, almost 100 vit already at level 62 for a taru. The difference between a taru and an elvaan at this point is LESS than the difference in both HP and VIT between a galka and an elvaan.

[AtraposBLM]

Rones is basing his arguement against Taru pld's on when he leveled in crawlers nest at (I'm assuming) 35-40:rolleyes:. Thats complete trash, first of all. Anyone who's played with a low-level non-taru blm knows how much they suck (unless they've got a different job to pay for astrals, food, and top-notch gear). It's only until later in the game that the races do indeed balance out a bit. A paladin isn't really a paladin until full AF anyways.

Rones - the difference in damage taken between a taru pld with top notch gear and a galka with top notch gear will be less than 10 points. The difference in HP, with gear and such, will be 100-150. So, assuming the taru casts a single extra cure III (44 mp), the difference in HP has already been made up. The difference in MP used is negligble, and keep in mind, this means that the taru will probably have to use flash a time or two less (25-50 mp less used), and probably end up curing himself less, as the mob will die faster due to the extra hate that the taru can get on himself, allowing the damage dealers to do more damage in a shorter amount of time.

A whm at lv65 will have ~1,000 mp with gear (taru). A taru pld at lv65 will have ~400 mp. Assuming that only the whm uses a dark staff, and they use a witchkabob, the whm will regain mp approximately 3 times faster. That means if both the pld and the whm start resting at the same time, you'll have to wait about 15 seconds longer for the taru pld to top off than for the whm to top off. That's about how long it takes for something to be pulled. Or, you could pull anyways, as the taru will have plenty of MP at all times. The difference is, a taru pld will have more MP left over for chain 4 and 5 than a non-taru would have, which allows you to actually ATTEMPT chain 4 and 5 more consistently. A lot of times, I find my chain 5 attempts are doomed due to the fact that the pld doesn't have enough mp for more than a flash and a cure, which isn't enough hate to last a fight, especially a fight where all the DD's have to go nuts to kill the mob in time. A taru pld would.

The bottom line is that taru pld's are much better without whm's. They allow rdm's time to do things other than cure them, meaning the rdm doesn't have to worry that if he doesn't cure for a minute the pld is going to die because he doesn't have enough MP to cure himself.

[Synbios]

Originally posted by AtraposBLM

A whm at lv65 will have ~1,000 mp with gear (taru). A taru pld at lv65 will have ~400 mp. I don't even have 900 MP at level 70. D;/ My 75 WHM friend managed to break 1k MP onry with Healing Staff. orz

Anyway, Physical Earrings are good for PLDs, but the best would be Bloodbead/Pigeon+1/Cassie. Physicals are a must for low level Tarudins until they get access to Cure III/Pigeon/Bloodbeads. + Agi earrings are for retards cause PLD has shitty Agi and Evasion to begin with, no, you won't notice the extra dodges, skilling your parry and shield to cap will be more significant. There are hardly any other earrings worth mentioning, maybe the level 30 Mercenary Earrings, +2 Vit onry works when you're /WAR, but having 25 more HP would be better. :D

I'm in a 6 Taru set party, we didn't have much problems chaining, pre Ballad/Refresh days, the PLD and the mages just buy their own pineapples and make juice, after getting Refresh, I onry stop pulling when someone has to go AFK or we're fighting mobs that are not meant for us yet, like level 45s levelling in level 47s spots, cause the melee (me) is incompetent. D;/ Never because the PLD's empty while the other mages are full (except when my PLD was a noob and he was learning how to hold hate).

Taru PLDs own, I doubt any other PLDs (w/o a THF) can keep hate off a pre-sidewinder and trigger happy RNG (I'll check on this again after my set hits 55). Don't know much about HNMs yet cause I'm not in any, but when King Behemoth uses Meteor, I don't think any PLD can take it. Anything that uses one shot kills are equally dangerous to other PLDs, maybe it will kill a Taru in one hit and leave a Galka in red, and before the healer gets in time to throw in a heavy cure, he gets crit and dies. D; One shot kill mobs are avoidable from 1 to 75, why bother touching them in the first place?

[Loial]

Biterman:
I 100% agree on spiders, and furthermore, we Taru pld just cant lvl on spiders. We cant, period. Its not a lost cause as I see it, since Kuftal crabs can be just as good and overall I see lvling on spiders as a waste, no matter race of PLD.
I completely agree. I am just showing the concern of the extra breathing room HP-wise.

And that breakdown by Kurai of Taru PLD VIT was rather interesting to see. I always enjoyed examining Hume PLD vs Galka PLD's VIT and MP because Humes make such a big deal out of it. But, I never realized how much VIT that the tarus get :biggrin:

I for one rather look forward to swapping out my RSE2 gloves for my AF gloves here and there for that extra MP use when needed.

Hell, right now @ 61, I'm very very rarely coming close to using more than 50% of my MP...unless I toss the RNG a Cure IV when needed.

So far, BrotherRaven's breakdown of what Elvaan (and Galka) PLD think from 20-60 has been RIGHT on the money. Now, I'm a bit concerned about:
At level 65, I wouldn't PT unless we had a WHM.

[Artonis]

Look I don't know who said it, and I don't care cause you all should have stopped fighting then and there.

Someone said something about "if you're making 4k an hour then roll with whatever config you have"

jebus what more do you people want? perfection?

Quit arguing and remember the game is supposed to be fun.

I wouldn't delete my galka and recreate a taru pld if someone made me. Nothing against them, I like my galka, hinderences and all.

It's "fun" anyone remember that word?

Have fun.

[Rones]

Rones is basing his arguement against Taru pld's on when he leveled in crawlers nest at (I'm assuming) 35-40. Thats complete trash, first of all.
Hurray, another personal attack on my creditability instead of my argument or statements. :rolleyes:
So, assuming the taru casts a single extra cure III (44 mp), the difference in HP has already been made up. The difference in MP used is negligble, and keep in mind, this means that the taru will probably have to use flash a time or two less (25-50 mp less used), and probably end up curing himself less, as the mob will die faster due to the extra hate that the taru can get on himself, allowing the damage dealers to do more damage in a shorter amount of time.
Here you counterdict yourself. First you say the taru will throw extra cures to compensate for his lower hp, and then you say he will have to use less mp to hold hate. Casting a cure instead of flash is nothing unique to taru plds. All races of plds can spam spells at the same rate to hold hate, but if a taru spams extra compared to the other races, he will have more downtime. Like I've stated before, using more mp = more downtime. Perhaps spamming a lot of hate grabbing spells will allow your damage dealers to kill it faster and create a shorter fight resulting in less mp use net, any race can do that. That's part of the art of tanking as pld.
A whm at lv65 will have ~1,000 mp with gear (taru).
I barely have 620 at lvl 60 with very good gear + full af as whm. :sweat: Hands down, taru rule the mage world, I will always give to that point.
Assuming that only the whm uses a dark staff, and they use a witchkabob, the whm will regain mp approximately 3 times faster. That means if both the pld and the whm start resting at the same time, you'll have to wait about 15 seconds longer for the taru pld to top off than for the whm to top off
Again, you are going off the assumption your healer (be it whm, smn, rdm, or blm) is using up all their mp to reach chain 5. For your large percentage of time spent exping on crabs and low dmg mobs, your healer will have lots of time to rest between cures and can keep their mp up near max with just a brd or rdm. If you are the type that likes to abuse rdms and put them in charge of enfeebling, refreshing 4+ members, and acting as main healer, then what you say is correct and there will be plenty of downtime for the pld to regain his mp from resting while the overworked rdm tries to keep up (party could probably use another mage class to help with that downtime). In the case of most of my exping, there is no downtime between chain 5 and the start of the next, unless the pld uses the mp to fast and runs out.
Steppe Belt: Level 50 Requirement - 3 def +40 HP +2 str +3 vit -5 int. TARU SPECIFIC
At lvl 60 the hp difference isn't too signifigant anymore, and the other races have very similiar belts, I know mithra belt off hand is +3 str and +2vit with some other bonuses, so that's not exactly a signifigant advantage for taru over other races.
Creek Gloves Male and Female: Level 62 Requirement - 9 def +65 HP +6 str +2 vit -3 agi
This means you are sacrificing the +2enimity from your af gloves which means more mp having to be spent to hold hate.
Now then, looking back at your post to see how much an elvaan PLD's HP would be by 59, let's assume the elvaan PLD gains 20 HP per level, 3 levels later, they have 1,190 HP, then add the +20 HP bonus from the AF body piece, so 1,210 HP, right? How exactly is a 30 HP more bonus than us that much better
This means you are spending a lot of equipment slots just to match the elvaan pld who could spend those slots on other equipment setting him beyond the taru.

All your equipment (or mirror images) that a taru pld can use, are also avaiable to the other races. So while you have 60+34 vit, that galka has 74+34 vit and could probably sacrifice some of that +vit equipment for some +str to help him pull more hate. But that is getting more into the finer balances of being a pld that I will admit I don't have enough experience.

The flaw? You are whm guessing how a skilled PLD uses his mana.
I think you are forgetting something, as a whm I do nothing but stare at the pld 99% of my time spent exping. I see every action they take, watch all the spells they cast, and see everything they do to hold hate. As a healer I do nothing but watch the pld and throw cures on them for hours on end. I think I have some concept of how a pld uses his mp.
You dont consider PLD using a dark staff, resting between battles et al.
A dark staff is avaialable to all races, so this is not going to get taru an advantage that would put them closer to matching the other races, that's why I left it out of my example. Also, in a good party there will not be enough time between battles for him to rest up a fill mp tick, otherwise your puller is going to slow and hurting your chances at chain 4 and 5.
Taru PLDs own, I doubt any other PLDs (w/o a THF) can keep hate off a pre-sidewinder and trigger happy RNG (I'll check on this again after my set hits 55).
Any race can spam hate grabbing spells as fast as a taru. But if the taru goes spamming more hate grabbing spells than other races, he will cause more downtime than other races.
Hell, right now @ 61, I'm very very rarely coming close to using more than 50% of my MP...unless I toss the RNG a Cure IV when needed.
Here it is from a galka pld. He does it with less than half a taru mp tank, showing its not how much you have that's important, but how fast you refill and how little (or much) you have to use it.

[Biterman]

Originally posted by Rones
Also, in a good party there will not be enough time between battles for him to rest up a fill mp tick, otherwise your puller is going to slow and hurting your chances at chain 4 and 5.

Correction, a good party chance to get chain #4 or 5 is not based on how quick you pull next mob, but how quick you kill each mob.
That statement of yours just shows me how much you know about downtime and chain dynamics. I wont waste more time with you, I rest my case.

[Rones]

How fast you kill it is a given known by anyone 25+. But if you spend 20-30 seconds on getting the next pull, you are hurting your chance of killing it fast enough. Optimally, your puller will leave in the last few seconds and pull the chain 5 while your party does the final blows to the one your are fighting. The more time your damage dealers have to hurt the chain 5, the better the chance of getting it.
I rest my case.

[LawDawg]

Here are the only important things to remember:

1. Max MP does not matter post 55 (except in emergency situations... but please do not use that to justify your argument)
2. More damage taken -> More MP used, More MP used -> more downtime
3. If you can make a lot of xp/hr, then good for you ... it obviously has nothing to do with your race (really, all races can make good xp, doesn't matter which race... sheesh).
4. Finally, taking into account everything stated above, if you look PURELY at the numbers, a Taru PLD is worse off then other races ... thats just a fact, live with it... Take a PLD from each race, give them the equipment of their choice, and the Taru PLD will probably be in the worse shape (RELATIVELY SPEAKING)

btw, stop using ancedotal evidence

[LawDawg]

I would just like to point out one thing... I have never had an MP problem before (as long as the RDM/BRD was skilled).

Look, if you take a PT with a Taru PLD, that is making 4-5k xp/hr, and replace the PLD with an Elf PLD, guess what? If the Taru and Elf both have the best equipment available, THE PARTY WILL STILL MAKE 4-5k xp/hr!! WOW!! OMG WHAT A FREAKING CONCEPT.

BUT, heres the kicker, playing a taru PLD well takes more skill than playing a Elf PLD well... why is that? Tarus are NATURALLY less equiped to be PLDs, thus, they have to work harder than other, say Elf, PLDs. Just like how NIN have a NATURALLY gimped ability to keep hate (compared to PLD) doesn't mean they can't tank effectively, it just takes more skill.

HERES THE BOTTOM LINE. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT FREAKING RACE YOU ARE. IF YOU ARE A GOOD PLAYER, YOU CAN BE ANY RACE, AND YOULL PLAY WELL!! But in the end, I would MUCH rather have a Elf or Galka PLD tanking HNM or Dynamis than a Taru PLD.... HNM is not like regular XP mobs...

[TheBruce]

I actually think now that a taru pld would be best for exp.

1. Don't neccasarily need a whm, this allows you to have double regen in a party and do some serious magic bursts with rdm and blm.

2. The extra mana affords more rest time by a smart pld + whm team. Since a good skill chain involving rdm + blm will outright kill monsters at later levels a good whm could just med through the whole fight and let the taru cure himself.

3. Taru's vit isn't that much different than other races, its really not that big of a difference between galka and taru. Small differences in vit usually don't make that big of a difference in damage mitigation, its when your talking in +10 increments is when you really start to see a difference.

4. The only huge problem taru pld's have is hp. There is no way around it, however in exp parties hp really isn't that neccassary. Anyone who levels on spiders or scorpions or other high ws damage mobs is just asking for bad exp anyways. Obviously on hnm's a taru pld would have an incredibly rough time, but even that can be gotten around with a few tricks of the trade.

Anyways, two :thumbsup: :thumbsup: for taru pld's and galka blm.

[Biterman]

Whoa...one of the best PLD around the forum praises tawu pld for xp PT's...
No those arent tears, I just have something in my eye.

So go ahead and say what you want Rones, I'll just keep reading TheBruce's post over and over.:biggrin:

[TheBruce]

Shit, I remember when I was 73-74 and was still in exp mode for gear I was talking to one of my taru pld friend about his vit compared to mine.

I think at the time he was 65 and had more vit than me at 73 lol. I do think at the lower levels, 50's/60's having higher vit/defense helps a lot. But around 73 I started subbing out some of these items for exp purposes because the exp monsters started becoming far easier and actually hit for less than when I was level 60.

[Babytank]

Haha Bruce^^ I remember that conversation. U were seeking and I was sleepy and I was asking ur opinion on Gluttony versus Espadon. Anyways, im using Espadon now. Had to say bye bye to my Gluttony. Its those damn lvl 3 renkeis man. Gluttony's delay was just not cutting it for me lol. I need TP!!! Rest? Wat rest? Im keeping my TP! Chain #5, here I go^^

[TheBruce]

Yah it was King Hamasaki hehe. The original Tarutaru Paladin of Midgard. Man you gotta get Pulma to keep playing he almost quit Paladin last week.

[LawDawg]

well.... i don't understand why a Taru PLD doesn't need a WHM while other races do? I have never NEEDED a WHM in my PT. The only reason that I have used one more often is the fact that its easier to port to Teriggan/Kuftal. Fighting in Boyohda, I usually use 2 BLM, RDM, BRD, PLD, RNG (or MNK) and I exp damn good.

[evilution]

Look, if you take a PT with a Taru PLD, that is making 4-5k xp/hr, and replace the PLD with an Elf PLD, guess what? If the Taru and Elf both have the best equipment available, THE PARTY WILL STILL MAKE 4-5k xp/hr!! WOW!! OMG WHAT A FREAKING CONCEPT.

Then boot the PLD, get a real tank (ninja), and get even better xp.

:spin:

[Frozen Flame]

I laugh at most forums, because everyone has a taru PLD topic and one moron thinks he is smart because he is down on taru pld. its a matter of the players skill not the race, honestly the reason I first went drk was because of a dumb*** at one forum that told me taru pld is so bad that I would not get one paarty and as afraid to do the job I loved with my favorite race, so I tried it and guess what? I buy some good fodd and half +1 gear and have bonuses that give me same HP as humes and more VIT then an average equipped galka. At level 16 I have 31 VIT 279 HP and 110 MP, also 97 Defense, with protect 107, not to shaby for a TARU.

now all you cookie cutting dumb***es that think they are smart by saying taru suck and they dont have any real proof GO AND PT WITH A GOOD TARU PLD NOT A GIMPED ONE AND THEN MAKE AN OPINON. I was in a pt with an elvaan pld and I was main tank why? my skill and gear. point proven

[Rones]

Congratulations on failing to meet any of the requirements of a logical argument.

First you claim taru pld are better by comparing a taru pld with best equip to a non-taru with poor equip. The equip works the same on all races. If you had put that same equip on a galka or elvaan pld you would have even more hp+vit than a taru pld.

Second, you are saying player skill can make a taru pld better than a non-taru pld. Player skill works the same regardless of the race, since it doesn't favor any specific race, it isn't a factor.

they dont have any real proof
Check your own post, you offer nothing to support your argument. Real proof is offered for each side throughout most of this thread if you had taken the time to read more than 2-3 of the posts. Why not try discussing the validity of some of the proof offered against taru pld or try actually coming up with some to support taru pld.

I was in a pt with an elvaan pld and I was main tank why? my skill and gear. point proven
2 pld in one party? That's just foolish, but you don't have enough experience in the game yet to realize that I suppose. Skill and gear function independent from race, so those don't prove any point about taru pld.

[Loial]

One thing to keep in mind Flame, is that the first "pioneers" of the Taru PLD and Galka WHM did have a hard time finding parties. People were skeptical of them and it took some highly skilled players with excellent gear to prove that those race/job combos were indeed effective.

With the right gear, anyone can pull off any job. When I first started playing, I was all caught up in the stats from each race and how it is so "fake" that Tarus get ridiculous MP and that Elvaan have such poor Dex, etc etc. But after gaining much experience in the game, I've learned that the game is indeed balanced.

Just like Taru PLD can slap on a lot of VIT and HP+ gear, the Galka mage can slap on a lot of MP+ gear to make up for his weakness.

In the end, it really is simply that player skill > gear. But gear also helps.

Rones is all bent out of shape because he's being made out to look like an ass. Rones raised some valid arguments and they've been ignored mostly.

I still stand by Rones' statement regarding MP regen. But there are two things you have to think about.... The Bruce mentioned that the Taru PLD can give the WHM a "rest" for one battle (assuming the mob difficulty isn't too great) by expending his own MP. This is a big deal, and shouldn't be overlooked.

It is known that for each "tick" that you sit, you regen even more MP than the last tick. So, a Galka PLD would be taxing the abilities of the WHM to extend his/her sitting as long as possible to squeeze out all that extra MP because the Galka PLD will need those heals coming from the WHM.

Now, the Taru PLD is going to be able give the WHM a breather while he cures himself up. So the WHM could probably have 0 MP and if the WHM is then allowed to rest the entire duration of a battle, I would think that they would recover 70%+ MP by then. But, we can't forget that now you got a Taru PLD with low MP. Let's not get into exactly how much MP is spent, because we could argue forever. But if we are talking IT mobs, and the only heals are from the PLD, the Taru is going to have to regen that MP.

At this point, it comes down to the Taru PLD's ability to understand how much hate he/she has in the upcoming battles. They have to regen that MP and are only going to get 1 MP/tick, no matter how you slice it. I'm not saying the Taru is in trouble here... just saying that to recover that MP, the Taru is forced to use hate tools that consume no MP. So, they'd have to have the foresight to save Bash, Sentinel, Rampart, etc for these cases. In 60+ parties, those abilities are not enough to hold hate either. So, then you are looking at using the MP (that you are trying to regen) to hold hate. See a problem? At some point, the Taru PLD will need to sit to recover his/her most important resource. If you always have enough MP... then your puller isn't doing his job. To rake in the exp, the PT needs to be tested to the limits. If you have time to rest in between battles, then your PT isn't performing to its limit.

It really all comes down to the PT makeup. I usually group with RNG THF THF RDM SMN PLD. There is 0 downtime and the SMN can sit for a long time before having to cure. Stoneskin+Blink(sometimes) + Flash + all that parry/shield blocking allows the SMN to sit and get that extra +10MP per tick from the Dark Staff. In that case, my major "flaw" of having low MP is solved because I don't cause the mages to ever run low on MP from needing cures coming from them, rather than a Taru PLD that can "fill in" for a battle to let the WHM rest up.

I was in a pt with an elvaan pld and I was main tank why? my skill and gear. point proven
Ok... now that is just poor. Not only are you taking a situation of having 2 PLDs in a group which is just wrong... but that forces me to think that you are in a group pre-30 where PLD dmg isn't as poor as it is later on (so you could get by with 2 PLD). One circumstance doesn't prove anything. Silly Taru! You could replace your "proof" with any job/race combination and just neglect to say that the other job/race was naked, and that would prove whatever point you wanted.

[Artonis]

Loial, I sent you a PM did you ever get it?

I've been in PT's with two PLD, myself and Taru, so it was a prime example to show the extremes.

We had an Elvaan WHM as well and eventually the taru PLD relinquished tanking to me, as tanking the monsters in garliage were hitting him so hard, he and the whm were having heart attacks trying to keep him alive.

We moved on to another area for exp, same party. Taru tanked again, and did a great job. :thumbsup: 5k exp/hr

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Rones, you're not having fun anymore. You're striving for perfection.
You make me think you're the kind of guy that wants a specific party right down to race and gear, or your won't join it.

Just relax, from another galka PLD, I can admit Taru make fine PLD.

Here's a shocker, my least favourite PLD is Elvaan ;)

[Rones]

Rones is all bent out of shape because he's being made out to look like an ass. Rones raised some valid arguments and they've been ignored mostly.
I think you hit it on the head. This thread has made me some what sore and come across a little more harsh than I was ever intending. I was only wanting a discussion of numbers and reasons for the different races vs taru, but no one seemed particularly interested in point/counter-point style discussions I'm use to. :(

[Biterman]

*reads TheBruce's posts*
*checks Hamasaki profile*
Weeeeeeeeee!
*goes back to having fun as taru pld*

[Deodorant]

That's because you can't just throw numbers around and make a generalized sweeping statement about the matter. Assuming equal player skill and equipment level, taru PLDs may or may not be better depending on the skill of the PT members. And even assuming equal party member skill, again, taru PLDs may or may not be better depending on that particular party configuration. Example:

In a party where the PLD is in skillchain, he typically can't rest (or rest much at all), depending solely on ballads/refresh for mp regen. Now, depending on what the MP usage is for the PLD that particular party:

- If PLD MP usage is equal to MP regen rate, then the extra MP that the Taru has doesn't give any advantage over other races.
- If PLD MP usage is greater than MP regen rate, then things become more interesting. The PLD will run out of MP eventually; a Taru can go on longer before his mp runs out, thus possibly allowing for longer chains. And before you say 'but taru also causes more downtime because he has to regen more mp,' that is only partially true, because you regain more mp/sec the longer you sit (i.e., a taru takes less time regenning 0-300mp once, than it takes any other pld to regen 0-150mp twice).

Of course, that's only one isolated example; I could easily give countless examples where taru PLDs are better, and you could easily do the same and 'prove' that tarus are worse, and neither of us would be totally right or wrong. There are just too many dynamics, too many variables with regards to this particular subject too make a definite 'taru sux' or 'taru rox' conclusion.

In contrast, it would be extremely hard to argue against the commonly-accepted ideas that tarus make best BLMs, and galkas make the worst, because this holds true 95% of the time regardless of all other factors.

[Vinen]

I feel like leveling Paladin as my next job now e.e;

[Loial]

I was only wanting a discussion of numbers and reasons for the different races vs taru, but no one seemed particularly interested in point/counter-point style discussions I'm use to
I like those kind of discussions myself. But we all need to see things from not only our point of view, but also others :)

I'd venture to say that in some PT configuration, Taru PLD would function best. In others, maybe Elvaan would function best, or Galka...whatever. Taru PLD is just a different facet of the game that is different from most others. To succeed in a given situation, the Taru PLD and his main healer have to both be highly skilled to make it efficient.

If the game were simple enough to declare one race to be the absolute best in EVERY situation no matter what the PT configuration, mobs fought, etc etc, then the game would be rather boring, right?

With that, I'm done w/ this thread :) Good luck to my tiny PLD brothers.

I'm gonna go check my PMs from Artonis. They really need a pop up screen that says "Go check your PMs, fool!"

[maytrix]

Paladins aren't exactly suppose to deal a lot of damage but damn a taru paladin's damage dealing is absolutely pathetic. When every other race is able to wear life belt and royal guard collar to somehow work on their offense the taru paladin (good ones anyway) have to keep raising their vitality to get it to a respectable level.

[Artonis]

Originally posted by Loial


I'm gonna go check my PMs from Artonis. They really need a pop up screen that says "Go check your PMs, fool!"

haha Loial, they DO have that feature, but sometimes it doesn't work. I had one when you replied to me.