Paladins: Are you angry about Subtle Blow?

[JayblahX]

Seems it wasn't an -enmity nerf after all, rather a useful change that gives a mob less TP than before.

Looks like Blink Tanking hasn't changed a bit, and that Ninjas have actually improved.

Angry?

[Nanila]

Not really, I expected the ability for was going to be for less TP per hit after I begin to think of the Monks Relic armor (which has the same thing to it).

[Abriael]

Angry about what? About getting less weapon skills made on us when grouping with monks?
Ninjas always have been and still are much worse tanks than paladins, so there's nothing to be angry about.

[JayblahX]

That's very hotly debated, and I dare say not at all consistantly true.

Nin/Wars, (let me correct that: rich Ninjas) can be as effective or better tanks than a Paladin, especially for HNM Tanking, as can War/Nins.

Blink Tanking seemingly has garnered much disdain by PLDs who've been asking it to nerf, so I'd assume some PLDs are angry about Subtle Blow not being -enmity.

Just wanted to add:
Please lets not turn this into yet another PLD vs. NIN tank debate. Just discussing Subtle Blow and that it wasn't a nerf to Blink Tanking as many PLD has hoped for (and some Ninjas too!).

[Abriael]

Yawn, this is getting boring.
Ninja cannot keep hate effectively, period.
Errata corrige: Ninja CAN keep hate if the party holds back in the damage field, thus resulting in slower exp. And such exp will still be less safe.
Faster+Safer > Slower+Unsafe = Paladin > Ninja subtle blow or not.
Subtle blw is an advantage since we get less weapon skill done on us, while partying with monks, don't think someone would be angry about an advantage.

[maytrix]

I'm gonna guess that Abriael doesn't like ninjas.

[AtraposBLM]

Ninja's only work with thf's in the party. They negate the usefulness of a whm. So, in a VERY SPECIFIC setting, ninja tanks can do well (possibly even better than a pld), but this is only under very specific conditions. The following should be true if you want to use a ninja tank:
1) You have a competant thf and someone who can take a few hits while you set up the SATA (so you have a total of a minimum of 3 melee)
2) You are fighting things that aren't fast attackers. Fast attackers make casting utsusemi difficult, so ninja's can't tank these at *all* until after Utsusemi: Ni, and even then they'll have some trouble
3) You aren't fighting things that use a potent poison (spiders/crawlers). Poison RIPS blink apart.
4) You have a highly damaging party without a lot of healers. Healers won't take advantage of the ninja's damage-negation ability, so in fact, they will SLOW DOWN a party with a ninja in it.
5) The ninja himself is competant and knows all the tricks to keep hate.

Given all that, ninja tanks can be as good or better than pld's. Given that this almost never happens...I'd pick a pld over a ninja every time. The only time I'd get a ninja is if I knew either the ninja or the thf I'd bring along. Coming from a blm, I LOVE pld's because I can actually cast spells outside of MB's and not get aggro instantly...

[JayblahX]

What's getting boring is the fact that Abriel is so predictable. Any thread which insinuates that Ninjas are better than Paladins (I personally prefer Paladins) boils his blood, and he comes in and argues about it repeatedly.

Read past threads in this forum for examples of that. Personally, I'll trust ANYTHING Thebruce or Imac2much says over Abriel; and they say that rich Ninjas are more effective tanks in the high-end and some others say that rich Ninjas that keep hate super-well with Shurikens, debuffs, etc. are just as effective XP tanks. Now I'm sure some Ninja will come in here and flame Abriel and this will end-up as a derailed flame-laden thread. *sigh*

This is the crux of my post: Paladins were anticipating (whether they want to admit it or not) that Subtle Blow was a -enmity skill, and it turned out not to be that. Its claimed that S-E didn't intend Ninjas to be such effective tanks, but even after the latest patch, Ninja Blink Tanking has remained unchanged if not gotten better (less threat for TP-specials; and keep in mind Nin-tanks can group with Monks too: even less threat).

The argument wasn't about how SUPER-DOOPER-AWESOME it now is for a Paladin to group with a Monk. Its about Subtle Blow in relation to Ninjas and the fact that Blink Tanking wasn't nerfed, and if PLDs are unhappy that Blink Tanking was unchanged.

[Pushbutton]

Ok, 1st off, i hate nin tanks.... ok, now that that is out of the way i actually have a question. How exactly does Subtle blow work? does it only count the 1st hit out of 2 tword TP? or does it 1/2 both or what? b/c i kno u can get it with using a mnk or nin as a sub and it seems a little unbalanced if a War/Mnk swinging a Great Axe gets the TP he produces lessened b/c of subtle blow even tho he is only using 1 weapon.

[Abriael]

Originally posted by JayblahX

This is the crux of my post: Paladins were anticipating (whether they want to admit it or not) that Subtle Blow was a -enmity skill, and it turned out not to be that. Its claimed that S-E didn't intend Ninjas to be such effective tanks, but even after the latest patch, Ninja Blink Tanking has remained unchanged if not gotten better (less threat for TP-specials; and keep in mind Nin-tanks can group with Monks too: even less threat).


Only noobs were anticipating such a thing, a paladin doesn't need ninja to be nerfed to be the ideal tank in the game, he just needs skill. So the only ones that were anticipating such a thing were unskilled paladins, and i couldn't care the less about them.
I personally don't see the point of a post coming and asking us if we're angry.

[perry]

According to the update text, the Subtle Blow trait just gives less TP to the enemy period. It doesnt say anything about changing TP acumulation per hit.

You may be confusing the new organization of the weapon skills with multiple strikes with Subtle Blow.

"- An issue concerning the accumulation of TP with weapon skills that consist of multiple strikes (i.e. Combo, Penta Thrust, etc.) has been corrected. TP will be accumulated as usual for that weapon type on the first strike (first two strikes for hand-to-hand attacks or when wielding two weapons), with each subsequent strike accumulating 1 TP. "

[JayblahX]

I personally don't see the point of a post coming and asking us if we're angry.

In hindsight, I'm inclined to agree that this thread was a bad idea.

Reason I asked however, was first; to simply get the opinions of PLDs regarding the non-nerfing of Blink Tanking.

And secondly, I also wanted to know why people think Blink Tanking is going to be nerfed, if there hasn't been indication yet towards that claim (or did I miss something?) With this latest patch, I figured if S-E wanted to nerf Blink Tanking, it would've happened... I don't know...

[gomenasai]

hihi all, first time on the paladin forum ^^

first off, i am a ninja, and i do tank now and then, but only if a paladin isn't available. (quite often unfortunately ^^;)

i think utsu tanking is really a dumb idea, and most of the time ends up taking up too many party members to create the system. also, ninja can't keep hate all too well (i heard that provoke's potency was based on charisma, which ninja have really bad charisma)

so, the party that i usually strive for has:

1) Me :P
2) A bard (friend of mine ^,^)
3) A White mage (for white maging, no?)
4) A paladin (doesn't need specific environment to tank, is just plain good)
5) A thief
6) Anything, really

Something people have a hard time thinking of is ninja's purpose in a party. I think we're much like a bard, but instead of increasing the party's stats, we lower the enemy's. We do so-so damage, and are really good pullers, too ^^

But what i usually end up doing, is helping the paladin tank. (i usually am not subjobbed warrior) So the thief and i sneak/trick, which takes some hate off the paladin so he can cure up again, though a lot of times it isn't enough to make the monster face me.

People think ninjas are only tanks, which makes me sad because we do a lot more that you don't directly see.

As for the patch, i was hoping it was a hate minus thing, i really wish it was. just so ninjas could do more than be asked to tank :(

[foobar]

Ninjas always have been and still are much worse tanks than paladins, so there's nothing to be angry about

Lmao... I love PLD but come on, get real.

[Lyonesse]

Why should we? It doesn't change the fact that NINs are situational tanks that require certain conditions be met to properly do their job in all aspects. A PLD can and will control the aggro of almost all groups (unless you really got a numbskull).

The only way you're going to get a NIN that's as effective as a PLD in terms of tanking ability, is if they're insanely rich (not just rich) and have maxed Throwing skill for spamming shurikens.

[LordBiGGs]

subtle blow only balanced the damage dealers out a little more. the fact is with a mnk in the party (not so much nin) the tank took slightly more damage. not a huge difference but why should a mnk give the enemy more tp than other damage dealers. it was basically just correcting a minor bug

and it seems to me like no one here has played both pld and nin. nin's can hold hate fine because they dont lose so much hate from damage taken. they dont have enemies stick on them like a pld does, but my nin didnt have much trouble ever holding agro. i prefer pld simply because i dont have to spend hours of boredom gil farming. but i still love nin and blink tanks are great, so before you flame nin go play the job. also nin's are good tanks til 37, then when they get utsusemi ni, they become great tanks.

also when the thread was started it was asking a simple question on subtle blow. personally i didn't know anyone was expecting a blink tank nerf as they dont need to be nerfed. but can we try to stay on topic and stop comparing nin's to pld's as we've done so many times in the past.

[July]

Odd I've been a PLD for a long time and haven't cared about NIN at all nor have I wanted them to be degraded in anyway. I frankly don't care that they could be better at tanking. Doesn't matter to me. Just because my job does something I'm not expecting it to be without a doubt the best of it's type. As for subtle blow I don't see how this is a negative for PLDs..

[Zaptruder]

On average; plds will tank better then nins.

But ninjas can with enough effort beat out the best paladins...

but that's ALOT of effort; because at the topend; we can get -45% (more if you resort to using darksteel subligar set) dmg reduction (-10% on Rare/Ex Adaman breastplate, -10% rare/ex defender ring, -5% rare/ex jelly ring, -20% earth staff). which makes for a really nice HNM tank.

[Asherek]

Subtle Blow was added for the 2 classes that did double-attacks. Monks hit with 2 attacks, as do Ninjas with Duel Wield.

The issue was that, the normal "attack" of a Monk or a Ninja was in fact being counted twice by the mobs, in terms of TP accumulation. This has been fixed with Subtle Blow.

This has nothing to do with nerfing tanking, utsesemi, blah blah blah. It is simply fixing the game mechanic of TP accumulation by the mob.

[Voyager]

You know, I don't really see the point for conflict between Paladin and Ninja tanks. Even with both Ninja and Paladin tanks, there simply don't seem to enough tanks, and from what I understand, it gets even worse at the later levels, once Wars and Monks lose the ability to tank.

If anything, we need more classes capable of tanking at late levels, rather than less.

Harry Voyager

[TheBruce]

I didn't even bother reading most of this...

Both Nin and Pld can tank very well...

Some monsters Nin can tank better, others Pld...

Hnm is the same. While hate is harder to hold as nin on hnm's, some require a nin whereas others require a Pld. I probably tank 80% of hnm's and nin or war/nin tank the others. And on some monsters like KB its a combined effort of Pld/Nin/War. I actually like watching Nin tank now cause its so damn funny. For a good portion of the fight they aren't being hit, but when there blink wears they can be TKO'd in one or two hits. hehe

Post 68 or so when most monsters are skeleton types and damage from othere melee's is through the roof most parties will take a pld over a nin if both are seeking.

Anyways...

http://ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/sucks7.jpg

[goyagokou]

This game has like 2 jobs for every job, Nin,Pld, War can tank, Rdm,Brd refreshers, Blm, Rng damage dealer, drk, drg, thf, War, WS power and damge dealers, Sam, Rngs TP makers and Sums, brd with Astral flow and Fenrir lol. And Rdm, Whm who can be healers. Beastman seems to be the only unique job in the game really., but they don't
need to PT to level up.:spin:

[Jaxon]

Ack! should of stick to my WAR/NIN oh well....Pld is fine too for tanking :biggrin: for real though WAR/NIN or NIN/WAR is an effective tank too at high end once you able to use Ni at 74 with those combos, and thats where you see why ninja is just as good main or sub for tanking. Then again you can see how fun WAR/NIN or NIN/WAR is around low mid level, its a fun combo to use no doubt about it. HNM is a example why you need PLD/NIN/WAR to tank oe tank is not enough for any types of tanks. Too much uber crits dmg to pld and war will hurt a lot, fast attack HNM mobs will drop that Ichi in seconds before you recast it again. As for the subtle blow thats a balance for monk and ninja vs monsters nobody gain mass tp after a hit or multi hits ws. The only nerf I see is tp returns off multi ws now that hurt a lot of players who envy multi ws like myself :eek:


In my server most ninja will tank if no pld are around looking for group which is rare now with static party, so ninja will get their fair share of tanking goodness even more now. But I have to say pld and nin pting together is just silly.

[Jinroh]

imho the way i see it is both can tank very well, with each having certain situations for tanking at their best. Pal is mage friendly while nin is melee friendly. They both have certain monsters that they should'nt fight and certain jobs that they need in their party to make them super efficient.

Nin is better with lots of melees(nin, thf, sam, monk, rdm bard for example). He can control hate better without a blm in there and whm is not really needed. dmg is there from the extra melee and since he wont be getting hit much(granted he's a rich nin) there is virtually no downtime.

Paladin is suited for that 3 melee 3 mage formation as this is where paladin excels, which is holding hate till they drop dead on the ground. If a paladin doesnt want you to get hit, you won't, but take away the rdm or blm and replace them with a melee and that party won't be as efficient.

just my two cents... tho maybe i could be way off base here :p

[Sanhime]

Originally posted by Jinroh

Nin is better with lots of melees(nin, thf, sam, monk, rdm bard for example). He can control hate better without a blm in there and whm is not really needed. dmg is there from the extra melee and since he wont be getting hit much(granted he's a rich nin) there is virtually no downtime.

Paladin is suited for that 3 melee 3 mage formation as this is where paladin excels, which is holding hate till they drop dead on the ground. If a paladin doesnt want you to get hit, you won't, but take away the rdm or blm and replace them with a melee and that party won't be as efficient.
\

Ditto.

I may add to your second part.

3 melee, 2mage, and brd formation is excellent as well. (unless if you consider brd, in any techicality, as a mage)


As far as subtle blow is concern. I've seen no difference as to how it would affect my tanking ability when I have a mnk in my PT.

[Navia]

Nin dont need a THF to tank, maybe a crappy one that only uses utsusemi and provoke only... I group with 2 drk and a RNG that can fire off barrage or can start skillchain with DRK at the fight start without fear or turning the monster off me.

If a ninja spends 50k+ a level to throw slow/para/blind ninjitsu, elementals and some stars along with blinking they hold hate fine and jobs like drk and rng dont have to hold back - it would be even easier if ninja has mermaid ring, nemesis/eris earrings.

PLD act like theres a million ninjas out there that put this much gil and effort into the job constantly stealing pt invites that a PLD would normally get. For every competent ninja tank past level 50, there are 20+ PLD - get over it already, NIN/WAR is never going to replace PLD for a majority of xp pts.

I think its funny how you mention the word ninja to most paladin, and they start swearing about ninja this and ninja that... do they teach PLD to hate us as a part of attaining knighthood? :confused:

[Sasarai]

Either that or maybe it's just because Jayblah doesn't have a number higher than 50 attached to his name.

[Dark-Cress]

War75/Nin37 :(

[Sanhime]

Originally posted by Navia
Nin dont need a THF to tank, maybe a crappy one that only uses utsusemi and provoke only... I group with 2 drk and a RNG that can fire off barrage or can start skillchain with DRK at the fight start without fear or turning the monster off me.

If a ninja spends 50k+ a level to throw slow/para/blind ninjitsu, elementals and some stars along with blinking they hold hate fine and jobs like drk and rng dont have to hold back - it would be even easier if ninja has mermaid ring, nemesis/eris earrings.

PLD act like theres a million ninjas out there that put this much gil and effort into the job constantly stealing pt invites that a PLD would normally get. For every competent ninja tank past level 50, there are 20+ PLD - get over it already, NIN/WAR is never going to replace PLD for a majority of xp pts.

I think its funny how you mention the word ninja to most paladin, and they start swearing about ninja this and ninja that... do they teach PLD to hate us as a part of attaining knighthood? :confused:


I dont think its is necessary to get into this subject any further. As it is said many many many times in other threads about the "nin tank vs pld tank" issues, it all boils down the PT makeup and the people's play style...as there is no "absolute" one-size-fits-all solution. The ideal PT for ninja (typical) is where the need to protect the mages becomes a less threatening issue ("typically" found in a 2 NIN PT setup), because NIN PTs 'tend' to have dispersed hate, rather than concentrated hate. Such that the ideal PT setup for PLD is usually very different (ie: 3melee, 3mage setup). PLD will excel in a set of situations, and so will NIN in a set of situations.

However, I think there are a number "tank" players (even worse, by people who dont play or are not seasoned tank players), PLD and NIN alike out there, who misunderstand and/or misconstrue notion of the "function" aspect and "operation" aspect of being a tank. These type of people tend to being one-size-fits-all thinkers, I have notice many people like that in the message borad. ie: NIN>PLD or PLD>NIN

Function being, what define's a "tank". To some people's surprise, tank is not just limited to how well you can take hit or make the mob miss you. It is also not just limited to how well you keep hate. Again and again, it all depends on communication and PT makeup.

This leads the the Operation aspect. What you do and/or what your PT members do to ensure sustained tanking on your part. For example, tanking at higher levels may require the assistance of other PT members to sustain your "Function". Again and again, it all depends on communication and PT makeup.

Theres no need to accidently end up in such squabble.

[sudo]

I liked the point someone else brought up eariler:

the game has 15 jobs, 14 of wich MUST pt to get anywhere.

2/14 possibly 3 = tanks = pld/nin/war

2/14 possibly 3 again = healers =whm/rdm/smn

3/14 = support for the pt = rdm/smn/brd

10/14 = damage dealing only types =sam/rng/blm/thf/war/drg/drk/mnk and I guess nin/not war = hitter too.


I find this to be really funny balance. We should all just drop the deal of who is better tank and try to get more tanks into the game so we'd have some more variety. In fact, make more healing type jobs too. There simply isn't any variety anymore. Either no pt cause of no pld or no pt cause of no whm is just dumb.

When there's over 14 ppl of the same lv lfg (and not in valkrum) cause one of the 2 is missing, there's some problems with balance in a game.

If square made another tank class, I don't know, uhh, "Shield knight" and um uh, another healer type, "Cleric." Where would people go complain about then? I've read most of the other job forums a bit and there's not as much animosity between jobs as pld vs nin.

Are there simply too many other jobs to hate (10 other jobs trying to get the same spot)? Maybe both nin and pld can go hate the next new tank job and then we'll all be happy.:spin:

[Voyager]

They wouldn't even have to make another dedicated tank. Monk already have enough to be tanks at lower levels, what with Dodge, and the defense boost it can get from subbing War. If Square were to add in some higher lvl abilities to help Monk tanking, that would open up more tanks fo the game.

Harry Voyager

[Sanhime]

Originally posted by Voyager
They wouldn't even have to make another dedicated tank. Monk already have enough to be tanks at lower levels, what with Dodge, and the defense boost it can get from subbing War. If Square were to add in some higher lvl abilities to help Monk tanking, that would open up more tanks fo the game.

Harry Voyager

if more jobs were given extra "tanking" abilities, it will only further diminish the role of "jobs". I would agree with you if you were referring to SE would give other melee jobs extra ability to absorb dmg better at higher lvls, but more other jobs "tanking" would only further blur roles of the jobs they were designed for. At low levels, most melee jobs can "tank" the a certain extent, but lets not get carried away here. All jobs (melee or mage), as you climb higher in levels, becomes more distinguish and specific, and rely on PT makeup. For your job in particular, monks at higher lvls are dmg dealers, and "that is that".

[JP_Ikari]

Whether or not a Ninja is meant to tank cause of Utsu by S-E is yet to be seen. The game is out for quite awhile now and they haven't done anything towards it. They did something about the TP accumilation, but not Utsu. Either way, read what TheBruce just said (btw, Spike is bad ass), it makes sense. I love being a PLD, and when I was told by my RL friend and my JPN friend that Ninjas are the best tankers in the game cause of Utsu, I was very reluctant at first, but when I stopped and started to realize, yes, they are, no matter how many ways you look at it, it's very true. But it doesn't stop some enemy WS's (especially the 1 hit ones) so that's probably 1 big reason why they also get Subtle blow. Again, why are they given this skill, we have yet to actually know. But 1 silenced Ninja= 1 dead ninja :D. 1 Silence PLD= 1 Warrior LOL j/k. And btw I'm not angry about Nin or Mnk getting subtle blow, but instead I'm happier since we won't see mobs do WS's for a bit at least :biggrin: .

Ikari

P.S. I don't know if this is true, but I'm hearing a rumor from a friend that they're going to nerf Utsu, I'm not really paying much attention to it, but if it is, I wonder what they'll do to it.

[sudo]

If they are going to nerf uts. then you would basically have a game revolving around a single class availability. The pld.

No one else would be able to tank very well at later levels as it is. And so all other party make ups would be rendered completely obsolite. The only tank available to all parties would be pld and thus the game would:

1) become incredibly predictable and boring
2) make everyone change into a pld and basically make thieves useless as melee
3) it would be very funny to add another melee class by converting ninja from tank role to melee and reduce tanks down to one
4) 20 ppl lfg, and all for the want of a pld. Game dynamics would be completely ruined

Whm can already be replaced in higher lv pt's by rdm and even blm/whm.

Pld wants to be the only job in the game?

[sudo]

and if such a thing would to happen, I don't think pld's would like it very much either.

Can you imagine how much more inflated the armor and weapon prices would become if the number of pld's increased by the extent that making only one tank job in the game? Instead of maybe 50 people needing that armor, 100 people will now need it.

skyrocketing inflation! lol

[Zymm]

i dont even know what subtle blow does, and was to lazy to find out in the thread since it was so long...personally i dont really care, b/c pld tanks are still in higher demand then in tanks

[JP_Ikari]

Originally posted by Zymm
i dont even know what subtle blow does, and was to lazy to find out in the thread since it was so long...personally i dont really care, b/c pld tanks are still in higher demand then in tanks


From what i've been hearing, it reduces TP accumulation by mobs, not sure how much but that's what i've been hearing.

As for "if PLD's only want us to be the only job?" I think you're taking this in a different direction. What I meant was, what will they do if they "DO" nerf it. Regardless if the ninja is willing to cough up the cash, then they can tank, but for you to say "equipment will sky rocket" I don't know if any of the high level paladins would agree with this, but any items that has tons of VIT and defense is also "expensive", if ninja's are willing to pay for Shihei's, we're willing to pay for armor.

[Rhayn]

I don't have a documented source yet for this info, but the last update was partially to balance the SAM and NIN jobs when used as a subjob. I know for a fact that SAM has been altered as a subjob (Meditate only returns 60% TP now when SAM is the subjob), and I'm told that Utsusemi has been adjusted as well. This change is only regarding NIN as a subjob. What I've been told it did was reduce the number of shadows created by Utsusemi: Ichi and Ni.

Basically, this was simply to fix any balance issues from this two subjobs. It is not uncommon to weaken job abilities when it is used as a subjob (for example, the trick/sneak attack multipliers are reduced), so reducing the effectiveness of these two abilities is also logical.

What did this change effectively do? It strengthened samurai (about damn time) and ninja as main jobs. It is true that they may not be as effective subjobs now, but in the case of a level 60 samurai compared to other lv60+ melees, any other job with samurai as support could meditate just as well (ignoring the 20% bonus from the AF helm) and often had more powerful weaponskills. I personally think this rebalance is a very positive thing for samurai and is just another step toward making samurai once again the masters of TP (reducing TP gain from multi-hit weaponskills was the first step).

In regard to Utsusemi, it was just plain too powerful as a support ability, in my opinion. If you have ever seen the solo ability of a lv74-75 rdm/nin, than you probably can understand what I mean. I guess the job that will probably be most upset by this change is war/nin. Ninja themselves probably will enjoy the change, since they'll no longer have as fierce Utsusemi competition at level 74+. Also, with the hinted release of San level ninjutsu in the next expansion, I have heard mention of Utsusemi: San requiring level 62. What exactly Utsusemi: San would do (how many shadows, cast time, what is absorbed, etc.) I don't know.

I'm not sure if with the release of San level ninjutsu there will be balancing of the lower level ninjutsu, but I would like to find out.

[JP_Ikari]

Cool, thanks Rhayn for clearing that out, glad that's settled hehe.

Ikari

[LionhartPLD]

Nin/Wars, (let me correct that: rich Ninjas) can be as effective or better tanks than a Paladin, especially for HNM Tanking, as can War/Nins.
It really depends what you're fighting. For certain HNM, NIN is a better tank. For instance Capricious Cassie NIN is good for tanking because they dont get hit much = cassie doesn't gain much tp = less bad breath. But you'll generally find that the strongest HNM require a PLD to tank (RuAun Gods, Kirin, King Behemoth, Nidhogg, etc. etc. etc.)