When does thf finally come into play?

[Maeghant de`Mue]

I am a post60 thf. I see nothing valuable coming from this job in the near future, yet I see an abundance of post60 JN thf's. I would like to know what is it that they know that I do not.

For example, any given day I can do a /sea all 65-70 thf and get, say, 13 finds. Followed by a /sea all 65-60 and get 140 hits. Something on the order of 10% of the population are thf's.

Is there a strong end-game role for the thf? In a raiding aspect, I can easily imagine a value behind a thf's hate control, but have seen no evidence that this is the case, it's purely hypothetical.

Many other classes seem to be able to sit tight with the knowledge that they provide a valuable asset to a party. Mana regen, healing, or high dmg output. A thf provides... none of these, but an imaginary 'hate control' aspect, which more often than not tends to balance out with increased risk to the PT as a whole or mana dumping on the 2ndary tank.

Unfortunately, creative use of jobs seem to have elimated any need for additional hate control. I have pt'd w/ nin's who have no need for ta/sa. I have pt'd w/ war/sam's who have no need for ta/sa. And of course, paladins completely eliminate our value in the same pt. Is our only purpose to supplement the poor aggro control of incompetant 'tanks'? Or do we actually have a value in this game.

Why do I continually feel as if the ta/sa nerf upon NA release still hinges entirely on the fact that paladins are utterly overpowered? Y'know, if S-E wants paladins to be the only functional tank in the game, they should really just get off the can and make it utterly apparent by now. Enough with this supposed hate control bs, warriors 'sufficing,' and a broken ninjitsu blink device.

S-E has the same decision to make that EQ did years and years ago, pre-evade, pre-sneak hide. They need to decide if rogues in this game are to provide support or melee and find a balance. The ta/sa nerf eliminated nearly all of our support capabilities and did not return any melee into our pocket.

Are thf's in this game really intended to be nothing more than gil machines? I certainly hope not. Day One upon subscribing to this I considered th, gil finder etc to be nothing more than gimicks. After all, anyone with the time to spend can overcome any mediocre percentile advantage in drops or gold.

When I bought this game, it seemed we had a fairly apparent value. We did little dmg, we had questionable ws's, we lack soloability, low hp, yet... we kept the hate on the MT. Seemed a fairly simply concept to me. I wonder how it's the job's fault that paladins are massively overpowered in their defense and ability to generate hate.

Maybe I complain too much. I do see an analogy to clerics in EQ in recent past who found themselves rather outdone by druids and shaman in small AA producing groups. If multiple classes can heal essentially as well and produce other beneficial results in an exp group, then there is no need for a cleric. On the other hand, many many clerics were still required end-game. Which again, brings me to my original question:

What am I missing?

Md'M

[Pandar]

lol I ask the same thing whats so great about thief >.>
besides making money i have enough

[SlipA]

" We did little dmg, we had questionable ws's, we lack soloability, low hp, yet... we kept the hate on the MT"

Thieves do great damage, even into the 60's. They are probably the most damaging melee from 15-50~ imo. As for questionable WS....are you really a thief? Thief gets the best WS up to the mid 60's for party play (combined with SATA of course) Distortion is the most wanted skillchain, and guess who finishes it best, without a doubt.

"What am I missing?"

Well, thieves did, in a sense get shafted. But really, they are the most selfish class in the game, I mean c'mon, they're thieves. Ever try to go coffer hunt in castle oztroja as a non-thf? After spending 19 hours hunting my coffer key, not even counting the time spent begging in jeuno (which theives dont have to do), I spent another 4 hours trying to find a freaking coffer because half the spawn points had a thief sitting there. I check the price history of astral rings and guess whose names i see...
I'm considering bringing my thief from 39 up to 60 just to camp those damn coffers.

The more party friendly, the less solo capable, thats the fair way to do things imo. Look at bards, whms, blms, they are all very slow gil makers solo, but always wanted in parties. Melees are much faster gil makers, but suck for invites. Rdm is lucky both ways i guess, but still take forever to kill stuff. Thieves get unique solo skills. Why take it for granted and have such a need to be THE needed melee class at all stages in the game?

I can't tell if your main issue is that paladins are too strong or thieves are too weak? Post 60, plds really have a hard time holding hate imo. I'd say trick attack is really needed or else monks and drks get hit, and hit a lot.

Also, go check out the paladin board if you think they are the only tank class in the game. They are moaning about how paladins are just replacements if the other parties can't find a blink tank. They are also complaining that 2 thief and 2 ninja alternate trick attacking is more wanted for HNM than them, and take 0 dmg.
At least being wanted for certain HNM situations is not bad for a thief.

[PhoR]

Thieves get unique solo skills.

rofl. thf is probably THE single most worthless solo class in the game. coffer hunting, sure. but don't even attempt to try to kill anything, even 10 levels below you. And even then you'll be flirting with death very quickly. When soloing, we can only sneak attack once.. trick attack is worthless.. and our dmg is ABISMAL without sneak and trick. (and even then you have to fight something only sight aggro to even be able to get 1 sneak attack off)

As far as treasure hunter, sure people want that when they're searching for items for quests or missions, but they don't seem to want it when they're not (ie, exp parties) so how the heck are we supposed to level?


I agree totally with you on this one Maeghant de`Mue... In fact, I have sent square a couple suggestions on how they could make changes so that we could actually control hate again (such as making trick attack function like sneak.. in that it always hits and crits when used alone). The fact is, when they nerfed yokodama, they turned us into a half-ass dmg dealing class that has to have one of only a couple party setups to function properly. Not only that, but we have to rely on every single one of our party members to know exactly what they're doing, or else we automatically suck. (no matter how good you are, if the tanks are moving or a mage pulls aggro, not only are you not controlling hate, but you're doing less dmg than the pld.) And I think that sucks.

by the way, I asked a bunch of 65+ thf on my server, and almost 70% of them were already 60+ when yokodama was nerfed. What does that mean? It means that a hate controlling thf is good for party dynamics, and a half-ass dmg dealing thf isn't.

God I hope they do something soon, i'm tired of whining about it :biggrin:

[SlipA]

solo skills i was referring to didnt mean killing monsters. Who cares about killing it when u can steal, hide, flee, whatever :cool: . Anyways, I think thief is a great class, and in a good party, a lot more fun to play than most other melee jobs. Also, they are pretty much the only class that gets to dual wield and utsesumi effectively without being forced to tank. Dual wielding is pretty cool, u know it :p All in all, maybe not the best class, but definitely better than most melees. Maybe if they nerf plds hate building ability, and nerf SATA + spinslash, thieves will no longer have anything to complain about?

[sudo]

highly doubtful if SE cares at all for the thf job anymore. The recent patches are all concentrating on making other melees better.

drg is getting fixed in a HUGE way with the new patch
and what is all this subtle blow thing?? making nin and mnk buffer too...

Just seems like there's nothing new for the thieves...(well at least we didn't get nerfed even further...)

but in a way, if they make the other melees better then thieves would suck even more in comparison wouldn't we ?

so why get a thf when that mnk gets subtle blow!?

sooooo hard to get to 45.... I think I might just give up thf after TH2... wasting so much time lfg as it is...

[Stanislav]

I have a thief in 90% of my parties, Viper Bite, Dancing Edge and Shark Bite (very powerful) are very strong. Thief does the strong Light skillchain without getting killed (Ranger can do just as powerful but 50% of the time they experience death!)

Thief are for hate transfer and high WS dmg. Their normal hits may be low but thief probably has the first or second strongest WS (considering you use SATA)

Personally if I could stand the first 15 levels (my thief is 7) then I would level my thief to atleast 61 and get decent gear then use it to farm stuff faster.

[Taoist]

Every job has it's problems. But, I'd never think THF would get much trouble to LV because of their capability to end a renkei.

But, more importantly.

GIL GIL GIL GIL GIL GIL!!!

I am currently raising a THF right now because of my desire to buy things. Funny thing is, when I used my MNK to kill Lizzy, I got nothing but a lizard skin. But, right when I kill it with a LV12 THF (no TH) it drops. This has nothing to do with the topic but THF is lucky imo. Maybe the LV factor had something to do with it. Anyways money is almost never an issue for THF's especially my THF friend who already has TH3... lucky.

[Maeghant de`Mue]

First of all, I don't want to second guess the upcoming changes to the nin and mnk jobs w/ subtle blow. I don't think anyone knows what that will entail. I do find it strange that two dual wield classes are getting a change and thf's very often sub one, if not both, of them in the course of their careers. If the change is drastic, there could perhaps be a massive abandoning of /nin for thf's.

I've read it could be a potential hate nerf for nin's to a reduction of TP gain by mobs from getting hit by dual wield classes. It's extremely difficult to guess the outcome. I am in no way suggesting that this will hurt thf's, I don't think S-E would bother to do that at this point, but it's a matter of faith by now. If it hurts nin's, this can't be good for us, as they are the only tank class which seems popular and effective in a party with us at the moment (post60 pt's).

SlipA, you made some good points, but there is one that I tried to make which may have been unclear. If any person intends to play this game for any length of time, gilfinder and treasure hunter abilities are meaningless. Any mild percentile gain in drop rates can be overcome with time spent and dedication. That is why those abilities are so useless.

Take, for example, the multitude of other jobs who can solo NM's far beyond the reach of a thf at a much earlier level. Yes, we might be able to force the drop, but we also require an additional 5+ levels on top of any paladin etc who happens to roam by. How does increased competition for what we can barely kill reward us? Yes, I can slaughter half the number of level 20 beastmen as any other job and get the same amount of gil, but the standard job can kill twice as many due to lessened downtime created by any number of methods.

The bottomline is, if you base thf balance upon the fact they obtain gil quicker, a thf will never fit into a decent balanced party system. All in all, I would give up all ability to solo if I was able to place massive hate once again upon a main tank, simple as that. I would give up all of my trash gilfinder and th abilities. I didn't create a thf to make money, I made it because it seemed to fit very well upon NA release inside a party.

I do not solo well. Low defense, low vitality, low hitpoints, low dmg output, no ability to self heal with a standard job. I figure this all balances fairly well with gilfinder and th which tosses me an extra pair of studded boots every now and then. Trading this off for low value to a party, or an extremely limited and specific party, simply isn't worth it. Th does work, it's nice, but I've already paid the price for having it.

All said and done, you have your tanks, you have your support, and you have your dmg dealers. A thf still fits in none of those catagories because, surprise surprise, we aren't proficient in any of them any longer. We already have major shortcomings as a solo class, shouldn't that equate into value as a party class? Apparently not, as I watch a rdm with the best debuffs in the game + refresh + dispell solo Ose.

Md`M

[PhoR]

Every job has it's problems. But, I'd never think THF would get much trouble to LV because of their capability to end a renkei.
Well you would be wrong. simply because of the stupid fact that for this to work with an ounce of reliability, you'd have to have two tanks in your party.. which seriously degrades party dynamics, and doesn't happen very often in practice at all.

why do i say it's unreliable without two tanks?
there are only 2 ways in which you can do a renkei AND put the hate on the tank. a) at the very beginning of the fight. b) if a melee standing opposite the tank pulls aggro with his ws.

neither of these ways can be done on a regular basis. Because if you hold your tp till the next fight as thf, you're wasting it, since thf ws do the same dmg with 100 or 300 tp. Secondly, the way hate works, there's no telling if the second melee will be able to turn the mob or not. It's almost a random chance. And even the idea of "turning the mob away from the tank on purpose" defeats the whole party dynamic of having a tank in the first place.

Square totally screwed up the way the thf class works when they nerfed sneak attack. I just hope they do something about it soon. I'm about to change jobs too.


(on a side note, today i did a /sea all thf 40-75 and got 57 hits. about half were not in parties, the other half were seeking. there were only 4 thf's above lvl 40 that were actually in an exp party.)

[SlipA]

So ok, assuming the class is indeed in need of a fix, whats the proposal? Returning to old yokodama is not the best way imo. Being able to yokodama sounds to me like every party would want a ninja tank and a thief doing blade:chi / rin > Viper bite with 4 mages. Maybe an exaggeration, but there's really no need for another melee, which is already a problem in the game with 4/5 of the lfg list being drg, sam, drk, monk.

If you picked the class pre-nerf, than i can certainly understand being angry and disappointed that it is no longer an indispensable party member. But really, thief parties do tend to go better than non-thief parties still. Provoke does almost nothing post-60 it seems >< .

Maybe boosting dagger WS so that they do good damage without sneak attack, so they can straight viper bite from behind the tank would help. At the same time, they'd have to nerf the amount of boost that SA adds to a WS, so there's no SA + TA stacking doing 2000 dmg dancing edges. This would help thieves solo also, since more WS damage without sneak attack.

But then that takes away the fun of the class, which is to stack SA + TA to see those big numbers and watch the monster spin around looking real pissed. Sneak attack by itself is not that exciting :p

[Ljarin]

Originally posted by PhoR
why do i say it's unreliable without two tanks?
there are only 2 ways in which you can do a renkei AND put the hate on the tank. a) at the very beginning of the fight. b) if a melee standing opposite the tank pulls aggro with his ws.

neither of these ways can be done on a regular basis. Because if you hold your tp till the next fight as thf, you're wasting it, since thf ws do the same dmg with 100 or 300 tp.


a) happens every fight if you have a secondary tank that has any brains whatsoever. b) can be done frequently with careful planning.

a) can be done not on a regular basis but in every single fight. Sorry but you don't know what you are talking about if you believe otherwise.


All thf ws do not do the same damage with 100%-300% TP. Viper bite does, Dancing Edge and Shark Bite you will see better damage with higher TP (Dancing because you will see more hits with higher TP therefore higher dmg, wheras Shark Bite gets an insane amount damage bonus from 300% TP compared to 100%.


And using TP just because you have it is wasteful, saving your TP to renki at the start of the next pull is not wasteful.

[PhoR]

well assuming they will not return yokodama. which is pretty much a given.

I think there's only one real "idea" that could fix trick attack:

1) make it always hit like sneak attack. (I don't see any reason why this would overpower anything, you could still stack sneak and trick if you wanted to, and get the same results you get now)

But making it always hit would not be enough, because what kind of hate are you going to transfer by doing 80 dmg? (answer: hardly any) That's where 2 comes in.

2) make trick attack have some sort of built in provoke. What do I mean by that? I mean don't base the hate transfer on the dmg you do with it, but instead base it on a certain stat maybe.

not only would changing it this way make it possible for a thief to actually be a hate controller again, it would also pull us out of the "if your trick buddy messes up, or if your party doesn't line up correctly, you might as well be afk, because you're worthless" hell hole that square has dug for us.

And if you think about it, this is VERY feasible, and fairly easy for them to impliment. It would not overpower thief as a melee job, because if you wanted to do sneak and trick seperately, you'd be giving up damage in order to do so. However, if you wanted to see the big numbers your accustomed to, you'd be giving up the hate control. (whereas with yokodama, you could get both big numbers, AND put that hate on the tank at the same time) Pretty balanced in my opinion.


If you could think of any cons, I''d love to hear them.

what do you think?




p.s.
a) happens every fight if you have a secondary tank that has any brains whatsoever. b) can be done frequently with careful planning.
my arguement is that you HAVE to have a secondary tank in the first place. and not only that, but if he sucks, HE MAKES YOU SUCK.
And I think that is just absurd.
Ljarin, can you seriously tell me that you think square meant for thief to only be able to put hate on the tank at the beginning of the battle? I personally think that this phenomenon was an accidental side effect of their sneak attack nerf (which was a good nerf that needed to be done in my opinion). and that square just didn't think about the consequences of that nerf to hate control. But to each his own.
comments?

[SlipA]

The implementations you suggested are good, especially the built-in voke on trick attack. But I really think if thieves got it, they'd be unhappy with it. Why? They will still SATA +WS onto a subtank, and he gets even more hate than before with the new provoke effect. You might argue that there is no need to since now TA is guaranteed hit, but that's pretty much the case if you use viperbite or dancing edge anyway, at least some of the hits will connect. And no thief i've ever partied with does TA + Viperbite, with no SA. I suppose maybe they could just do SA + WS, then do TA separately, but I doubt they would like that much.

Another idea that I think would be cool, is to have a new Job Ability of Mirror Image, where you can form a false image of yourself projected directly opposite the place where you stand, with the axis of symmetry being the monster. Any actions you do are performed by the mirror. That way, you can trick from behind subtank and it looks as though it came from behind main tank. Maybe a 5 minute timer and a 15 second duration would work for this. Maybe a lv45 JA.

Too bad this ability really belongs to ninjas more than thieves.

[PhoR]

I also thought about a mirror image thing as well, but I think this would be hard for them to impliment. (changing a formula for hate placement based on a stat instead of dmg would be an easy fix, whereas putting in a whole new ability would be time consuming, and programming intensive.)
not to mention they'd have to be really careful in how they implimented it so that it could not be exploited while soloing.

This is why I think the "trick always hits and places hate based on a stat" idea is the best idea. Easy to impliment, and no overpowering/exploitable consequences.

I've already sent square a few suggestions about putting this "fix" in.. and i encourage everyone else to do the same.
To send a suggestion:
1) open up playonline
2) from the main menu go to service and support
3) from there goto support
4) then email support
5) and finally comments and suggestions.
If square can see that enough people desire a change like this, it would be very feasible for them to put it in.

/em crosses his fingers and waits.

[Taoist]

Ending a renkei w/ THF is not as hard as you say. It's been executed countless times when there was a THF in my party. For example, assuming that the PLD or WAR would tank main, during the fight a SAM/WAR would use THIRD EYE and provoke the mob and then use Tachi: Enpi while the THF hides behind the MT and unleashes fuidama + WS unleashing a huge Distortion chain for the BLM to MB on.

This was only 1 example of the many possible. Even I, a monk, have served as a dummy for fuidama to be layed upon the mob. Like someone said earlier, the hate aggro that Trick Attack gives was "nerfed" meaning it is only temporary or rather weak so a competent MT would be able to get the hate off rather easily. At least from what I've experienced, this is the case.

But really, come now... GIL!

[Meowmix]

make that 2 suggestions sent PhoR. ^.^

[Viktoria]

I dunno...I guess I don't see much of a problem because my view is limited from the perspective of my static party. I trick on the paladin at the start of the battle, then after that, on the dragoon who can shed hate. It's also easy to pull off a renkei this way with myself on the end.

[PhoR]

Taoist. What you are suggesting, in principal, goes against everything "hate control" stands for.
Think about it. As a support/hate control class, you want to ensure the tank holds aggro during the entire fight, in order for your party to recieve the least amount of damage. Now, what you are suggesting, is that the tank PURPOSELY loses aggro, in order for you to stack more hate onto him. This is completely backwards from how any MMORPG party dynamic functions. Why would you purposely want the tank to lose aggro?

All i'm trying to say is, I started playing thief when we were a hate control class. The sneak attack nerf changed our whole party dynamic. (and I don't know if you agree with me, but I really don't think they meant for the sneak attack change to change a thief's main purpose in a party)

So what's wrong with wanting Square to make a small change that would allow us to play thief as hate controller again?
The changes I suggested would NOT change your gameplay in any way if you wanted to keep using fuidama like you do now. They would simply allow us to play as the hate control support class that thief started out as.

p.s. Viktoria - I envy you.

comments?

[Taoist]

The party dynamics haven't changed at all:

1. The main tank is always main tank.
2. Taoist <~ only used as a dummy tank for SA/TA.

What I am trying to say is, yes, you THF's have lost the *absolute* control over aggro and hate. But, the damage output has not been. About regaining your most desired hate control; I have no suggestions or comments that would be helpful even in the slightest bit. However, Distortion still needs an end and you supply it. Gil needs to be farmed, and THF's are able of that as well. Treasure needs to be found and once again, THF's supply that.

Now, please, think about the money.
Taoist <~ Greedy.

[PhoR]

that's just wrong Taoist.
The party dynamics for a thief have COMPLETELY changed:

1) before sneak attack nerf - thief could deal good damage, and ALWAYS place all that hate ON the tank. (hate controller)

2) after sneak attack nerf - after the initial santa, in order to do any damage whatsoever, we actually have to pull hate OFF the tank. (simple dmg dealer)

how is that in the least bit the same dynamics?

My suggestions would simply make using trick attack by itsself a viable option for added hate control.

by the way, if you don't think this is a problem, (which obviously you don't, or you wouldn't still be argueing with me)

do /sea all thief 50-75 on your server, and look at the number of thieves in an exp party, compared to the number of thieves seeking party, and the number not in a party.
On my server, the ratio is absolutely staggering. (over 3X more seeking than in an exp party, and over 12X more not partied than in a party)
Why is this becomming a trend? Because parties are realizing that thieves are simply dmg dealers now. And other classes can deal the same amount of dmg with less hassle, AND bring other abilities to the group at the same time.

comments?



Gil needs to be farmed, and THF's are able of that as well. Treasure needs to be found and once again, THF's supply that.
Tell me the last time you said to yourself "we need a 6th member for our exp party, let's get a thief for treasure hunter!"
While treasure hunter and gil finder is good for finding items and farming gil.. you don't farm gil or hunt for items while in an exp party, so how are we supposed to level?
Treasure hunter and gil finder are mearly novelties in an exp party.

[SlipA]

Well, i did the /sea all 50-75 like you mentioned, and this is what i came up with at 1:40 pst.

Granted this is a very small sample, so it's hardly conclusive.

Total THF = 24
THF in party = 11 (2 of which were group leaders)
THF lfg = 6

---------------------------
Compared to a few other melees:

Total SAM = 12
SAM in party = 8 (4 of which were group leaders)
SAM lfg = 2

Total DRG = 13
DRG in party = 4 (3 of which were group leaders)
DRG lfg = 5

Total MNK = 13
MNK in party = 3 (1 of which was a group leader)
MNK lfg = 2

Total DRK = 33
DRK in party = 14 (4 of which were group leaders)
DRK lfg = 6


So, just taking this very small cross section it would appear that my server has A) way too many DRKs, and B) If anyone is having problems getting groups, its dragoon, not thief.


Maybe i'll try taking more samples later, if i'm not too lazy:zzz:

[Taoist]

I guess so, but then you have to think of every other DMG class and see why no one wants them. Really it's due the abundance of them.

Don't be afraid to join the majority although yes it sucks pretty bad.

My only conclusion to why people would want THF's in their party is because we need people to hunt those coffer keys and ancient papyrus with them. So, in order for THF's to be helpful we need to LV with them. It's not that parties are giving some sort of charity to THF's, but sometimes people prefer them for renkei's. It's a mutual benefit.


Tell me the last time you said to yourself "we need a 6th member for our exp party, let's get a thief for treasure hunter!"

The answer is last night. I am a person who likes to kill 2 birds w/ one stone. To explain, the reason is simple.
I want exp.
I want money.

THF's are the solution. More profitable items drop off of Exorays such as Dark Crystals. I have gotten at least 2 stacks of them per hour and several shrooms and other items. I am getting the benefit of TH and the DMG capability of THF.

Now, the solution to the *total hate control* problem is beyond me. I guess you want a purpose to being in an EXP party like the vital roles RDM,BLM,WHM,NIN, or PLD have. I don't have much insight to give except maybe if you whine enough to Square, they might *fix* it. Other than that, beats me.

[PhoR]

ya i know taoist.. and that's what i'm gonna do!
whine whine whine. haha.

by the way, I left my party flag up for an entire day while i was away, with a good search comment.. just to see how many party invites i would get. 18 hours later... 1 invite.

:/ i hope this is just not a trend on my server.

[John Doe III]

Alright, my 2 cents.

Thief is there for Hate Control 60 and above 30. Below 30 it's just getting past those shitty crabs and dumb gobs with sneak. After 60 it's all about the hate control...not damage dealing. About 90% of your time as a thief should be doing hate control, becuase your basically the only job that can do this well (very well in fact). Yes, I know DRK's can do damage and hate control, but it's not as good as a THF.

Originally posted by Taoist
My only conclusion to why people would want THF's in their party is because we need people to hunt those coffer keys and ancient papyrus with them. So, in order for THF's to be helpful we need to LV with them. It's not that parties are giving some sort of charity to THF's, but sometimes people prefer them for renkei's. It's a mutual benefit.

Anyways, THF's shouldn't be just invited to parties to make exp and money at the same time..that's kind of selfish on part of the leader. Also, yes they can help with coffer keys and hunt for drops which is very nice and all. Thief's are also there for quick kills if possible. As you see on many mobs, one Renkei could kill the mob very fast with MB.

1) before sneak attack nerf - thief could deal good damage, and ALWAYS place all that hate ON the tank. (hate controller)

With Yokodoma...THF was a god. You could have 2 THF's in a PT and a ninja and get 5k exp an hour. But that's in the past and ..crap happens. This is why every THF must play their role and play it well if they want to really become a Thief (シーフ). Because your main role is for Hate Control onto the main tank, and to keep it there, you must boost all the stats you need to do that (Of course DEX and AGI). Now if your party doesn't know the abilites of a Thief and dont know what to do...tell them. Going off topic..i'll continue.

What am I missing?

RICH = THIEF! :)

The main abilities help thief so much you can't believe it. Although, there main role in a PT is mainly for a simple Hate Control onto the Main Tank after pull or after a Renkei, they can sure make a ton of money. So, while all the other jobs get into BCNM's, try and hunt a HNM, or go Tiger hunting for a few hours, your laying back making twice as much money as them. You getting TH2, Steal (Most important), Hide, Flee, and Steal Gil..for very little it does steal.

BCNM = 300k Each time a full PT does it, except for 30.

HNM = Could be a million depending on if you get the drop.

Tiger Fangs = 9k an hour.

Stealing Gold Coins (Full stack?) = 90k for about 2 hours depending on where you are.

Coffer hunting in the place that your making 90k? = 7-14k per pop as well as many items (oz = astral ring for 200 or so k).

And getting twice or double the drop rate of most of the monsters you kill? = Priceless

Really in a day, if you tried and did nothing but farm you could make about 250k-300k off the top of my head, maybe more.

So...if Thieves are worthless I must be missing something..maybe going Mnk/Sam will be better and get more invites.

[PhoR]

john, other than the initial fui onto the tank (in which you have to have a second voker) how do you control hate?

Because having to pull hate off the tank in order to do another fui onto him is NOT hate control. nor is doing fui on another player after that just for the damage(and pulling hate off the tank).

Have you participated in EF? Trick attack is worthless in all the EF i've been on (the only reason i got invited was to flee mobs away so the ef can pick off one at a time.. but any ef over 50 cap, this can be done better by anyone with thf sub)

I just think that after the sneak nerf, people think it is too much of a hassle to party with thief if they dont' have to (unless they want items, but this doesn't help us get in exp parties)
And I agree with those people. Having a thief in your party DOES add more hassle than any other dmg dealer. (although if executed properly, we're not any less effective at dealing dmg...
but if it's NOT executed properly, trick attack is worthless, and becomes a third rate dmg dealer, not because the thief is incompetent, but because someone in the party may be.)
All my suggestion would do is allow us to still function decently in a bad party.

One thing that really hurts us though is if we dont' have a second voke or second tank in our party, our hate control dwindles to just about nill, and also our dmg output is halved, or worse (unless you want to start doing fui on someone who is not the tank, which will not help the party in the long run). And I think that's bs. Since we can no longer stack sneak and trick if there is only one provoke, Square needs to give us a way of using trick by itsself.

If you know something about being a "hate controller" in a party that I don't know, by all means let's hear it. But you'd be the first out of 50 I've talked to that knew of a reliable way to stack hate on the tank after the first fui.

comments?



ps. slip, how many of those grouped thieves were actually in exp parties? sure there were plenty of 50+ thieves that were partied on my server, but almost 50% of them said they were item hunting, not getting exp, so i didn't count them in the "partied" group.

[Starcrossed]

Well, thieves do have some function in party.

Please remember in the context of hate control that every point of hate earned by the front rank equals chain casting that can be done by the mages without worrying about the mob turning.

I try to think of it like this:
Thief puts 500 damage onto main tank.
Each person in the back can now heal or nuke for 500 without turning the mob.

It doesn't matter if the 500 damage is on the main tank or the secondary tank, the important thing is that it is NOT on the mages. I know this is a bit of a simplification because hate does go down over time.

Thief second function is big renkei damage. Yes, after level 60 the other damage dealers drg and drk can do the same type of thing with their weapon skills and superior weapons, but thieves can do it the rest of the game up to that point, and after 60 thieves have dancing edge which pretty much puts them on par with those other damage jobs so they aren't losing out much. Also, look at it this way, if you have a thief in your party, your drk could sub something else, notably samurai, since you will handle the hate control he can focus even more on doing what he does best rather than having to do hate control.

I was kind of miffed last night, from 50-60 thieves are pretty low in terms of damage. Drk and Drg will get their big hitting WS and can stack it with sneak attack. Last night I was doing fuidamage for 500, and then this crappy dragoon/thief walks up and does sneak/penta for 780 damage making me look useless. Of course, once we actually fought ITs he was doing 200 and I was still doing 500. :P Once I get triple attack and dancing edge, revenge will be mine ^^

Although thieves may suck at soloing in combat, they can farm more efficiently than anyone else, and as pointed out, you can steal some hella mighty things to sell, or be a coffer whore as you choose. I'm just passing level 50 now and seeing the potential with steal and in camping chests and coffers, so tonight I level up my white mage for sneak/invis!

It would be nicer if we could generate all our hate ONLY onto the main tank, but it sort of unbalances the party roles a bit allowing you to form parties like:

Paladin (with great sword)
Thief
Black Mage
Black Mage
Black Mage
White Mage

Paladin says, "Ok, ready?"
Thief, "Yes."
Paladin says, "Power slash!" *does power slash* (100 damage)
Thief says, "Viper Bite!" *does yokodama onto paladin* (500 dam)
*funky distortion* (200 dam)
Black mage chorus: "FREEZE FREEZE FREEZE!"
*orgy of icy death*
Magic burst! 1058 damage
Magic burst! 1005 damage
Magic burst! 1027 damage
White Mage says, "Dudes why am I even here? it's dead already."

Indeed, replace the white mage with a bard or red mage, and this would be the most lethal party ever. So its kind of sad you can't do this anymore, but it is slightly more fair. It seems a bit unfair to kill level 50 mobs in 16 seconds or less. (the casting time for freeze)

Streak

EDIT:
There's a post in the main forum discussing someone who watched a group of 5 BLM and 1 BRD do exactly this, except without magic bursting. So I guess it does exist :)

[PhoR]

you guys are not reading, and just posting stuff everyone already knows.

It doesn't matter if the 500 damage is on the main tank or the secondary tank, the important thing is that it is NOT on the mages. I know this is a bit of a simplification because hate does go down over time.

can't you see that's a problem? what other class FORCES you to have two tanks? (answer: there isn't one)

and you keep bringing up "thieves can make money".. well those abilities are next to worthless as far as someone choosing to get a theif for an exp party. There are VERY few times when exp mobs actually have items your party needs or any good amount of gil whatsoever.

Why trick attack needs to be changed:
Without a second tank or provoker.. a thief's ability to control hate is reduced to nill. that AND his damage output is more than halved. ie.. he is worthless (this also includes if you have 1 idiot in your group that refuses to line up correctly.. and why should we be punished that harshly from some other player's lack of intelligence?)




Example:
EF mobs have an ability that allows them to occasionally shed hate from a provoke. If it starts bouncing around, there is 0 possibility that i'm going to get a sneak or trick attack off whatsoever. In order to connect with sneak attack, someone already has to have aggro. In order to use trick attack, someone already has to have aggro AND I have to have a tank behind the mob.

the way you guys describe it, thief is nothing more than a circumstantial hate controller and dmg dealer. In order to control hate and deal any dmg, there has to be certain circumstances, such as: you must have a second tank, someone must already have aggro, and be holding it for a short time, everyone must line up correctly... etc etc.
And if these required circumstances aren't met, not only can we not control hate, but our dmg output sucks. You don't think we need more options? I do. And changing trick attack would give us those options.

[Starcrossed]

Yeah, to use trick/sneak the *most* efficiently does require you to have two tanks. Thieves are very necessary in any parties without a paladin, even as they are now. Provoke alone cannot hold aggro. There's nothing wrong with parties with two tanks, one usually holds aggro about 75% of the time, the other has it 25% of the time. The entire point of fuidama is to allow mages to cast their spells at full speed without having to manage their own hate nearly as much. Indirectly, the mob dies faster, no mages take any hits, plus the thief adds a good chunk of damage themselves. Sounds like a decent theory actually. However, you don't NEED two tanks.

You can use sneak/trick when there is only one tank, it's what I frequently do when I'm in a party not getting experience but simply questing or farming. It doesn't really do any less damage, but it is slightly less effective hate control. It's also more work for the thief and less work for the party which is what I need when I'm running around casually in a quest party.

Use trick+weapon skill on the tank while he is tanking. Trick attack works from the front no problem. Usually deals around 250 damage. Then walk around the rear of the mob and do a plain old fashioned sneak attack. You'll do another another 200 damage. Hell, if you're a thief/samurai with meditate, you can put a weapon skill on each one and use dancing edge+meditate and tp store to have a WS ready every 30 seconds.

The net effect is the main tank gets a bunch of hate, you also get some, but not very much in comparison. I don't really believe that sneak/trick multiply off eachother, I believe they add together, so that if you do them seperately you will do comparable overall damage. It's not the same hate as putting 500 damage on the main tank, but if you only HAVE one tank, trick attack+ws and the tanks provoke should be decent.

Thieves do depend a lot more on circumstance than any other job. No other job has to worry about where they are standing during combat, or worry about the mob or other players moving. It's a class that relies heavily on placement and strategy, and nerf or not, that has always been the same. If you want to hate control, be a paladin, if you want to deal damage, be a dark knight. If you're a thief, you can fill both roles at the same time for your party.

It is rare that a thief is invited to party directly for their gilmaking abilities, but a thief with those abilities comes substantially better equipped as a result of the excess gil and that in itself can make them valuable. I've heard a whm brag how they did BCNM for a few weeks and now have 300k in equipment on them. I've NEVER been BCNM or sold any drops from high-cost NMs, but my gear is worth closer to 400k anyways.

I'm sorry you pine for the old days of Yokodama, I gave a pretty specific example of why it could be a problem. I played during those days too, but was too low level to have trick attack yet. I did start a thief very excited about yokodama so I was quite sad when it was removed before I could ever use it. I retired my thief for over 3 monthes because I felt the way you did, and more so that no sane leader would ever invite a thief to their party as a result. Recently I've come back to the job, seen a bit more what the end-game looks like for thief and decided it may be worth the climb after all.

Like come on, sneak/trick/dancing edge with a chance at 15 hits? How cool is that. :)

[PhoR]

I don't really believe that sneak/trick multiply off eachother, I believe they add together, so that if you do them seperately you will do comparable overall damage.

I think you're right. BUT if trick doesn't crit, (which it doesn't 9/10 times for me if i use it seperately) that without stacking them, you lose out on 100+ dmg by doing them seperately. (because stacking them makes trick always crit.) So not only does using them seperately do less dmg, AND put alot less hate on the tank, if you don't have ws ready, your trick attack won't even hit most of the time.

/sigh.