Relationship between Slow and MND

[Apple Pie]

Wow, I think I found a good one...

Anyway, let me first post an equation I found here (http://jbbs.shitaraba.com/bbs/read.cgi/game/1578/1071742323/790) to calculate additional delay caused by Slow spell. It is,

[Additional Delay] = 0.002 x ‚l‚m‚c + 1.1368 = (100 x 0.2 ‚˜ ‚l‚m‚c + 13.68) / 100

When MND = 0, you only add 14% to their delay with Slow but when MND = 81, you add 30%. 30% is said to be the maximum.

Here's how these mathmaticians did...

1) Measure how long it takes Tiny Mandragora to attack them 20 times.

2)
Without Slow on: 120 seconds
With Slow on:

Enfeebling Skill 225?@INT109?@MND120?@156secs
Enfeebling Skill 225?@INT109?@MND111?@156secs
Enfeebling Skill 225?@INT109?@MND111?@156secs
Enfeebling Skill 225?@INT109?@MND111?@156secs
Enfeebling Skill 235?@INT92?@MND109?@156secs
Enfeebling Skill 225?@INT102?@MND98?@156secs
Enfeebling Skill 225?@INT77?@MND90?@156secs
Enfeebling Skill 225?@INT77?@MND81?@156secs
Enfeebling Skill 225?@INT68?@MND79?@156secs
Enfeebling Skill 225?@INT71?@MND75?@155secs
Enfeebling Skill 225?@INT71?@MND66?@153secs
Enfeebling Skill 235?@INT71?@MND66?@153secs
Enfeebling Skill 55?@INT50?@MND66?@153secs
Enfeebling Skill 55?@INT47?@MND60?@151secs
Enfeebling Skill 55?@INT47?@MND50?@149secs
Enfeebling Skill 58?@INT46?@MND39?@146secs
Enfeebling Skill 105?@INT51?@MND39?@146secs

Great work done by Mr. Enda in shitaraba.com (http://jbbs.shitaraba.com/)

I'm wondering if there's such a relationship between Paralyze and MND as Silverquick stated some time ago.

[Silverquick]

Well Grendal I can't claim the results on the Mind vs Enfeeble skill on Paralyze, that was from another site and translating test results,

However I did run some test results on the /blm Benefit of Mana Conserve...

Black Mage Sub for the Red Mage and the 20th level abillity called Mana Conserve. Tests I Personally ran on the /BLM sub and Mana conserve abillity...


Spells Used in the round:

Fire 24 mana
Aero 18 mana
Thunder 37 Mana
Blizzard 30 mana
Stonega 37 Mana

Total Mana Cost Normally: 147

Tested on Ten Targets consisting of Goblin Leechers/Butchers/Gamblers in Valkrum Desert.
Test results of actual cost with Mana Conserve

Test 1. 134
Test 2. 131
Test 3. 102
Test 4. 99
Test 5. 126
Test 6. 110
Test 7. 146
Test 8. 119
Test 9. 141
Test 10. 130

Mana Conserve Average Cost: 123
Normal Cost: 147

Approximately a 20% Mana reduction with Mana Conserve Abillity each combat.


------------------------------------
RELATING THESE TEST NUMBERS TO AN ACTUAL COMBAT
------------------------------------

For example.... throwing out your string of Debuffs with Dia II is about 107 total mana cost (ie... Paralyze, slow, gravity, Blind, Dia II, etc togather).

In your first Casting of your Full round of Debuffs (107 mana) and your Initial Refresh (40 mana)... ie... 147 total mana cost... you can expect the actual numbers to like this... using the numbers from the test

Example #1: 1st round of Debuffs
Round of spells normally costing 147 mana
Combat 1. 134
Combat 2. 131
Combat 3. 102
Combat 4. 99

When you cast that entire string of Debuffs... and your initial refresh.

Then, on your next round of spells in the same combat... say... 3 more refreshes (120 mana) and one Fire spell (24 mana) ...
This is roughly another 147 mana grouping (Yes I know it doesn't add up but its an example)

Example #2: Round of Refreshes and Magic Burst.
Round of spells normally costing 147 total mana
Combat 1. 126
Combat 2. 110
Combat 3. 146
Combat 4. 119

Thus you will get something knocked off every single round of spells you do this will vary generally between 5%-35%. Average of 20%.
------

BOTTOM LINE:
Normal cost for All spells cast in Each combat was 147 mana on the initial round (Enfeebles and 1 refresh), then another 147 on the next round (3 refreshes and a Magic Burst) for a total of 294 total mana.

However... With Mana Conserve on a normal 294 point total mana cost for combat... actual mana spent is...
Combat 1. 260
Combat 2. 241
Combat 3. 248
Combat 4. 218

So... yes, given the entire single combat, it will go off and save you a great deal of mana

[Apple Pie]

Excellent Job!

Yes, my default sub-job is always BLM. It works best for me.

[Kxpuc]

and this is why subbing blm is better then getting direct MP with summoner, being a rdm to me is all about MP managment and debuffs

[Synbios]

Originally posted by Silverquick
Well Grendal I can't claim the results on the Mind vs Enfeeble skill on Paralyze, that was from another site and translating test results,

However I did run some test results on the /blm Benefit of Mana Conserve...

Black Mage Sub for the Red Mage and the 20th level abillity called Mana Conserve. Tests I Personally ran on the /BLM sub and Mana conserve abillity...


Spells Used in the round:

Fire 24 mana
Aero 18 mana
Thunder 37 Mana
Blizzard 30 mana
Stonega 37 Mana

Total Mana Cost Normally: 147

Tested on Ten Targets consisting of Goblin Leechers/Butchers/Gamblers in Valkrum Desert.
Test results of actual cost with Mana Conserve

Test 1. 134
Test 2. 131
Test 3. 102
Test 4. 99
Test 5. 126
Test 6. 110
Test 7. 146
Test 8. 119
Test 9. 141
Test 10. 130

Mana Conserve Average Cost: 123
Normal Cost: 147

Approximately a 20% Mana reduction with Mana Conserve Abillity each combat.


------------------------------------
RELATING THESE TEST NUMBERS TO AN ACTUAL COMBAT
------------------------------------

For example.... throwing out your string of Debuffs with Dia II is about 107 total mana cost (ie... Paralyze, slow, gravity, Blind, Dia II, etc togather).

In your first Casting of your Full round of Debuffs (107 mana) and your Initial Refresh (40 mana)... ie... 147 total mana cost... you can expect the actual numbers to like this... using the numbers from the test

Example #1: 1st round of Debuffs
Round of spells normally costing 147 mana
Combat 1. 134
Combat 2. 131
Combat 3. 102
Combat 4. 99

When you cast that entire string of Debuffs... and your initial refresh.

Then, on your next round of spells in the same combat... say... 3 more refreshes (120 mana) and one Fire spell (24 mana) ...
This is roughly another 147 mana grouping (Yes I know it doesn't add up but its an example)

Example #2: Round of Refreshes and Magic Burst.
Round of spells normally costing 147 total mana
Combat 1. 126
Combat 2. 110
Combat 3. 146
Combat 4. 119

Thus you will get something knocked off every single round of spells you do this will vary generally between 5%-35%. Average of 20%.
------

BOTTOM LINE:
Normal cost for All spells cast in Each combat was 147 mana on the initial round (Enfeebles and 1 refresh), then another 147 on the next round (3 refreshes and a Magic Burst) for a total of 294 total mana.

However... With Mana Conserve on a normal 294 point total mana cost for combat... actual mana spent is...
Combat 1. 260
Combat 2. 241
Combat 3. 248
Combat 4. 218

So... yes, given the entire single combat, it will go off and save you a great deal of mana Conserve MP > Auto Refresh. Down with the overrated SMN sub. >.>

[Tomoh]

Looks like I will need to go fight Leviathon again to get the Water Ring (Lv65, Def2, Water days: MP-15%, MP Conserve +15).

Another great ring for the mages is Ice Ring (Lv65, Def2, Ice Days: MP-15%, Attack Magic +15), which you can get by beating Shiva.

[Apple Pie]

Conserve MP > Auto Refresh. Down with the overrated SMN sub. >.>
Yeah, I guess I'm not gonna raise SMN :P

BTW, I didn't know your RDM already reached LV43, Synbios...

[Synbios]

Originally posted by Apple Pie

Yeah, I guess I'm not gonna raise SMN :P

BTW, I didn't know your RDM already reached LV43, Synbios... It's 48 now. :P Haven't updated my signature. I never liked subbing SMN anyway. >.>

[Karinya]

Originally posted by Apple Pie
Excellent Job!

Yes, my default sub-job is always BLM. It works best for me.
Well, I certainly will think about changing to BLM sub after level 40, but in the 30s, WHM sub is better, IMO. Divine seal, curaga, the -na spells, group Bar spells are better than anything BLM sub offers before Conserve MP (Elemental Seal, Shock, Rasp and some -ga nukes that you probably don't want to cast anyway). I'm not impressed by RDM nuking ability even with Magic Attack Bonus, and Elemental Seal/Sleep usually just results in someone else in the PT breaking the Sleep a second later. :mad:

But if these results are correct, conserve MP is a very useful ability especially when you are trying to keep up a Refresh cycle and cast Dia II or other expensive spells.

It doesn't seem that SMN is a useful sub for RDM - and the same arguments probably apply for WHM/BLM vs WHM/SMN too. The game needs more mage jobs.

[Silverquick]

Actually I personally got quite a bit of use out of the Ga- spell line for MBs. They are not as resistable as normal direct damage spells and score a higher average damage than your other spells in that line.

Also I have used Shock regularly prior to casting my round of enfeebles to decrease the Mind score of my enemy that allows me to land Enfeebles much easier and with longer duration and greater effect on the enemy.

Burn reduces an opponents INT casting burn prior to a nuke you will notice the damage increases on your Nuke and also the resist rate is lower.

But thats just the normal things /blm adds and doesn't include the Int and other things like Warp and Aspir and Drain.

That said, I have always felt the Whm sub and he Blm sub are equal in benefits and that you can't go wrong with either of them.

I also do not feel the Smn sub is all that bad either. All 3 of them will enhance the abillities of the Rdm main job simply due to their caster origins and the nature of the Red Mage Main job.

All of them are better than any melee sub and give more benefits than any melee sub offers.

[Zania]

Well I ran a test on conserve mp myself a while back, I guess I'll add my findings to the list. The following is a direct copy paste of two of my posts concerning this matter for another board where it was originally posted.

>>
Well I read some arguments, some results people posted...and became rather curious about exactly how useful Conserve MP is. So I ran a series of tests.

Before posting actual test results however, I will post some assumptions made. First of all I assumed that Conserve MP does not depend on weather, daytime, day, moon cycle, and how many red mages make baby jesus cry by subbing melee job for parties at any given time.

Then I decided to test 2 things. First being how much conserve mp actually conserves, and second, whenever or not it depends on the magic skill used. All tests were run on a mithra lvl 60rdm/30blm. Skills were all at around 200, I will post more relevant info after the actual test results. I ran 100 samples per each available to me magic skill (note, divine excluded since as blm sub you get no divine spells). So *if* you assume that conserve mp doesnt depend on skill type or skill value, you can count this as a 500 sample experiment. Each data point was recorded in Excel spreadsheet, which I will post, if I find someone to host it, as well as if people will actually want to see it. So from here, we get:

Enhancing skill, (Test spell, Regen - 15mp) - 7.133% conserved.
Healing skill, (Test spell, Cure II - 24mp) - 8.625% conserved.
Dark skill, (Test spell, Bio - 22 mp) - 6.091% conserved.
Enfeebling skill, (Test spell, Dispel - 25 mp) - 9.800% conserved
Elemental skill, (Test spell, Blizzard - 30mp) - 7.967% conserved.

If you count them as being independent sets, average conservation was about 7.92% +/- 2%

However this test raised another question. As RDM, my enfeebling skill is A , and it netted me 9.8% savings. Dark skill is E and netted 6% savings. With only 100 samples per skill, and extreme streakness of the said skill (I was getting streaks up to 15 without single conserve going off), this doesnt say much because it could easily be explained by an unlucky (or lucky) streak. Still it shows what could be an interesting pattern. I doubt it depends by value itself, because in that case, at lower levels it would be completely useless (my skills range from over 170 dark to over 215 enfeebling), but it could indicate dependence on skill proficiency (A to E). I will run couple more tests using exclusively dark and enfeebling skills when I have some time and post results.

>>

Once again, however, this is only 500 data points, 100 per set.

Just did another fast calculation from the data I had (no new data, but will describe more of it). I counted the number of times the conserve mp skill went off.
Enhance - 24/100
Dark - 21/100
Enfeebling - 28/100
Elemental - 25/100
Healing - 28/100

That averages at 25.2% overall. Seems to me that the skill goes off once in every 4 casts on average, but has a large random component to how effective it is (lowest saved was 1mp, which ONLY occurred at 15mp regen [possible truncation issue], all other ones min conserved was 2mp, max was a bit over 50% saved). If any person who is good in stat wants to analyze this further, feel free to request the spreadsheet with original data.

>>

Zania

[Patchinko]

Those numbers are interesting. As a Taru, I don't have any problems with MP levels in the first place, so I won't comment on the effectiveness of MP conservation. I will say that even in the fastest PTs w/o a BLM, I've not slowed the party down by running out of MP.

I'd be interested to know if Gravity truly only reduces mob evasion by 5%. I notice a massive improvement with it, so much so that THFs and RNGs who've seen it in action request it be used much like they'd request Dispel. In addition, I notice myself hitting far more often after casting it, so much so that I actually build enough TP for a weapon skill in a single fight, which was unheard of previously.