Summoner Subjob

[Ungerpurr]

Ok, I can see it for Galka or Elvaan, who have a severe MP and int shortage when it comes to blm. But tarus? Please god, why? Does the extra 35 MP a taru gets from /smn rather than /whm at level 48 help much (from 599 MP to 634)? Or the three more int (granted, 3 int is nice, but still...). For this, you give up Blink, Paralyze, Slow, Regen, and the (very) occasional heal?

Just had to ask...grouped with a BLM/SMN tonight...first of all, while not BAD, per se, he wasn't the greatest blm (fighting beetles in garlaige, imho the only nukes you should be casting outside of MB are blizzard 2, blizzaga, and blizzard....he used every spell he had). He couldn't debuff properly because of his subjob, which left our whm spending precious time better used for resting MP at the start of every battle casting debuffs (paralyze, slow, etc.). Yeah, I know, a rdm is better for this, but we didn't have one.

I understand that you become a blm because you want to cast magic that makes stuff dead, but I hope I'm not the only one that feels that /smn under a blm main is an abomination. The only possible reasonable use that I can see for /smn for a blm is when sub is 25+, and even then it's very sketchy.

[Coinspinner]

With no RDM the WHM should be the one to cast those anyway.

[AtraposBLM]

that's one of the situations where /whm is better than /smn. Had you a rdm, his /smn would have been fine.

Pre lv50 though, I don't really see what /smn adds. After 50, you get blinkga (underestimated...AND overestimated lol) and auto-regen. I'm starting to consider subbing smn myself for the parties with rdm and whm. Who knows...

[Ungerpurr]

Changed the subject to more reflect what I was ranting about. I still don't think /smn is that great of a sub post-50 for blm, but at least it serves a purpose. As far as whm/* vs. blm/whm doing enfeebles, I've yet to see anything but anecdotal evidence that MND helps enfeebles land. Hell, one guide on the summoner page for smn/rdm recommends you pump up your INT to land enfeebles. Personally, I think your enfeebling magic skill is all that matters, same as elemental for landing nukes.

[Nodoka]

MND is for enfeebles.. One time I was pting in Quicksand with a Summoner. For fun, I asked him to use Glittering Ruby until I got the +12 INT. Being unlucky as I am, I constantly got +MND instead. Now with the +12 MND I noticed ALL my enfeebles were landing. Before, I had around a 1/4 or 1/3 landing rate. But now everything I did was sticking. I was like o.O;;;;; and from then on, I was convinced MND is for enfeebles. ^^

[Ungerpurr]

Like I said, anecdotal. ^^

[Altruist]

MND has a direct impact on white magic enfeebles, and int has a direct impact on black magic enfeebles. Please do a search or look through the rdm pages to see a good chunk of evidence. It is most evident that I can't even land a paralyze w/o switching to mnd gear, and at the same point gravity doesn't do too hot w/o +int gear.

[FFXITsukasa]

I disagree. I think SMN as a sub is a good thing. A White Mages job is to cure and recover. A black Mages job is to nuke and enfeeble so whatever sub job they take on is acceptable. Just people that want to level like mad get all pissy because a Black mage doesn't have White mage as a sub job so they can help cure and recover. Their are some people out there that are more laid back and don't really give a damn about constantly leveling so Summoner isn't a problem for them. I personally am going to be a Summoner and support the idea very much. I respect Summoners because some people won't group with them just because they aren't the common WHM/BLM or BLM/WHM combo everyone seems to seek and love.

[Rones]

Was in kazham last night lvling my blm sub as blm/whm and was grouped with a whm/blm, and taru smn/blm (refused to switch to /whm). Well, we lost our tank 4 times because me and the whm barely ran out of mp at the end of the fight while the smn/blm still had 200+ mp, but she couldn't cure. Had she been blm/smn, it would have been the same situation. Blm without cures is gimped. Times will arrise when those cures are very needed, despite it being the whm's role, they do run out of mp at times and that is beyond their control usually. The only time I see it alright to go blm/smn is if these are meet:
1. Whm in party
2. Rdm in party
3. You are 50+ blm actually getting refresh from 25 smn sub
4. You have partied with the whm and rdm before and know they can handle it.
5. You realize that at 50+ when you get refresh you will rarely use all your mp as a blm anyway.

Then you can maybe get away with blm/smn.

[Oompa]

From what I'm hearing here, this is the impression I'm getting from the opinions you guys posted:

BLM/WHM = glorified healer due to poor WHMs
BLM/RDM = glorified and horribly gimped debuffer
BLM/SMN = Useless.

I've played BLM/SMN for a while now with not a single complaint. The only person that questioned it was a whm that just SUCKED. He kept spamming cure V over and over again getting aggro from the PLD. He wanted me to cure too so he wouldn't take so much hate. He's cast Cure V for 140HP when obvioulsy Cure II or Cure III would have worked just fine. Needless to say, he was booted soon after. Other than that, 99% of the people I party with know my reputation. They know I'm one of the best BLMs on our server(our level) for dealing massive damage and controlling hate well. Even with WHM subbed I NEVER (NEVER!) use a single cure in a fight unless we're playing a somewhat regular party I have of BRD, RDM, BLM, PLD, DRK, and one other (not WHM). The ONLY reason I would ever see for subbing WHM as a BLM is for sneak and invisible to get to the harder to reach areas. I never cure, I never debuff anything other than my elemental debuffs, and the RDM, BRD, or WHM (if we have one) will cast sneak and invisible on me.

I get so many requests to change to BLM/SMN because people know what I can do with the job. It's not the job that sucks guys, it's the players playing it. Forget the conventional ideas on what a BLM "should" do and learn to play the job to it's fullest potential.

You don't reqire a MNK to sub WAR just to tank "in case" the PLD can't control hate. You just expect the PLD to control hate, period. It's silly to choose your subjob based on the inabilities of others.

[Oompa]

One thing to note:

Post 60, the most important thing to a party is the ability to chain kills for greater XP. With SMN sub you relieve some stress off the RDM to refresh you, and have a greater MP pool to chain with. I get MP back so fast it's disgusting. With 919MP at level 61 I can chain longer than anyone else in the party. Really, I NEVER have to stop......

[Ruinwraith]

IMO, smn sub is fine if

1. you're 50+
2. there are 2 other people with large mana pool in the party that can heal. smn/whm, rdm/x, or whm/x

Having garuda is a big plus as well. No real excuse not to now with the new lvl 20 avatar fights. Goto the smn board for tips/videos, they aren't that hard.

Point is you shouldn't just have one sub job and then defend it to the death about how its the best ever, but have a selection to choose from to best fit your party's needs.

I've been in many groups with a whm and rdm where I didn't have to heal for hours. That doesn't mean ALL groups you're not going to have to heal. Honestly what I'd miss most about /smn is not having sneak or invis.

"5. You realize that at 50+ when you get refresh you will rarely use all your mp as a blm anyway."

Btw I disagree with this, you can ALWAYS use more mp from auto-refresh.

[Oompa]

Originally posted by Ruinwraith
IMO, smn sub is fine if

1. you're 50+
2. there are 2 other people with large mana pool in the party that can heal. smn/whm, rdm/x, or whm/x

Having garuda is a big plus as well. No real excuse not to now with the new lvl 20 avatar fights. Goto the smn board for tips/videos, they aren't that hard.

Point is you shouldn't just have one sub job and then defend it to the death about how its the best ever, but have a selection to choose from to best fit your party's needs.

I've been in many groups with a whm and rdm where I didn't have to heal for hours. That doesn't mean ALL groups you're not going to have to heal. Honestly what I'd miss most about /smn is not having sneak or invis.

My point exactly, thank you.

[Altruist]

darkstaff > blm/smn, having someone else to poisona paralyna etc is very nice. Your rdm/blm needs reduced mana consumption more than you need to have a squirrel-dog.

If you consider a darkstaff too expensive, think that you can raise the gil for it in the same amount of time that it takes for you to raise summoner to an appropriate level.

If your below 50 don't even think about subbing anything but /whm or /rdm, you need all the curing power you can get unless you have a ninja. But if you have a ninja and you don't have a bard/whm, guess who gets to do status spells, you.

[Ruinwraith]

and blm/smn with a dark staff > just a dark staff. And yes, I have one already.

Here's what I've been fighting for the last 17 or 18 levels:

Goblins
Beetles
Crabs
Pugils
Raptors

Tell me, as I can't get viruna til 68/34, what status cures have I had to use in the past month or two?

Like I said, your subjob should depend on what's in your party and what you are fighting. It's not a permanent choice.

[Altruist]

The point I was trying to make is that the summoner sub job only offers marginal benifits for major decrimants in party ability. The auto-refresh is a minor aid, more mp helps but using mp management will eliminate this need. If you have a dark staff you regen more than enough while your medding. Having a few extra cures is always greater than extra mp and a few summons.

BTW at 62 your amout to fight in onzozo, silence and paralyze like hell, after that crawlers and darters, tons of poison, after that kuftal with paralyze again. Bone PT, tons of statuses again. Hell, having dispel as a blm is a good idea if you fight weapons in ro'maev.

Sure you can use it, but I would never do it, and I would never choose a blm/smn, or ask if they have another sj.

[almighty_boof]

What I find HILARIOUS is that a month or two ago I was defending BLM/SUM and a few people in here who were bashing me before are now sticking up for it! I'm glad you guys see the light, however, you should pick a choice! XD BLM/SUM RULE!

[FFXITsukasa]

I agree. And now that you can get Summons and a lower level you can get you avatars up to level and use their special skills to great advantages. I have White Mage as my sub and I hardly ever Cure or despell in battle unless in dire straights. My job is Black Mage and that job involves weakening the enemy and damaging them with spells. White Mage is kinda just an added bonus to take stress away after battle. My job is Black Mage THEN White Mage. When its BLM/SMN my job is still to weaken and damage and use my Summons to support my party when need. (Ex Pulling, Healing Light, Spring Water, Blink, etc.)

[evilution]

you mean BLM/SUM rule at setting in jeuno LFG.

[Altruist]

How do you dispell as a blm/whm? Many rdm would like to know.

[Mystic Fury]

what a lot of people fail to realize, i think, is that people create characters to fit a certain role. a BLM/SMN plays a certain role in the pt then a BLM/WHM. when you invite a BLM, its important that you look at the sub, not just expect that they have a whm sub. if your pt needs a blm with a whm sub, the blm/smn wont be invited. but if the pt already has a whm and a rdm, i think it would be more helpful to have a blm/smn. people create characters to offer different roles for a party, and not all people should be expected to have the same sub. it doesnt really make sense. right now i am a BLM/RDM at lvl 34, i also have a SMN/RDM at lvl 20. once i hit lvl 50 with my blm, i think i might switch to the smn sub, because thats the role that i want to play in the party. i dont want to be a blm who heals sometimes. if i did, i would stick with my rdm sub. i want to be a blm with support summon abilities. and it will work, i just shouldnt be invited to a party expecting to do something else. when people see a blm/smn, they should see that they are offering a certain role to the pt, and if they dont need them, they dont have to invite them, but you shouldnt bash someone and say that smn isnt as effective because of the lack of healing.

[irecinius]

I have a kind of static pt.. usually we all hunt together... and its this layout... PLD,RNG,SAM,RDM,WHM,BLM (me)

I do little to NONE Healing whatsoever... thank god Toramas are over.. so just ocasional Poison from Crawlers and Flys.. since Pld is the only one getting poisoned... i can pretty much SUB whatever is fine.. Subbing SMN on thoses kind of pts can be helpfull...

Garuda Blink, Fenrir Erase and Evasion down(this is great), Shiva Freeze Armor, Leviatan Gravity

[Xarndelius]

Whm sub is fun and very useful in my opinion. As a BLM/WHM your able to fill more pt roles then a BLM/SMN.

I've noticed, higher the lvl, slimmer the pickings. The BLM/WHM is simply the best combo for a blm, i believe. Its nice to know that as long as the tank does his job, and i'm not stupid, I can handle myself. With Cures, nukes, etc.

The WHM sub just gives soo many spells that the few useful bloodpacts you get just wouldn't add up.

Honestly, I think Summoner is a good sub job for one job, White Mage. I mean..when is the last time you've seen a WHM nuke? They get Warp from our job, thats about it. With Summoner they are gaining MP while standing, and can carry around more beneficial spells for the pt then a blm sub. The only reason they sub blm is for the mp and Conserve MP.

Anyways just my opinion. I couldn't do /smn, just so narrow, and well I like /whm!

[AtraposBLM]

There have been a few instances where having /smn would've been nice...but those ended well before lv60. Basically, the only time /smn is cool is from lv50 to lv60 (and its only debatably *on par* with whm...most would agree it's not even as good as whm...so that would be nice). That's when having auto-refresh and blinkga could be nice...but after 60, you exp on things you really want to have status cures on (Torama ; ;)

Even after then...helping a whm out by poisona'ing the pld, barwatering the party, etc. really makes you stand out as a blm. It also helps spend the time between bursts...lol

[evilution]

SMN is even less desireable after 70 or 72 when errant + dark staff + your last clear mind trait means you can regen MP like a madman.

I dont even worry about my MP any more it refils so quickly.

[riceburner4540]

let me apologize in advance for the extremely long post.

i still stand firm on my opinion of blm/whm > blm/smn. as i've said before, i haven't had mp problems (i might, if i subbed smn and used aerial armor...). i never make the group wait for my mp, i'm usually up and running 10 seconds into the battle, and i do my job well. why should i sub summoner then? to give me mp i won't use when i could have potentially useful spells, such as bar spells and cures, sneak and invisible? granted, i'll probably never use the cures but its nice to know that they're there.

with a smn (not SUM) sub, you'll gain a few points of int and a larger mp pool with auto-refresh. nice...but if you have no problems with your mp pool or regenerating mp as a blm/whm, what reason do you need to use smn? blood pacts? the only remotely useful one is aerial armor...you'll save your tank from getting hit twice cuz lets face it, the other members won't be getting hit. nice...but it cost you 92 mp...you could've casted stone III for a potential 340 damage. it might be useful on mobs with dangerous AE attacks, but through the 50s, you'll fight mostly crabs. those 2 hits would cost a white mage a mere cure III or at most a cure III and cure II (46-70 mp, tops). all other blood pacts' duration is far too short to warrant the time and mp cost used to activate.

there's only one situation i can think of that would warrant a smn subjob...and the only situation i would even consider doing so. if i'm killing anything that requires dangerous pulls, subbing smn and using carbuncle to pull is fairly safe and reliable. if you want to be the strongest damage dealer, a blm/smn would beat out any other blm/mage given equal equipment, but the damage difference is 3, maybe 5 points per spell. is that really worth giving up all those utility spells? also, as a blm/smn, you'd better start carrying lots of silent oils and prism powders...

edit: addressing a few points other posters brought up

Garuda Blink, Fenrir Erase and Evasion down(this is great), Shiva Freeze Armor, Leviatan Gravity

why use leviathan's gravity when you have a rdm in party? freeze armor doesn't warrant the 63 mp cost as well as summoning cost simply because the 2-3 damage per hit the spikes deal to the monster is nothing...i can cast a stone spell for more damage. the paralyze effect of ice spikes will be worthless also, since if you have a rdm worth his salt, he'll keep paralyze on the mob. as far as fenrir's abilities go, the evasion down is probably the only nice one, if you can get fenrir and make the ability stick. and also, the rdm's dispel is superior to fenrir's (single target, much safer)

When its BLM/SMN my job is still to weaken and damage and use my Summons to support my party when need. (Ex Pulling, Healing Light, Spring Water, Blink, etc.)

time spent pulling is time you don't get to use for restoring mp. i would only sub smn to pull only if we're not leveling (doing coffer keys or something) and the pulls are risky and dangerous. i assume you mean healing ruby...by the time you actually get that ability off, your tank would be dead. for healing use /whm, /smn doesn't get spring water, and i've already discussed how aerial armor isn't quite worth the mp cost (for blm).

I have White Mage as my sub and I hardly ever Cure or despell

the whm sub isn't merely for curing. sneak/invis, bar spells, -na spells, etc... are a great asset to the party, much more than blinkga will ever be. also, how the hell do you dispel with a whm sub?

what a lot of people fail to realize, i think, is that people create characters to fit a certain role. a BLM/SMN plays a certain role in the pt then a BLM/WHM.

nope, i think the roles are pretty much the same. as a black mage, your primary job is to land your elemental enfeebles, nuke, sleep adds, escape, etc. the sub merely adds flexibility. with a whm sub, you are far more flexible than smn job.

[AtraposBLM]

riceburner:handsdown

[MidgardPlas]

Well said riceburner.

[Lakario]

I personally believe that the cons of not being able to enfeeble or heal are far too great for a blm/smn; however, whm/smn is a very nice combo past 50. You have great mp and you can auto-refresh. BLM sub for whm is the typical setup but doesn't add all that much. The white mage shouldn't be casting black magic spells so why even sub it?

[riceburner4540]

aside from a bit of an mp boost (which a smn sub also does, but better), blm's conserve mp trait is pretty nice also. although it is a powerful trait, its not something to rely on, but its effects are noticeable, just not consistent. smn's auto-refresh is very consistent. having a blm sub provides you with a few useful spells, like sleep in case of an add, warp, escape, tractor. usually the rdm can take care of this if something happened to the rdm but rdms don't always sub blm. or what if the rdm is incapacitated and the blm is dead? what if you don't have a blm and instead of a rdm, you have a brd? there are many situations when having /blm is better than /smn but all in all, i think whm/smn and whm/blm are fairly equal.

[Karinya]

Because if you do the math, conserve MP lets you cast more spells without running out of MP than /smn's higher MP *plus* auto-refresh.

Even more so if rdm or brd is present - conserve MP lets each of your MP count more, auto-refresh doesn't.

Even if you never nuke, warp, escape - at level 40+ /blm is the best way to cast more spells.

Except for smn, because conserve MP doesn't affect avatar perpetuation cost and they don't have any useful spells to cast without /whm (or /rdm).

[Tikki]

Most of the arguments against blm/smn are very accurate and I hear them often. I will in fact not reccommend it to most. I willingly and knowingly sacrifice the extra utility for the little extra blasting power and situational utility instead of overall utility.

And no, I don't sit forever lfp in Jeuno.

And to quote the greatest BLM of all time:

I CASTS THE SPELLS THAT MAKES THE PEOPLES FALL DOWN!

[Asmandeus]

Unless I'm in a static party, I see /whm as the best sub to bring to the table. You have much better chances to get a party by being flexible. Whm brings a bunch of useful spells...

HOWEVER -

In a set party that has it's role defined (for example my current party is pld/war whm/blm rdm/whm nin/war war/nin and me), I will always sub summoner for xping. Being elvaan, I lack two things; INT and MP. Recently through tests I've discovered that raising INT over my poor low MP is better on costs. Subbing summoner before 50 has it's merits in both these areas. Reasons being:

1) INT - It gives you more int over the whm subjob. At 20 you have +2 INT, at 48 it gives +3 INT. INT effects damage and resists in particular earlier on.

2) MP - Summoner sub gives a lot more mp than whm. I need all the MP I can get without sacrificing INT. Even more so later when the huge nukes will eat away quickly at my Elvaan mp.

Summoner gives both and my role in this party is to do as much damage as possible.

As riceburner said, the role is the same with the lack of flexibilty with the summoner sub. But I believe black mage / summoner, while not as flexible, helps black mage do it's main job better at the cost of helping out in emergancies (or sneak/invis etc) with white mage subbed. You can't really deny that.

We don't ask Rangers to sub whm to help the party out, we want them to use something to help their main deal as much damage as possible - that's their job, much like Black Mage we do damage. The only difference is that it's easier for us to sub white mage and be flexible in that category.

[Asmandeus]

Just for those who skip my long posts. ;)

Black mage / White mage = Party friendly and Flexible you can add cures, use various nice whm spells and help the party move to camps/coffer hunt with sneak/invisible . It's a good sub to balance a party out.

Black mage / Summoner = Tight niche that isn't so party friendly, but makes you the Black mage incarnate, your role with this sub is to focus on raw elemental damage and black mage only enfeebles.

[riceburner4540]

that is true, you are built solely for doing damage as a blm/smn, but then again the damage increase you get from a few int points isn't very much...neither is the mp gain. at 50/25 you get like 36 more mp and 2 more int, not all too impressive. the only really nice thing you get is probably the auto-refresh. 2 int will be like +2 damage per spell, maybe +3.

if you're in a static party and you can pull this off though, more power to ya :thumbsup:

[Asmandeus]

I checked it out with a 50 blm in my shell. Summoner gives +3 int subbed at 50 (on charts it says level 48). Probably up to +4 later.

But you're right it's a little bonus in damage, a little help with resists, a bit more mp, and auto refresh finally. But then again, if you want to go the damage only role, you might as well get everything possible. Plus you can never go wrong with more INT and MP as an Elvaan unless of course it's at the cost of your party's safety.

Anyway, I'm planning on flip flopping my subs around much like I did with Warrior (nin/mnk/thf/sam whatever was needed for the party that day).

[AtraposBLM]

At lv60/30 blm/smn though, they gained a new bonus. At lv60/30, you gain the smn's Max MP up trait (+30 mp). This isn't the first, but it is the last and the largest you get from a smn subjob (I think). Couple this with the new earrings you can wear (+30 mp) for a whopping +60 mp. That's truly huge.

Thinking about it again, blm/smn is useful whenever the situation calls for a blm to be nothing more than damage. This is almost never in exp parties, but outside of them, as in, while camping HNM or NM, a blm/smn could have it's uses. At the same time though, having /whm is STILL more helpful on most HNM, unless you're willing to spend several thousand gil on bringing stacks of sneak/invis pots with you every time you go.

[Asmandeus]

Luckily with high Alchemy, it's easy to HQ synth AH bought materials for Silent oil and Prism powders so often that it becomes free (sell the stacks, keep the extras).

[FFXITsukasa]

In my opinion I am a Black Mage. My job is to weaken and destroy the enemy. Summoner helps me do that by increasing my Intelligence and MP I can spend. Like someone said here before "I CASTS THE SPELLS THAT MAKES THE PEOPLES FALL DOWN!" Summoner helps me do my job better! Just like Paladin helps a Warrior do their job better.

[Yuanlung]

just an observation.....

I can't help but find it funny that people would defend the Hume/Elvaan race and claim "the +INT and +MP from Taru doesn't matter", and when they are defending their summoner sub, the +INT and +MP suddenly becomes an issue.. :sweat:

I think the most important reason is that people like hume/elvaan because they look good (as to a foot-tall melon head :sweat: ), and they want the summoner sub because it looks cool, but they feel too proud to admit it, thus, these lengthy discussions over obvious matters. :biggrin:

Personally, I am going with BLM/WHM all the way, so I get the best of both worlds, +INT +MP, and the party support abilities and versatilities of the whitemage sub. :)

[AtraposBLM]

I thought the same thing:rolleyes:

[riceburner4540]

i'm a hume black mage...i know our mp is crap compared to tarus, but i can make due with what i have quite easily, at least at this point. i won't ever make a taru for increased int and mp, nor will i ever sub smn for those reasons.

[Taga]

if you want to get to 75 make sure you keep your whm or rdm up also

[Nici]

I think smn sub for blm is a good thing. You get more base INT, than rdm, or whm. So your blm spells do more dmg. Then you get Max MP boost which is great. I don't think you need whm sub, almost 99% of the time there will be a whm, AND a rdm in a party. So they can heal, as a blm you really shouldn't have to heal. Plus the Auto refresh from smn sub, along with dark staff, and rdm refresh you would hardly ever run out of mp.

[aszid]

but...

had you chosed Taru as a race, you would have gotten far more of an INT and MP boost, without having to sacrifice so many extremely usefull spells.

yet, people say that hume and elvaan can be just as good of a black mage all the time.....


(BTW, sub NIN and use 2 wands, then you would have more int than any other sub would give you, including summoner)

/sigh

[riceburner4540]

I think smn sub for blm is a good thing. You get more base INT, than rdm, or whm. So your blm spells do more dmg. Then you get Max MP boost which is great. I don't think you need whm sub, almost 99% of the time there will be a whm, AND a rdm in a party. So they can heal, as a blm you really shouldn't have to heal. Plus the Auto refresh from smn sub, along with dark staff, and rdm refresh you would hardly ever run out of mp.

doesn't seem like you read the thread...and don't use purple font, its kinda irritating.

yet, people say that hume and elvaan can be just as good of a black mage all the time.....

not just as good, but almost as good...it all depends on the player. stats of course, make quite a big difference but taru's superior int adds up to a mere 10-20 points more damage per spell, given a hume or elvaan of equal equipment. when a spell is hitting for 300-400, or even 500+, i don't think 10-20 damage will make much of a difference. having that crazy mp pool would be nice though, but like i said earlier, i make due with what i have quite easily so i see no reason to go taru.

[peacemaker]

A BLM/WHM or BLM/RDM, even without black cloak or dark staff, your MP should rarely fall below 30% in standard PT set up with at least 1 RDM or BRD chaining 4-5 monsters. With that I'm talking about doing at least 3 weaken spells, all MBs, help with healing, and casting a random attack spell here and there for finishing things off. This only refers to BLMs who play effectively. Others can sub BST or go "Battle Mage" and it wouldn't make any difference.

BLM/SMN is for when you are bored and would like a pet to follow you around and send it out to die - its more entertaining than interacting with most PCs. If you wear black or vermillion cloak, you can go AFK for hours and the MP won't run out, cute gimmick for bazaar outside of town :spin:

[sudo]

from a gander at the SMN abilities available to a blm/smn even at 75 that are potentially useful in a pt: (some skills are left out because it would be far more effective and MP efficient to just cast the spell yourself)

Carbuncle:

Healing Ruby: cure some HP, pretty weak
Shining Ruby: protect and shell that stacks with current protect and shell.

Ifrit:

none at current level cap

Titan:

none at current level cap

Leviathan:

Tail Whip: leviathan casts Gravity. I would suspect very high resists with this one though as smn skill is 1/2ed
Slowga: Area slow spell. Also very likely to be resisted and area will be very dangerous
Spring water is not available for current level cap

Garuda:

Vacuum Armor: blink everyone (great ability:thumbsup: )
Whispering Wind: area heal spell (might be useful but only available at 72/36)
Hastega is not available under current level cap

Shiva:

Freeze armor: party Ice Spikes (kind of mp inefficient but could be useful)
Sleepga is not available under the lv cap

Ramuh:

Thunder Hand Drum: Increase defence to thunder (now I don't remember getting hit by too many lightning spells myself but could be semi useful - why not just barthundra though?)

Fenrir:

Crescent Fang: costs 19 MP to cast a paralyze doesn't seem worth it to me.
Lunar Cry: Enemy Accuracy and evasion down (great pt ability but I wonder about getting resisted again due to low summoning skill)
Lunar Roar: Area dispell. Slightly dangerous but can be useful. But only available at 74/32 and getting resisted will probably be resisted alot.

[Tikki]

Ramuh should also have Rolling Thunder, the group enthunder with current level cap. It can be useful.

[AtraposBLM]

it would be helpful if it lasted for more than 3-4 hits. As it is, it's a useless waste of mp.

[Tikki]

Duration 1 minute. Melee accuracy may vary. I'd list it as situational, depending on what kind of melee/weaponry you have going.

[AtraposBLM]

never actually lasted a minute that I ever saw...

[riceburner4540]

given that there's usually about 3 melee hitters, including the tank and that the group en-thunder ability adds maybe...5-7 damage per hit, thats not much, even if the melees land all their hits for 1 minute. you could probably do comparable damage sending 1 nuke with the 52 mp + perpetuation cost + summoning cost of ramuh at that level.

[FFXITsukasa]

Oh hell no. I have admitted in many threads before that I was Hume because I prefered how they looked over all races and I wanted to be Summoner because its uber cool. It just looks, in the words of Peter Griffon, "Freakin' Sweet!" and I don't mind admitting it. I just add that Summoner has the capability to help me do my job which is sorta just an added bonus to the coolness.

[aszid]

hmm....

please don't take too much offense....

but i try to avoid the "uber" people in this game. looking cool, and/or being unique does not make you an asset to your party. and unfortunately it's that same attitude that leads to people having crappy gear... because it "looks cool"

Something you may not realize yet, is that you're probably the only one that is in awe of your "uberness"

[FFXITsukasa]

I think most people forget. This is a game. Square Enix intended it to be just like that. you can be your favorite thing from any Final Fantasy game and wear armor you think looks good or is effective. The point of an MMORPG is that everything is under your control. The way you look the way you act the way you fight all decided by you. I am completly sure I will get parties being SMN/BLM, BLM/SMN, WHM/BLM or whatever. The point is if it is something a party is looking for or needs you have a good chance of getting invited. And who said I was in awe? If you are happy with what you chose to be in this game, is it not alright for me to be psyched about my job of choice, Summoner? The point I am making was made in another thread. You don't need 'uber' equipment or the ever so popular cookie cutter job combo to be a good player. All you need is the skill. I could be a SMN/BLM but because of the way I use my Avatar or something I could be a very popular mage. I hope you understand that some people play this game just to play it and that alot of people aren't quite as picky as alot of you on this forum are.

[Tikki]

The problem is it doesn't work and people do get as picky and even pickier in game than they do here. The best way to escape the cookie cutter is to play only with friends or make a reputation of being absolutely exceptional at what you do.

Aside, no way you use the avatar can make smn/blm work well. I've tried. You just run out of mp after largely resisted spells and avatar perpetuation cost. :(

[aszid]

well....

As you get further in this game (assuming you do), you'll learn, and change to be more like the others that are posting in this forum. you may doubt it now... but it will happen.

when you get to lvl 45+ and party invites start being slow (even as a blm), you will change your perspective. It is not fun LFP for hours or even days straight. yes, you could farm at the same time, or craft, or do any number of other things but all of those things end up being boring and repetative.

yes, it is a game, i play this game to have fun too. but i have fun by progressing in this game, and by pushing the limits of my job. I sub whm for that rare occasion when my whm skills are needed. sure in each party i'm in i only use whm a few times, but when i do it generally makes the difference between life and death. As a taru Blm, at my level, I am generally the only one with a decent amount of mp left at the end of chains, and being able to do a divine seal + curaga, or status heals, is something that makes me shine in the eyes of my party.

I am not trying to say that SMN is a totally useless sub for blackmage, it can be a very viable option in CERTAIN party setups, at CERTAIN levels. I am just questioning the motives of those that choose to sub smn, regardless of the situation. You have already said quite clearly you want to do it to be "uber cool" which happens to be the lamest possible reason.

you will find out as you progress, that your approach at this game will not be fun, at least for those around you.

[Icemage]

There's a not-so-fine line between being really good at what you do, and playing a sub-standard character.

Honestly speaking, sure, BLM/SMN is still a BLM, and yes, its better than BLM/nothing. At lower levels, I doubt you will have any problems finding a party no matter what you play (well, unless you do something incredibly bad like Galka SMN/DRG...).

Once you get into the upper levels (51+), things change a lot. There are a limited number of players each level, and so what you are and how you play makes a direct impact on how many/what type of party invitations you receive.

If you think players aren't picky at higher levels, you have a very, very rude awakening headed your way. Not being picky is the difference between getting the good players at your level and making 3.5K+ XP/hr, or getting the not-so-good players at your level who make 1.5K XP/hr ( I am sure other high level players will chime in here in agreement - I can't remember the last time I joined a party that was just "ok" at level 60+ ).


Icemage

[Nici]

I happen to like my purple font. Anyways you can sub what you want. I was just saying the pros you get from subbing summoner. Playing my 49 blm for the past week I have no had to heal the party at all. So whm does me personally no good. There is always a whm, and rdm in the group. I think it would benefit me for mp refresh, blinkga if needed, INT, and Max MP boost. But this is just my thoughts. And yes taru would have been a better race for a mage, but I did start playing as another class. And after all my work on missions, and quests I didnt' want to start all over just so I could be a taru blm. :)
Anyways this is a game have fun with it!

[AtraposBLM]

A 49 blm wouldn't have blinkga or auto-refresh...

/smn is utterly useless until lv50 blm. It doesn't give significantly more mp, it doesn't give you any good abilities, and the lack of heals, sneak, invisibility, and status cures combine to make /smn a terrible sub choice before lv50.

After lv50, /smn can be a decent sub, depending on your party setup and how good the rest of your party is.

After lv60, /smn gives a significantly larger amount of mp, however, you still don't have any useful abilties (although the autorefresh is nice), and here's where you start fighting things that love to spam status effect moves. If you don't want your whm to be struggling between curing silence, paralyna, and healing the pld, wasting tons of MP on using higher cures than they needed because the pld took too much damage while they were curing status effects, being observant let's you cure the status ailments for the whm, freeing them to worry just about healing. I found that I always have more mp than the whm, so this lets the whm last longer, bringing our chains higher.

On dynamis runs, however, I think /smn would be awesome. +8 mp/sec (ballad, ballad II, refresh, black cloak, auto-refresh) would be real sweet, the extra mp would be handy, and the only thing you'd lose is stoneskin (which only helps your first run, btw, when you don't know how to avoid the AoE). It might also be handy for certain HNM...but most, stoneskin is better to help you avoid the frequent AoEs they do.

[Nici]

A 49 blm wouldn't have blinkga or auto-refresh...

/smn is utterly useless until lv50 blm. It doesn't give significantly more mp, it doesn't give you any good abilities, and the lack of heals, sneak, invisibility, and status cures combine to make /smn a terrible sub choice before lv50.

DUH yes I know this! Of course you don't get that stuff till 50/25....... I do have jobs that lvl.
And I was just saying my personal thoughts. That is what I think is best for ME. Anyways you can think what you want, but don't sit and tell me why I shouldn't sub it. Silent oils and prism powders take care of sneak/invis. And even tho smn doesn't give a huge amount of mp it gives more than any other sub. Plus the int bonus. But remember i've already said this, and these are only what I think. *shrug* I just like to play and have a good time. :biggrin:

[FFXITsukasa]

I agree Nici. I want to play Summoner because I think its cool AND it has the capabilities to help me with my main job as a Black Mage. I have plenty of friends and my LS, RedDawn that parties with me. I am sure I will get my parties and that I dont want to be WHM, that why I took Alchemy so I can cure stat ailments or even give it to the tank so they can toss em and cure themselves of errors. Sure might not sound that smart but I have decided I want to be Summoner, no not to be as Aszid says "uber cool" but because I like Summoning stuff and burning things. Two birds with one stone so who gives a crap about what others think? Thats their own personal opinion and just because they think like that I have to ruin my game play for them?! I think not.

[aszid]

Oh hell no. I have admitted in many threads before that I was Hume because I prefered how they looked over all races and I wanted to be Summoner because its uber cool. It just looks, in the words of Peter Griffon, "Freakin' Sweet!" and I don't mind admitting it. I just add that Summoner has the capability to help me do my job which is sorta just an added bonus to the coolness.




I think i'm done here.

[Highmage]

ok, May 2002:
if you did a /sea all you would see many odd combinations.
whm/mnk
brd/drk
pld/blm

and if there were summoners back then you would probably see many blm/smn
who knows

now May 2004:
try a /sea all level 50+
how many blm/smn will you see? maybe 1 or 2?

question: why do you think that is?

answer: evolution, the same reason why neanderthals are now extinct. after 2+ years of evolution in vanadiel, the retarded combinations have been weeded out. yes, i am insinuating that blm/smn is like a neanderthal.

[almighty_boof]

Try playing HNM with BLM/SUM as opposed to BLM/WHM, you'll be glad you did. Also, BLM/SUM does suck pre lv 50 (hurts the ego a little) but after that it is a very good sub to be, IMO. A while back I remeber arguing that it was crap because you couldn't Sneak or Invisible. I love Sneak Potions and Prism Powders for this. The nifty boost in MP is more than comendable. With the Auto-Refresh ability it makes party XPing going by a lot quicker.

Howerver, you need to suit yourself to how you will benefit the party best. If there is a BRD/WHM (or RDM/WHM) and a WHM in the group, I think it would be afe to say, "Bring on the BLM/SUM!!" But if you have insufficient healing, I'm afraid to say, "Go with boring ass /WHM" But to be qute honest. When you are lv 50 and they see a BLM pop, they will snab you anyways. People are so scarce at higher lvs that it is hard to find partys (in my experiences).

To sum up, it depends on your party situation or if you are doing HNM.

[AtraposBLM]

Actually, at lv67, most times there are 4-6 blms in my leveling range also lfp. We've taken to making 4 blm 1 whm 1 rdm parties, where keeping stoneskin and blink is important. Hey, I'll take 4.5k exp/hour anyway I can get it.

But no, the majority of times (on my server at least), there are plenty of blm's to go around.

[evilution]

level all subs lazy bastages :P pick the one that will work with the PT best. Only having 1 sub is just placing an artifical limitation on yourself.

[riceburner4540]

for the LAST TIME!!! its not blm/SUM its blm/SMN! get it straight, please!!

I think it would be afe to say, "Bring on the BLM/SUM!!" But if you have insufficient healing, I'm afraid to say, "Go with boring ass /WHM"

i think playing blm/whm is more exciting than playing blm/smn. you have pretty much the same job, which is to make shit dead (overly simplified, obviously), but as a blm/whm, at least you have other spells to use. as a blm/smn, you'll never use your avatars except for dangerous pulls in non-exp parties cuz well...the abilities really aren't quite worth the mp for a blm to use.

[almighty_boof]

Yeah I guess it varies to your liking. I personally like being an omega nuker. Healing just isn't the job for me. Which I was I love to be BLM/SUM. XD

[riceburner4540]

for the LAST TIME!!! its not blm/SUM its blm/SMN! get it straight, please!!

Yeah I guess it varies to your liking. I personally like being an omega nuker. Healing just isn't the job for me. Which I was I love to be BLM/SUM.

ARGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

/em shoots himself.

[Andry]

i look at this thread and i cry.

[ogre5278]

Ok, for the love of god auto-refresh sucks people, its only 40 a minute, how is that useful, that isn't even a decent spells worth of MP!

also not that the MP up! passive abilities are NOT +30 MP, most of the extra MP is just from the sub.

Proof: my summoner is at 9, 130 mp, whm sub gives 4 mp when sub levels up, summoner gives 12mp a level, so that 146 mp I should have if I didn't get the boost. I level up to 10, I only get 156 MP total, meaning that the boost is only 10MP!.

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by ogre5278
Ok, for the love of god auto-refresh sucks people, its only 40 a minute, how is that useful, that isn't even a decent spells worth of MP!

also not that the MP up! passive abilities are NOT +30 MP, most of the extra MP is just from the sub.

Proof: my summoner is at 9, 130 mp, whm sub gives 4 mp when sub levels up, summoner gives 12mp a level, so that 146 mp I should have if I didn't get the boost. I level up to 10, I only get 156 MP total, meaning that the boost is only 10MP!.

You're absolutely right that the Max MP up trait at lv10 gives 10 mp. Nobody said otherwise. I only said that the Max MP up at lv30 gives 30 mp.

[riceburner4540]

Ok, for the love of god auto-refresh sucks people, its only 40 a minute, how is that useful, that isn't even a decent spells worth of MP!

it doesn't suck, but its not great. and its not even 40 mp per minute, its 1 mp every 3 seconds which comes out to 20 mp per minute.

[AtraposBLM]

Well, I don't have /smn leveled, but I did recently ding 68 and aquire a black cloak. From my experience with that, I can say that the 1 mp/tick isn't neccesarily a god-send, but I can definately say that it is noticeable. While resting, it equates to ~+5 mp recovered per tick (so 1/2 of a dark staff). Using /smn, with black cloak, apple pie +1, and dark staff, you get a whopping +22 mp recovered per tick. That IS pretty significant. However, the situations where having +22 mp/tick (so thats 34 mp on the first tick, as opposed to 12, at lv70 (might be thinking of the wrong level of clear mind)) instead of +17 mp/tick at the cost of cures/blink/stoneskin/sneak/invis aren't exactly that frequent. Mainly, I'd want it for Dynamis, and possibly some HNM. I haven't really done any of the major HNM yet though, so maybe blink/stoneskin really are required.

[riceburner4540]

While resting, it equates to ~+5 mp recovered per tick (so 1/2 of a dark staff).

if my math is correct, its 8mp waiting for the initial tick and 4mp per tick afterwards, while resting. a typical battle while leveling might last 1 1/2 minutes around my level, so you'll regain about 36mp during those 90 seconds if i'm right. far from godly.

[AtraposBLM]

Never said it was godly. Merely said that it was noticeable. 36 mp x5 is 180 extra mp you'd have at the end of chain 5. That's definately noticeable, especially if you're in a party with other blm's who don't have it. With black cloak and dark staff, after chain 5, I had about 450 mp left. A blm with just black cloak had about 170 or so mp left, and the 2 blm's without anything had <10 mp left. So what that comes down to is, I was ready for a chain 6 attempt, while none of the other blm's could. It also usually meant that I ended up pulling, as I'd be at full mp when they were still around half.

[Harlequin]

Blink and Stoneskin are required for HNM and Dynamis fights.
In my first dynamis I used Elemental seal +SleepgaII to put all the nasty monsters to sleep and then everyone proceeded to wake them up again. Ever had 4 IT monsters laying the smackdown on you before? I thankfully am a hume so I lived the Taru Taru sadly met an unfortunate end at the hands of those things.
Serkhet will kill you dead without Blink and Stoneskin same goes for Cactuar Rapido. Nms with GAIV yes you heard me right gaIV or Meteor will kill you no matter what defenses you have so 1 less silence spell is bad!!!!.

In the right pt SMN is a great subjob for blm in the wrong pt its the worst thing you could ever play as. For some areas /smn is a bad idea and for others hey its great.
Also I've noticed Hume and other lower mp races are better choices for /Smn. While the best choice for Taru is /RDM.

[Mageling]

Originally posted by Harlequin
In the right pt SMN is a great subjob for blm in the wrong pt its the worst thing you could ever play as. For some areas /smn is a bad idea and for others hey its great.
Also I've noticed Hume and other lower mp races are better choices for /Smn. While the best choice for Taru is /RDM.



Ahh, I couldn't agree more, /Rdm for a Taru is amazing. I just have to get 3 more levels until I become unstoppable! (Currently 65 Blm/Rdm) At level 68 you have Blink, Stoneskin, Phalanx and Dispel at your fingertips. Tell me a Blm isn't in heaven with that setup, lol.