RDM vs. BRD post 55 (i hope we win)

[fuoco]

supposing a 5 member pt is looking for a rdm or brd. and then eligible rdm and brd suddenly pops up lfg! the pt leader can't believe his luck, at that point in time, what is going on in the his head?

after lvl 55 (mage ballad II) it is becoming more apparent that we compete directly for the MP refresher role in a pt. beside the friendly pld and the occasionally drk ^^ , i think all other melee unanimously prefer BRD to us namely because of brd's acc up buffs.

so i am thinking of/listing the ways why we are BETTER than them.

1. refresh selectively picks targets for refresh and brd hardly plays magic finale for the frontliners.

2. dispell has a shorter cool down time than magic finale.

3. rdm has a slightly larger arsenal of healing spells than /whm (ie. no cure IV).

4. (rdm/blm) chainspell+escape

ways that they are better
1. melee buffs songs

2. brd does not rely on mp for effectiveness

of course rdm and brd can play nice in the same pt ^^ but i just want to be BETTER than them ie. chosen b4 them.
so.... how do u think we do?

[Apple Pie]

of course rdm and brd can play nice in the same pt
You already have your answer, don't you? You don't have to compare yourself to BRD because you already know your role is different from theirs.

To be frank, I hate to see the post like this. There used to be one in BRD board though. I'm rather surprised to see LV58 RDM, who should know enough about jobs and their roles in a PT, is still posting something like this. Do you want to see endless and meaningless controversy between two jobs?

Well, this isn't a direct answer to your question but the first job I search for is always BRD. Now I often go out with one of my LS mates and 3,500+ XP per hour is always guaranteed even at this LV.

I'm proud of being RDM and I always have full respect on BRD. I even try to level it to 60. That's it.

[Weezingpipes]

I was recently rather sad about a level ago when for the first time in a long time I didn't group with a bard. So much so I was rather annoyed and it prompted a discussion with a bard friend of mine about how bards are too good, too needed etc. That is pretty true, post 60 Madrigals have a large effect on your melee's accuracy, while Gravity simply doesn't cut it. When I partied in Onzozo with a bard, Penta Thrust was always 4-5 hits, never under. When I didn't have a bard, missed a ton more, and Penta Thrust was averaging 1-3 hits, with the rare 5 hit. Quite saddening ; ;

So I started to think RDM needed their debuffs improved to the point where a BRD or RDM could be substitutional for one another. My friend though made some very valid points that as it is, RDM already has a load of useful things - significantly higher MP than a bard will ever attain, convert, good heals, can add some damage output with nukes and to a far lesser degree, melee (can melee for free hits between spells while due to casting time of songs a bard really cannot, and their suckier skill makes for the damage addition to be completely negligable). Also think RDM has lower recast dispel which this has been significant many times in parties, where a BRD would dispel and the monster would proceed to evasion/def boost almost immediately after, leaving a long period of time where the BRD could do nothing about it. Refresh is technically better than ballads also because there is no risk of positioning screwing up refreshes contribution, where bard relies on specific positioning to make sure the party gets the biggest benefit they can without overlapping songs.

Personally escape isn't really a factor for me, often times in parties a RDM/WHM is more useful than a RDM/BLM if only as someone also to do status cures instead of the WHM (not always the case, it is specific to what/where you are fighting). Also had a pretty decent party of me THF RDM BLM BRD PLD doing Wheeling Thrust -> Shark Bite for Light, which was pretty much annhilating monsters with the BLM's magic bursts. RDM had little trouble keeping up on heals and refreshes. Exp would have been better if everyone in the party was the same level, but the set up was good, and thankfully no deaths cuz only having Raise 1 would be the suck. Lack of group buffs also sucks, but RDM just P4 the PLD, me and the THF, and BRD did protectra 2 for the mages. In addition, have done plenty of parties without BLM but with a RDM and BRD. Downtime is basically non existant and with high damage melee, lacking a BLM isn't necessarily a bad thing (again, these set ups are pretty specific to what/where you are fighting).

All that being said, BRD is especially important over 60 to a party, but their role is entirely specific in support. They will never be even a remotely adequate substitute to a WHM as primary healer, never add significant damage output and my friend was right, if RDM could enfeeble as support to a point which was comparatively as good as BRD support with buff songs, there would literally be 0 reason to ever invite a bard. BRD also becomes less important the better melee equipment is too, but it does require incredibly high quality equipment to make Madrigals and Minuets relatively unimportant, which is unrealistic for many parties, where as a RDM will keep its own value regardless of the equipment quality of the group members.

20 million gils til I don't need a bard! Taking donations ; ;

[fuoco]

hmm sorry i did not intend to start a flame war. lemme show u why i post this.

Originally posted by Apple Pie

You already have your answer, don't you? You don't have to compare yourself to BRD because you already know your role is different from theirs.


i think at higher lvls for a taru rdm, my dmg effectiveness decreases drastically. this is expected with C in our elemental skills and lower int. we do less dmg with magic bursts (low int) and get higher chance for elemental resists (low elemental skills). the only things we can offer to a pt is our elemental skills+refresh+dispell.

however...

ask any melee friend that does not use mp and they'll tell u they prefer brd more than us, because they say brd can do refresh and dispell and more!

ie.

acc up >> enfeebling

result, if there is a 5 member pt lacking a brd and rdm they'll choose a brd over a rdm.

Originally posted by Apple Pie


I'm rather surprised to see LV58 RDM, who should know enough about jobs and their roles in a PT, is still posting something like this. Do you want to see endless and meaningless controversy between two jobs?


hehe i may be 58 but i am still learning my job with patches and what not ^^.

Originally posted by Apple Pie

Well, this isn't a direct answer to your question but the first job I search for is always BRD. Now I often go out with one of my LS mates and 3,500+ XP per hour is always guaranteed even at this LV.


since you are already a rdm i understand why u look for a brd instead of a rdm , i would too naturally if i were ^^. My question was whether we could compete with a brd for the 6th spot in a pt looking for a brd or rdm .

Originally posted by Apple Pie

I'm proud of being RDM and I always have full respect on BRD. I even try to level it to 60. That's it.

amen. i like brd too if they're in my pt.
i hiss at them if i'm lfg with them. actually i just slap them ... endlessly ...
:spin:

[Moggymog]

Yes, I hate to be frank. But if you have a BLM and a WHM in a party and the choice was BRD or RDM to fill the last slot. They'll take the bard, every time. No question. Futile to deny it.

Both jobs have different roles to play and both offer something to the party. Both can be effectively played together as well. In fact, I've played with a bard for a while now. But the Bard will be taken over the red mage. It has more to bring to the party than the RDM. Ballad is more liked than refresh, madrigal and minuet are more appreciated than debuffs.

I've even seen 60+s who say they didn't even know gravity lowers evasion. That says a lot.

[Weezingpipes]

If anything Refresh is more appreciated than Ballads. Like I mentioned don't have to worry about overlapping issues, and say a PLD could get Refresh and get Minuets/Madrigals without having to worry about having an mp buff going at the same time. In that regard refresh is superiour. It isn't that madrigal and minuet are more appreciated than debuffs, they are simply better. You deal more damage with minuet than you would without it and only having dia 2, and you miss less with madrigal than you do with gravity on a monster. It isn't so much people don't know the benefit, just those debuffs are incredibly weak in comparison to the relevant buff songs. Sort of why I think the enfeebles should be made better, but if they are too good there is literally no reason for a bard.

[Deodorant]

The main advantage bard has over rdm is bard's ability to buff the melees (whereas rdm is limited to haste, really).

I think it's pretty obvious; if a party has 5 members already, the smart move would be to choose a bard over an rdm. Good bards are better than the best rdm's at keeping mp flow going. Sadly, even though I am an rdm, I must admit that bards are the superior support job.

As a trade-off, bards get shitty looking AF, and absolutely no solo capability, so not too many complaints from me :biggrin:

Having said that, in my opinion the best backline has to be blm/whm, brd/whm and rdm/whm (assuming nobody dies).

edit
Originally posted by fuoco
amen. i like brd too if they're in my pt.
i hiss at them if i'm lfg with them.
Lies. Everyone knows bards get mass invites to parties without having to put up the party invite sign :spin:

[Moggymog]

Weezing Pipes -

You're only stressing the points that I already made. By saying that someone doesn't know what a certain spell does, its because they can't tell if it really does it. If one doesn't know gravity reduces evasion, then they won't expect it. They won't see a huge improvement in their accuracy, only the creature moving at a slower rate. Compare the debuffs to songs. On second thought, maybe its better if we don't.

I'm level 73. At my level you'll see a lot of mages with Errant's gear on. I see BLMs and WHMs landing any debuff they want against an enemy, except for things like silence. You do need a red mage to keep the silence up repeatedly against weapons. But silence is really the only move I see other mages have problem landing and keep landed on a target. And that's really disappointing.

People say Red Mage is the best enfeebler. Sure, it is. I can enfeeble better than anyone at my level. But I can see other mages enfeebling pretty must almost as good. Let's say, "Good enough." I can't madrigal/minuet the party, either. And we all know, a lot of the creatures around 63+ start going up on the evasion and hit points.

The only real way I see my self keeping downtime low that a Bard can't do, is healing more than the white mage and converting when I need to. I can always keep the WHMs MP very high, and ninja tank helps ^^ (war/nin, nin/war).

[fuoco]

i have read posts by Moggymog and weezing pipes at higher levels it seems that our gimpness is exposed even further.

the reason i gather, is our jack-of-all-trades trait. other classes can do what we do, as illustrated by Moggymog's enfeebling example.
our A in enfeebling won't be a consideration for pt invites. our refresh role can be substituted by brd when they get ballad II.

ballad I + ballad II > refresh

lately i pt with a japanese summoner with fenrir m(_ _)m and at that time she has acc up and stat boost. at higher lvls she will have dispell-ra.

edit:
i removed uneeded pessimism from the post. i still love rdm and i will continue to play it until i am done with ffxi.

[Spiriter]

I would just like to point out one thing

Bard = Pure Support Class

Rdm = Mix even solo ability(better for farming etc..)


How about you just compare your ability as a rdm to another rdm?
Apples to apples/ Oranges to Apples

I am only a lvl 30 rdm, 32 whm and 31 Bard And I dont know what its like at higher lvls yet but Ill tell you this. All the jobs are different and have advantages and disadvantages.

[Lucy]

hmm,

If the original thread starter is asking about which will win as in PT selection, I would say the BRD will get the invitation. However there is a really big chance that the RDM and BRD looking for PT will get into the same PT together.

I have no further comment about why is that as everybody has said the same thing too. I myself will want a BRD in PT, as they most of the time reduces downtime thus increasing EXP that you get.

Sorry if this is off topic but I want to say here about my experience with RDM/BLM BRD/WHM and BLM/WHM support line. We were fighting weapons in Ro'Maeve at 71 pass the moongate. I have to say the the exp that we got was very nice. We usually chain 4 to 5 chain with 230+ last chain. Every weapon just die through this process, Melee get TP, Light renkei followed by 2 MB ..... 100+>300+>800+> 2 MB 800+>400+ .... If that wasnt enough to kill it BLM just continue nuking it till it dies.

Actually I was afraid that I will be healing a lot since I'm the main healer but we kill it quite fast so I didnt have to Cure that much. Fortunately PT leader said its OK if I keep my blm sub as my WHM is still level 1 :sweat:

[Weezingpipes]

I am only a lvl 30 rdm, 32 whm and 31 Bard And I dont know what its like at higher lvls yet but Ill tell you this. All the jobs are different and have advantages and disadvantages.

And those differences just get larger and larger over time. Until 55 or so I had no real preference between BRD or RDM. Often prefered RDM because Refresh at 41, Gravity seemed effective enough to lower evasion and help melee miss rate. 60+ is when it got rather sad. The gap in usefulness in BRD vs RDM is much wider, enough to say RDM is at a notable disadvantage in the support role. They aren't quite as effective nukers at higher levels due to lower elemental skill too, and lower spell lines anyway.

I'm seeing a trend 60 in the "advantages and disadvantages" department 60+. Some jobs have many advantages ie BRD is incredibly secure in its support role, RDM is not quite as good as it used to be. Certain melee jobs excel, others fall terribly behind. Point being, not really seeing disadvantages to some jobs so much. Last night was in a party fighting Steelshells, rather annoying because they were basically spamming stoneskin and def boost constantly and not bubble showering much. Anyway, made me wish I had a RDM, but the more I thought on it, just made me wish my BLM had subbed RDM instead for Dispel, since the BRD's dispel couldn't keep up due to longer cycle time, and the BLM was doing tremendous damage. Literally the only disadvantage the BRD had was slow recast of dispel, and it could have been worked around simply by the BLM subbing RDM instead.

I'm also seeing an utter truck load of RDM who I leveled with at one point or another spending as much time seeking parties as melee jobs do, while mediocre at best bards are being invited over RDM simply because the buffs help more than enfeebles. Not a statement about the people playing RDM because many of them are quite good, but does show a bit of an imbalance.

Honestly I would love if RDM and BRD were equally substitutional as they were at lower levels, when debuffs had a noticeable effect and helped the melee a lot. This would of course mean BRD would need to get some things as compensation (maybe Silence/Stun song for example would help round them out better). Many people I know absolutely do not want to party without a bard simply because it makes that much of a difference.

My best suggestion to many RDM is do set ups like Lucy described. I've been in groups with RDM as primary healer and simply because you kill fast enough it works out ok, and amounts to less downtime with ballads and refresh.

[Carbon]

As of this point (Lv61), I prefer RDM to BRD. Maybe part of the reason is that I've never partied with a bard since.....Level 40 I think.

The two main reasons why I prefer RDM is 1.) backup heals and 2.) magic burst.

The RDM in my static party still does rather impressive MBs at Lv60 in Valley of Sorrows. BLM might do a 600 point MB on Distortion, RDM follows with a 300 point MB. BRD can't do that. Does this change later on? Does RDM MB become progressively weaker?

Also note the severe lack of bards. I don't think RDMs will face too much competition from BRDs, simply because there aren't enough bards to begin with.

Every bard friend I knew in game has since retired the job, complaining that it was too boring. Highest level bard I know and partied with stopped at 41.

[Weezingpipes]

Every bard friend I knew in game has since retired the job, complaining that it was too boring. Highest level bard I know and partied with stopped at 41.

Kinda funny since most people I know who started leveling bards did so due to the lack of them. Even the most mediocre played bard can add more to a party than a well played RDM filling the support role simply by design (by mediocre played, I mean the ones who simply play ballads as they fade, play madrigal/minuet and redo those as they fade, nothing more). On my server there is basically 1-2 bards at around every level over 60, and they all know being a bard is an easy ticket to 75. They level so fast though often you have to wait for the next up and coming bards to group with to catch up ; ;

Anyway the other difference to is Threnodies help damage a fair bit (bursts and skillchain damage), so even though a bard cannot burst for damage, the end result is basically the same, in regards to magic bursts at least.

[AtraposBLM]

BRD > RDM from lv55+. Simple as that.

Equally skilled players, a bard is simply more helpful.

Should you really be worried? No. Do a /sea all brd 55-75 and you'll see that it's severely lacking, as getting bard to level 25 is harder than just about anything else in this game, and will only get worse when PS2 gets released. A lot of uninformed people just don't bother to play with a bard.

Also, a lot of people don't like playing with bards as bad bards are nearly useless - i.e. ones that don't keep ballads refreshed, minuet refreshed, threnodies at the right time, dispel at the right time, etc. The same can be said about redmages though. I can't count how many times I've gone multiple fights without Refresh, despite me saying Refresh please! ^^; over and over. Also, redmages that just never dispel piss me off...plus, it's harder to keep 5-6 people refreshed (drk, pld, whm, blm, blm, rdm party, for example) than it is to keep ballad on the same people (although the dark would rather have the accuracy up songs).

You'll be competing for a specialty role...you'll get parties faster than melee and blm's in most scenarios, unless there are tons of rdm's on for some reason (rarer than lots of blm's, drk's, sam's, etc.).

Don't whine about not getting invites. People don't like it when they've been used to 2-3 hours LFP when you've gotten a free ride.

[Weezingpipes]

Don't whine about not getting invites. People don't like it when they've been used to 2-3 hours LFP when you've gotten a free ride.

No shit haha.

[kisada]

Originally posted by Weezingpipes
Don't whine about not getting invites. People don't like it when they've been used to 2-3 hours LFP when you've gotten a free ride.

No shit haha.

Preach on.

[Kiyosuki]

Well I know that Red Mages ability to keep mp going I think edges out Bard's mp regaining ability just a tiny bit.

But Bard's have songs to enchance pretty much everything so that more than makes up for it.

I don't think Red Mages are better than Brd's because like so many said, they're purpose is so different. Red Mages are masters of status and stratgetic magic, who can do a little bit of Blm and Whm to make a party's backline flow better, which naturally makes the whole pt flow better.

Bard's are just pure status enhancement, they can't MB or do a bit of everything plus some unique abilities. But they're enhancing makes your party go much faster.

I don't see the argument though since both of these classes get pt invites that make everyone else envious.

[Moggymog]

The argument, nay the landslide, was a bard's importance over the Red Mage to a party as a whole. Besides that, we all know that both classes are different, played different and add something different to a party in some way. It's just that you'll find more people playing Red Mage and see more Bards being taken over Red Mages.

What I noticed that I could for a long, long time is the ability to keep the WHM's MP up, something a Bard really can't do at all. After all, it should be every RDM's job to make sure the WHM has as much MP as it can since we can convert. But its hard to do that for some creatures like those Infernal Weapons at Ro'Meave. :dead:

[Kiyosuki]

It really is just a question of availability.

Red Mages and Bard's are both really sought after jobs, but Bards tend to be more rare and harder to find than a Red Mage, so when one finds a Bard available they usually jump at the chance of getting such a hard to find class.

I'm sure if the roles were reveresed, and Red Mage was the more rare of the two it'd be different.

[Moggymog]

Not true at all.

In many cases, I do find Bards more available than Red mages at 73-74, a lot more bards. And they will always get parties over the red mages. I even have a 73 Bard friend and he'd be invited to a party first and then me second.

I was even told last night to not waste MP on enfeebles. I can see why a Paladin might like a red mage so much, but everyone one else will tell you "Bard." And that's just the way it is, availability or not.

[fuoco]

at the rate how IT mobs in terrigan resisted my enfeebles, i figure that if there are 4 members or more members in pt who use mp (whm, blm, pld, drk) i should just keep dia2(sticks 100%) on the said mob and save mp on refresh and the occasional dispell. it was a full time job keeping everyone, including myself, happy and refreshed so the role of the enfeebler (para, slow) is of lesser importance.

and yes pld and the casting-happy drk love a rdm more than brd ;)

[COWTIPPA]

I Luv RDM and all but this job is getting stupid. My enfeeb skill would be maxed out at my level but spells like Para, blind, slow, and gravity etc would never stick. Most of the time the only way it stick is if I had to keep casting it until it sticks. which mean I just blew away like 15-25% of my MP. But thats not what piss me off the most. What really gets me mad is that when blind, Para stick to the mob you can't even tell its active...no difference at all. I watch many fights after para, blind sticks to the mob and looked over the whole log after battle...their is like no difference..para might of got the mob to not attack once or twice...and blinded 4 get it...waste of MP unless the mob is easy or below. As a RDM we are the master of Enfeeb...but what is the point of Enfeeb when it doesn't make that much of a difference or even any difference at all. I know a lot of RDM must know what I am talking about. The truth is that I feel we are not needed anymore unless someone wants refresh or mob needs to be dispeled. (NOTE BARD's mages ballad is as good as refresh with good WHM or BLM know how to spend their MP)

Last thing I wanna say is our job is to refresh and Enfeeb right? (right) ^^ but how many of you notice WHM always cast Dia para, slwo etc and BLM cast bio, poison, blind, etc so what is left for us to enfeeb..lol (the ANSWER IS NOTHING!!!!!!) so my job is just to dispel and refresh. I know some of you are going to say that RDM can do some melee as well. WRONG!!! WRONG!! WRONG !! WRONG!!! we do like no DMG if most 5DMG per hit and 6-10dmg from Enblizzard, Enfire etc. But don't forget we miss 90% of the time..what I'm trying to say is as I get higher level I find myself useless. Bard has way more thing they can do for the party even thou they can't MB. But our MB doesn't do any DMG more time resist and take only 50-100 DMG when I wasted like over 100MP for a cast. (what a rip off!)

I know I sound angry and I am seeking help ^^ but lets be real RDM needs to be improved. We might be able to do a little of everything but we suck at everything. We're not even average on melee or magic...we're below average! Also Efeeb is pointless, all the other mages can honestly enfeeb as good as us. (not better but as good or even)...if you don't think so you're just lying to yourself.

The only thing we have going for ourself as RDM is the pipming RDM gear!! WOOT! (playa for life)

Over all what I'm trying to say is Bard will get PT b4 RDM cuz other mage can do what we do so we're not needed. With a smart BLM or WHM you wont need refresh. Mages ballad II is good enough.

BUT I WILL BE A RDM till THE DAY I DIE.


LS ** DeadlyAllinace **

[Arli]

I'll have to echo Apple's sentiments in that I really hate seeing posts like this. If anything, a BRD and RDM are the perfect complementary couple for a PT. I'd kick out a DPS class before choosing between a BRD and a RDM. Both classes, while they share MP regen and dispelling abilities, are fundamentally different and should be respected for their roles. The whole, this class gets teams easier than others is entirely preposterous.

Team composition is based on what the PT leader determines to be needed, and I have met very, very few PT leaders I credit with good sense. This whole debate is apples and oranges.

RDM enfeeblement skills are pretty much our trademark, just as PT buffing is for BRD. Both are important. At level 60+, the RDM with AF enhancements will be the only caster who manages to stick their enfeebles. If the PT doesn't seem to grasp the importance of having Paralysis, Slow, Gravity or Blind stick and stay on an IT mob, then they need to go back to Valkrum and "relearn" their basics. The fact that we can contribute to MBs and can cast Dia II as well as Bio II (yes I know they don't stack, but we have the capacity for casting either) only add to our repertoire. Of course if these are unimportant, then obviously the team isn't fighting anything challenging.

Some teams love their BRDs, others adore their RDMs - the best teams make room for both. I love my refresh, but I love it even more when I have Mage's Ballad I & II with it. We're equally important, and do our best when teamed together. That's my 2 cents.

[fuoco]

i don't hate this thread because discussion about our class from this "negative angle" lets me know, by feedback, how other rdm think about the weaknesses and strengths of our class.

i won''t deny this chance to let myself be more informed. :thumbsup:

[COWTIPPA]

Arli this post isn't about having a perfect PT...its about who gets the last spot between a RDM or a BARD in a PT. of course we all want RDM and a bard in the same PT..but this thread is about if their is only one spot left who will people pick. But I understand everything u are saying that a bard and RDM make a killer PT. However thats not what the post is about.

I think Fuoco is right. its always good to hear feed back from other players. This tread isn't a fight between bard and RDM its more of everyone 2cent on what they think of RDM and BARD. I luv reading post on my class and how other RDM feel about it. From what I have read I think 90% of the RDM feel the same way. we need to be improved a little.

Its just kinda funny I been playing RPG since Intellivision and Atari 2600. From what I remeber from NES RDM was a killer class. They were advance class and very powerful mages. But Square has made RDM into a joke. ( I miss the old school RDM ) I wish square would make us RDM back into the mages we 1st were in FFI. I know its not fair but I think they really sould beef us RDM up a little on melee and INT.

[Deodorant]

But Square has made RDM into a joke.
Best post ever :thumbsup:

80% of the people I know won't even bother going to exp without either a bard or an rdm. A joke? I don't think so!

[Arli]

Cowtippa, I really don't think RDMs need beefing up, but I do think we need some more specialization after level 50. We have a respectable amount of power and capacity, especially considered to the original version of the RDM in FFXI, I just want something more to look forward to as I move further into my 60s. The only things I have to look forward to are more poweful nukes (which are nice), but aren't role defining. Refresh, Convert and Dispel are great, but as the enfeeblement masters, I really don't like being defined by just these abilities, especially since BRDs are very capable dispellers and MP regenerators.I'm sure they're not too thrilled about it either, but they do have some incredible melee buffs and get some remarkable songs at 70+. We remain virtually unchanged for the duration of our careers after our AF.

Dia II is WHM castable and Bio II is BLM castable, and Gravity doesn't have a noticable increase in decreasing enemy evasion from the first time i've been able to cast it (Maybe Apple Pie can prove me wrong). We have the highest enfeeblement magic of all the classes, but we really don't have anything we can truly call our *own* outside of Gravity and Phalanx.

[Apple Pie]

I wish this thread had better title, not someting like "vs" :P

[Kiyosuki]

Maybe advanced spells like a Dispel II?

Or maybe Enthunder II, Enaero II etc. Make it so its not too much more effective but it can be cast on other characters?

Would a Mighty Guard like spell work in this game if it were tweaked at all?

What about like...Float, reduce the effect of AOE's.

I can't remember too many classic FF spells at the moment. But there has to be a lot they can use to fit Red Mage's playing style as far as uniqe spells go.

[COWTIPPA]

Deodorant I don't mean it that people don't want to PT with RDM...read it carefully please. I'm saying after 50plus we need more spells to make us stand out and something that belongs to RDM alone.

I also didn't say people didn't want to PT with RDM and bard. I'm just saying RDM need to be improved. RDM is not even close to what they we're from FFI. Thats what I mean as RDM has turn into a joke. PLEASE READ CAREFULLY.

[Kiyosuki]

Yeah its understandable. But its also an age old gripe. Its like when people complain about a fighting game character not having the exact same moves it had in a previous installment, or the same fighting style. Or even better, its like how some complained at first about Fox fighting outside of an Arwing in Smash Brothers, since it wasn't close to the game. But since its a completely different style of game, it wouldn't of worked.
Things change from game to game, or change to fit a new style of gameplay.

Red Mages may not play like they do in FF1, or even FFTA. But so many other jobs play differently than past installments too. Cecil as a Paladin was a hardcore damage dealer type who happened to be able to cover. The total opposite of how Paladins are now. Even in FFTA where Paladin's were a defensive class, they had some moves that allowed them to do great damage at various points. Ninja's are probably the best example. It still takes people by surprise when someone tells a new player that Ninja's are considered a tank class. In other FF game a Ninja's tend to be very offensive characters with a variety of enfeebles to cripple, especially in the Tactics series,aside from Edge and Yuffie, who were more indirect and didn't have the best offense, a concept I guess they hybrided with a similar play style to FFTA's Ninja minus the insane offense for this game. And Ranger's, having Bows and Arrows, as well as Gun's outdamage Swords and other melee weapons in an FF game is certainly a first (Even though its realistically more plausible. :biggrin: But this is FF, who cares of total realism.) Really in this game, the only character's that are relatively unchanged in playing style from most FF games are White Mage, Black Mage, and Monk. White Magic and Black magic, speaks for itself. And something that just hits alot, and hits more and more as it gets higher. And even the White magic and Black magic differ a bit from some FF games.

So I guess if someone likes the playing style of a class in this game better in another game, naturally you'll wish it was more like that. But well you know, stuff changes from game to game.

Besides, Red Mages have the most unique job abilities and exclusive spells out of all the mages. None of the other mages get nearly the same luxuries a Red Mage gets in job abilities and the few exclusive spells you do have are almost always very, very useful. I personally don't see how much more defined Red Mages need to be. New spells is always good but they're already pretty individually unique to me.

[Kxpuc]

pretty much the only thing i want added for now atleast for rdm's is to get regen 2 make Clear mind stack from sub jobs and enfeebling seal that either doubles the enfeeble damage (dia/bio/poison) /activation rate(paralyze) /efffiveness (slow)
oh and maybe a natural glow hehe

[macross_sdf1]

Bards will get invites over you yes. But Not as many bards, cause bards suck for soloing. Level one up if you want to get to 75 easy or if you wanna feel wanted. You'll get to 75 but you can't solo mobs as well as a rdm for gils etc. Stoneskin phallanx is quite uber for farming, and your bard gets nothing like this. Red mages are strong, its why maat is so frigging hard and had to be gimpfied last patch.

But anyways, you still won't have a problem getting a group. Who cares if bard is chosen over you. I never turned on lfg after lvl 41, and I still got tons of invites. Hardly any NA players play rdm or bard, so you are in high demand. Everyone wants to be the super fighter guy. On the day of ps2 release, who all 1-2 and I saw that 90% are fighters hehe. Heck I've seen a 75 red mage with no subjob, cause refresh is better than no refresh.

Best groups have both a bard and rdm anyways. Usualy wont need whm, but at certain lvls you do, when the best stuff to kill are cockatrice etc. Also raise 2-3 is nice, but usualy you can just bum one off another whm in the zone.

[Synbios]

Originally posted by macross_sdf1

Best groups have both a bard and rdm anyways. Usualy wont need whm, but at certain lvls you do, when the best stuff to kill are cockatrice etc. Also raise 2-3 is nice, but usualy you can just bum one off another whm in the zone. Well said.

[maytrix]

RDM vs. BRD? A red mage would fuck a bard up. In a fight that is.

[Peanut_Midgard]

Have BRD leveled up and offer it as a subjob if the party already has a BLM and a WHM. It works wonder post 50. Yes I have tried it and will continue to leave that as an option for xp parties with the right setup. Even gimped madrigal was a big help to the melees. I know because once I was RDM/BRD in a party with BLM and WHM, during one particularly long fight madrigal wore off before fight ended the melee immediately noticed accuracy difference.

Have three subs to offer, BLM, WHM and BRD. Red Mage is about versatility right? So this just further extends our role in party :)

[Patchinko]

Ballista makes this thread obsolete. *^-^*