Partys need Thiefs? (please sticky!!)

[Epheka]

I'm wandering with a well balenced party needs a thief or not and wat is everyones opinions on it in FFXI:Online because dont people need someone who can stell stuff?

[ZQM]

Anybody can sell stuff, thieves just have an easier time of getting them.

A THF isn't needed in a party like a tank or a healer. However, they're more like a bard (though not nearly as useful) in the fact that a good one will bring in better exp. Being able to place so much hate on the tank allows the damage classes to go all out, making fights quicker, which means less downtime and more exp/time.

However, since PLDs can create a lot of hate on their own, thieves won't make that great of a difference. NIN tanks on the otherhand almost always needs a THF to keep hate. It really depends on the tank on how good a THF is. If the tank can keep hate perfectly fine, another damage dealer class would be better. However, if the tank doesn't do well controling hate, a THF is basically required.

[Epheka]

Ohh and I ment steel not sell sorry about that...

[Bamce Sylph]

this needs to be stickied why? thre is like 4 threads about this topic already, /sigh

[Tokitoki]

After 33 you will most likely want a THF. The extra 250-800 damage between the levels is very helpful. The only problem is that you must have good +dex and +agi equips. right now i have +16 to each but i still need to get Leaping and Emp Pin :sweat:

Anyway it just gets better at 60... Sidewinder to Dancing Edge

SW: 1000ish damage
DE: another 1000ish damage im told w/ sa ta
Distortion chain: another 1000
MB Freeze: another 1000

a nice 4k damage there

(numbers shown are what im told as ive not reached 60 yet, its from a 60 RNG friend of mine)

[In the Shadows]

if only some of the parties can realized damage the THF can do

[John Doe III]

Originally posted by Tokitoki
SW: 1000ish damage
DE: another 1000ish damage im told w/ sa ta
Distortion chain: another 1000
MB Freeze: another 1000

a nice 4k damage there


What if you dont have a RNG with your THF? Any PT that has one tank or a BLM in it should have a THF in it. If you get a THF get a Samurai or Drg if you have a PLD tank. But before level 60 and before the sidewinder stuff posted above..you wont be doing 4k damage ..... ... ... ... ...

[Tokitoki]

I never said i did 4k damage before 60, thats some damage that one of my RNG friends did with the THF in his PT. SAM works well too, dont get me wrong, but Sidewinder is definitely better than Enpi :P

[Rones]

If the tank is holding hate just fine on his own, a thf isn't needed. As nice as the thfs bursts of dmg are, they always result in less dmg than a true dmg dealer. Some parties need thfs, some don't, depends on the quality of tank. Get another dmg dealer if the tank holds the hate effectively.

[Ele]

THF is not always needed. At around lvl 65, DRK/THF completley replaces THF at it hate controlling job.

[sudo]

"THF is not always needed. At around lvl 65, DRK/THF completley replaces THF at it hate controlling job."

I have real problems with this.

As so I have not had a chance to get thf up that high nor play at that lv yet but from the numbers alone I can't seem to find anything that will disprove this. Why bother with a thf when the drk/thf can do the job better???

Your lfg time is also gonna be lower cause ppl won't need to make a special pt to let thieves work correctly. You do more damge, can debuff better than thf/nin can with powders, you can heal yourself with drain, you got trick and sneak, you get heavier armor and more HP's, what's the hell is the point of playing a thief then???

If the only reason I'll get a pt invite post 60 is for TH 2, then the only pt's I'll probably get are lv cap break pt's where there won't be much exp at all if any.

I am most dismayed at this and I can't seem to logically find a reason why this isn't true. Plz, some higher lv thf prove me wrong! I don't wanna go play drk cause thf would be useless!

[SlipA]

Ele are you actually lvl65+, or just regurgitating stuff you read at the drk faq?

The way all these drk idolizers make it sound, every melee job except drk sucks completely after lv60-65ish. Drg sux, sam sux, thf sux, and well, monks dont seem to get the respect either. The drk/thf wannabes are going to be disappointed when they find out not all party leaders think drk is so amazing, nor care. Thf is a sweet job imo, who doesnt enjoy being rich? I'm a drk and I farm my butt off in the same zones as several thieves i see, and i can assure you they are making a lot more money with all the +steal gear they have (not to mention TH2). I dunno, i think being rich and being the least likely to die in parties is pretty cool ;) You can also sub ranger for widescan farming. I always wish i had widescan and TH, but have to sacrifice one of them, but then i guess thf prefers whm sub to farm anyway.

[Ljarin]

trick + sneak + dancing edge does a LOT better damage than trick + sneak + guillotine.

My thief is currently at 65 and I've never heard of anyone else prefering a drk/thf over a thf/xxx. In fact most people I know in my LS and my friends LS's don't even like drk's all that much and would rather have a mnk rng or drg in pt instead.

[edit] One thing I notice about drk's is that (and yes I know I'm generalising) most of them seem to think they are just overall superb jobs to invite for any pt...but pretty much everyone I know seems to disagree with them :p

[Karinya]

Sneak+trick+guillotine is bad because sneak and trick only boost the first hit (and only shift hate from the first hit? not sure about that part). Sneak+trick+cross reaper is better, but still doesn't match a thf, because:

Sneak attack and trick attack are both less effective when performed by a sub thf than when performed by a main thf. Without their damage boosts, the damage done by sneak+trick is lower, thus the hate placed on the tank by sneak+trick is lower. Even though the drk does more damage overall (because his normal hits are stronger), he puts less hate on the tank, which is the reason you wanted a thf in the first place.

And this isn't even considering thf's superior pulling abilities and TH2, or faster TP generation thanks to higher accuracy, triple attack and probably a nin sub (higher levels of dual wield reduce your delay, but not your TP per hit). Can a drk even WS every minute without double madrigal, frost and gravity?

[ajg126]

i think that some of you are mistaking the argument as to why people think that darknights are better. Its not that drk/thf will do more dmg than thief with thier WS but rather that a darknight in a party can sufficiently replace a thief in the hate control department and then surpass thief in the damage per swing department.

Thats not to say that thieves arent a good or wanted job but yes demand for thieves in a PT seems to decrease at higher levels. As i lvled after 65 i started partying with thieves a LOT less and there seemed to be a lot more of them looking for group in jeuno. This is not only because of the superior damage output by some melee jobs but also because thiefs arent very ideal in lots of lvling areas.
While dancing edge may be strong it does not create light skillchain which is the most common and most desired skillchain at higher lvls (usually). skeletons in gustav tunnel and then in king ranperre's tomb were the ideal lvling targets and drk with spinning slash becomes a lot more effective than thieves who eithere, A. use hand to hand and do bad dmg and low WS dmg, or B. use dagger and shark bite which isnt strong and dagger dmg is not so good vs bones.

[Seeker_Onos]

Very interesting thread...

I had not given much thought to leveling THF beyond using it as a farming tool...

I see a *LOT* of high level JP farmers in Palboro mines or in Giddeus (many Hoo Mjuu campers) who are RNG(70+)/THF(35+)...
they must be raking in gil hand over fist.

My endgame is BRD75/WHM37, apparently not a very good template for farming, according to some folks I game with (and based on personal experience thus far) :sweat:

[Ele]

No, i am not 65+, but i have been reading here on these forums for quite a while, and i dont just write down eveything i see from peeps here on these forums. Anyways, about sa+ta+ guilo, that is not what makes DRK replace THF. ajg126 knows what hes talking about. At lvl 65 DRK gets a scythe ws and a great sword ws that can finish the lvl 3 light and dark renkeis. THF does not have this. At 65 sa and ta just enhance the already good damage those ws produce. I dont think DRK/THF is an uber job for damage. MNK is just as much if not more damaging and RNG just owns everything. Oh and as for sa and ta only working for the first hit of guilo, that is wrong. sa will only affect the first hit and ta will affect all hits that land. I never said DRK replaces THF in every way. DRK does however take over THF's job at hate control, which is why they get pt's. So yeah, sorry i dont have personal experince of this, but im getting info from someone who does. Just trying to help peeps out in my replies. I dont think i know everything, but i saw some people confused on this thread and just tried to add what i have read here on these forums from people who know what they talking about. :)

[SlipA]

Yah didnt mean to jump on you Ele, i just don't like when hordes or people pass on 2nd hand knowledge. That's how pentathrust and guillotine got massively overhyped i would imagine, along with how uber drg/sam is, and how worthless sam main is, along with several different ppl believing dex, agi, or int are the determining factors for steal. (there are several claiming int IS the primary stat on other non-thf forums and i have yet to see proof).

The drk board would have you believe that thief will never party again after lv66, and that drk has access to the only WS that can close a big lv3 renkei. *shrug* i guess i hope that's the case, im looking forward to finally subbing thf and stealing during party. *im not bitter, i swear:biggrin: *

[Ele]

No worries slipA:) I feel your pain. People come on here and just copy shit from others just because they have lvl 50+ written on their member info. Its a shame...

[Ljarin]

Thf might not be able to use greatsword + scythe but Shark Bite works rather nicely for lv 3 renki's thanks very much :p

And I still disagree. Given the absence of a thief a drk/thf *could* somewhat fill in for the job of hate control but they don't even come close to replacing a thf for hate control.

Most drks conveniently forget to mention Shark Bite when they are talking about their uber greatsword and scythe ws's...funny that :p

[sudo]

hrm... tell me more about shark bite, I am feeling a bit better about thieves but it still irks me that drk/thf might be able to replace a thf for hate control.

Does shark bite stack with sa+ta?
At what lv can you get this and what's the average damage output for this weapon skill?

[miffycat]

Shark bite does stack with Sneak/trick
You get it at lvl 66 thf
Damage wise..

The damage of shark bite on the correct mob can be quite alot although comparatively to dancing, shark bite is weaker and you get back less tp. However, shark bite is always used for lvl 3 light renkei which allows more than 100% of additional renkei damage. Meaning a thf doing 800 on sharkbite can do up to 1200+ although usually, the renkei damage ranges between 80~110%.

Of course, when you talk about killing bones, all dagger ws regardless of which ws sucks against them even for light renkei using sharkbite or evisceration. For a thf, the best wpn against bones would be clubs doing Truestrike Ws. Truestrike stacks with sneak trick and you can do lvl 2 fusion renkei with it. The average damage of truestrike on bones in ranperre after lvl 70 can hit up to 500~700. Not bad if you consider dancing doing only 300~400 damge. When using club against bones, it would be better for a thf to sub nin and dual wield clubs with daggers. That way, his off hand dagger will help the thf to gain tp faster than a thf with only club as weapon. A lvl75 thf will only cap his clubs skill at 200.

A thf using h2h can do raging fist if he bothers to sub mnk and keeps his mnk lvl and h2h skill capped. Without mnk sub, h2h delay is really too long for a thf to perform well and a miserable Combo ws is not going to deal much damage at high lvls. Raging fist is almost a must for thfs at high lvl.

[kanomjeeb]

for some reason, after lv68+, my shark has been very powerful O_o.. more powerful than dancing..

in rancor at lv70, my shark usually does about 850-1150 on the IT lizard plus the lv3 light from 500-1000 which is so neat..

dancing does around 700-800 on those... /shrug

for me, shark is not a weak ws at all.. maybe its just me.

[Vittra]

Originally posted by Ljarin
Thf might not be able to use greatsword + scythe but Shark Bite works rather nicely for lv 3 renki's thanks very much :p

And I still disagree. Given the absence of a thief a drk/thf *could* somewhat fill in for the job of hate control but they don't even come close to replacing a thf for hate control.

Most drks conveniently forget to mention Shark Bite when they are talking about their uber greatsword and scythe ws's...funny that :p

Maybe you can explain more how trick attacking with a WS on the tank every minute doesn't secure hate as well as a Thief would? Asking for insight

[sudo]

hrm... maybe there's hope for thieves after all... but as far as I have known thieves and drk, I mostly consider drk to be a solid damage dealer and a thf to be a hate controller and not much of a damage dealer.

so if drk replaces the thf for hate control, why bother getting a thf if drk can hit harder? I must still be missing something that hasn't been said.... is it that we get hide in case of a bad pull but a drk will just end up dying? Cause it still seems that thieves won't be hitting as hard as a drk and if we loose our hate control abilities, then we're just like drk, drg, sam, rng, mnk cept weaker... damn se for nerfing us :mad:

[SlipA]

so if drk replaces the thf for hate control, why bother getting a thf if drk can hit harder?

I once got invited to a group in the 40's, joined up, and noticed there was 1 spot remaining. A few seconds after i joined, the whm said, "Ok, now lets get a real damage dealer, like a ranger or thief." :(


Sadly, pre-60, the thief fills both dmg dealer and hate control role, and after 60, the tables turn, fair imo. It's not like thf suddenly sux, its that drk finally doesnt suck.