Pulling...replacing tanking?

[Koyasha]

First, I've heard that Square intends to nerf Ninja ability to be a blink-tank. I don't know if that's true, but it seems logical enough to me, so my thoughts assume this is something they want to and will eventually do.

Ninjas seem to make pretty good pullers in this game, but there doesn't seem to be a significant advantage to having them as pullers. If we presume that Square never intended Ninjas to be tanks, which is a pretty safe assumption, perhaps the intended role was puller? If so, it seems that Square gave Ninjas not enough abilities to clearly define this role.

It occurred to me that as masters of stealth and the surprise strike, Ninjas would make an excellent 'puller' role. I would therefore suggest that if Utsusemi is to be nerfed, a method be used that would not remove the other benefits of Utsusemi, but simply make a Ninja incapable of tanking. To that end, it seems logical to adjust Ninja hate. Simply giving Ninjas the equivalent of an innate -50 or -100 Enmity, and they would be rendered incapable of tanking. They would very quickly lose the monster's attention. (This ability should only apply to Ninja mains, not subs, so that the many classes that *want* to lower hate can't simply sub Ninja). This also fits in with the idea of a ninja - strike and fade into the shadows unnoticed...without giving them the ability to lose agro at will.

Of course, simply nerfing their ability to tank would leave Ninjas rather below other classes. In exchange, they should, in my opinion, get abilities that fit the Ninja idea. Job abilities of Sneak and Invis would be a good start. 5 minute reuse timers, level 5 and 10 abilities. And fitting the master of stealth idea, give them a guaranteed amount of time that they're active for, with a random interval after that. Say, 60, 90, or 120 seconds during which Sneak and Invis *cannot* fail, and then normal random-failure chance after that.

Not enough, and it doesn't really give a defined group role, though. Ninjas already have some debuffs...how about we add to that role. But make it work in a pulling capacity only. Ninjas are masters of surprise, right? Give them abilities that can only be used if they surprise the enemy (read as, the enemy is not currently agro on anyone). That means only *one* of these debuffs can be landed on the same mob (make them not stack, so that attempts to de-agro and double-debuff the mob don't work also). Make them long-duration and non-dispellable. Say 5 to 10 minute duration. And make them some pretty significant debuffs. Clearly this would have to be balanced to be significant enough to be strongly desired (thus giving Ninjas a clear role that people *want* them for), but at the same time not overpowered. My thoughts would start with some melee debuffs, like cutting a monster's ATK, DEF, or ACC by 1/4 or 1/3 or so. Make it percentage-based so that the difference is basically the same on all monsters. Magic debuffs would also work.. At low levels, a debuff that cuts one elemental resistance - as they already have, but a second line that is much more significant, but requires the monster to be non-agro when it is cast. At higher levels, debuffs that cut down two elemental resistances (think L2 Renkei for combinations). At very high levels, a debuff that cuts down on 4 elemental resistances (again, L3 Light/Dark Renkei for the specific resistances).

Some of these ideas may be overpowered or underpowered, but balance would have to be done. The idea behind them is to give Ninjas a specific and desired role besides blink-tanking, and ones that fit with their 'master of stealth' and 'surprise attack' roles. The requirement of the monster being non-agro means that only one of these can be used in any given battle, and that the Ninja *must* be the puller in order for it to be used, therefore fitting into the 'surprise attack' role of a first-strike.

Now, I'm not a Ninja, though I do eventually plan to be one...but tanking - as a Ninja - doesn't appeal to me personally. I understand many of you probably enjoy the role, but as I mentioned...I'm working on the assumption that Square does indeed intend to nerf blink-tanking. So I'm really just throwing an idea up for discussion...what do you Ninjas think of it? If we assume that tank will no longer be a viable role, does this sound like a good set of abilities to replace the tank role to you?

[Pandar]

Now, I'm not a Ninja, though I do eventually plan to be one...but tanking - as a Ninja - doesn't appeal to me personally. Then ninja just isnt for you go thf and sub nin
but i do agree with some stuff u say ninjas shouldnt just be tanks =\ i want to just engage a fight go afk for a min andcome back to the mob at low hp

[Koyasha]

It's not that I don't like tanking, I'm currently having fun as a Paladin...but that I don't think a *ninja* is appropriate as a tank. And I think Square agrees, because I believe they are planning to alter things so that Ninjas can't tank anymore. I don't know for sure, but the main point of my post is basically... IF Square is going to nerf Ninja tanking, does this sound like a good replacement role?

Hehe, and AFK tanking doesn't work as any class in this game. =p Actually one of the most active roles I've played.

[Bamce Sylph]

unforutnally ninjas will be hard pressed to beat out rangers in the pulling department. AND, its more the player than the class that makes a good puller, every job has some form of ranged weapon, or attack, or skill, to bring the victim back w/o taking a whole lot of damage, monk have chakra, chibolt, random throwing weapon, rangers have.... well duh, thieves, boomerang/bow, pal, bow, or spell war, bow, dkn, bow, dragoons..... well dragoons get screwed, but they're already screwed. sam, bow, summoners,.... carbuncle, and ninja's have stars, so inreality if square takes away the ninja's tanking roll, your left with a subjob for your theif.... and a debatably good one at that.

[Koyasha]

True, but the point isn't really the pulling...it's the debuffs that work only if the monster is pulled with them. I suppose the pulling is really of no consequence in and of itself, but I tied it to that because it seems like an appropriate situation for the Ninja to be in. That's why I say the debuff has to be good enough to be strongly desired, without being overpowering. Certainly a large debuff to ATK, DEF, Evasion, or Accuracy would be very useful, as would, I presume, larger debuffs to the elemental resistances - and ones that cover more than one element simultaneously. It's the debuff that'd make the group say 'let's get a Ninja puller'.

Of course, if Square does intend to nerf Ninja tanking, I bet they have their own ideas of what to give them to replace, so I'm probably just wasting my breath. :sweat: But, in my 5 years in EverQuest I've seen numerous ideas that came from the players implemented, so I figure the discussion can't hurt. And it'd help Ninjas to talk about it, because there's a chance Square may be listening...it may influence the decision toward something that the community desires, and I haven't seen many other posts recently talking about what a primary role other than tanking might be.

[Bamce Sylph]

sorry about the eq thing, i quit after being screwed in the last expansion but anyway.
if people want ninjas for debuffs they're worseoff than ninja's thought. theives and higher level war's tend to sub ninja and they can debuff just as well. beyond elemental debuffs they get paralyze, slow, blind, which are all copies of whitemagic. so now your going to compete w/ bards for elemental debuffs to be your pt ticket? i don't know anytime any group would pick a ninja over a bard except to tank. if u ask for bigger statistical debuffs, atk, evasion, etc now your stepping on redmages toes, they're only pt ticket is enfeebles w/ marginal backup healing. personally the only problem i see w/ the ninja class is lazy players who try to pass it off as a dps class which in its current incarnation is a tanking role, not pointing fingers at anyone

[Pandar]

if they alter ninjas then it'll be pissed off >_<
i aint spent some gil on utsusemi to pull i did it to be a top priority in a party if they change it SCREW FFXI
Bring in The World of Warcraft OWNS ur PAINIS

[Cloak]

I really do hope that Square Enix nerfs the Ninja tanking ability... Not to piss off the NIN/WAR, but just so Square can (hopefully) make a designated role different from any other job.

But then again, if Ninja does become less gimped, everyone will want to be a Ninja. Right now there are not too many Ninjas running around, and that's what I like about the job. I would hate it if there was as many Ninjas as say... DRKs, PLDs, DRGs, RDMs etc..

Just a matter of time

[Tsubame]

I hope Ninja is changed too, I would like to see them evolve into a more unique role than 'tank'. I realize they can do many things right now already, but I just wish they could do those many wonderful things without tanking. It's like a party doesn't care what you do as long as you tank in addition to it. For better or worse.

EDIT: I'm the same way Cloak, my main three jobs are all pretty uncommon (Ninja, Bard, and Beast Master, though I have very little work done in all three)

[Pandar]

If ninjas were nerfed in tanking ability then they would spend alot less gil = Alot more noobs...

[qweezy]

First, they aren't nerfing Ninjas in any way, stop making up stories. If you have proof then show it.

We use illusions to confuse enemies into hitting our shadow images, if that ain't sneaky enough I don't know what is. And that goes for every other abilities the Ninja has. Problem with this game is if you haven't already notice, your subjob can significantly alter the way your main job works. So if you have problem with people using job combinations that works, maybe you should ask SE to nerf the subjob system instead :rolleyes: .

A good example besides Nin/War would be a Drk/Thf at higher level, they play exactly like a Thief. A Dark Knight with heavy armor using sneak attacks and tricking opponents...using a Scythe/Great Sword. So we should nerf them to right? Because it doesn't fit the whole DRK vision....Or how about the Rdm/Whm combo which can heal 2-3x more effectively then a WHM? The master fencer and enfeebler, that never melees or enfeeble but just heal. I could go on and on about different job combinations that can alter the way the main job works.

Ninjas by themselves are stealthy and sneaky, just remember that.

[Spider-Dan]

I'm not sure why one would want NIN tanking to be nerfed. Right now, NIN is one of the only three quality tank classes in the game (the others being PLD and WAR). If they remove NIN's ability to tank, congratulations, instead of competing for party spots with two other classes, you get to compete with six (DRK, DRG, MNK, RNG, THF, SAM).

Even if NIN gets better debuffs, no one will take a NIN over an RDM for the debuff role. RDM will still have Convert, Refresh, and Cure series, which a NIN will simply not get (for obvious reasons). I would not be looking forward to competing with RDMs for parties, at all. You will lose quickly and often.

[Tsubame]

Originally posted by qweezy
First, they aren't nerfing Ninjas in any way, stop making up stories. If you have proof then show it.


Well, people assume they will be CHANGING (I don't like to say it is nerfing) Ninjas besides SE said they are being used in a way other than intended. The only problem with this is it'd change the job a LOT, and current Ninja might be...stranded as a result.
I don't want to start a NIN/WAR debate or anything, I just personally feel that a Nin's ideal role is not tanking. A DRK's role is to deal damage, so playing a /THF isn't out of the question. And I don't feel that a RDM/WHM can heal better than a WHM can, they can just offer great support to healers (Though RDM's can't melee quite as well as I would hope). Ninja are not the only job that I feel need revision, Summoners most certainly do as well. It won't stop me from playing a Ninja either, even if I have to do it as a NIN/WAR tank, I just wish there were better ways.

Finally, if Ninja were changed, I'd hope they would lean more towards a debuffing role. NOT the same kind of debuffing a Red Mage does. Look at some of their current talents, they can debuff the enemy to elemental damage, do elemental damage themselves, and have a passive ability to inflict status ailments with their weapons.

[Navia]

Wow look at all the NIN/WAR haters come of of the woodwork, asking for a utsusemi nerf. You people have been around EQ too long, where pulling rumors out of your ass and asking for nerfs is an innate reflex when a job doesn't fit your vision.

You think this power comes cheap - it doesn't, thats what balances things. Ninja's massive consumption of powders keeps the tradeskillers happy which keeps the gilfarmers harvesting materials for them in turn happy.
And since Cloak is jumping on the nerf bandwagon, how long have you been 51 now? :confused: I thought NIN/THF had no problem getting pt ... lol
Luckily SquareEnix isn't known to bend to the will of a few NA crybabys on message boards when balancing the game.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Navia
And since Cloak is jumping on the nerf bandwagon, how long have you been 51 now? :confused: I thought NIN/THF had no problem getting pt ... lol
Ouch. That's a low blow. :dead:

[Bamce Sylph]

i'm really gonna hope that this doesn't turn into a fistfight from that one, but perhaps just a case of the out of date sig, thats why i don't put my job info in there, /shrug

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Navia
Wow look at all the NIN/WAR haters come of of the woodwork, asking for a utsusemi nerf. You people have been around EQ too long, where pulling rumors out of your ass and asking for nerfs is an innate reflex when a job doesn't fit your vision.

You think this power comes cheap - it doesn't, thats what balances things. Ninja's massive consumption of powders keeps the tradeskillers happy which keeps the gilfarmers harvesting materials for them in turn happy.
And since Cloak is jumping on the nerf bandwagon, how long have you been 51 now? :confused: I thought NIN/THF had no problem getting pt ... lol
Luckily SquareEnix isn't known to bend to the will of a few NA crybabys on message boards when balancing the game.

Hahahah! All I can say is Ditto, though I probably would not have been as direct as that. ;) Thanks Navia for saying what I wanted to say but probably wouldn't have.

Edit: Scratch that! I'm gonna say something.

It really annoys me to see these kinds of posts advocating the nerfing of utsusemi coming from the likes of ninja n00bs, nin/thf's and non ninja's totally! I mean who are you guys to say what ninja should and should not be? Have you guys even tried playing nin/war to high level? Maybe it was too hard for you, i dunno, but regardless, you havent put in the time and effort we 60+ nin/war's have to work with the job "As it is" and succeed. Frankly you guys just dont know what it takes to be a successful ninja. If you did, you wouldn't be making the statements that you are now, cause you'd know that a ninja fits _NO_ other role in a good PT other than tank. And it takes a lot of skill to play that role well, meaning there are not many high level ninja, which makes ninja more elite and thats my main attraction to the job. If they nerfed utsusemi and turned it into another brainless melee job that any lazy player could get to 75 with, i'd stop playing it just for that reason. Would I be pissed? Sure! But I wouldn't whine about it, theres no point to that. SE makes the rules. The only choice you have as a player is to play by the rules, or not play at all.

[Pandar]

Originally posted by Kirk


Hahahah! All I can say is Ditto, though I probably would not have been as direct as that. ;) Thanks Navia for saying what I wanted to say but probably wouldn't have. agreed =]
we tank good cause we can afford it if you cant afford it go be a paladin

[LockeCole]

Originally posted by Bamce Sylph
y.
if people want ninjas for debuffs they're worseoff than ninja's thought. theives and higher level war's tend to sub ninja and they can debuff just as well. beyond elemental debuffs they get paralyze, slow, blind, which are all copies of whitemagic.

;; Have you tried debuffing with a gimped sub lately? I've been getting resisted at level 32 with capped ninjitsu once in a while~!! I can't imagine a level 60thf/30 nin actually succeeding in debuffing anything VT~IT with powders o_O

[Koyasha]

Well first, I didn't mean to say that I want Ninjas to be nerfed... I simply believe they're going to be changed regardless of what we want. I don't know this for certain, but it is my belief, at least for now, and I have spoken to and heard many other people who think the same thing, many pointing back to a few articles where Square supposedly said they were considering making a change. I don't have any evidence of it, but one rarely does in any of these games.

I don't mind the Ninja role as tank right now, and though I don't believe it's appropriate for the class, I wouldn't go asking for them to be changed if Ninjas are currently enjoying their role. Some people might, but I think that as long as someone is having fun and being effective, there's no need to screw them up. They're not unbalanced, as far as I've seen. I do, however, think the role is going to change regardless of our desires. That's the main reason I was talking with some friends about the Ninja, which brought me to this idea...which I decided to post here to see what the overall Ninja community thinks of it. The only reason for my post is that I think that Square intends to change Ninjas, and I thought some input on possible ways to change might influence them so that the change is something which may appeal to the Ninja population.

It's an interesting thought that debuffs would be stepping on Bard or Red Mage's toes. Red Mages more than Bards, since Bards have numerous things that they bring to a party besides their Threnodies. I hadn't really considered that aspect... The idea of debuffing them to something - that is, striking with a surprise attack and critically injuring the enemy (not by doing huge HP damage, but by reducing an ability) seems like an appropriate one for Ninja. It seems though, that there are some stats or abilities that Red Mages and Bards do not have the power to debuff (and no one currently does), and those may be excellent areas for the Ninja abilities to focus on.

Here's another thought...all monsters have various abilities that work like our weaponskills...what if the Ninja were to have the ability to make one of those unusable? No other class has the capacity to do that right now, and it seems like an interesting - and useful - ability. It could be overpowering, though...some monsters are hardly a challenge if their primary special attack is removed. On the other hand, I know that many areas and monsters are left alone, simply because of a particular special attack that people fear. If Ninjas could remove the threat of that special attack, it would make them almost necessary for hunting those areas, as well as making areas that are currently unused more populated.

Anyway, please don't take my post as a request for Ninjas to be nerfed or changed. See it more along the lines of, 'If Ninjas are going to be changed, how do we want them changed?'. If there are no such discussions, though, any change won't be able to take into account the opinions and ideas of the players, because we haven't bothered to make those ideas known. If Square intends to leave Ninjas the way they are, I have no problem with that.

[ninvampire]

The only change that should be made to the ninja class is giving us throwing weapon skills. Nerfing utsusemi is a incredibly aweful (edit :/) idea that will make ninjas worthless otherwise.

[Regulat0r]

Enjoy being a useless job other then for blink tanking Dirk =)

Just let these folks discuss, dont need to get all infuriated lol.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by LockeCole


;; Have you tried debuffing with a gimped sub lately? I've been getting resisted at level 32 with capped ninjitsu once in a while~!! I can't imagine a level 60thf/30 nin actually succeeding in debuffing anything VT~IT with powders o_O
I have been using elemental debuffs against VT-IT++ as a 33-36THF/NIN and 30-39RNG/NIN. Not once have they been resisted. My Ninjutsu skill is 25.

The one time I've EVER seen an elemental debuff resisted was when I was leveling NIN in Valkurm.

[Kiyosuki]

Saying that Ninja's arn't original now because they're considered "tanks" isn't really looking at the big picture I think. All physical classes can basically be split into two catagories, Damage Dealer's, or Tanks. ALL the Damage Dealer's have one ultimate purpose in mind, to just screw up the enemy. ALL tanks have one ultimate purpose in mind, to be the party bodyguard, basically the party's "Shield". However, while all the Damage dealer's are racked into one catagory, they all have uniquely different ways of dealing that damage that give them unique uses and places in a party. Its the exact same thing with tanks, even though Warrior's, Paladin's, and Ninja's all have the same goal they have very different ways of functioning that give them unique places in a party. Although thinking along the lines that all a frontline needs is Damage Dealer/Damage dealer/Tank can work to an extent, when you start getting higher you start really taking into thought how each dd/tank uniquely works because some work together much better than others do. Thats what gives each job, despite its common goal with others they're own unique gameplay and place in a party.

I have never heard of high level damage dealer's or Warrior's subbing Nin to enfeeble as well as Ninja mains. ^^; I think people who don't use this job past the 30's really don't know just how much of a difference the Ni enfeebles are in quality compared to Ichi. I think its actually almost wrong how much weaker the Ichi's are. The elemental enfeebles are so much better in the Ni's, and Kurayami and Hojo work twice as good as they're Ichi counterparts and come out in almost 1/3 the casting time it takes to cast Ichi. And only a Ninja main can use those as of now. They can sub it much later for Utsusemi Ni though, which is quite useful.

Ninja's really don't exactly seem like they're natural tanks but speedy type jobs in games tend to have surprising uses since speed is usually so useful. All that evasion plus massive amounts of blink and parrying, and spells that all go into making the enemy hit you even less just happen to make something very nice to concentrate hits into. Hey man, crazy stuff happens in video games, things are exploited. :3 Personally I wasn't that surprised this job fights so forwardly like a tank, Ninja's have been straight forward fighter's who use wacky abilities to confuse or cripple they're opponents lots of times. Just look at Strider. :biggrin: Ninja's being one hit kill monsters is an overused thing anyways, and its not how Ninja's have been used in FF games anyways.

One thing though I can see now having had a good bit of experience with this job, is that if Utsusemi was nerfed there is only one way the programmers can keep this job even remotely viable. Give them more unique enfeebles or play mechanics that are both powerful, and can't be duplicated by any other job.Even if the existing enfeebles get a power boost it can't take away from the fact that other jobs, mostly mage jobs, have spells that do the exact same thing by effect. The elemental Enfeebles are an original idea and very useful, but it just wouldn't be enough to keep the job afloat all by itself. As it is now, its fine. Ninja's are the only job that can blink tank like they do until level 72, and even then they're unique stats still make them uniquely viable for that function. The enfeebles all help keep the enemy at bay and seriously help out. But if you are confined to a damage dealing/backuptank position you have to have something more unique or it just wouldn't work. As it stands I've been put into a damage dealer position before, by both NA and JP parties but its only been as a last resort. I did pretty good with Shurikens and Duel Wield damage but if Ninja's were forced to do only that the fact is other job's have more to work with in that position. I do actually pretty good dph but none of the insane weapon skill strategies or job abilities. Yeah I can enfeeble and keep the Tank from being hit as much but so can a Mage, enfeebling in a tanking position is awsome because it gives you even more of an incentive to put it all on the enemy but in a damage dealer position its just not unique enough to stand on its own.
The elemental enfeebles are very useful but its just not enough. You get what I'm saying?

I also haven't heard anything about Ninja's having Utsusemi nerfed. The only time I could possibly see it happen is when Conflict is implemented, and there'd have to be some serious compensation to cover for blink's loss. If they didn't do anything else to the job and stop blink tanking I'd just quit. If I can't play my favorite job as anything more than a completely gimped job with no aparent strength of any kind then forget it. How long has the Ziratt expansion been out in Japan? Blink tanking I know was created pretty soon into the Ninja's existence, but I'd imagine if it was that much of a problem they would of done something by now.

They may change it, but like said in this post they'd need to give Ninja's something really serious to compensate for the loss. I bet thats why it hasn't been done yet because its a very tricky situation. They'd have to come up with something completely new to give the class to compensate.

Maybe it'll happen, maybe it won't. But until any kind of news comes up I don't think things should be taken beyond speculation.
I'd adapt but unless the compensation for blink tanking's loss was just *that* badass, I'd be pretty pissed too.

Yes a long post, but I haven't posted for a while so ...yeah...

[Koyasha]

Yep, I agree that the compensation needs to be pretty significant. Hell, maybe when I get around to Ninja, I'll enjoy the tanking and be annoyed if it's changed also.

But I wouldn't say that it won't be changed after being this way for such a long time. One only needs to look at Yokodama for an example of something that was a certain way for quite a while before it was changed. I also think that the reason it's taking so long to change is because they haven't yet come up with an idea to change it that won't completely gimp the class.

[ninvampire]

Yokodama is one thing ... it was fairly unbalacing especially since sneak attack is supposed to be back-stab. They fixed sneak attack, not yokodama. This was not a nerf.

Blink-tanking is another ... it wasn't intended, but isn't unbalanced either. No where in the description of utsusemi does it say "absorbs attacks, but only if you're not tanking." Altering utsusemi will ultimately be a nerf, not a fix.

The only thing I can see them doing to utsusemi to nerf it to not being viable for tanking purposely is making the shadows randomly absorb hits. This would be a huge-nerf and would throw ninja to below-bottom-rung in terms of usefulness.

Kiyouski, Utsusemi:Ni is level 37, so /NINs don't get it until level 74, not 72.

[Kiyosuki]

Yeah....74, 37+37. It was late. I find it kind of funny when all these Warrior/Ninja supporter's come forward saying they're going to completely replace me...for one whole level. Yeah!

Yokodama was simply abusing a glitch in the system. Not a huge glitch mind you, but an unintentional glitch in Sneak Attack that gave Thieves too many unfair advantages with no draw backs. Utsusemi's usage isn't a glitch at all, it was just a very unusual way of using an existing technique in a perfectly natural way. If it made Ninja's way too powerful then a nerf would be understandable, right now though its quite challenging to do the whole thing and its a purely skill based technique. Its not particularly exploitable as the other tanks still have they're own strengths that put them in favor in certain situations still.

People were speculating that Utsusemi would be nerfed for Conflict because it could potentially be a dangerously unbalancing thing in pvp regards. But I don't think you can provoke a pc. :biggrin: But maybe you will..like a temporary thing. I don't know, but I doubt it as of now. But even after Yokodama got taken away from Thieves, the Thf class still had unique and shining strengths that made them unique and effective on they're own for the most part. You can argue that after 60 other Melee's with /thf can do the same thing but a Thief can still at that point do what they can do real well. If Utsusemi was taken away the Ninja job would have almost nothing to make itself stand out. Duel Wield is nice, but the speed increases for the main job wouldn't be enough. You know, everything said above. It would basically make the class effectively useless unless it were subbed by the usual Rng Thf combo, but that wouldn't be fair at all to people playing this class higher.

[gomenasai]

hehe, something i've noticed, even when i'm asked to be the main tank and puller at the same time (i have a warrior subjobbed for emergencies) i don't find it to be a difficult job whatsoever, it's just a rythm. Though i do find it boring (except the pulling ^^).

Face it, utsu tanking (and the ninja job in entirety) is not the what these ninja pity parties say it is, don't let them victimize themselves, it's not that hard (especially after you get utsu: ni) :P

Try being a bard or white mage and have everyone complain to you when you're doing your best, that's hard ^^;

[Kirk]

Gomen, you're still only a level 40ish ninja. You haven't even gotten Hojo: Ni yet. Wait till the 60's where you gotta burn 30~40k gil an xp party and fight mobs that can clean you out in a heart beat without utsusemi up. Trust me the job of ninja tank gets much more difficult the higher you go up. So much so that only die hard players who really love ninja tanking will put up with it. Dont underestimate the job yet, you are only just beginning.

[ninvampire]

As I was internet-less earlier today I was flipping through the Ninja Gaiden instruction manual and remembered the glory of the double image from Ninja Gaiden II.

If they were to make any kind of change to utsusmei to pull a ninja away from tanking, this might be the only worthwhile change. Instead of utsusemi being used defensively, being used offensively.

But the last thing FFXI needs is to convert a tanking class into a pure damage dealing class. There are far too many as is right now.

[JexIntrepid]

Seems to be just suspicion but....Koyasha is a pld, right? Doesn't claim to dislike tanking right?

I've come to believe Koyasha has just planted this post as a means to make pld's uber all the time at tanking. Granted you lucky plds never have to worry about lfg, except for the now expensive competition of ninja tanks, and you now want to come up with plans of turning a tanking job into what?

I'm all about making ninja's have an alternate support job in a group that is more significant than the decent ninjitsu they have. But telling all those hard working nin/war tanks out there that they've shelled their money for nothing now cuz they wont be able to do it again....that's just rippin ppl off. Blink shouldn't be nerfed, unless they're going to nerf it when subbed.

I don't see how it's fair that there's only 2 competitors for a pld: war (yeah right...only at lvl 74 do they get even with war/nin), and good wealthy nin/wars

Meanwhile us sam, mnks, drks, drgs, and rngs have to compete all day to get a spot.

Ninjas should tank, BUT also be given awesome status effect throwing ws(which last longer on mob) than normal ws with katanas, and their ninjitsu should really be tweaked a bit, so ninjas could have option of being a full blink tank or a ninjitsu freak.

Pulling? Anyone can do it, even whm with blink+ stoneskin, and Rngs are best for that, and if you have a thf, the tank will easily get the hate.
Making ninjas best pullers would seem good on paper, but group effectiveness would be an issue, so they'd need to be best pullers + blink tanks or best pullers + awesome ninjitsu that does more enfeebling and throwing ws.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by ninvampire
Yokodama is one thing ... it was fairly unbalacing especially since sneak attack is supposed to be back-stab. They fixed sneak attack, not yokodama. This was not a nerf.
I'm aware that it's called "backstab" or something similar in the JP client, but Sneak Attack itself was originally written so that if you attacked an enemy from outside of their cone of vision, and you did not have aggro, you would get the SA crit. This is a totally consistent implementation of a "sneak attack," and Yokodama satisfied this condition perfectly.

The real glitch in Yokodama was TA. TA is "supposed" to require you to attack a mob from behind another player, but it only requires you to be looking at another player when you attack, even if you are in front of them. (lazy coding, or possibly an ease of gameplay issue). And the Yokodama change didn't even fix this! They just decided to nerf SA because it was the easier solution.

[Koyasha]

Seems to be just suspicion but....Koyasha is a pld, right? Doesn't claim to dislike tanking right?

Actually, I'm beginning work on Ninja now - though I'll probably stop pretty soon as I'm low on money, so I'll need to farm up a lot. This discussion has prompted me to see what it's like for Ninjas. So ye'll probably see me looking for advice on how to be a good Ninja soon. ^_^ Yeah, my (very) long-term goal is to level up all my classes...so I got a lot of work and learning ahead of me.

[Lil Dreamer]

Originally posted by gomenasai
hehe, something i've noticed, even when i'm asked to be the main tank and puller at the same time (i have a warrior subjobbed for emergencies) i don't find it to be a difficult job whatsoever, it's just a rythm. Though i do find it boring (except the pulling ^^).

Face it, utsu tanking (and the ninja job in entirety) is not the what these ninja pity parties say it is, don't let them victimize themselves, it's not that hard (especially after you get utsu: ni) :P

Try being a bard or white mage and have everyone complain to you when you're doing your best, that's hard ^^;

somehow i don't believe u ever sub /WAR with your NIN. it has been proven, time and time again, that a /WAR sub has better advantages and benefits than a /THF sub even when you're NOT tanking.

unless all u ever do is: Utsu, voke, utsu, voke then blink tanking can be a very boring job. but then if that's all u EVER use out of your arsenal while tanking, that just means u suck as a blink tank and as a NIN altogether.

i fail to see what makes /THF "less" boring than a /WAR blink tanking. i mean really... what is it that YOU do for an exp PT that a /WAR can't do?? other than make a laughably nerfed SA?

[Rakhir]

Whats with all the barking like little dogs at Koyasha? He's just trying to discuss stuff in a reasonable manner. Are you guys really that insecure about our abilties that our job uses that you have to defend them so harshly?:(

[Lil Dreamer]

Originally posted by Rakhir
Whats with all the barking like little dogs at Koyasha? He's just trying to discuss stuff in a reasonable manner. Are you guys really that insecure about our abilties that our job uses that you have to defend them so harshly?:(

of course!!! because as of now NIN without blink tanking is one of the worst and useless jobs in FFXI.

no NIN ability right now other than blink tanking makes us a commodity in anyone's PT. at least when u add tanking to other NIN abilities, it makes the job that much more useful in a PT.

the NIN job has nothing, NOTHING else going for it right now other than blink tanking that makes PTs want to invite them. so yes, we ARE insecure because our jobs are being threatened to just being a gimped dmg dealer or a gimped enfeebler.

[Navia]

Originally posted by Kirk
Gomen, you're still only a level 40ish ninja. You haven't even gotten Hojo: Ni yet. Wait till the 60's where you gotta burn 30~40k gil an xp party and fight mobs that can clean you out in a heart beat without utsusemi up. Trust me the job of ninja tank gets much more difficult the higher you go up. So much so that only die hard players who really love ninja tanking will put up with it. Dont underestimate the job yet, you are only just beginning.
1k xp from 44, I can already see it getting more difficult.
Went deep into Crawlers Next last night and setup the pt in a tunnel with witchHazels in it, and pulled Labyrinth lizards.

Double attacking, silence, petrify,poison,ae fire breath lizzies are a serious challenge to blink tank - they make anticans look easy :sweat:
I had to use a few echo drops when the whm wasnt quick enough with silena so I could utsusemi, and landing enfeeble was required while the pull was coming in so I didnt lose all my shadows in the first 5 seconds - crazy stuff.
Crawlers/crabs/beetles are so much easier to tank but I enjoyed the challenge and the 8-10 items dropping from each lizard kill :spin:
I can only imagine it gets harder :sweat: - Oh and a big 'lol' at whoever says whm job is hard, it bored me to tears it was so easy compared to nin/war.

[qweezy]

Bards are so easy, the only time they really do any work is when you pull more then 1.

[Kirk]

Hey Navia:

I just read in your sig you are 0-5 with that beryl footed whatever NM. I want to get a Hototogisu badly. Whats involved in popping it? I read you need to get a tonberry rattle or something. Can you give us a little walk through?

[gomenasai]

*shrug* i know what i subjob and what i don't :P

but no, ninja hasn't been too hard, money aside, and yes, i do enjoy the thief subjob more, and the sneak attack helps my weapon skills do 200-300 damage (normal 80-130).

And it gives really nice evasion too ^^

it's a preference, really. though both sides have their advantages and disadvantages. i know nothing i say to a lot of you people will even be acknowledged as based on experience, but i haven't found the job or being useful to a party difficult. things might change in the next few levels but they surely haven't in the last 45 :P

Still, i keep a warrior subjob ready in case we need a tank, or perhaps don't have a thief to change direction of the hate, but more times than not we have either if not both, so everyone is happy :)

And both ways i use just as much money, go figure :P

[Navia]

Originally posted by Kirk
Hey Navia:

I just read in your sig you are 0-5 with that beryl footed whatever NM. I want to get a Hototogisu badly. Whats involved in popping it? I read you need to get a tonberry rattle or something. Can you give us a little walk through?

-Look for Tonberry Rattle by searching the 1st floor, running around hitting tab key is good for this.
-Then head to the 'paintbrush room' on next floor and clear it out.
-Trade rattle to the to the ??? in paintbrush room to spawn NM tonberry - ninja tonberry is a tough solo for a 70ish player depending on job.
On the way to kill leviathan once I saw a 75pld solo it but nearly got 1shotted by their stab move (he used invincible right after it hit him).
Level 55-60s you need 1 very good pt at a minimum. Blinking, throat stab and ninja 2hr are some of his tricks. Safest way to kill is to use BST, or a SMN that can maintain carbuncle summon with no mp drain and just have them chain summon to kill it :p

-Drop rate is god awful so dont get mad if it doesnt drop, i'd suggest making the rounds hunting 'Death from above' for its dagger and some other NM like the tonberry that can drop the Hocho katana.
Alot of the cool ninja katanas come from uggalepih/Den of Rancor it seems so any serious ninja will spend alot of time here I think.

It will be nice to get the katana when it finally drops, I see alot of 71-75 ninja still using it in 2nd hand so I look forward getting alot of use out of it for 15+ levels

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Navia

-Look for Tonberry Rattle by searching the 1st floor, running around hitting tab key is good for this.


The rattle is not dropped by a monster? How does this work? Does a ??? point randomly spawn where you receive the rattle when you click on it or something? Is it the same place everytime?

[Navia]

Its a ground spawn item, hence the 'tabbing' to locate it (also rare+ex). It does not spawn in the same place also. Rattle item takes up to 2hr to show up again.
The ??? in the paintbrush room the rattle goes with always seems to be up thankfully.

[vudoodoodoo]

It's funny how alot of people w/ a certain job wants SE to nerf some other job.
They wouldn't be too hapy if SE nerfed their job, though.

[Peanut_Midgard]

Instead of nerfing NIN's blink tanking, improve the tanking ability of PLD and make them the undoubted best tank ever 90% of the time (for post level 37 that is, pre 37 PLD/WAR are better tanks). THEN, give NIN another purpose in a party, either strengthen their other areas or give them new abilities that are valuable to a party.

In any case, I don't think NIN blink tank is overpowered, but I don't think it fits the idea of a ninja. Now I could be wrong but a ninja in most people's minds is that they move very fast, jump from rooftop to rooftop, hide in shadow and deliver deadly attacks. Blink tanking... sure there will be times for that, but really flavor wise, a ninja shouldn't be confronting an enemy face on every single time. He's not really stealthy if that's the case :)

The job is not broken, not unbalanced/overpowered, but I think it's definitely out of flavor. I don't know if pulling fits in the flavor either (in my mind). It's a toughie >< I can't really thinking of a good contribution for ninja to have.

[Bamce Sylph]

i'd rather them leave the ninja alone, its hard enough to find a good healer and a tank when u have 2.5 options for tank (the .5 is war b/c of lots of stuff) limiting that to 1.5 tanks will only make getting pt's harder, longer, less rewarding etc etc etc