my RDM wishlist for the new expansion

[Dtec]

1. Refresh II
I mean, if a WHM can get Regen II, and a Ninja gets Utsusemi: Ni (and Utsusemi: San, which they *will* get), why don't we get Refresh II?

2. B rating in 1H Sword
If a RDM's AF weapon is a sword, why don't they upgrade it so we can do alittle more damage.

3. Ability to cast en spells on party members
If the RDM is supposed to be a buff/debuff job, the only buff we get is haste (big whoop), protect, and shell. If we could cast en spells on party members, we would be better competition for bards.

4. A form of warp/teleport.
If a WHM can get teleports, and a BLM can get warps, RDM should be something. Maybe a direct warp to towns :D

If anybody has anything to add, add!

P.S. Please read this thread Square Enix. :D

[Nataka]

I mean, if a WHM can get Regen II, and a Ninja gets Utsusemi: Ni (and Utsusemi: San, which they *will* get), why don't we get Refresh II?

It would be nice but i think it'd be un-necessary, as refresh sounds like it cures enough MP. The only time this might be worth it is if Refresh is suddenly able to be used from a sub job (you would have to be level 82). But honestly I doubt refresh 2 would be much better, and parties would want whm/rdms and blm/rdm, not rdms :/

2. B rating in 1H Sword

It's already b o-o A small increase to b+ wouldnt help much I dont think.. And i dont think we need more red mages that just cast enthunder and start meleeing. I hate that more then anything (when I'm not the only red mage).

3. Ability to cast en spells on party members

I dunno, think about how much of a load you'd have on you if you had to do that to o_o; Imagine en-spelling 4 melees... Though, at the same time I think +4 damage wouldnt be worth using the 60 mp + time you'd need to cast the en spells, enfeebles, keep up refresh... I think must of us would go insane trying to figure out what was most important to cast (obviously en spells last but the melees would complain a lot X_X).

4. A form of warp/teleport.

I see this as unbalancing. We get them through a sub job, and really i dont see the point in us having them. For transport purposes in a party, it'd give a whm even LESS to do. Same with black mage for escape (until red mages get it).


I think if we got any more spells from other classes we'd become to unbalanced. THis is just my opinion obviously, but i rather not give people any more reason to hate red mages.

[Dtec]

I dunno, think about how much of a load you'd have on you if you had to do that to o_o; Imagine en-spelling 4 melees... Though, at the same time I think +4 damage wouldnt be worth using the 60 mp + time you'd need to cast the en spells, enfeebles, keep up refresh... I think must of us would go insane trying to figure out what was most important to cast (obviously en spells last but the melees would complain a lot X_X).</

Well if you think about it, the en spells do alot more damage than +4, especially if you do the correct en spell corresponding to the monsters elemental weakness. And you wouln't have to do it to everybody, just the heavy damage hitters (i.e. DRKs, DRGs, SAMs, MNKs...). I would love this idea. Image a group looking for a 6th member and they had to choose between a BRD and RDM, and the DRK saying "get the RDM, i like the way he buffs up my scythe :D). Yes, one can only dream -_-

And I was joking about the teleport/warp thing lol I already have a BLM sub so I'm happy with my warp, I just hate waiting for the airship everytime I wanna travel to a different town.

[Elrundir]

1. Refresh II
I mean, if a WHM can get Regen II, and a Ninja gets Utsusemi: Ni (and Utsusemi: San, which they *will* get), why don't we get Refresh II?

I kind of agree, but I also see what Nataka is saying. Refresh II would be handy I guess, but if it were added, it would probably be a very high-level spell (possibly higher than the current level limit). And if they go raising the level cap too much, people will have access to Refresh from their subs, and I think that would be a serious blow to RDMs everywhere. ;_;

2. B rating in 1H Sword

Heh, while it's true that we already have a B-rating in 1H Sword, I see what you mean. ^^ I don't think bumping the rating up to an A would suddenly turn us into pure damage-dealers, so for the most part I don't foresee our role as mainly casters at the higher levels changing that much if they were to bump it up a bit. =/ Not necessary, of course, but it'd be nice.

3. Ability to cast en spells on party members

Yeah, that would put a definite strain on what RDMs already have to do for enfeebling and buffing.... but why not add en-ra spells? ^^ Takes care of the whole party in one fell swoop. And if we're better buffers, stat-wise, than WHMs, shouldn't we get at least that? ^^

[Vaiyo]

Well if you think about it, the en spells do alot more damage than +4, especially if you do the correct en spell corresponding to the monsters elemental weakness.

En-spell damage is based on one's enhancing skill - a skill which anything other than a RDM & WHM would seriously lack (either due to the fact that most jobs do not cast enhancing spells, or the enhance cap is low). Having close to max enhance skill, my en-spells only hit for 15 max without the item enhancements; imagine how much lower it would be for a straight out melee such as DRK or THF.

[EDIT] Well, this is assuming that the en-spell damage will be based on the person being casted, not the RDM casting it.

And you wouln't have to do it to everybody, just the heavy damage hitters (i.e. DRKs, DRGs, SAMs, MNKs...).

DRKs, DRGs, SAMs all use 2-handers; WAR uses 2-handers most of the time too. The only ones that would be worth casting on would be ninjas, monks, or anyone who can dual-wield fast weapons ... else the numbers just won't really add up to more than one extra swing from each of the 2-handed weapon wielders.

I would love this idea. Image a group looking for a 6th member and they had to choose between a BRD and RDM, and the DRK saying "get the RDM, i like the way he buffs up my scythe :D).

I agree, most melees would love this. However, from a job standpoint, I have enough spells to drain my MP on, I'd rather not have to drain it any faster.

If I had to suggest a change, I would make Refresh II. However, I would not make it cure anymore any faster than it is already doing - continue doing 3mp per tick with the same time intervals, but make it last longer (I'm not sure how long Refresh lasts, but maybe extend it by half?) - that would be really nice so that I can sit down a bit after every fight.

For example, I refresh 4 members of my static party and we pull constantly, so it's pointless for me to sit. I have to budget my MP so that by the time my Convert pops back up again, I'm just about to run out of MP; if we extend the duration with Refresh II, by maybe 30 seconds, that'll allow me to sit and heal up a bit of MP so I can maybe add haste into my mix of spells casted every battle. But as of right now, since I'm so busy casting enfeebles, refresh and mana bursting, I do not sit to heal MP so my group WHM end up doing the haste (which seems fine, since he's usually sitting at 75% mp at the end of the fight, then by the time a pull comes through he's at 100% again).

[MMan530]

I think Dtec is on the right track. It'd be nice to be able to do a little more buffing.

As far as a Refresh II, it would make sense. If the levels ever get as high as level 82, Red mages will lose their best spell. Bards get Mage Ballad II, and can cast both Ballad I and Ballad II. I don't think Refresh II would be able to stack with Refresh I.

I'd like to see some higher level spells that are RDM only. As its already been discussed, its hard to really provide a unique benefit as a red mage 55+. Bards can dispel, bards can refresh (Ballad I + Ballad II > Refresh), and our nukes really start to fall behind. Don't get me wrong, red mages are great... but it'd be nice to actually get Refresh II, Graviga (yes, its actually in the game), etc etc. What about abilities? Could there be a spell that red mages could use to actually see the buffs on enemies? That'd set them apart in a non-critical way.

I have a feeling that red mages will really start to be useless before they are given something to set them apart. This is what had to happen to get us Refresh and Convert!

[Dtec]

What about abilities? Could there be a spell that red mages could use to actually see the buffs on enemies? That'd set them apart in a non-critical way.

This is a great idea! Kind of like the way previous FF games had "scan" or something to that effect. That would set our dispel apart from a BRD's dispel (aside from the fact that our dispel has a waay lower recast time.)

[Koy]

3. Ability to cast en spells on party members

Well if you look at the RDM only spells minus gravity and refresh, they get the Bar- spells (you only), protect and shell (1 person only), and a few other self buffing spells. It seems to me that RDM only spells are more along the lines of helping the RDM without helping others. (Go Go selfish RDM's :p )

[Zempten]

I don't know about those but this is just my wishlist for a RDM

1: 1 more job ability. I'm thinking something like "Aceleration Seal" 1 spell cast with 0 cast time. recast time 10 mins and gained at the lvl of 50 or 60( we wouldn't want others to sub a RDM just for this ability). Sort of like a BLMs "Elemental Seal" and a WHMs "Divine Seal". But this is something only that I wish and not something I need

2: A revised version of Refresh where it will be based on enhancing but the base regain is 150. So what I mean is as your enhancing goes up, the more MP you get. OR a Refresh 2, but as others have said only if they make the level cap go up.

3: Since we are masters of enfeebling. I feel we shuold have upgrades to the enfeebling line of spells. Slow 2, Paralyze 2, Gravity 2. Something along those l

En line of spells are what makes a RDM special, RDM only. RDMs are not a buffer. If you noticed, Haste, Protect, and Shell all belongs to WHMs , who are the natural buffers and healers. They recieve it earliar then we do. If you wish for us to be able to cast en line spells on others, you might as well wish we can cast Phalax on others as well.

Now as far as meeles go, we RDMs are not full meeles. We are only the best meele out of the caster category ( SMN, WHM, BLM ). There is not really a point in raising the rating of this weapon. Instead, perhaps it would be better for us to recieve WS that are related to enfeebling things. Perhaps a WSs (plural) that we only get after 50 that adds in damage and enfeelbing spell. But this is not something I feel I must have. It is a want, not a need

These are my thoughts. Hope you are not offended by it or anything. SOrry if it does

BTW, some of these ideas I have gained from others. So they are not just my idea but others just as well.

[Apple Pie]

3. Ability to cast en spells on party members
Interesting but I'm afraid if this cause us to have almost no time to melee even in a safe situation since we're more occupied with spell-casting (3 to 4 en- spells during the battle?).

My wishlist is something like this.

1) New RDM-only spells

Reflect: Reflect enemies' spells twice
Endark
Enlight

2) Job trait - Refresh Bonus

LV60: 4MP/3sec -> 200MP/150sec
LV70: 5MP/3sec -> 250MP/150sec

3) MB with enfeebling spells

Doubles the effect.

MB with Paralyze: Paralyzed more often
MB with Dia / Bio: Doubles slip damage and effect (5% -> 10%, 10% -> 20% decrease)
MB with Slow: Doubles delay
MB with Glavity: Doubles effect (Lowering 10% evasion)
MB with Poison/Poison II: Doubles slip damage
etc....

4) Vorpal Blade without /DRK, /PLD, or /WAR

For better gilfarming :P

5) Job ability - Enhancing Seal (LV40/Reuse: 15 minutes)

- Doubles the effect of some enhancing spells

Blink, Bar-, En-, Phalanx, Protect, Regen, Shell, Stoneskin

Shouldn't be used as RDM sub. You know why. It's mostly for soloing purpose.

How're these?

[TMPikachu]

NO!

NO enthunders for anyone but redmages!

a B+ in one handed swords would be nice though.

Or an A

You know, why not an A in swords? We've got the fancy AF clothing for swishy pokey action! Without any offensive boosts, we'd still stink in hth.

En II spells should be added in just for the heck of it, and to make soloing a bit easier later on.

[flonne]

Gooo Apple! I like those ideas ~

Its true as mentioned earlier after 55+ RDM's are kind of lacking in the spell department. A lot of the time when I join a pt they end up saying stuff like "ohh too bad we dont have a bard for acc+" etc etc. It kind of makes me feel somewhat useless hehe

RDM's really do need some new spells or something, as posted in another thread we really don't have much to show for as we approach 75 :)

I'm still enjoying it regardless as the ability to solo stuff is just sooo worth it!

Reallylooking forward to them adding some stuff, I hope they do but I think they should first fix up DRG to make it more appealing! I find myself favouring other melee jobs over DRG at the moment
.. which kind of sucks for the drgs who put so much time in leveling their character :(

[Bamce Sylph]

just a small note, stacking ballad and ballad2=3mp/tick which is the same as refresh, i see refresh being unbalancing maybe refreshga, but that would be a high high level spell, some kinda ja beside convert would be nice too

[Vaiyo]

2) Job trait - Refresh Bonus

LV60: 4MP/3sec -> 200MP/150sec
LV70: 5MP/3sec -> 250MP/150sec

Good idea, probably the best I've seen ... I would bet that this would never happen though since it'd cost us nothing for huge gains. Maybe an additional 15 or 25mp at 60 & 70, or 3 every 5 levels starting with 45 (21 additional altogether); 100mp gain would be crazy good.

5) Job ability - Enhancing Seal (LV40/Reuse: 15 minutes)

- Doubles the effect of some enhancing spells

I'd rather see a Crippling Seal (enfeeble) instead, but it's a pretty cool idea.

[Apple Pie]

Maybe an additional 15 or 25mp at 60 & 70, or 3 every 5 levels starting with 45 (21 additional altogether); 100mp gain would be crazy good.
I agree.

Extending its duration should be more realistic then(= not considered to be overpowered). How about something like this.

LV41: 150MP/150sec (50 ticks)
LV51: 165MP/165sec (55 ticks)
LV61: 180MP/180sec (60 ticks)
LV71: 195MP/195sec (65 ticks)

With this enhancement, we'll be able to have more free time. We can either melee, nuke, rest or drink a cup of coffee.
I'd rather see a Crippling Seal (enfeeble) instead, but it's a pretty cool idea.
Well, I seemed to forget our biggest advantage. What a bad RDM I was.... :P

Yeah, a seal of enfeeble should be something we look for first. It must be very useful for NM/HNM battles.

[Discordian]

Elemental Seal works just fine as far as I'm concerned. I'd actually think a "Instant Cast" ability would be nice. Cast 1 spell without delay and without timer just like chainspell, only works with 1 spell though.

We'd also see more whm/rdm and blm/rdm with the addition on a 10 minute ability.

[Vaiyo]

The problem with Elemental Seal is that a RDM must sub BLM to get that ability.

An Enfeebling Seal would make it so that a RDM can have a focus ability specifically aimed at its strong point (enfeebles) without giving people who subs WHM (or anything else for that matter) the ability to use it for nuking or whatever else.

It only makes sense - WHM gets a seal for heals, BLMs gets a seal for spells that they use, RDMs get a seal for enfeebles. Although now that I think about it I can kinda speculate why RDMs doesn't have a seal ability - BLM's seal ability works for everything besides heals.

[wraith203]

1) Definitely more spells, specifically: class-unique spells. I noticed with the last patch, it seemed like every caster got something except redmage.

Refresh 2 - would be very nice, but shouldn't stack with Refresh. Reasons for not stacking are, it would be annoying to cast both on all that need it, and it'd be too much recovery.

Gravity 2

Hastega

Quick - Whatever action the target does next, they do it twice. Like two weapon skills, or a double cast of fire2(without waiting for the spell to cooldown, but going through the casting twice). It would be hard to coordinate effectively(macros would help), but I think it would be really cool to use.

2) More job powers. I'd like to see <Enhancing Seal> and <Crippling Seal>

<ES>: make the next enhancing spell affect the entire party(even if it only normally affects the redmage).

<CS>: Double debuff effectiveness(someone mentioned this above). But instead of the usual 10min cooldown, maybe make this a 5min. Although, if they gave it extra chance to land, 10min or more would seem appropriate.

[Silverquick]

hehe,

Well I doubt we could get Vorpal Blade, it would be kind of like asking for a Dragoon's Penta, still I see why one would ask.

Outside that I am pretty much in agreement with a lot of Grendal's list.

Being able to cast EN-Spells on others would be nice, however I am afraid there is little time as is just due to refreshing and Hasting plus enfeebling, so...

The only way we could get something like that which would have value is if it we're akin to a Protectra type of EN-spell. Like... EnSpellra versions.... then it would actually work out well.

[kraazo]

Now, i know someone mentioned EnLight and EnDark, and a bunch of people mentioned raising our Sword skill(it'll never happen), but I've got a different idea to make Meleeing as RDM quite quite worthwhile: EnAspir.

Now, you all are probably thinking, "BULL CRAP! Talk about uberness!!!! But hear me out. In a higher level PT, (post refresh, at least), how many swings do you actually get to take when you melee? maybe 10? with having refresh cycles going, enfeebling, and backup curing, that's almost all your time in battle Casting spells. Now, if you had EnAspir, say, the max you can drain is 1/2 the max damage of your normal EnElemental spell. (i.e Unresisted Enthunder does 8 dmg per swing, Unresisted EnAspir would do 4 Mp drained). I can't decide whether i'd like to have this work exactly the same way as Aspir, where it only works on Mage creatures... but i suppose that'd be the most viable way to make it work, so you're not just Aspiring off of pure warriors.

This would be obviously beneficial when fighting caster-type monsters, but would ALSO give you a reason/excuse to Melee when NOT fighting Mage monsters(to level up your sword skill so you can HIT the monsters when they show up to be Aspired).

So that's MY proposal, and i don't really find it all that overwhelmingly tide-turning for the RDM. But I'm overall quite pleased with RDM as it is, but, think of it... with EnAspir, we'd NEVER have a reason to simply "sit back and be one of the mages." If you think about it, RDM is most closely related to Bard (in a sense), and you don't see Bards just sitting in the background singin a stationary concert for quadavs, he's running around doin his grand tour, but afterwards, he settles in to melee-mode until it's time to do the rounds again. I think what i ask is reasonable, and would make Magelee (patent pending ^^) a viable and almost Vital part of RDM's arsenal ^^.

[Apple Pie]

And all mages subbing RDM start to melee?

Sounds fun but may be annoying to frontliners.

[uhsieh]

EnAspir might in fact still be overpowered.... Just think of RDMs who solo HNMs....

[uhsieh]

[Sorry double posted]

[Tan'o]

EnAspir might in fact still be overpowered.... Just think of RDMs who solo HNMs....

I don't think it'll ever be possible for one RDM to solo a HNM...O.o

[Discordian]

If rdm got crippling seal it would make blm even more powerful as a subjob.

Crippling Seal Drop Gravity
Elemental Seal Silence

you'd get two seals that do the same, think of it as a JA that would be 5 minutes instead of 10 minutes because you can get it twice.

Something like a Instant Cast Seal could work for all RDM spells. Cast another Refresh right after another one (same MP cost like normaly just doesn't have any cooldown or delay) or if Graivty doesn't stick you can try a second time. It goes back to the rdm 2-hour concept as well, just 1 spell.

[bonovoxpsu]

my thoughts on new spells and abilities...

well, lets face it, post 41, rdm doesn't get ANYTHING truely ground breaking. in fact, we only get our sub's abilities after that AND we don't get any true rdm exclusive spells (except barpetrify and barvirus... blech >_< ).

sooo, why not add some high lvl enfeebles or high lvl abilities? well, i like these:



instant cast seal - not sure how i would do this, but i like the idea of it. fits the whole rdm FFXI persona. basically, this JA would allow the rdm to chain cast the next 3 spells, no cast time, no cooldown on those spells... maybe 4 maybe 5, again, not sure on the number. but make it something worthwhile (while not making too uuber ;) ), give it the usual 10 min timer too - heck, maybe even 15-20min, it is sounding a bit uuber to begin with. i would want this to be a high lvl spell, like lvl 50 maybe?

crippling seal - now HERE'S a good idea. excellent post whoever came up with that. this could be the lvl 10 spell equivalent.

only problem i see here is doesn't elemental seal help enfeebles as well as elemental spells? square would have to definitely seperate the two and not allow ele. seal to help enfeebles and crippling seal to help elementals. might make some noobish mages look foolish.


gravity 2 - a big DUH here. even at lvl 49 (dinged last night), i get questions of "what does gravity do" then someone answers "makes them move slow" o_O. however, make a grav2, put it at lvl 49 (no rdm spells there :D ), give it a DOT (or have it yank down DEX a bit too ^^), and finally make it costly enough to justify it all. soemthing like 55-60 mp. yeah, i could dig that.



paralyzega, blindga, GRAVITYGA, slowga - basically enfeeble-ga. makes sense right? not sure just how useful it would be, but hey, i think this would add a tiny bit of usefulness.

i am NOT asking for all of these. just one more JA, and a few more spells is all i ask. i can't really think of any other spells that could be balanced - maybe all lvl 2 enfeebles (obvious MP cost raised). but grav2 should be there i think.

there's my $.02

[Vaiyo]

only problem i see here is doesn't elemental seal help enfeebles as well as elemental spells? square would have to definitely seperate the two and not allow ele. seal to help enfeebles and crippling seal to help elementals. might make some noobish mages look foolish.

Yes, Elemental Seal does help with enfeebles.

I mentioned it before, too, that to use Elemental Seal a RDM would have to sub BLM; which, to me as a RDM/WHM, I am out of luck when Sleep & Sleep II just refuse to land, or a critical slow.

Getting 'Crippling Seal' as a RDM job ability would allow the rest of the us (those that do not sub BLM) the ability to use a Seal which will utilize our greatest strength, and at the same time not allowing us the extra ability to nuke better (like it was meant to be for BLMs or those who sub BLM).

[EDIT] By the way, about those who mentioned level II debuff spells, enfeebles are already based on the caster's enfeeble skill ... since RDMs have higher enfeeble skill cap than anyone else, our enfeebles are already stronger and better than any other jobs (ie. WHM, BLM, or those that sub those two jobs). So in a sense, we already have level II abilities ... and do not need spells that are labeled as 'II' and cost more MP.

[Discordian]

I go back to my original point on Crippling Seal. No job abilities are shared by jobs that I know of. They are all unique. Crippling Seal and Elemental Seal would essentially be the same. If you want Elemental Seal you'll have to sub blm.

If they tweek Elemental Seal that would be a major change in the game for blm/whm and whm/blm in terms of attempting to get silence to stick.

[kraazo]

To respond to Apple Pie:

True, i imagine that many WHMs or BLMs would sub /rdm and use EnAspir as a means of showing that they should melee in combat... but let's look at what will actually end up happening when/if Enaspir is introduced:

Whm/rdm - will retain the WHM's poor weapon caps, which means when they are not casting cures or whatever WHMs cast(not meaning to sound noobish, i just don't want to list the spells WHMs cast), they will be meleeing, which will result in the following : Miss, Miss, Miss, MIss, hit for 0 damage, miss... etc.
Another aspect is the spells/job abilities a WHM/RDM would lose as opposed to a WHM/blm:

Warp(being a RDM/blm, i know the worth of this spell)
Conserve MP (Any mage knows that this is a very very hard to replace job trait.)
Aspir (Not at that level yet, but i know it's important.

They'd be losing a lot. They couldn't make the extra pocket change as a Teleportaxi, and they'd also end up getting less raw MP from the RDM sub instead of the BLM sub.

Another POV to look at this: Armor Equips.

RDMs can obviously equip more armor types(like harnesses) which provide sufficient DEF to survive an AOE or two, which WHM simply CANNOT. No matter how you tweak your Equip to get some more defense, but... looking at what that does- reduces the inventory space you might use for +MP or +MND or +anything actually USEFUL to a mage.

Agh... I'm posting from the middle of History class.... and i'm drawing a Writer's Block... I think i'll post more later.

In short, Being a Meleeing WHM/rdm for EnAspir is going to end up as a gimped way of playing your job, and as we know, there is a ton of that running around (a few comes to mind, Dragoon/rdm, DRK/blm(wtf), RDM/nin(to a lesser degree). /end

[Vaiyo]

In response to Discordian:

I go back to my original point on Crippling Seal. No job abilities are shared by jobs that I know of. They are all unique. Crippling Seal and Elemental Seal would essentially be the same. If you want Elemental Seal you'll have to sub blm.

Well, Crippling Seal (in my mind) would only work for enfeebles (ie. paralyze, slow, dia, blind, silence and whatever other BLM spells that fall into the enfeebling skill), while Elemental Seal for a fact work with any spells that pure BLMs themselves are capable of casting.

The issue here isn't that 'if you want elemental seal, sub BLM'. I for one am a RDM/WHM, and I love that combo - I could care less if my next nuke does not hit nearly as hard as a BLM's nuke; but I would care (and I think all RDMs would) if my slow does not land on a fast-hitting NM and my tank gets chewed up and spit out within a few seconds.

What I am visualizing is a high level (probably 60+ so that no one can sub RDM and get that ability) job ability for RDMs. To distinguish this theoretical Crippling Seal from Elemental Seal, Crippling Seal would only work for enfeebling spells, and perhaps adding an enhancing element to it so that the enfeeble spell will be much stronger used with Crippling Seal than it would be if used with Elemental Seal.

For example. If a BLM (or someone who subbed BLM) uses Elemental Seal + Paralyze, I should be able to overwrite his Paralyze with mine if I used Crippling Seal.

And in the end, this hypothetical Crippling Seal would give RDMs that do not want to sub BLM a seal ability which will utilize their greatest strength but not add to anything else (such as nuking). If one wanted to sub BLM and get both the Crippling & Elemental Seal, great; but those that choose to not sub BLM can still (and as things are right now, should) have a seal ability.

If they tweek Elemental Seal that would be a major change in the game for blm/whm and whm/blm in terms of attempting to get silence to stick.

I personally feel that this would be an appropriate change. RDMs are supposed to be the strongest as far as enfeebling is concerned ... making that change to Elemental Seal so that it does not work on enfeebling would take away none of a BLM's strengths (nuking), nor would it take away from a WHM's strength (healing) - all it would do is add to RDMs what they should do best.

In any case, though, it seems strange and out of place that Elemental Seal works on every spell other than heals.

If Crippling Seal is to be implemented, this would not affect the RDMs who subs BLM - because in losing the effect that Elemental Seals had on enfeebling spells, you gain back (and get better) with Crippling Seal.

BLM & WHM mains really wouldn't have to deal with that 'loss' either. Most BLMs have more than enough INT to land their spells (whereas a lot of RDMs sacrificed MND & INT in order to gain MP), and most WHMs have more than enough MND to land theirs as well. If your party knows that it will be fighting something so tough that the pure BLM or WHM cannot land an enfeeble, then it's best to bring along a RDM ... and when it comes down to it, it's not that big of a problem because along with all the enfeebling that they do not have to do anymore, the RDM can also refresh them plus whatever else they can designate to the RDM.

In any case, this has been a great discussion thus far, I hope SE end up looking at this maybe put it into consideration of all of the things being said here.

[Zempten]

Hm.....I was thinking.... what would you think of something like this?

Mini-convert
Level gained: 60
Reuse time: 5 mins
Description: 300 HP converted to 300 MP

I know, it may seem worthless since convert is ALL HP converted to ALL MP, but for some reason I see a miniture one more beneficitial then a full one. What do you think?

[MMan530]

I have to agree with Discordian on this. I think that initially Elemental Seal should have no effect on enfeebling spells and that way Red Mages could have 'Cripping Seal.' Like Discordian pointed out, Crippling Seal would overlap Elemental Seal. As a matter of fact, Crippling Seal would just be a worse version of Elemental Seal in that it has no effect on nukes.

I for one am a RDM/WHM, and I love that combo

That's part of the problem: Crippling Seal would be a way to take away one of the advantages of subbing Blm. I love having Elemental Seal and I take it at the cost of not having Divine Seal. Is this just a job ability that is out of convenience for those who don't want to sub blm, or is it really something designed to set the Red Mage job apart from others?

I see your points on this Vaiyo and I think they're great.... but... for this to make sense, SE would have to change Elemental Seal. Its just too... redundant. Even though CS could be more potent than ES, its basically just a less flexible version. I honestly don't need potency when using ES + Enfeeble, its strong enough as it is.

[Apple Pie]

Whm/rdm - will retain the WHM's poor weapon caps
Poor weapon caps? Their mace skill is B+. It is better than our sword skill (B). Then after LV67, WHM melee completely goes ahead of ours.
RDMs can obviously equip more armor types(like harnesses) which provide sufficient DEF to survive an AOE or two, which WHM simply CANNOT. Their armors above LV40 are actually better than ours. Holy Brestplate has even higher AR than Warlock's Tabard. Well, just a slight difference in AR doesn't make any difference against IT mobs. So, "which provide sufficient DEF to survive an AOE or two, which WHM simply CANNOT." never happens. If it is critical enough to kill a white mage, it also eats us.
Warp(being a RDM/blm, i know the worth of this spell)Do you really use this in XP PT? Most of us only use it in Rabao when we go back to Jeuno.
Conserve MP (Any mage knows that this is a very very hard to replace job trait.) Think of which is more useful, En-Aspir (constant) or Conserve MP (random).
Aspir (Not at that level yet, but i know it's important. Because WHM doesn't have dark magic skill, it is useless without Elemental Seal and even with it, it only absorbs 15-30MP. Again, think of which is better, 1/2 Aspir or En-Aspir (WHM has Enhancing magic skill).

[Arli]

Wow, a simply amazing collection of ideas guys and gals.

I really like the idea of seeing Refresh duration increase as a job trait.

Crippling Seal is a brilliant idea, but it would require SE to completely remove the global effect that Elemental Seal has, which can be frustrating for WHM/BLM and BLM/WHM who have to land a silence or sleep on an add or ancient magic mob if the RDM in in mid-cast of another spell. I think it would work, but there would have to have some kind of balancing if they are to co-exist.

I'd like to see more RDM only spells at the higher end. enlight, endark, enaspir are great ideas, but I think they'd need to be high enough on the RDM level requirement as to not make it available to other casters as a SJ.

2 things i'd like to see that weren't previously listed:

1) A large, high level enfeeblement nuke. Think of a spell version of a Malboro's Bad Breath attack + a really ugly DOT. This would be something available at level 70+, cost 100+ MP to cast and have a massive casting time. The boon is that this spell would be the penultimate RDM spell, embodying the essence of the class: enfeeblement. Maybe call it "Cripple" or something. RDMs want to be known for what they specialize in, not just Dispel and Refresh (which are abilities that are semi-shared with BRD).

2) a RDM-only WS. Doesn't have to be anything huge like Dancing Edge, but a pretty decent, multi-hit WS that does respectable damage, drains MP and sticks a random enfeeblement on the mob (can be resisted). WHMs have Hexa Strike, THFs have Dancing Edge, DRKs have Guillotine etc. etc.

It's disheartening to see that I have to sub melee classes to get decent WS at 62 and beyond. I am a RDM, and I do melee from time to time. Where's my love Square Enix?

[MMan530]

Where's my love Square Enix?

That's going to be my new motto.

A 'Bad Breath' spell would definitely be cool (although would that replace all of our other spells?).

Our melee needs to be boosted, I'm finally convinced. WS like Spirit's Within are cool, but it hardly makes up for our lack of damage.

They should invent Ancient Magic enfeeble spells...

[Arli]

Well, I don't think our melee skills need much boosting, though I would love a more useful WS. I mean WHMs get a WS that returns MP to the entire PT, THFs get a really decent MP sucker dagger WS (yeah we have access to that, but it just doesn't have enough umpff). I'd like to see a flamboyant, flashy multi-hit WS that either drains HP/MP/TP? with each successful hit and adds a random status ailment.

So say we have a 4 hit WS called "Suffering". You'd have a drain slash, an aspir slash, a strong damage slash and an inflicting slash. Just like the other multi-hit WS, you have a chance to miss on or more of each slash. Though it would give RDMs reason to get in there and melee. A free drain/aspir and enfeeblement plus a touch of damage would be very attractive to a RDM, and it wouldn't be overpowering. I just think it would be a nice finesse move that would be effective for the RDM and his/her role.

About that high level RDM enfeblement nuke, I would like to see it overwrite all existing enfeebles, but includes the chance of having every status ailment inflicted (though you would only get one icon) at a much longer stick time. That way the spell would be a gamble, but it could pay off in spades. This would allow both Dia and Bio effects to stack and having the slip damage from all of our DOTs lasting a set amount of time (say 50 seconds instead of the 5-10 seconds some IT mobs have now) . Coupling this with the Crippling Seal idea would be ideal, but they'd have to balance it with something like a long casting and recast time and make it MP heavy.

Also, as such a powerful enfeeble spell, it would also generate a huge amount of hate, so it wouldn't be something you could cast in every fight, just the really desperate ones where something like this can turn a mountain of a mob into a mouse, at an expense of course.

[Apple Pie]

I'm afraid if S-E won't upgrade our dagger and sword skill anymore.

I rather want B for Bow skill, hehe. No en- spell on arrows but we can safely add some extra (and a good amount of) damage from the backline. No worry about AoE ^^;

[wraith203]

as far as I know, the current "elemental seal" only affects the chance of a spell succeeding.

If they made a crippling seal which did not affect the chance of success, but instead increases the enfeeble's power, then there would be no overlap.

[EDarkness]

Definitely some nice ideas here. One thing I would LOVE to see them change is the RDM 2-hr. It's almost totally useless. There are situations where it comes in handy, but overall it sucks.

Also, fix the WS problem. I don't understand why we get the bonus dagger WSs when our AF1 is a sword and we can use twice as many swords than daggers. Makes no sense to me. I'd like to see more high level WSs that we can call our own. It doesn't have to be anything ungodly devestating, but some decent would suffice. Though, Square has already stated that they aren't adding any new WS anytime soon.

Also increase our melee ability to at least a B+ or possibly an A- (as a side note, bump THF up to A+ in dagger). I know that's a lot, but by doing this we could see more RDMs with different subclasses equipped. Right now everyone talks about how the RDM melee ability get "gimped" and something should be done about that.

A few more RDM only spells past 50 would be awesome. I don't know why they don't get anything interesting after 50. It bother's me, because there's nothing really to look forward to. Sure we get the nuke 2 and 3 spells, but we don't really have the MP pool to cast those on a regular basis. Since RDMs are master Enfeeblers they should get some high level enfeebles. Most of our real good enfeebles we get before level 25. When I was coming up in levels I was looking forward to casting Raise, and then Refresh. After that, there has been no real rush to level. RDMs don't even get any new WSs.

All of those elemental seals and things that you guys are talking about wouldn't do much for me so they'd probably go unused. Well...I'd test them out to see if I could find a way to work them into my arsenal. :)

Enlight and endark spells would be nice, too. We get all the en- element spells but those. Go figure.


-EDarkness

[Synbios]

Originally posted by Tan'o
EnAspir might in fact still be overpowered.... Just think of RDMs who solo HNMs....

I don't think it'll ever be possible for one RDM to solo a HNM...O.o

King Arthos is soloable by high level RDMs.

Originally posted by kraazo
-snip bullshit-

WHM melee > RDM melee. I was fighting a NM with a RDM partner, even with my AF and its -10 enmity the RDM was unable to take hate off me, and beforehand we agreed on self healing, so I wasn't getting hate from healing him, guess where they came from.

Besides, WHM is just a Cure/Regen tank, except for these 2 spells and sometimes, some -na spells and bar-ra, we don't have much to do, whereas a RDM is a lot more busy with the Refreshes, Enfeebles, and waiting for MB, etc etc, I've played both, it's easier for me to cap my club with my WHM than to cap my sword with my RDM.

[bonovoxpsu]

Originally posted by EDarkness
Definitely some nice ideas here. One thing I would LOVE to see them change is the RDM 2-hr. It's almost totally useless. There are situations where it comes in handy, but overall it sucks.

Also, fix the WS problem. I don't understand why we get the bonus dagger WSs when our AF1 is a sword and we can use twice as many swords than daggers. Makes no sense to me. I'd like to see more high level WSs that we can call our own. It doesn't have to be anything ungodly devestating, but some decent would suffice. Though, Square has already stated that they aren't adding any new WS anytime soon.

Also increase our melee ability to at least a B+ or possibly an A- (as a side note, bump THF up to A+ in dagger). I know that's a lot, but by doing this we could see more RDMs with different subclasses equipped. Right now everyone talks about how the RDM melee ability get "gimped" and something should be done about that.

A few more RDM only spells past 50 would be awesome. I don't know why they don't get anything interesting after 50. It bother's me, because there's nothing really to look forward to. Sure we get the nuke 2 and 3 spells, but we don't really have the MP pool to cast those on a regular basis. Since RDMs are master Enfeeblers they should get some high level enfeebles. Most of our real good enfeebles we get before level 25. When I was coming up in levels I was looking forward to casting Raise, and then Refresh. After that, there has been no real rush to level. RDMs don't even get any new WSs.

All of those elemental seals and things that you guys are talking about wouldn't do much for me so they'd probably go unused. Well...I'd test them out to see if I could find a way to work them into my arsenal. :)

Enlight and endark spells would be nice, too. We get all the en- element spells but those. Go figure.


-EDarkness


the rdm two-hour is definitely NOT useless. its made to work with convert - and THAT is not useless. if you haven't used it post lvl 41, then you don't know its worth.

i think a B+ sword bump might be worthwhile. definitely not A- or A. no way. B+ though, i think square should consider. if they don't give it to us, i wouldn't complain.

and we need some high lvl rdm only spells, no doubt.

[Apple Pie]

the rdm two-hour is definitely NOT useless.
Absolutely. There's no way we can defeat Ma'at without it :P

[EDarkness]

I'll admit, I haven't used it post 41. I have used it pre-41. The thing is WHY give a 2-hr that almost useless until level 41? It makes not sense to me. At least a lot of the other classes get something that comes in handy in a pinch. Anyway, that's just how I look at it. I'm not saying it doesn't have uses, but those situations are limited at best.


-EDarkness

[Silverquick]

The only way the Red Mage Chaincast is not useful, is if you are geared towards melee rather than magic, lower levels you don't have the MP to spare, Higher levels you will unless you have a melee sub.

But in that case, the majority of the Red Mage abillities we currently have would be useless to you.

Convert removes your hit points for Magic points, if you need to do this in combat... you are not going to live long if you are on the front lines.

High level Red Mage Spells past 40th are almost exclusively caster oriented. You get Heals... Support Buffs... and Tier II and III Nukes.

[Apple Pie]

Well, it was already useful at LV11 when I was chased by two "even matched" Akbabas in La Theine Plateau. Think of which is safer, just run or Chainspell + Bind x 2 and run? Are there any better abilities?

It becomes more useful after LV25. We may only use it in case of emergency but smart red mages know how to save their PT and themselves.

For RDM/BLM, it is one of the most useful abilities when we solo AF coffer quests, Genkai quests, and missions. How many of you brave RDM/BLMs solo Genkai 3 Oztroja alone without killed by Yagudo High Priest or Avatar before the recent update (that made the quest easier)?

[Silverquick]

Hehe yeah you can get use out of it at low levels too,

I should clarify, chances are, at low levels by the time you get into a situation you have to use it in, you don't have the mana to spare for a chaincast anyway.

That said, higher levels normally you do, could be because you can see bad situations coming from a long ways away and know when it is time to kick it in. .

[pdac]

Chainspell useless? Its saved my pt many a time...even at level 11. Its usefullness is harder to realize when your mp is low, but when added to convert, it goes even farther. No mp? Party nearly dead? Chainspell + Convert + Cure III/IV and then nuke 'til the cows come home or cure the nearly dead remainder of the pt.

Ideas:

Upgrade our sword skill to B+ (I don't think we need A- or A) - the thought of white mages out damaging a class that has its best skill in a damage weapon is irking. More on that in a minute.

Crippling Seal, etc. - this is a brilliant idea, and highly useful. I think elemental seal should not be tailored toward use on any spell other than cures. It should help the primary casting ability of the class, and as I see it, black mages don't do everything except cures now, do they? (blm's, you know what I mean, I love that job too ^^) Maybe the same thing for a summoner as well (summons seal, doubles or so the power of your next summons attack/spell?)

Accelerator - reduce cast time of the next spell to zero, with a 10 minute reset. Quite useful, and would come in handy if we get something like ancient spells.

Ancient Enfeebles - quested spells that have 19sec cast times, massive mp costs and a *huge* hit on the targets stats. Spells could be:

Cripple - same effect of paralyze, and maybe reduces strength or weakens to a evasion reducing debuff

Restrict - same as gravity, and weakens to a slowing debuff

Lethargy - same as slow, weakens to a accuracy debuff

Misdirection - same as blind, weakens to a vitality debuff

Demoralize - reduces vitality, weakens to a strength debuff

Weaken - reduces strength, weakens to a paralyze debuff

It would basically be a circle of high-level debuffs, sort of like Ninjutsu elemental debuff. You could only cast one in a fight, but reduce the stats of target in the selected spell, and weaken it to the next one you plan on casting...add Crippling Seal to the next, and you have two heavy hitting debuffs, a potent combo. But the hate generated would be enormous...

Second Tier Debuffs - dispel II, paralyze II, gravity II, slow II, blind II, bind II, graviga, paralyga, slowga, blindga, bindga, etc. Both area and second tier spells would be a major boost to us, with the level to get them being about 30 past the first tier or so? They would be high enough then to keep them from being used in a sub. Add tier III at another 30 levels past that eventually.

Entirely new spells - some new debuffs or buffs? Some would be shared with whm and blm maybe, so the balance isn't too upset.

Intensity - increases agility and/or tp storage, castable on pt members

Determination - increases int, castable on pt members

Safe Harbor - increases mnd, castable on pt members

Enlight/Endark - you know these two ;)

Opportunity - adds a counterattack or double-attack effect, castable on pt members (time it with a weapon skill for max effect)

Graviton - DOT spell, reduces evasion and agility and a few hp/tick

Crash - knocks the target back and stuns it, quick cast but long reset

Crush - DOT, weakens strength and vitality, with a few hp/tick

Rally - increases str and vit, reduces mnd and int, castable on pt members

Think of the uses for these...high-level only (50+ or so?) and a decent mp cost, but they could make a huge difference in some battles. However their costs and reset would make it so you could only cast 2 or 3 *max* in a battle - keep the essential ones on, so no frivolous casting. Anyways, on to other ideas.

Base Refresh upon enhancing level, and add Refresh II and/or Refreshga - this is in my mind absolutely essential. Without it, we'll be rather useless past level 82. Either have these, or start making certain traits (convert) and spells (refresh, etc) exclusive to main jobs only.

Finally, the really random idea:

A new weapon class, "Rapier" - it would have low damage, low delay and stats boosts or enfeebling effects on it. Give some skill in it to the classes who could use rapier-type weapons before, but give Red Mage the highest skill in it. Of course the icing on the cake is new weapons skills ^^

[taken from a previous post by me]

"Gravity-Blade" - critical hit and lowers evasion - lvl 10
"Inferno Slice" - fire damage and lowers resistance to another element (lightning? water? etc) - lvl 30
"Typhoon" water damage and lowers resistance to fire - lvl 70
"Crippling Blow" - double hit and reduces targets hp/mp - lvl 100
"Skyblade" - deals large wind damage and lowers resistance to wind - lvl 150+?
"Crimson Crash" - critical area strike, reduces all targets stats significantly - lvl 200+ (hey, that would make an awesome spell!)

[end take]

Somewhat experimental, but its so different it might help us out a lot. It wouldn't make us damage dealers or dedicated melee-types. But it would give us a reason to get tp and occasionally use our sword if necessary. Simply put, our weapon abilities does not add anything really to our class that I can see - this would.

Thoughts anyone?

[Vaiyo]

WHM do not (again, do not) outdamage RDM. In the example the poster mentioned about him duoing with another RDM, he was curing himself while being beaten to a pulp because he's a WHM. That's not a fair analysis of damage output ... and if one really sat down to par the numbers, with much higher damage weapons, en-spells, nukes and higher damage WSs, RDM owns WHM in terms of damage (another example - PLDs do not outdamage DRKs, but they can hold hate regardless).

So basically, m00t point to raise our weapon skill cap.

Otherwise, I liked some of the ancient enfeeble spell suggestions ... except it kinda goes back to how our enfeebling skill is higher than other jobs. Since we have higher skill, our enfeebles are naturally stronger. Also because of this, I don't see tier II (or III) enfeeble spells are necessary (seeing how badly RDMs can already cripple a mob with what we have already, tier II & III will be ridiculously crippling to a mob ... and that should never happen).

And the enhancing spells ... those spells fall to the WHM or BRD. Would be nice if us RDMs had it, but it'd be infringing on the jobs of the WHM or BRD.

I would love to see Refreshga at level 75. ^^; Dun think it'll ever happen though.

The rapier idea is pretty creative, I think. Think on this more I will ... ^^;

[pdac]

Vaiyo, good point there. I haven't seen rdm past 50 compared with whm, so I am unsure of their performance vs. eachother, but if such a disparity exists, I'd like to see it eliminated. Otherwise, the ideas I have aren't to be all added, but picking from them could create a better balance as the game expands.

Thanks for looking at my Rapier idea though, might be fun to devise our own weapon skills ^^ (also, what do you think of some of the additional debuffs I came up with? The enhancing ones we would get later than whm, but the debuffs would be ours earlier)

Thanks ^^-b

[MMan530]

To support Vaiyo, yes... Red mages should out damage white mages.

Thanks for coming up with those, Pdac, I like the idea of ancient magic enfeebles now more than I did when I first mentioned it, lol.

It looks like the point was proven about rdms 2 hour. Just wait until you're level 50+ and spend 900 mp in 30 seconds. Also, if you're in real need of an emergency solution, 58rdm/blm can chainspell+escape.

[Synbios]

Originally posted by Vaiyo
WHM do not (again, do not) outdamage RDM. In the example the poster mentioned about him duoing with another RDM, he was curing himself while being beaten to a pulp because he's a WHM. That's not a fair analysis of damage output ... and if one really sat down to par the numbers, with much higher damage weapons, en-spells, nukes and higher damage WSs, RDM owns WHM in terms of damage (another example - PLDs do not outdamage DRKs, but they can hold hate regardless).

So basically, m00t point to raise our weapon skill cap.

Otherwise, I liked some of the ancient enfeeble spell suggestions ... except it kinda goes back to how our enfeebling skill is higher than other jobs. Since we have higher skill, our enfeebles are naturally stronger. Also because of this, I don't see tier II (or III) enfeeble spells are necessary (seeing how badly RDMs can already cripple a mob with what we have already, tier II & III will be ridiculously crippling to a mob ... and that should never happen).

And the enhancing spells ... those spells fall to the WHM or BRD. Would be nice if us RDMs had it, but it'd be infringing on the jobs of the WHM or BRD.

I would love to see Refreshga at level 75. ^^; Dun think it'll ever happen though.

The rapier idea is pretty creative, I think. Think on this more I will ... ^^; Why is there a need to heal myself when I'm not getting hate? :rolleyes: Higher damage WS? Hexa completely owns any RDM WS in damage. And like you said, numbers, numbers and theories don't always work in practical situations. I didn't save screenshot of the log, but this was what happened.

RDM Paralyze/Slow/DiaII the NM while I was healing MP, after he took about 3~4 swings, I joined in the battle, hate was on him w/o a problem until I got 100% TP, then things went out of control, hate stuck onto me like glue and I had to self cure, resulting in more hate and eventually death, cause we got slept and I ate a Flood.

[Karinya]

Just the other day I used Chainspell on the NIN quest, I was the only one in the party who could Sleep (RDM WHM WHM WAR WAR, I was 35 the others all 30). Chainspell, sleep x2, dump a bunch of enfeebles on the third leech. (In retrospect I should have changed sub to BLM so I could Seal/Sleep after the Chainspell wore off... but it turned out not to matter, I got it to stick anyway.)

We won, but one of the WHMs had to use benediction (all three of us ran out of MP) and died. 20/20 hindsight again - we should have brought juice. :sweat: Fortunately the other WHM raised him in time to get the coral.

Without Chainspell that would have been impossible. Two leeches attacking at once, me trying to get enfeebles on both of them (with the long casting time on Paralyze, etc.) and dispel their regens... I see why some people think you need a 40+ party, they don't use sleep tactics.

Edit: Before you complain about our 2hr, would you like to trade with BRD, NIN (I've seen them 2hr for 1 damage!) or DRK (miss miss miss, effect wears off)? It's even worse for DRG - their whole job is balanced around having their 2hr "on" all the time, so they cant' use it to "go to 11" like most jobs. And then if they get their wyvern killed, they're gimped for the rest of the 2 hours before they get to come back up to equal to other jobs that aren't using their 2hrs. THF 2hr is useless in most PT situations; BLM and WHM 2hrs will get them killed (ours can too, but at least we can enfeeble while we're getting hate). I think RDM have one of the better 2hrs actually. They can't all be Hundred Fists or Invincible.


Although I'd like to see some high level RDM only spells, some of the ideas on this thread are going way overboard. Maybe rather than additional spells, existing spells could be modified so that they were more effective with higher magic skills (like Apple Pie's idea for Refresh). Wouldn't you like a Blind that reduces accuracy more when you have higher enfeebling magic, or a Paralyze that makes monsters miss more attacks?

For a while I thought my Regen was stronger than WHMs I partied with because I had higher enhancing magic (i.e. restored more HP per tick) - turned out I was just not taking into account Poison, Rasp and/or Auto-Regen, but wouldn't it be nice if Regen actually *did* strengthen with increasing Enhancing Magic? And while I'm on the subject, why are the higher levels of the only Enhancing Magic "heal" WHM only when RDM are better at Enhancing Magic than WHM are?

When WHM and RDM are in a party together, RDM doing Regen gives the WHM more time and MP to do what he does best - Cures. When RDM are healing without a WHM, we need Regen even more for its MP efficiency. Take that away at higher levels and RDM won't be able to fill the healer role - meaning even more people looking for parties. :eek:

Besides, if we got a Paralyze II, it would cost more MP (and gil, RDM are already very expensive to play using almost all the WHM *and* BLM spells and sometimes needing a good weapon and armor too). If Paralyze becomes stronger with increasing Enfeebling Magic skill, it doesn't cost us any more. :thumbsup: So I'd like to see more spells increase in effectiveness with skill, stats and/or level, instead of adding new spells.

[Uroboros]

Monk 2hr is easily the best, yes? A whole other tier. Past that, most are kind of eh. But Chainspell is one of the better ones, it just has a learning curve since it's not usually a panic 2hr, it's a 2hr in the anticipation of panic, which can be a hard thing to guage. Think about things with long cooldown timers (Regen, Refresh, Sleep, Gravity spring to mind most quickly) that are very important. Now think about running out of mana, Chainspell into Convert into self cure into Sleeping anything you need to and Regenning/Refreshing everyone in the party in a matter of seconds, still having 15-20 seconds of Chainspell left to pump out enfeebles and Cures and nukes, all with no startup/cooldown time.

Chainspell's really good.

[EDarkness]

Heh, heh. I didn't say it didn't have uses, but those uses aren't always obvious. If I'm getting thrashed, and I can't escape, then I use Perfect Dodge, that's an obvious one. With Chainspell, at low levels by the time you even think of using a 2-hr you're running for your life and out of MP. At higher levels it's a bit easier to tell when you might need it. I just haven't needed it until today.

Also, for those of us who melee, Convert still comes in handy. I use it all the time. Even in a fight. The only time I'm wary is if I something has an AoE. In that situation, I'll back off the fight and use it. Sometimes I'll even let everyone know I'm doing it. Also, since I sub NIN, I get Utsusemi and that helps also. That at least gives me a couple hits to work with in case I get aggro.

Oh, and so far, I have yet to see a WHM out damage me as far as melee damage.


-EDarkness

[Apple Pie]

I'm sorry to say Synbios is correct.

Once white mages learn Hexa Strike at LV67, we have no way to catch up with them.

we don't have any weapon skill that does 800+ damage with just 100% TP and get us 50% TP back (when all six hits land)? Even in XP PT, Hexa still does good up to VTs and it can either be a setupper or be a closer of LV3 Light skillchain.

[Vaiyo]

Why is there a need to heal myself when I'm not getting hate? Higher damage WS? Hexa completely owns any RDM WS in damage. And like you said, numbers, numbers and theories don't always work in practical situations. I didn't save screenshot of the log, but this was what happened.

RDM Paralyze/Slow/DiaII the NM while I was healing MP, after he took about 3~4 swings, I joined in the battle, hate was on him w/o a problem until I got 100% TP, then things went out of control, hate stuck onto me like glue and I had to self cure, resulting in more hate and eventually death, cause we got slept and I ate a Flood.

I'll admit, Hexastrike is a better WS in terms of damage than anything RDMs'll ever get on their own merit (ie. for those of us that do not sub WAR, DRK or PLD, THF, etc). However, one single burst of damage (after just three debuffs and 4 swings?) got you aggro ... then you kept healing yourself and thus maintained aggro. Hmmm, sounds like a paladin. And a paladin can hold aggro against a DRK ... why? You know the answer as well as I do.

In any case, back to the thread at hand ...

Here's a thought tha popped up into my head just now. RDMs probably should not have their skill cap raised because we have en-spells. If one were to use Enhancing Sword & Fencer's Ring (and at the level to use Enhancing Sword), the additional damage would add up to 26 or more per hit. So basically, does anyone know how much difference raising the skill cap would make? I am guessing that with that much additional damage potential added by our en-spells, does it really make sense to increase our skill cap?

[Synbios]

Originally posted by Vaiyo


I'll admit, Hexastrike is a better WS in terms of damage than anything RDMs'll ever get on their own merit (ie. for those of us that do not sub WAR, DRK or PLD, THF, etc). However, one single burst of damage (after just three debuffs and 4 swings?) got you aggro ... then you kept healing yourself and thus maintained aggro. Hmmm, sounds like a paladin. And a paladin can hold aggro against a DRK ... why? You know the answer as well as I do.

In any case, back to the thread at hand ...

Here's a thought tha popped up into my head just now. RDMs probably should not have their skill cap raised because we have en-spells. If one were to use Enhancing Sword & Fencer's Ring (and at the level to use Enhancing Sword), the additional damage would add up to 26 or more per hit. So basically, does anyone know how much difference raising the skill cap would make? I am guessing that with that much additional damage potential added by our en-spells, does it really make sense to increase our skill cap?

Note, the one doing debuffs weren't me, and the RDM had more hate than me since he was debuffing and stuff, but when I used my WS, the monster turned to me, before that I did not cast anything, if this doesn't show WHM are better damagers than RDMs, I don't know what does. I wasn't supposed to have aggro. But one WS made me took away all the hate the RDM has built up. I'm not talking about holding hate, I'm talking about getting hate from too much damage ALONE even with the -10 Enmity WHMs have over RDMs.

Relating the above to PLD and DRK, I'm a DRK/WHM who got too much hate after Guillo and The PLD/WHM wasn't able to take hate off me and since we agreed on self-curing in first place, I get to build up more and more hate.

Fencer's ring? You do know you need to have yellow HP and <100% TP for it to have its effect? And Enhancing Sword's price is in millions, how many RDMs are able to afford it? Heck, A WHM/NIN with a Darksteel in main hand and a Kraken in offhand can Hexa every 10 seconds, or abandon one Hexa and do a Black Halo for a self Light renkei, sweet? I'd love to see a RDM do a self renkei. In terms of melee damage, RDM is definitely weaker. They're better in survival, like PLD and DRK, one can solo Decents without a problem, the other can do crazy damage but has crap for defences.

[Altruist]

WHM hexastrike pretty makes all rdm melee look like crap. Savage Blade is about the best we get, and from what I heard it isn't as good as hexastrike. However if you ever solo anything for gil or items, phalnax + stoneskin + blink + treasure hunter and gil finder make life very nice :)

[MMan530]

Was this thread being used for something? I lost track...

[Vaiyo]

Well, it used to be a thread about possible ways to improve RDMs ...



To Synbios:

Would you like a cookie? Or a pat on the back 'good job'? Great you have Hexastrike!!!

All sarcasm aside, I have already said Hexastrike is a great WS after being corrected (and I realize that since I have been corrected on the Hexastrike point, some of my arguments are m00t).

Besides that, I realize most RDMs at this point cannot afford the Enhancing Sword; and yes I definitely know that Fencer's Ring's effect is latent. My question to you is do you 1) have an idea on how to improve RDMs without taking away from other jobs or 2) have a constructive opinion on what others have mentioned?

Or do you just 3) want to brag about Hexastrike (and how you died from it being so good)? Or perhaps 4) you'd like to tell us why Square Enix should increase RDM weapon skill cap based on how good you think Hexastrike is (and how you died from it)?

[Synbios]

Originally posted by Vaiyo
Well, it used to be a thread about possible ways to improve RDMs ...



To Synbios:

Would you like a cookie? Or a pat on the back 'good job'? Great you have Hexastrike!!!

All sarcasm aside, I have already said Hexastrike is a great WS after being corrected (and I realize that since I have been corrected on the Hexastrike point, some of my arguments are m00t).

Besides that, I realize most RDMs at this point cannot afford the Enhancing Sword; and yes I definitely know that Fencer's Ring's effect is latent. My question to you is do you 1) have an idea on how to improve RDMs without taking away from other jobs or 2) have a constructive opinion on what others have mentioned?

Or do you just 3) want to brag about Hexastrike (and how you died from it being so good)? Or perhaps 4) you'd like to tell us why Square Enix should increase RDM weapon skill cap based on how good you think Hexastrike is (and how you died from it)? My first post on Hexa in this thread was in response to a crappy poster who I snipped off his quote, which was practically saying how crap WHM melee is compared to RDMs. And then somehow, you quoted it saying that I was getting hate from healing, which was totally not my point in my first post. Even then, I tried to explain the situation again, and you misunderstood it again, with the reference of the RDM being DRK and WHM being PLD, which I tried to correct you again, to get this respose from you.

Everyone knows how good Hexa is, I don't have to boast about it. Why don't you try reading from that snipped post somewhere in page 3, your 1st reply to my post about the getting hate from healing thing, and the stupid PLD/DRK comparions.

[EDarkness]

No offense, folks, but why are we debating WHM stuff in the RDM forum? Shouldn't this argument be in a different thread or in the WHM forum?

Hexastrike is good. Okay. We got that.

What would be really nice is if they gave RDMs their own WS. WHMs don't really fight yet they get one. We fight and don't really get much out of it in the way of love. So Square would get all kinds of points from me if they gave RDMs something cool to look forward to at high levels...besides the actual levels themselves. It could be called something like Viper Blast, and it does massive damage AND acts like Bad Breath and puts crazy debuffs on the monster. Wouldn't that rock? Or how about Vorpal Strikes that hits the monster three times and inflicts Gravity?

Okay, okay. So I'm dreaming, but it would be cool. :)



-EDarkness

[Synbios]

Well, back to topic, most of the stuff listed here would just promote 6 RDM parties, with exception to buffing Refresh, and EnLight/Dark. As for the seal which you can land Enfeebles better or what, why bother? Elemental Seal is useful enough for that, and BLMs get it so they can prolly go crazy and burst AM and not get resisted, Divine Seal is useful when the WHM wanna do a godly Curaga or is just conserving MP and saving one cure. Enfeeble Seal? Eh? If you aren't gimped or fighting mobs that are too hard, by the time your 1st cast wears off, the monster is prolly dead, if it wears off.

RDM already gets the most invites to PT, BCNMs, HNMs, etc, there's a reason, cause they are already a good and useful class on their own. Compared to BLMs and WHMs, there's always people who doesn't appreciate -ga bursts and there will always be WHMs in the hunting grounds for Raise II/IIIs, people don't plan on dying anyway.

Those Ancient Enfeebles stuff, yea, so what if it has uber recast timer, 6 RDMs can cast each on their own, and then proceed to finishing off the mob in whatever method they wish. It's like 6 BLMs casting each of the AM with Seal, instant pwnage? Yes.

B- and B in Sword doesn't have much big difference when farming, and in levelling up party, if you actually have the luxury of getting 100% TP, you're either in a group which doesn't have much MP users, ie, Refreshing yourself only and maybe 2 more people, or you're not doing your job well enough. In my set PT, I only have to Refresh the PLD and the other RDM will Refresh the WHM, and after spliting the Enfeebles, MP usage isn't that high, but when I'm outside my set, Refreshing myself, 2 other mages, and PLD, and throwing all the Enfeebles myself, + the MB, I wish Convert would get a shorter timer.

Conclusion? RDMs are fine on their own, Refresh needs to be fixed, 2 more elemental Ens and Bars are needed, they don't really need any more enhancements of buffs that add to their mage or melee ability. If SquareEnix were to add anything to RDMs, I'd rather they fix DRG/SAM/SMN first.

[Oro]

Well said Synbios. (only skimmed this thread though, sorry)

Those with JP PC client have you ever viewed the data? I remember viewing it many many months ago.

Off the top of my head I remember a few unrealeased spells, refresh2 comes to mind (and ballad3 lv75). But I dont know if these spells will get released, or if the lv will get adjusted, because this lv cap will likely to be long term.

Take the elemental 3 and 4 spells for example, and even cure5. There was a time that the scrolls for cure5 stated lv71+ RDM. There was a time spells like stone3 stated lv70+ DRK and some scrolls even had lv requirments of up to 90+. This was actually viewable ingame. Hell the data had elemental 5 spells like stone5 starting on around lv105. Than it seemed S.E started adjusted the levels to fit the patch, fire4 bliz4 thunder4 was never a lv73,74,75 spell respectively. They used to have a distance to them. Same with RDM getting elemental 3 spells every other lv after lv69.

btw I know this is a wishlish thread, just wanted to point out there was some spells the data suggests are realistic, but I dont remember many RDM ones :spin:

I do remember drain2 and aspir2, phalanx2, dispel2 (removes all statues?)

I did quite like someones idea on en-aspir, but drain and aspir is a dark related spell, specific to drk and blm

Personally I think square have done enough to justify RDMs usefulness, over 12months ago they were hated so much, now it seems square are slowly nerfing them for being uber.

I don't think it'll ever be possible for one RDM to solo a HNM...O.o

RDM can solo 1 or 2 HNMs, with the right equipment, and some of my LS recently witnessed a NIN75/THF37 do the same

[MMan530]

Synbios, next time you think that Red mages get the most invites, do a /sea all brd and see how many are around your level. There aren't enough to fill all the spots, but there are plenty of red mages. That's why we get the invites. Its hard for us to compete with them after 55+. If you want to argue with that, check out this thread: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.phps=&threadid=36273 --- Moggymog said it best when he said that, at higher levels, given a blm, whm, and one extra slot- it'd be filled by a brd over a rdm.

The only reason we get so many invites is because we make great fillers for places that don't have the ideal job available, particularly so at higher levels. This is why we're asking for an ability or spell that is unique to red mage.

I have to admit that I find it contradictory how you broke into this thread by bragging about how white mages can out-melee red mages, but you don't think that we need any better spells, upped melee, or new skills. Likewise, this is a wishlist. That means that this is a chance for us to present ideas and brainstorm on things that we, as a job, feel we'd benefit from. As a wishlist, it is inherently going to present ideas that are a little over the top. We appreciate that you don't think that we need anything. However, don't feel disrespected when we think it'd be nice to have something unique to our class.

By the way, Phalanx II is actually in the game. Whether or not we'd get it ever, who knows?

[MMan530]

Hopefully we're back to the subject now.

I lost track with this whole 'hexa-strike charade,' but have we discussed a party-wide en-spells at levels 60-65 or so? This could obviously be useful in many situations. Its reasonably unique, and a powerful party buffer. This would be one of the few reasons to have a red mage to buff the melee over having a bard to buff the melee.... although it still isn't a fair trade.

I know we've discussed en-spelling the party, but I agree that this would be too much consistant workload. If you have 3 mages (yourself, whm, blm) + pld, you're refreshing at least 4 people. Add two melee to en-spell + the pld again + yourself, and you're enspelling 4 people. Sounds like a pretty tedious task to me.

Too bad getting an Acc+ buffer is too into 'bard territory.'

[Synbios]

Originally posted by MMan530
Synbios, next time you think that Red mages get the most invites, do a /sea all brd and see how many are around your level. There aren't enough to fill all the spots, but there are plenty of red mages. That's why we get the invites. Its hard for us to compete with them after 55+. If you want to argue with that, check out this thread: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.phps=&threadid=36273 --- Moggymog said it best when he said that, at higher levels, given a blm, whm, and one extra slot- it'd be filled by a brd over a rdm.

The only reason we get so many invites is because we make great fillers for places that don't have the ideal job available, particularly so at higher levels. This is why we're asking for an ability or spell that is unique to red mage.

I have to admit that I find it contradictory how you broke into this thread by bragging about how white mages can out-melee red mages, but you don't think that we need any better spells, upped melee, or new skills. Likewise, this is a wishlist. That means that this is a chance for us to present ideas and brainstorm on things that we, as a job, feel we'd benefit from. As a wishlist, it is inherently going to present ideas that are a little over the top. We appreciate that you don't think that we need anything. However, don't feel disrespected when we think it'd be nice to have something unique to our class.

By the way, Phalanx II is actually in the game. Whether or not we'd get it ever, who knows? About the bragging, please read my previous *2 post. And the invite sequence is always BRD>RDM>any mages. RDMs will always get an invite no matter what, no one would be stupid enough to get a BRD BLM WHM when they can get a BRD RDM BLM. RDMs complain about BRDs, SMN BLM WHM complain about BRDs and RDMs. BRD or not, RDMs won't get passed up because of a BRD, but WHMs and BLMS will. Square is nerfing RDM every patch and you guys still want more stuff, geez, read the patch updates will ya? Previous patch, Gravity gets more resisted more on HNMs, let's wonder why. And the one before, RDMs = Goodbye Cure V, let's wonder why again.

I am playing a RDM now, not a WHM, cause WHM sucks and the only advantage they have over RDMs is Hexa. Invites, soloability, and everything else, RDMs win hands down, even BRDs can't do half the things RDM can, ever seen a BRD in full AF getting pwned by Mimas? That's how weak they are. And if I were to choose between a BRD or RDM for my WHM party, it would be RDM, cause debuffs are mose useful than buffs.

Edit: And the group En buffs? Heh, only MNKs THFs and maybe PLDs would benefit from them, if you don't know why, feel free to observe your melees when you're partying. Casting En spell on self is already a waste in party, let alone using more MP to cast on party.

[Uroboros]

By Synbios:
That's how weak they are. And if I were to choose between a BRD or RDM for my WHM party, it would be RDM, cause debuffs are mose useful than buffs.

Interesting - I'm not personally at the 60+ endgame yet, but everyone I know who is says that bard buffs make more of a difference than RDM enfeebles. Do they say this perhaps because bard buffs are more tangible? Or because if there isn't an RDM, a WHM will be there to Slow/Paralyze? Or are they just wrong?

I will say that the best backline I've been in was RDM/BLM (me, BRD/WHM, SMN/WHM. Fenrir is like cheating, so is Refresh + Ballads. 6k exp in an hour, not making that up. I don't think RDMs have anything really to worry/complain about - on topic for the wishlist, I'd want RDM specific gear before unreasonably (IMO) asking for more icing on the cake.

Also, finally, I don't think RDM can really replace a WHM - I prefer to party with a WHM than without, totally. The advanced Regens alone justify the class, and outstrip much of what I can do. Not to mention Protectra/Shellra/-barga lines, or Curaga line, or Erase.

[bonovoxpsu]

synbios -

you do realize that from levels 1-32 (maybe even up to 39), we are the 3rd place mages? hell, at lvl 25, we drop to 4th place behind the bards!

so you whining about how much we're wanted is kind of crap in my opinion. after dealing with being the red-headed step child for some 40 lvls, i will gladly say that yes, we are the most popular mage from 41-50. not sure how it goes from here (obviously).

so yes. we are popular at high lvls. deal with it, all rdm's had to deal with being less then popular for most of the game.

:p

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by bonovoxpsu
are popular at high lvls. deal with it, all rdm's had to deal with being less then popular for most of the game.
Level 1-40 doesn't quite count as "most of the game." :angel:

[bonovoxpsu]

hehe... ok :)

also, Synbios, i hope i don't sound to offensive in that post... just read it and noticed it was rather aggressive :)

[MMan530]

[Editted: Original Post Removed]

I'm forcing myself to be constructive rather than be distracted :)

Its been said that black mages and white mages at 70+ can pretty much land all of the debuffs they need, despite the difference in skill. I think that overall, red mage is a great class as it is.... but I seek some sort of unique advantage that is a great benefit from a party perspective. Convert is perfect, but seems to be used less and less every level. Perhaps SE will develop debuffs that are Red Mage only and 40+, thus eliminating anyone (even /rdm) from being able to use them unless they are Rdm main.

[Discordian]

Originally posted by Vaiyo

And the enhancing spells ... those spells fall to the WHM or BRD. Would be nice if us RDMs had it, but it'd be infringing on the jobs of the WHM or BRD.

[/B]

RDM has a higher Enhancing Skill than WHM and its a master of enhancing ourselves. It would be nice to see a way to enhancing people other than Refresh and Haste but I'm afraid we would be too stretched at that point. rdm/whm can have some very powerful enhancing spells.

I think our melee damage against EM and below is just fine. An up to date weapon and attack power will slice right on through them, if you want Vorpal Blade at RDM62/(war/pld/drk) you can do it for farming but RDM/THF will probably win overall with gilfinder, better drops, flee, evasion boost, trick attack, steal.

[Synbios]

Originally posted by Uroboros
By Synbios:


Interesting - I'm not personally at the 60+ endgame yet, but everyone I know who is says that bard buffs make more of a difference than RDM enfeebles. Do they say this perhaps because bard buffs are more tangible? Or because if there isn't an RDM, a WHM will be there to Slow/Paralyze? Or are they just wrong?

I will say that the best backline I've been in was RDM/BLM (me, BRD/WHM, SMN/WHM. Fenrir is like cheating, so is Refresh + Ballads. 6k exp in an hour, not making that up. I don't think RDMs have anything really to worry/complain about - on topic for the wishlist, I'd want RDM specific gear before unreasonably (IMO) asking for more icing on the cake.

Also, finally, I don't think RDM can really replace a WHM - I prefer to party with a WHM than without, totally. The advanced Regens alone justify the class, and outstrip much of what I can do. Not to mention Protectra/Shellra/-barga lines, or Curaga line, or Erase. Bards only have a C in their instrument skills, unless they boost CHR like crazy or get the Ministrel Coat, which doesn't really help much, still, te last time I parties with a BRD, he didn't even bother singing Thrensoy or however you spell it, cause it gets resisted more than half the time, maybe it was because he's gimped, didn't really check his equipment, so he ended up being a Madingral and Minute + Dual Ballad and spend the rest of his time meleeing away. Useful? Besides, a RDM will be able to keep Refresh on a PLD easier than a BRD keeping Ballad on a PLD, unless your camp has the ideal BRD formation.

THF DRK/THF MNK/THF
V
Melee>Mob><PLD BRD Mage Mage

Most of the time, you'll be cramped for space. And when the stupid THF moves when playing Ballad. :mad: WHM casting Slow and Paralyze is more like wasting MP, takes maybe 2-3 cast to land and last for 4-5 seconds. Pumped out my MND gear when levelling on bones in Gustav, I can't even keep the Doom Mage silenced more than 10 seconds, BRD can't do anything, neither can the BLM.

At level 62, anything/WHM can Seal + Curaga II = Curaga III. Erase? Heh, after 64, I've seen BRD/WHM, SMN/WHM, RDM/WHM and even BLM/WHM with Erase. Like everyone and their grandmother has Erase except me. Refresh + Ballad is always good, but WHMs will fall asleep, BLMs get to MB, SMNs get to run forward and back, WHMs just sit there and fall asleep. Another reason why I prefer RDMs over BRDs. :thumbsup: Every melee loves BRD, but mages and PLDs prefer RDMs, NINs are crazy over SMNs.

[Synbios]

Originally posted by bonovoxpsu
synbios -

you do realize that from levels 1-32 (maybe even up to 39), we are the 3rd place mages? hell, at lvl 25, we drop to 4th place behind the bards!

so you whining about how much we're wanted is kind of crap in my opinion. after dealing with being the red-headed step child for some 40 lvls, i will gladly say that yes, we are the most popular mage from 41-50. not sure how it goes from here (obviously).

so yes. we are popular at high lvls. deal with it, all rdm's had to deal with being less then popular for most of the game.

:p Most of the game? You don't even spend half the time of 40-60 during 1-40. Even at level 50, you aren't even at half of the game for a job.

[Tirrock]

I think the idea of each class having a weapon skill would be interesting, a nice idea to whoever brought it up. (WHM do not get Hexa-Strike to themselves. PLD have a higher club skill than WHM.) How this weapon skill would work isn't something I'll really get into. (Partially because I can't think of anything original that wasn't mentioned already.)

EDIT: Well, I'll be damned. A PLD pointed out to me that Hexa Strike is SP, meaning only WHM main can have it. I thought it was EX, so WAR, WHM, PLD, DRK, or SAM, sub or main, could use it.

I think that BRD's Mages Ballard I/II gives them quite an advantage that RDM don't have post 55. It is basicly an area Refresh that they can do fairly often without much more penalties of casting it multiple times than the time it takes to cast. If a RDM messes up on Refresh (casting it on the same person twice in a row), they've just messed up their refresh order and they're down 40 MP. While personally I prefer RDM over BRD, I will say that a good BRD can do better with mages/paladins than any RDM can.

My point being? Refresh might need a change. One person suggested a duration boost. That seemed fair enough. It's not quite earth-shattering different, but it still is nice.

As for RDM being unique, I think maybe a few new enfeebles could be in order (post 40 or 50, so they couldn't be subbed). Perhaps a watered down stone. Monsters get to turn us to stone, about time we return the favor.

The cripple seal seemed....too major to be possible. Only way to keep it from overlapping Elemental Seal (in my opinion) would be to change Elemental Seal to elemental magic only. This, once again, seems much to major of a change to be done.

Quick Seal (or something to that effect) would be interesting. A possible variation could be giving it a 30 second timer for casting spells 25% to 50% faster or making their recast time 25% to 50% shortened. (Play around with the numbers however you like, just an idea.)

Another thing I'd like to see, mostly because it drives me nuts, is some sort of divine magic for RDM. They have a divine skill...but no use for it unless subbing WHM. (And we all know how great that subbed WHM banish is.) That's just strange.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt. You can see how far I've played RDM personally, as well as what job I am.

[MMan530]

Another thing I'd like to see, mostly because it drives me nuts, is some sort of divine magic for RDM. They have a divine skill...but no use for it unless subbing WHM. (And we all know how great that subbed WHM banish is.) That's just strange.

This is true. We have dark skill too, but at least we can learn Bio. I'd recommend Dia to be a divine skill if it wasn't the staple red mage spell (it is, afterall, the first one we get). Maybe they should work on divine altogether: Drain + Aspir > Holy.

I've always thought that it was funny how black mages get 6 enfeebling spells (even though they are 'elemental' classification) that red mages can't get. I understand Shock- MND down is great for a black mage's nukes... but things like Vit down, etc, should be something that red mages could w/o /blm. These are a combination of elemental magic and enfeebling, why blm only?

There are a few status effects that we can't inflict on mobs that should maybe be turned into higher level spells. Like Tirrock mentioned, perhaps a watered-down petrify. This would even be an alternative to sleep. There are some, like petrify, that no one can utilize, and others, like the elemental enfeebles or stun, that black mages and other classes receive but we do not.

It would be great to look forward to something other than the same old 'Paralyze..... Slow..... Gravity.... etc etc.'

Job abilities: Quick Seal (Chainspell style for 1 spell) and Scan (View buffs/debuffs on mobs) are great abilities that could add a unique spin on red mages that no other job could sub--- hopefully they'd be 40+. I could understand Quick Seal being around level 10, just to match up with other seals. Scan, imo, should be added- as spell or ability- even though it is traditionally a white mage spell.

[Walkir]

Interesting point on the Petrify.

I would like to see our 2 hour replaced with a Point-Blank AE affect (Like protectra) that petrifies all enemies around the RDM for 30 Seconds.

That at least would give us a usefull 2 hour.

[Vaiyo]

Our 2hr is useful.

Most people think of 2hr abilities something that should save you instantly, without the user giving it any thought, so that it can give you a breather (ie. Benediction, Invincibility); RDM 2hr ability is something that is usually something that the RDM had planned ahead of time. Plus, if you are really quick to think, there are some really amazing things you can pull off on-the-fly too.

There are tons of examples about how Chainspell can be used effectively if you really want to know how to use it properly.

But debating aside, that would be kinda cool if RDMs' 2hr was a 30-second, AE petrify ... that'd be incredibly sweet, but ultimately overpowered. HNM come up, PLD goes invincible for 30 seconds, that wears off, boom RDM 2hr ... that wears off, boom another RDM 2hr ... every high level encounter would then become retardedly easy, etc.

[wuffles]

Ok some people seem to want group refreshes or group en spells. I thought the idea was to try making the RDM a more distinct class not make it more like a bard.

Now to me the RDM is already a superb class and things like Refresh II should not be added in the next patch if the level cap is just raised to 80. Refresh II would be more like a lvl 82 spell if its added, but given then the bards should get Ballad III this means if each can regen 5 mp per tick, then the total is 10 per tick compared to the current 6 per tick. This could cause some balance issues after all these spells already got nerfed because of balance.

So what to add to the RDM to make the class more distinct? Well things the RDM seems to have are the abilities to cast spells faster and to buff themselves. So why not enhance this with some spells along these lines.

How about a spell that made reduced the recast timer on spells that have been cast so that you can say do
Refresh
Hearts Desire (new spell)
Refresh
Hearts Desire would cause any spell recast timer to be reduced by either a % or fixed amount. This means if the situation is not desperate you could trade off an extra mana cost to get that spell cast sooner rather than using your 2hr.

Also since whm get divine seal and blm the elemental seal, why not give the rdm an ability fast seal. Removes or 1/2 the cast time for the next spell. Given this is probably not as powerful as the other abilities the reuse time could be 5 mins to compensate.

From when I played eq i remember the necros could trade hp for mp, and since the rdm has convert why not have a self only buff that drains 1 hp per tick, and gives 5 mp per tick in return. This would not stack with refresh of course. However since this is not refresh it lets you begin refreshing others more easily since you use LifeTap on yourself and refresh on others.

Another thing that could be extended is as well as getting the en-elemental spells how about en-status spells such as en-delay
This means each time you hit a monster a small delay is added to its next action.

Some of these abilities may not necessarily make the RDM more powerful but in some cases just easier to play. However they would also make it more distinct and I think making the jobs unique should be important or whats the point in having different jobs.

[Discordian]

I want cookies.

[Ungerpurr]

I agree that red mages need to be able to provide some sort of benefit to melees in a way that does not invalidate bards, preferably in the form of a 30 minute buff ala protect/shell. A line of buffs from 30-45 that increase a stat by 10 points, and the upgrade to that line from 60-75 that increase a stat by 20 points would be ideal.

You could only have one of the stat buffs on a particular player at any time, but they would overwrite each other. Mana cost should be prohibitive enough to dissuade changing the buffs around every other fight, something along the lines of 50-75 mana or thereabouts for the first line, and 100-150 mana for the upgrades (and keep in mind I'm talking about a 30 minute buff here).

So you cast INT on yourself, MND on the WHM, VIT on the PLD, STR on the MNK, DEX on the THF, and CHR on the bard, for example. Yeah, it'd be rather a PITA to refresh the buffs (1 in 3 converts used expressly for this purpose), but they would add enough of a bonus that it would at least be worth considering whether a leader would rather add a bard or a rdm to their group.

Realistically, I don't think this steps on the toes of bards too much, who really have little use for their stat buffs anyway, especially once they get ballad 2. Madrigal + Minuet is already standard at level 11+ for melees, and it's pretty much ballad / don't care at 25+ for casters. Since the red mage buff line wouldn't start until 30, I don't think bards would have anything to complain about.

Granted, this would even FURTHER entrench the requirement for rdm AND brd in every party, which I don't think is a good thing necessarily, but hell, this is the rdm board, so I thought I'd throw out something you guys might be interested in. :)

[Fogia]

My wishlist is simple : improve filters avaible and give us the possibilty to display more chat lines.

Explain me why when I cast a spell it uses THREE lines in my chat box ?

Explain me why when I want to be able to see in my chat box when a monster makes a special and what it does I have to face the hellish spam because I have to display everyone and his dog buff, casting, item uses even if he isnt in my party ?

Explain me why even if I put a bunch of filters I am spammed by messages telling me the monster another party is fighting is being paralyzed ?

Explain me why even if I put a bunch of filters I can see when someone who isn't in my group has his spell interrupted ?

and the list goes on ...

I will barely talk about the pathetic customization of font colors avaible.


Seriously let us display at least 12 chat lines, rework how some messages are displayed so they take less space (I think its a problem mainly in the NA version) and FFS give us more filters that work as supposed to.

[Tirrock]

Oh, I had completely forgotten about the font colors. Yeah, I got pretty tired of seeing spells (in my case, regen series) wearing off and I couldn't see it. I like seeing how hard people are hitting for usually, so I kind of got stuck between either missing what damage they do, or miss spells wearing off.

In the end, I just gave up and changed anything that used to be white on the chat log to red. Everything else was things I couldn't change.

[Vaiyo]

You two know that you can customize the color of text-type in 1-million+ degrees of color, right?

Because you can.

[Fogia]

This isnt the kind of customization I am talking about.

My main concern was like Tirrock, not being able to customize more deeply, like spells wearing off (which is the most important for us due to our debuff tasks and refresh to keep up) or making the difference between "other's PCs" and "ennemies" related messages.

[Tulerin]

What about stuff that rdm's do not wish to give to other classes as a sub? =p


What happens if the level limits are raised to lvl 80 and.....every level 80 with a rdm sub gets convert......

[Vaiyo]

I think that'll be the day when balance goes out the window like it did in Everquest with the release of Scars of Velious expansion. :(

[Alcueid]

>3. Ability to cast en spells on party members
When you consider the amount of spell casting a redmage does post level 60, this is not a good idea.

In my case, I usually end up finding myself fighting against recast times.
In a lot of parties I have to cast refresh on 5 people (including myself) and haste on 1~2 others.
Add that to enfeebling spells
Paralyze, Slow, Gravity, Frost (bare minimum enfeebling load)
Sometimes Bio2 or Dia2, Rasp, Drown, Blind, Silence.
Dispel
Enfeebling Recast
Healing assistance.
I find myself with a backlog of 3~4 spells even when casting constantly.
Having melees go "Give me en[element] now!" in addition to that is going to be very annoying.
I don't think red mages need any more buffing spells.

>2. B rating in 1H Sword
I agree RDM should be able to use all the one handed exe abilities without their sub.
But I guess eviceration makes up for it...
I would like at least A- in either dagger or one handed sword.

>Slow 2, Paralyze 2, Gravity 2.
I agree. Slow2, Paralyze2, Gravity2, Blind2, Silence2, would be very nice.

>Reflect: Reflect enemies' spells twice
I think this would be overpowering rdm.

>Enlight Endark
YES!

>2) Job trait - Refresh Bonus
I don't think Refresh Bonus is very necessary.
But I wish that enhance magic skill had an effect on more buffing spells.
Like maybe Refresh cures 3mp/sec for up to your enhance magic skill.

>3) MB with enfeebling spells

Can't you already MB with enfeebling spells?

>5) Job ability - Enhancing Seal (LV40/Reuse: 15 minutes)
I would love to have enhancing seal as well. But I would suggest
lvl 61 for being able to use it, maybe a 10 minute reuse like the other two seals.
If you think about it, there is only ONE spell that you would want to use this on. *coughrefreshcough*

Personally the ability I want to see the most is Enhancing Seal.

[Tirrock]

Originally posted by Vaiyo
You two know that you can customize the color of text-type in 1-million+ degrees of color, right?

Because you can.

Tell you what, I'll make a character on Fairy, get 100k gil, and give it to you if you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you can tell the diffrence between the 872913th shade of red and the 872914th shade of red.

At a glance, you can't tell the difference.
This,
And this look too similar too each other mid battle. The battle text scrolls by pretty fast...either that your you can't see what abilities monsters are buffing themselves with and are possibly missing times to dispel. (Granted, you can still hear/see it most the time, if you're paying attention.)

The point was that when you want to make: "Jenica's refresh effect wears off." something other than the color white, you can't.

[Vaiyo]

1) I actually could tell the difference between those two colors. I don't know if I can do that mid-fight, however, so ...

2) Why would you make those two colors so similar to eachother? And ...

3) If it comes down to it, you can always filter most text, make the ones you don't filter into yellow, and leave echos white.

Or you can 4) make your refresh echo very obvious like mine:

---REFRESH IS READY!

But all in all, if you cast another macro (like I usually do) that echo will be gone. I've used Refresh enough to almost have it timed by instinct, so it's not even a problem anymore if I don't see a message.

I see what you're saying though.

[Discordian]

I game with Jenica a lot. I'm normally too busy reading all of the chatlog and moving my camera around to make sure we don't get a link to notice some monster buffs that happen. I've been slowly customizing the chatlog since good things take long slow processes.

I would like to see a more granular customization system.

[Lunakat]

new spell

Call of the Chocobo
summons a chocobo to you. would use a material component.

whm's get teles and blm's get warps, brds get the choco song (lvl 74... ) Rdm's should get some kind of travel spell.

...

Lunakat

[Dierdre]

Red mages are already getting a travel spell of sorts according to many in the know. Float, lvl 74 RDM, group flee similar to chocobo muzarka (brd).

Personally, I'm happy with our melee ability, though having a decent weaponskill and a slight skill boost (to help accuracy) would be very nice.

[alpha1471]

I believe that RDM needs new enfeeblement spells rather than sword skill, enhancement, job ability etc. Something equivalent to a Dia III or Bio III would be nice. I would like to see the following.

Pain (Black Magic Enfeeblement - Red Mage only at level 60) - cost 180 MP:
Inflicts ATK down, Accuracy down, Blind, Poison, and Gravity effects.

Meltdown (White Magic Enfeeblement - Red Mage only at level 55) - cost 150 MP:
Inflicts DEF down, Evasion down, Slow, Silence, and Paralyze effects.

This would make our job easier since we have so many spells to cast. Some kind of enfeeblement that takes care of many enfeeblements at once will help greatly. The DEF down and Attack down would be 15%.

They won't be able to stack... it would seem too cheap if they did. However, you would be able to cast Pain, then cast Slow and Paralyze individually.

Basically you only need to cast these at the beginning of a fight. Then as certain status effects wears off, you can just individually recast them. (e.g. paralyze effect from Meltdown wears off, just recast paralyze)

One problem I see with this is the MP cost restricts the RDM in what spells you can cast. You probably won't have time to do anything other than enfeeble, refresh, and rest your MP.

[bonovoxpsu]

Originally posted by Dierdre
Red mages are already getting a travel spell of sorts according to many in the know. Float, lvl 74 RDM, group flee similar to chocobo muzarka (brd).

Personally, I'm happy with our melee ability, though having a decent weaponskill and a slight skill boost (to help accuracy) would be very nice.

how do you know this?

[Fogia]

Pain (Black Magic Enfeeblement - Red Mage only at level 60) - cost 180 MP:
Inflicts ATK down, Accuracy down, Blind, Poison, and Gravity effects.


This could be a good idea but how do you deal with monsters which are immute to part of the spell ?
For example, bats are impossible to blind, ghosts impossible to paralyze, etc ..

Plus we are not always doing all those spells. Most of the time blind is out since you have a PLD doing flash, silence is not always required. So why should we waste part of the MP in casting useless debuff.

Once again, like I posted previously, I think it is a request because some of us are fed up with tracking spells which is a pain with the current user interface, especially with only 8 displayed lines in the chat box and the pityful filter/color cutomization system.

[Xyphere]

Well, heres some thoughts....

1. Endarkness and Light (definately reasonable)
2. Another Fast Cast Passive at level 75 possibly?

Thats all from me...

[bonovoxpsu]

i hope we get something. demi comes to mind as a great idea for a high lvl rdm spell.

/em drools over demi...

a mob TP enfeeblement spell would be nice...

and does anyone notice that post lvl 41... we get NO more spells that are even REMOTELY rdm exclusive?

i see dia3 and bio3, but we don't have access to that.... the pro/shell line are pretty whm standard though...

[Gobo]

Gravity II is in the game data already so at least we have that to look foward to. (do /ma "Gravity II" <t> and you will get the lovely message of "____ cannot cast Gravity II")

Death is also in the game data but I highly doubt we will get that.

[Xyphere]

Meteor is in it too....and Fire V