Fuidama Usage (experienced Thieves please help)

[Mistress Kimba]

Im a thief in a static party, and we are all starting to understand each others niches in the group a little more every time we level. The party consists of WHM, RDM, PAL, SAM, DRK, and me THF. I am the puller for the group and when I bring a mob in the Samurai does the initial provoke, I quickly setup Fuidama onto the paladin and then he provokes and trys to keep hate from then on.

Is it counter productive to setup behind the Samurai and use Trick and Sneak after the 1 minute refresh has passed? Some higher level players in my linkshell have told me that as a thf, I should not be using my trick and sneak for damage unless I have the TP for Viper Bite ready to go. I should only use it to reestablish hate onto the paladin in the even that the one of the other group members manages to pull it off.

Can anyone tell me of their experiences of how their party is handled? Most of our group is a little noobish when it comes to understanding the abilities of the other group members, and our tank feels that my TA/SA is better used for damage than Hate establishing. As a paladin with refresh on he feels he can keep hate just fine without me sometimes.

Looking for personal experiences, not opinions, if possible.

[John Doe III]

Originally posted by Mistress Kimba
[B]Is it counter productive to setup behind the Samurai and use Trick and Sneak after the 1 minute refresh has passed? Some higher level players in my linkshell have told me that as a thf, I should not be using my trick and sneak for damage unless I have the TP for Viper Bite ready to go. I should only use it to reestablish hate onto the paladin in the even that the one of the other group members manages to pull it off.

Can anyone tell me of their experiences of how their party is handled? Most of our group is a little noobish when it comes to understanding the abilities of the other group members, and our tank feels that my TA/SA is better used for damage than Hate establishing. As a paladin with refresh on he feels he can keep hate just fine without me sometimes.[B]

Dont ya just wish you had Yokodoma? ^_~

Anyways, what your doing is just fine. You pull, 2nd tank provokes, fui behind main tank, then main tank provokes. If you have 80% or alittle more TP you should wait till renkei then do everything behind poor Pally.

I believe someone said in another post that Thieves are mainly here for hate transfer, Drk's have their purpose, rng's to..so forth. Although, sometimes during a renkei this could get tricky becuase (correct me if i'm wrong but your doing renkei with Samurai no?) if you are still behind Pal and the Samurai doesn't get all the hate he needs to to turn the mob around for you to do Viper, then tell him to taunt first-->WS-->sneak and so forth. Then there should be plenty of hate to keep on the tank. Even though the tank thinks he can keep the hate your better off still doing what your doing.

I hope that was on topic...

[Mithrankittycat]

My set party:
TP gain and killing is so fast with pimp gear and bard, that we say F' it to fuidama at start.

Random JP/EN party:
The paladin demanded that I did fuidama at start on him. Because we had to wait for my fuidama timer, the ranger and I overkilled the monster with our renkei.

In both types of parties, I never get to do fuidama ws on paladin for renkei.

[Roldarin]

Most trick partners and paladins I've played with up to 44 haven't had too much trouble with the second trick going on the non-paladin.

And as long as I use my good judgement and make sure something will be dead when I use fuidama on them, I can even Renkei on the other melee.

Since I typically will insist on being the person to call the Renkeis, I sometimes can Renkei at the start of a pull. I just have to forgo using my Sneak/Trick right before I pull. That means a delay on my second one.

You have to be able to read your party and figure out who the smart melee in your party is (if you are lucky its both). I sometimes will find only the non-paladin is really up on who provokes first and whatnot.

You really get to learn to read a party pretty quickly. What they will do for you, and what they won't.

[Mal]

What IS Fuidama, anyway??

[Anya]

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[Krakster]

@ level 32 so far this is how it works. I get an invite, I keep my mouth shut for the first few pulls and see if I am grouped with idiots or not.

If grouped with idiots, I try once to explain fuidama, if sucessful, then great, I am trick/sneaking the hate away from the secondary tank at the beginning of the fight onto the main tank.

after a minute passes, I may or may not fuidama again. Depends on the strength of the mob we are fighting, amount of life left, and tanking ability of the secondary tank. At these low levels most of the time I can just fuidama it back onto the secondary tank and almost kill it without the secondary tank taking too much of a beating/being too much of a mana sponge. I can see this will probably have to change as the levels get higher and mobs get more dangerous.


If I am grouped with a set of idiots i'll just sneak attack when I can and squeeze a fuidama in when the planets align correctly. Generally I am saving trick attack when grouped with idiots to try and help save the magi.


Being a thief is becoming pretty tough with random pickup groups in general.

[Deodorant]

Mmm here is my opinion:

Generally speaking you should be putting hate onto tank only. Of course, there are exceptions; an example would be trying to quickly kill off a mob for chain 4 or 5, where damage takes priority over hate control.

With a PLD tank and a 'tougher' melee (war, sam), it is probably acceptable to fuidama onto the melee whenever.

With a 'weaker' melee (drk drg), it's a little tricker ... you might as well tell one of the mages to be your fuidama partner (before you go 'omgwtf,' rdm's typically have higher defense than drg's and drk's, and they can slap phalanx, blink, stoneskin on top of that).

With a NIN tank you should absolutely never fuidama onto second melee, unless you're sure it will (almost) kill the mob, because it will kill your effectiveness.

[LunarCry]

i try to time my tp use so i can start the battle with renkei behind tank. with a good tank this should be enough hate for the entire battle so you can trick behind other buddy to your hearts content and are able to save 3rd or 4th SA/TA for less downtime if the mob is dying "too" fast

[puhfyn]

As a thief in my set party, im able to get off fuidama 3 times per battle. I do sneak + trick when the puller is about 30 seconds away from our party with an incoming moster. by the time everyone is set up and second tank has provoked, i engage the enemy and let off fuidama on the ninja. then ninja taunts and i rotate 180 degrees over to the secondary tank. Then i wait about 5 seconds and empty another fuidama off onto secondary tank. by this time his provoke is about gone so hate usually stays on Ninja. It really isn't a big problem, the aggro usually stays on ninja. after a minute the enemy is about dead and i do another fuidama on the secondary tank, finishing it off. at level 37 that is 250-300 fuidama damage 3x per battle plus normal damage that is hardly bad compared to other melee because of my accuracy.

ON renkei monsters, do not do sneak + trick before the battle. after secondary tank taunts, he does Tachi Enpi (he's Sam/war). Then i empty fuidama + viper bite which does 300-350 DMG plus 200-250 renkei damage plus MB from the black mage. then primary tank taunts and has enough hate to last the whole battle. I usually only get off one fuidama during a renkei battle because it takes away about 40-60% of the enemy's life (with enpi and MB). Then after the enemy dies i wait about 5 seconds and do sneak and trick again in preparation for next pull.

It goes a lot smoother with a set party, but if you know what you're doing, THF gives hate control plus massive damage... /war and berserk helps.

Puhfyn Elvaan 32 THF - deleted
Kiyah Mithra 37 THF - active

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by Deodorant
With a NIN tank you should absolutely never fuidama onto second melee, unless you're sure it will (almost) kill the mob, because it will kill your effectiveness.
Hmmm I think this needs to be rewritten as:

With a NIN tank you should absolutely never ws fuidama onto second melee during renkei, unless you're sure it will (almost) kill the mob, because it will kill your effectiveness.

Normal fuidama by itself shouldn't be an issue, but fuidama a 1200 shark bite + 1200 light renkei onto second tank and you can forget about nin tanking the rest of the fight.

[puhfyn]

Originally posted by Deodorant

Hmmm I think this needs to be rewritten as:

With a NIN tank you should absolutely never ws fuidama onto second melee during renkei, unless you're sure it will (almost) kill the mob, because it will kill your effectiveness.

Normal fuidama by itself shouldn't be an issue, but fuidama a 1200 shark bite + 1200 light renkei onto second tank and you can forget about nin tanking the rest of the fight.

I agree. Just make sure that secondary tank provokes at the beginning of battle and then fuidama right away on main tank to give him a lot of initial hate. This hate seems to last the whole battle. I mean white mages can throw a curaga on us and the monster won't even flinch. XD

[Ljarin]

Originally posted by Deodorant
Mmm here is my opinion:

Generally speaking you should be putting hate onto tank only. Of course, there are exceptions; an example would be trying to quickly kill off a mob for chain 4 or 5, where damage takes priority over hate control.

With a PLD tank and a 'tougher' melee (war, sam), it is probably acceptable to fuidama onto the melee whenever.

With a 'weaker' melee (drk drg), it's a little tricker ... you might as well tell one of the mages to be your fuidama partner (before you go 'omgwtf,' rdm's typically have higher defense than drg's and drk's, and they can slap phalanx, blink, stoneskin on top of that).

With a NIN tank you should absolutely never fuidama onto second melee, unless you're sure it will (almost) kill the mob, because it will kill your effectiveness.




Actually I would say a drg is even better to do it on than a sam or war. As they can just shed the hate with Jump if they need to.

[vudoodoodoo]

I Fui on mages that melee behind the mob. :biggrin: :spin:

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by vudoodoodoo
I Fui on mages that melee behind the mob. :biggrin: :spin:
Funny you should say that, because a couple of days ago I was fuidama 'buddy' for the thf in an exp party (me = rdm). Setup was:

DRK/THF ---> PLD --> <MOB <-- (ME) <-- THF

Renkei being THF fuidama shark bite > DRK fuidama cross reaper (or spin slash? I forgot haha). With blink and stoneskin I rarely ever took any damage, was one of the busiest, and yet most fun parties I've had in a while.

[tomiko]

I buy six hits (blink1) of time for you to set up fuidama on the pld/nin.
I tank without getting hurt till the mob is dead after you SA/TA + WS on me :p THF love me.
I deal very good damage and can easily grab hate if the pld/nin is about to bite it...and tank well if they do!
However, G Axe/Axe don't SC with dagger well untill the 225 WS's.