Help Understanding the Concept behind THF abilities.

[Shaftaru]

Now, I'm a level 23 THF as you can see from my information. I have my subjob as a MNK and I use hand-to-hand weapons. Daggers really don't compare to my Baghnakhs at this level. I was wondering at what level should I turn to daggers? Should I wait until I am eligible to learn viper bite?
Also, sneak attack and trick attack. I understand that when I use sneak attack I do massive damage to whatever monster I am fighting. When I join into skillchains I can do even more of this beautiful damage. Trick attack however, confuses me to no end. I hear that it is only for hate control. So, that means that since you're behind the tank you can transfer a great deal of hate to the tank. Now, to do this I have to have the back up tank position on the opposite side of the tank to pull off them for a moment while I use it? And how do I incorporate this into a skillchain which can essentially change the direction of the mob at any moment. And also, doesn't this make trick attack completely dependent on the competence of the tanks in the party?
Does trick attack not add to damage at all? These are just some questions that I've been pondering for quite some time as I've been leveling my thief.
Thanks.
-THE Shaftaru.

[Meowmix]

i had thf/mnk as well and i used sword for sneak+fast until 25-30, then i went and leveled a parry dagger for a few hours up to 50-60, and went to use both weapons in Kazham (with parties permission) to keep them both capped. it worked very well and fast too. i never touched dagger before level 25+

about trick attack, well, basically you have two people who can provoke or keep good hate, wether they are two blink tanks, or two pld's it doesn't matter. usually pld and someone with sub for provoke. anyways. let's say you pull a bat and your runnin back to camp the 2nd tank provokes it and you all get into position (you behind 1st tank) with mob facing 2nd tank. you will have to be quick about it too, sometimes whm throwing cures and blm or rng doing good dmg right off the bat will take it off 2nd tank. but yeah you hit and then switch to other side immediatly or if there is another THF then they do their thing. or in any order really, as long as 1st tank has the most hate (usually the hardest hitting THF gets behind 1st tank.

*winded*

i'm not the best at explaining things but i hope it helps =)

EDIT: oh and about SATA/VB dmg.....yes the dmg all adds and stacks together.

+DEX for SA....+AGI for TA....ATK,STR for VB? but yeah

[_11of8]

Try to keep your dagger level maxed. Once you learn trick attack at 33, you won't be using sword or h2h very much. Keep a good H2H weapon on you though, as you may level on skeletons, which are very strong against slashing weapons. Having good h2h helps in those situations, so you may want to keep it up as much as you can, though you'll be doing that solo.

Dex adds to Sneak attack, while Agi stacks to Trick attack. STR adds to the damage, as do + attack, but focus on AGI/DEX and eat mithkabobs for the extra strenght and attack bonus. It's the best food to use for your buck.

As for the purpose of fuidama (Sneak/Trick Attack), it varies with the party. If you have a good tank, you can fuidama on them at the begining and hate should stick to them so that you can cut loose behind your secondary melee. You may have trouble doing that at the lower levels though.

If the main tank can't keep hate well, then you'll be using fuidama to keep the hate on the main tank. If you don't have a main tank, either wait for a party that has one, or spread them out between the two other melees as best you can. Those parties require some fancy footwork though. Better to have one of them eat fishkabobs or some crab for defense, then fuidama behind them and just be hate control.

As for pulling, there are two ways: Thief pulls, or 2nd Melee pulls.

If you are pulling, have the secondary melee stand between the mages and the main tank and in a straight line. When you pull the monster, run right next to them and the second melee will provoke it. At this point, you'll run around to the tank and fuidama behind him.

If someone else is pulling, Have the main tank stand between you and the monster. The puller will run by you far enough for the monster to pass the main tank. At that point, the tank will run up behind the monster, and you fuidama behind him/her.

Learn when to use the * key to lock onto your monster. It helps a lot for fuidama lineup. Also, use Alt + J to keep track of your sneak/trick attack abilities so you know how long until you can use them again.

Also, I might recomend leveling at least warrior as a secondary sub. Most high lvl thiefs have warrior or ninja subbed, though having monk, warrior, and ninja leveled is best as each is needed for different situations.

[ichnob]

*legend: M- main tank, T-Thief, \/ or /\ - direction the monster is facing, S-secondary tank

T
M
\/
S

In the above situation, the secondary tank has the aggro by either pulling it or provoking off the puller. Here, ONLY the secondary tank should be having the aggro. Main tank must quickly run AND face the back of the monster. As a thief, you can have your weapons out early in the fight, just make sure you aren't in your uber mode yet and unleash it prematurely.

T
M
\/
S

In the above situation, Thief has Sneak Attack+Trick Attack activated. This has to be done perfectly, which you will be used to eventually. After the damage has been done, and hate has been properly placed. It should look something like this.

M
/\
S
T

Thieves have the priority of standing behind the monster. Only one other person should be in front of the thief at all times. The entire process should take only a few seconds. Things won't always go right. If you don't have a first provoker, a stray crit hit or large cure on the puller could mess up aggro. Someone should take the first few hits; hopefully their defense isn't too horrid that they get raped w/in seconds as well.

[Shaftaru]

Thanks guys. That helps a bit. But does trick attack do additional damage to sneak attack? Or after I use trick attack once should I just use sneak attack for the rest of the mob's life?

-The ShAfTaRu

[Alontier]

Forgot where I got this info from but:

ä¸?æ„?ã?†ã?¡ã€?ã?_ã?¾ã?—討ã?¡ã?®ã‚_ャップダム¡ãƒ¼ã‚¸
Sneak, Trick Attack Damage Cap

・ä¸?æ„?打ã?¡ã?®ã‚_ャップダメージ
Sneak Damage Cap
　　(D+8+(D/9)+DEX)*3

・ã?_ã?¾ã?—討ã?¡ã‚¯ãƒªãƒ†ã‚£ã‚«ãƒ«ã?®ã‚_ャッム—ダメージ
Trick Damage Cap
　　(D+8+(D/9)+AGI)*3

※ã?_ã?¾ã?—討ã?¡é€šå¸¸HIT時ã?®å¨?力ã?®ç›®å®‰ï¼ šD値+AGI値相当ã?®æ_¦å™¨ã‚ˆã‚Šå°‘ã?—å¼±ã‚?ã?®å¨ ?力
Avarage Trick attack damage: Slightly below weapons based on D+AGI

・ä¸?æ„?ã?_ã?¾ã?®ã‚_ャップダメージ
Fuidama (Sneak+Trick) Damage Cap
　　(D+8+(D/9)+DEX+AGI)*3

※ã‚_ャップダメージ：Lvã?Œæ¥µç«¯ã?«é›¢ã‚Œ ã?Ÿç›¸æ‰‹ã?¸ã?®æœ€å¤§ãƒ€ãƒ¡ãƒ¼ã‚¸(=é™?界ダメー ジ)
Damage Cap: Max damage against mobs with a large level diff.

※VIT,INT,MND,CHRã?¯ã‚_ャップダメージã?«å½ ±éŸ¿ã?—ã?ªã?„
VIT,INT,MND,CHR does not affect the damage cap

※STR,攻撃力ã?¯ã‚_ャップダメージã?«ã?¯å ½±éŸ¿ã?—ã?ªã?„ã?Œã€?
　ã?Šã?ªã?¤ã‚ˆç_‰ã‚_ャップダメージã?Œå‡ºã? ªã?„相手ã?®å_´å?ˆã‚_ャップダメージ付近ã ?¸è¿‘ã?¥ã?‘ã‚‹æ„?味をæŒ?ã?¤
STR, Att does not affect the damage cap but,
will bring the avarage damage closer to the damage cap
against mobs of even con and like.

[Shaftaru]

WTF mate?
Japanese.. thanks for the info... So trick attack DOES add to damage? It doesn't just transfer hate? Interesting. And so I shouldn't worry about my armor just what stat increases they give me as far as dexterity and agility go? Interesting. Should I worry about the + Attack minus Evasion earrings? Becuase @ my level there really arent' any plus dex or agi earrings.

-The Shaftaru

[PhoR]

yes it adds dmg
and yes, as a thief, you're totally dependant on the rest of your party to be compitent enough to be in the right positions at all times, and NOT move, because if your trick buddy even moves and inch, your trick will miss. (ie, if you have even 1 bad player in your party, he will make you suck. no matter how good you are, if your players don't line up, or a mage pulls aggro at the start, etc etc... then you won't do dmg, and you won't control hate.. ie.. you will suck)

I personally have voiced my disdain for how square nerfed us.. many many times.

Because although you hear "thief is hate control" (which was the case before the NA release, and consequent nerf of sneak attack) now, a thief's role in a party has pretty much been reduced to that of a dmg dealer.

sure you can place hate on the tank at the beginning of the fight, but in order to do that even, you have to have a special party setup, with two "tanks". But what happens halfway through the fight when the secondary tank can't pull the hate off of the main tank? you have to sneak+trick on the secondary. and if you combine this with viper bite, the main tank may not even be able to voke it off, and suddenly your backup tank is the main tank for 30 secs or more. Which is very degrading to party dynamics. I wish square would just pick "hate control" or "dmg dealer" for thf, and stick with it. Because right now we're pretty much just a half-ass version of both. (we have to have a special party setup to be a good dmg dealer, and we can only contribute to hate control at the beginning of a fight) That nerf was just lame if you ask me, and something needs to be changed about the way thf works now.

i'm tired of whining about it. just hope they do something about it soon.

[Shaftaru]

Thanks for the insight man. I see what you mean, being as I came to the game after the NA nerf of the fuidama combo I never understood the concept of hate control being as I had never seen it in action. If what you say is true then square really did screw us over. I think square should commit to damage dealer. But being as I'm relatively knew, how did thieves work before they were nerfed?

-The Shaftaru

[PhoR]

well you will see it mentioned elsewhere as "yokodama" or side attack.
Basically, before the NA release, you could hit sneak attack from the side of the mob. And I don't know if you know this, but for trick attack to transfer hate, the only requirements are:
1) be "squared up" facing your trick buddy
2) have no mob inbetween you and your trick buddy

SO... back when you could sneak attack from the side, Thf could just stand to the side of the mob, face the tank, sneak+trick, and bam.. a sneak+trick just put hate on the tank, even though he had aggro already.
This is definitely the way trick attack was intended to function.
But when they nerfed sneak attack, (because it was being used by people subbing thf to cause massive dmg) They also inadvertantly completely screwed up trick attack.

I really wish square would take a good look at how retarded their sneak attack nerf was. They took thf (a great hate control job) and turned it into a half-ass dmg dealer that depends on a second tank standing directly behind the mob, not moving.. in order to even be able to use his abilities at all. (if the trick buddy doesn't line up, or moves, we might as well be afk, because we won't be contributing at all to the party.)
It's just dumb.

god.. i feel like i'm just whining, But then I did a search on my server: /sea all thf 40-75 .... 57 thiefs online in this level range. 30 are not grouped, 23 are looking for groups, and 4 are actually in a party.

How much more clear does it have to be that trick attack needs a change before square actually does something about it?

[Meowmix]

Personally i admit that it's hard to get people's full attention in random parties. But if you take the time (sometimes forever) to explain everything correctly, you will have things going very smoothly until party breakup. Late 40's, 50+ everyone should know a THF's role.

After tons of parties that have went perfect for me, i went back home feeling great about my teammates, and myself, for working hard together to gain levels.

I agree with Phor that SE should do something about us having more of a role post 60, but pre-50 i haven't had much of a problem. But i'm sure i will be sad about seeking for hours later on.

v.v