Accuracy - Beyond frustrating

[Roxtar]

So I've been leveling up my Galka by killing Mad Sheep in the Highlands. I've found this is much more productive than partying in the Dunes unless you can find the ever-elusive efficient party. So I kill my sheep, and I miss SO much. When I have the guy to 28 hp and I'm 1 hit away from winning, and I have 85 hp left, and he wins, it's beyond frustrating. It's bad enough that he gets 2 shots in to every 1 of mine because of my slow GS, but when I miss 4 shots in a row it absolutely kills me. I've saved up for a Braveheart sword that adds +5 to accuracy, but I can't use that until level 20. Does anyone else have accuracy problems and whats a good way to go about fixing that.

[Rodin]

If you have your subjob, use a THF sub. If you don't you're SOL until LV 18. Level in Valkurm, trust me it's easier.

[Tonkz]

lol... missing at low lvls ... wait till you get higher ><

[Roxtar]

What about poison? I just killed a Mist Lizard and he plague-breathed me. I had 180 hp and it drained me all the way down. That genuinely pissed me off.

[Rodin]

Welcome to leveling in bastok....( I don't go for them anymore)

[fuz]

Hmm... I usually level off orcs in ghelsba solo. Sheep are quite painful with the rapid attacks.

Try using an elemental spell to finish off mobs if you can't seem to hit them.

Not much you can do about hit-rate, except get some (rather pricey) balance rings.

[Mikasa]

yea, i have +34 acc and i still miss my fair share of times....

[Crowzukin]

It's interesting to note that no matter what level you are or how much +accuracy you have, your hit rate will NEVER reach 100%, even against a lv 1 mob. It seems to be capped well below 100%. Same with magic, too -- even damage spells can be resisted (very seldomly) by lv 1 mobs.

[Ednoon]

What about poison? I just killed a Mist Lizard and he plague-breathed me. I had 180 hp and it drained me all the way down. That genuinely pissed me off.

theres a secret why Bastok has Alchemy Guild and another reason why it requires no skill to make Antidote. shsss dont share the secret :spin:

[Zafron]

First i would switch weapons to Great Axe, since once you cap your skills GA does more damage than GS for wars since the skill cap is higher.

2nd i would go level in the dunes. You get to take advantage of BLMs doing 90% of the damage all the while you get to level your weapon skill with the 2 hits a fight you actually land.

Expect to be in an inefficient group. Not having a sub-job makes you a sub-par WAR. Its like you bring a handicap with you. There isn't a whole lot you can do about it, unless you buy yourself some leaping boots, some balance rings, and keep yourself stocked with meat mithkabobs, but since you probably can't afford that you are going to be a really crappy party addition.

For this reason You will be the last choice of experienced players who have been through the dunes with 6 different jobs and most of your invites are going to come from other players with no experience.

This has no reflection on your skill, its just a stage in the game that everyone has to go through. Just be aware of it and keep pushing.

[Thorrion]

Couple of things:

1) Without subjob, don't try soloing too much... at 12 with subjob you can solo sheep easily, without sub you'll likely struggle with them up to 15+.

2) Never exp on Lizard mobs unless either a) You're a whm with Poisona, b) grouped with a whm with Poisona, or c) have money to waste in antidotes (not worth it with the amount of other mobs around).

[Xephoid]

I'm wondering if there is a diminishing rate of return for ACC.

I'm trying to think along the line of a PLD. Notice that at SOME point that adding more DEF no longer helps them much at all, that's why you see so many PLD at higher level with a large amount of +VIT equipment than DEF, which by conventional thinking of 2VIT = 1 DEF doesn't make any sense. The reason why is that there is a cut off point where + VIT > +DEF.

So is there a similiar cut off point for +ACC? Is there a point where you are gonna miss, you are gonna miss, no matter how much +ACC you have. Where +DEX offers a great rate of return than +ACC.

Common thinking is that accuracy is calculated in a formula that consider both your ACC vs mob's EVA, and also your DEX vs mob's AGI. So when does the first component becomes less than the 2nd component?

Any idea and thoughts?

[Mithrael]

I'm 99.9999% positive there is... There is a cap on Elemental Damage, Physical Damage, Healing Amount, etc.... So why not Accuracy? But where is there question ><

However, my best educated guess would be that there isn't a diminishing rate of return, but instead a soft cap per your level. I have no way to prove that though, and I have no idea what that would be. I'm pretty confident though that if at lv.75 you have every piece of Acc+ gear, you'll have exceeded that cap.

I've been trying to devise a reasonable way of testing it for a long time, but like people have said, there is no solid way. I've had days where I'll miss 3-4 times in a row against a lv.35 Quadav in Beadeaux. That's with accuracy+30 at lv.55... So I can't seem to think of any way to just "count the misses" and compare to various Accuracy levels that would be reliable given such broad random characteristics. Unfortunately, I don't think S-E will give up the info easily -.-

[l)@RK-l)EVIL]

Originally posted by Mithrael
Unfortunately, I don't think S-E will give up the info easily -.-

S-E
already tell us <.<

check this out
press here (http://ffxi.crgaming.com/interviews/viewinterview.asp?Id=209)

[Roxtar]

theres a secret why Bastok has Alchemy Guild and another reason why it requires no skill to make Antidote. shsss dont share the secret

Yeah, I'll have to check that out. I haven't had problems with poison until that lizard though.

[Bigokk McGock]

We want equations DD ><

[Macht]

Yeah, the +ACC has been something I've wondered about. I had noticed a few things with all my jobs and their accuracy at lower levels. Very oddly enough I have a few suspicions with it, certain job combinations I've noticed seem to have better hit rate then others that is extreemly noticeable.

When researching the items and all I noticed one thing that seemed a little odd. Almost every melee type has access to a wide variety of +MND equipment, and yet nearly no access to +INT equipment (more usually only -INT). So I do have some theories with those that I'd like to try when I get a chance.

Anyway though if it's coming up with a way to test any ideas with the hit rate, I do have an idea of how to do it. I unfortunatly do not have the level/time/equipment to test it at this time though :( .

The best way I see to test this requires about 4 controls. If anyone wants to do this and give back the results they get, I'm sure it'll be more then welcome to it. However since many of the +ACC item I've seen has another + or - to a status, makes it were it has to be tested multiple ways to get an accurate result of how effective the +ACC really is.

Anyway on to what to do for the testing if someone wants to try. The info we'll need out of these tests is:


Combat Skill and Is it capped
Main Job and it's Level (To determine if jobs has some seacret control of accuracy)
+ACC equipment being tested (Include it's stats for us that don't know them to well)
Out of 500 (If higher numbers are used specify that) attacks # Hit
Out of 500 (If higher numbers are used specify that) attacks # Miss

What you'll need to do is test it first with the +ACC items equipped attack worthless monster of the same type so if you start with Wild Rabbits then stay with Wild Rabbits. Attack this type of monster till you have reach a total count of 500 attacks if no miss has occured then continue till you miss 1.

After you have that data unequip all the +ACC items and repeat this again on the monsters you did the previous control on. Again go to 500 attacks or more if no miss has occured. (If the +ACC item is in the weapon, have another of the same type. Specify if weapon was changed).

This should start to give some idea of a Accuracy cap and if the +ACC is changing the results any (At this point it's only to test the properties of a possible cap).

Once you got that info the next tests will be more to see how the +ACC does effect you. Again with all the +ACC items equipped attack monsters of Even Match for 500 attacks, again make sure you stay with the same type (including if Even Match has high defense, make sure you get ones that are Even with high defense not just Even). Do the same thing again with the same Even's and this time without the +ACC items equipped (Again specify if weapon was changed).

If anyone actually has the time to do that and would like to provide me the data I'd be glad to work the math equations on them and provide the results. This can be done with multiple people too but then everyone would have to be the exact same in Race, Job, Sub, Level, equipment, and tested with the same monsters.

[truong]

this game is fucking retarded. no matter how much +acc you have, you're still gonna miss. you're still gonna miss A LOT. fuck, YOU'RE STILL GONNA MISS ON TOO WEAK. YOU'RE GONNA MISS ON TOO WEAK A LOT. forget camping/farming for those million dollar +acc gears. pt with a bard. madrigal >>>> +acc gears.

[Roxtar]

So is it worthwhile for a level 18 to shell out 20k for a Braveheart sword with +5 ACC. Keep in mind, at that level you can get a GS with about 8 more damage for much cheaper, but without the ACC.

[kazthegun]

braveheart is godly. if you have the gils, get it and use it at least for those two levels before two-handed sword. because +acc is so hard to come by at that level, you may want to use it instead of two-handed sword if you don't have a brd in the PT.

hitrate seems to cap out around 80-90%. i dunno though, i can't get any parsers to work on my machine. orz to the max.

[dworkin]

i believe that acc is dependent on the mob you face. if at lvl 49 i were to fight a tunnel worm, id believe that acc would be capped, now if i were to take that same acc an fight a inc exoray. i dont think it be capped. right now i have +22 acc, an i still miss. there are times i will miss 4 straight on a very tough mob, an then there are long streches, where i may miss 2 times out of 13 times. so until S.E comes out an tells us what we want to know, it is all guess work..:mad:

[l)@RK-l)EVIL]

guys if melee dont miss then who need blm spells cuz we will do more damage and we already do more damage with high lv ws?

who will need brd then?

anyway when i was goin to sandoria

i have +30 accuracy +lv 188 skill

and guess what?
i miss lv 1 mob :mad: so yes im sure there is cap like 90% or something

[Xephoid]

you will miss against a lv 1 mob even if you have 12903852408520458204852082 Acc. It's a baseline number.

If any one played AD&D, you know that you automatically miss if you roll a 1 on a 20 sided die, and your LV 60 THACO aren't even used in that event. So even if you are Lv 1 gazillion, you still have at least 5% chance of missing.

Think a similiar system is used. You always have a baseline miss %. I just seems that you miss alot because of the long delay on your weapon, since 1 swoosh = 7 seconds of standing there looking dumb. If you were using a sword, it's 3 seconds, you probably dont' even notice.

[Thelps]

If any one played AD&D, you know that you automatically miss if you roll a 1 on a 20 sided die, and your LV 60 THACO aren't even used in that event.

Y'see, this is what I've been thinking all along. There's a basic number rolled to see if you hit or not and that number is modified by Acc (which itself is partially modified by Dex, I say partially because some gear gives JUST +acc rather than +DEX) BUT if the baseline number isn't high enough in itself, then the Acc is disregarded and you miss. In effect, there HAS to be less than a 100% hit rate for realism's sake if nothing else. As has always been the rule in pen and paper RPGs (Something which FF11 owes more to than even most MMORPGs do...) there MUST be a chance for a lvl 1 weakling to hurt someone with 10 times their stats simply because that's how things are in real life.

If you can imagine a person fighting a bumblebee (crazy example I know, but illustrates the point) odds are the person is guaranteed to win simply because there's no way one bumblebee can kill someone. But let's just say the bumblebee gets stupidly, stupidly lucky and stings the person in the temple (the thinest part of your skull, just above each ear) and the stinger HAPPENS to make it through into their brain where the subsequent venom (That's right, bumblebees are venomous) wreaks havoc on their central nervous system causing an epileptic fit resulting in spine-breaking muscle spasms. In this situation the bumblebee has won. Everyone knows bumblebees aren't dangerous and only fear them for a cursory sting but they represent a risk, regardless of how small.

As that (frankly ludicrous, I know) illustration shows,it just makes SENSE to have you miss ultra weak monsters every so often. It won't make them any more dangerous to you really at all (I've yet to see a few misses cause a lvl 75 to die to a lvl 10 monster) but it adds a sense of chance to every combat which, if you ask me, increases the fun since you really cant predict what will happen during a fight even if you can predict its outcome.

[Tango]

I have Hauberk and thick set, I dont even need snipers. Don't matter if you have +100 acc, you still going to miss

[ENWEH]

Originally posted by Thelps


Y'see, this is what I've been thinking all along. There's a basic number rolled to see if you hit or not and that number is modified by Acc (which itself is partially modified by Dex, I say partially because some gear gives JUST +acc rather than +DEX) BUT if the baseline number isn't high enough in itself, then the Acc is disregarded and you miss. In effect, there HAS to be less than a 100% hit rate for realism's sake if nothing else. As has always been the rule in pen and paper RPGs (Something which FF11 owes more to than even most MMORPGs do...) there MUST be a chance for a lvl 1 weakling to hurt someone with 10 times their stats simply because that's how things are in real life.

If you can imagine a person fighting a bumblebee (crazy example I know, but illustrates the point) odds are the person is guaranteed to win simply because there's no way one bumblebee can kill someone. But let's just say the bumblebee gets stupidly, stupidly lucky and stings the person in the temple (the thinest part of your skull, just above each ear) and the stinger HAPPENS to make it through into their brain where the subsequent venom (That's right, bumblebees are venomous) wreaks havoc on their central nervous system causing an epileptic fit resulting in spine-breaking muscle spasms. In this situation the bumblebee has won. Everyone knows bumblebees aren't dangerous and only fear them for a cursory sting but they represent a risk, regardless of how small.

As that (frankly ludicrous, I know) illustration shows,it just makes SENSE to have you miss ultra weak monsters every so often. It won't make them any more dangerous to you really at all (I've yet to see a few misses cause a lvl 75 to die to a lvl 10 monster) but it adds a sense of chance to every combat which, if you ask me, increases the fun since you really cant predict what will happen during a fight even if you can predict its outcome.

Bumblebees die when they sting you.:thumbsup:

DKO

[dworkin]

i been very curious on the hit rate an if acc as something to do with it or not so i set up a small study. in quifim i fought weapons using my scythe vs 25 mobs, it took 6 swings, to kill the mob. 5 would land, but 1 would miss, next fight i wouldnt miss, then 3 rd fight id miss 2 times. oddly when it all ended 25 mobs, an 27 miss's. now i took out a 1 handed sword, an did the same test. it took about 10-12 swings to kill the mob, an at every fight i either missed once, or twice. at the end of 25 mobs i was shocked. i missed 31 times total.. for twice the number of swings, i only missed 4 more times. i have also noticed in pts pld miss rarely as compared to me.

this makes me think that 2 handed weapons might have a hidden -acc attribute to them. sounds loony, but if last resort has a soft provoke, why wouldnt 2 handed weapons have a - acc flaw??

i jus dont see how after a bio2, plus absorb agi, an vit, with acc ballard, an 18 acc. why i still miss so much, just doent make sense to me. so am i crazy on my weapon theory?

[Thorrion]

Well, Bio2 and Absorb-VIT won't help your accuracy.

But as for the rest, yes, it does seem unfair to miss so much.

[fuz]

I've noticed it too at lvl 30-48, that pld seem to hit more often than I do. (Well, at lvl 30 he did have a centurian's sword...) It wasn't until I really started pouring on the +acc that my hit rate started to soar past a pld.

[dworkin]

i know that miss's are alright. it does keep you alive, an helps pld keep good hate control. but when you shell out 56k for lvl 50 gloves with +3 acc, 65k for a life belt with +10 acc, an 660k for sniper rings witch have +5 acc a peice. i am looking at +23 acc. i know barbarian scythe has -5 acc. so that means im swinging with +18 more acc then my pld, an other melee class's. so why do i still miss as much as i do. i d have +6 dex when i pt. plus what the total number is.


im startin to question if all those late night farmings, an NM hunting where not in vein. in my quest to bring the best drk to a pt with the best equipment. i feel it was just a waste of time. cause i have not seen the fruit of my labor. in the end i just made a well looking drk, that people love to scan, an ask for money..:mad:

[Ednoon]

hi you are hitting IT monsters for xp that means they are about 5 levels higher than you. you are easy prey to them, i bet you're gonna be piss when easy prey DRG type mob hit you 90% rate.
it is required you wear acc. gears because 500delay weapons miss blows. i once PTed with another DRK has negative 5 acc. and he can hit crab 3 times per fight while other has 100%+ tp, pretty much like a lv50 blm using stone1 nuking IT monster at that level.

theres 2 things you can do.
1. dont be lowest level in PT or you gonna miss ALOT if you just happen to be lowest level in PT just keep your month shut no one will think you suck if you dont say.
2. play a BST and solo stuff from decent-tough check and you can actually tell the different between 0 acc. and 5 acc.

Edit: if you dont miss whos gonna waste time on Bard and Fenrir.

[dworkin]

well the plus note it seems is that i was never given a 3rd option to but better gear. must mean i have done something right. plus i will rarely say anything about my miss's in a group. sometimes i will say something to a friend in tell or to a fellow ls member. but theres no way i wanna have my pt notice how crappy im doing.

i guess the thing that gets me is to have a drg call for a tp count, an hes at a 100tp, an i barely passed 50tp. only to check him an notice, that he has a swordbelt, one +2 dex ring, an a sandy ring.. an all i can say is wtf!!! then i follow it up with a good headbutt to the desk. the head ache that follows isnt nice. but atleast i caused this one, not the game.:p

maybe you might be able to tell me where can i lvl my g sword at. im lvl 50, an the sword is at skill lvl 91. just to spice up things when i farm, instead of staring at the scythe even longer.. :thumbsup:

[Ednoon]

kill tigers at the tiger cave. the ranger job quest one should get you 110-120 skill. 1 for the gil 2 for the skill. after that you really have to kill something higher level, not sure if you are able to solo.
at 140 skill you should try to bring out your great sword as much as possible in PT use same type of element but GS WS to replace the renkei setup.
after 175skill hmm lv55 you'll get vorpal scythe you can replace that with power slash to train your great sword and let you PT know. you will use vorpal scythe ALOT.
after 66 i get spinning slash i start to worry i wont cap my scythe anymore because i use spinning slash in xp PT almost everytime and im 2k from 68 scythe still not capped at 67.
oh and lv50-60 there are alot of key farm PT you should join them and train your weapon... i wont worry about it too much at lv50-lv60 there are tons of people looking for help on key camping

[dworkin]

well if i can get my great sword skill near 120 solo, id be more comfortable useing it in exp fighting. because right now my scythe is maxed at 153 from all the limit quest huntin i have been doing.

plus it is damn near impossible to get a pt, or static pt to gain exp. let alone finding a pt jus to lvl weapon skills. i dont see them up in searchs an i know i dont come across a shout or tell while im in jeuno. so finding them is pretty hard. plus it seems all any of my ls wants is af/exp. so gettin them into it is a waste of time..


so is it lvl of mob compared to me that rises skill lvl on weapons, or is it the lvl of the weapon compared to the mob??

[riceburner4540]

level of weapon compared to mob, which means if you want to cap it, it must be on even match+ monster. for example, you said your skill for GS is 91 (level 30). the goblins in batallia downs can get your skill up to 111 (level 36), tops, if you kill the absolute hardest ones there.

and honestly, skill up parties are very hard to find unless its skilling up to skill 200 or so. those are quite popular, at least on my server. joining coffer key hunt parties or limit quest (1) parties is a great way to up your combat skills.

[silverfang]

I know I'm only a level 32 dark knight but I do not feel concerned about my hitratio. I suppose it will get worse later on but what matters is what damage you do, not how often you hit.

Usually I can not use soul eater/berserk etc because my damage will make the mob turn to me, so if I simply miss too much I just turn some abilities on..

[dworkin]

aaaa young padawon. it is not good to stack your abilities. if you do that what you have done is basically lost 3/4 of your def. making every hit you take cost you alot of hp. an if you have souleater on then that drains it even more. thus you are either A. dead. or B. draining mages of there mana, an that means d time.

LAST RESORT i use before the puller gets back, thus the mob isnt effected by its soft provoke, an pld can do their hate managment. another time i will click it is when i near 100 tp. that way i can gain it, an land the weapon skill so i dont mess up the chain.


SOULEATER i use when the party has hit a big problem, an something has gone very wrong, an we need the mob dead. an we need it dead in a hurry.it always seems like we are half way into the fight when it happens, an i am always at full health. so i let my group know i am calling for it.


BERSERK i use about a 1/4 into the fight. pld can keep hate very well by now, so you will get little attention from the mob unless you knock off alot of criticals back to back.

there is only 2 times i will use all i got, an thats on a pld death or benni.. then its this simple trick that i use.. poison> provoke> last resort> souleater > then sometimes into blood weapon...

[dworkin]

you missing doesnt get frustrating til after level 32. thats when you fight beetles. an well trust me when i say, you will miss more then you do on the onion men! an as you get higher in levels it gets alot worse. then when you go out, and spend insane amounts on items, an gear to lower it, an it still happens. well thats when you need the tums.. just go back an actually see how much i spent to lower the missing problem. an what i bring to every pt now. then you will see why..


last night i lvled great sword from 91 - 101. on evil weapons in batillia downs. also while doing this i have also lvled enfeebs magic from 99-103. im just curious how long i can do this too. an yes riceburner you are correct. weapon skilln lvl = to mob lvl will gain you skill points. my sword was at a lvl 30 status. so fighting mobs that are that level or around that lvl is what i been doing. so i figure i can stay there to about lvl 117-120 with g sword. then i will find another good place to lvl, maybe hit the worker crawlers in the nest.. i shall write back what i find :thumbsup: good luck drks! :thumbsup: