I making this topic in response to the many arguments of Party correct vs "Gimped" subs. Accordingly im asking those who would like to perticapate in making suitable guide This fourms Job to post the PROS and CONS of EACH sub weither it be an appropiate sub or a non appropiate sub. Also please indcate which subs you would recommend for pting, perhaps in its own section in your post. If you would like to contribute more besides the job of this fourm please visit the other job fourms. after considerable information is recorded i will begin to make a guide for the site. Credit will go to the Users of FFXIO * taking down each name of a contributer would be tedius and in-effecient but i will work out an appropiate credting title*

The job guide would be added to ffxio database and added to the main page.

lol...no one has posted yet.

I know I'm not a red mage, yet, but I can post from what I've heard that works.

RDM/BLM - Pros: can be an effective nuker, along with gaining the -aga spells. And a boost in mp and int.
RDM/BLM - Cons: Like most mages, shyt defence.

RDM/WHM - Pros: back up healer, also probably (if not) the best enfeebler in the game. That and rdm get a boost in mind to help healing. Along with a nice mp boost (like blm sub)
RDM/WHM - Cons: see /blm sub

RDM/SUM - Pros: HUGE mp Pool. Along with getting Auto-Refresh.
RDM/SUM - Cons: Half level avatars. see /blm or /whm sub

RDM/Bard - Pros: I'm not really sure about this, but it seems like a really really busy enfeebler, debuffer, and back up healing. Also, unlike mage and summoner sub, they don't get shyt defence, it's ok, but still not good to get hit >_<
RDM/Bard - Cons: I'm not sure Apple Pie could probably answer this best, but. Probably the fact that duing the battle you will be doing so much, and if you aren't 100% paying attention, you could miss a turn.

(hope I did all right)

:)

~LF

RDM30/BLM15 - Clear mind (1 level earlier), Elemental Seal
RDM34/BLM17 - Warp
RDM40/BLM20 - MP conserve
RDM58/BLM29 - Escape

RDM30/WHM15 - Elemental Seal
RDM50/WHM25 - Auto-regen

RDM20/SMN10 - Max MP boost
RDM50/SMN25 - Auto-refresh

Time to offer my two cents on the issue, I'm a 40RDM/20BLM for all those wondering. The list of cons will be rather short. I don't think it is right to list the pros of another class as the cons of one, such as BLM isn't good because they don't get Curaga etc. I will only list negatives or misconseptions relating directely to the sub job.

-RDM/BLM: Pros

With the exception of summoner, blackmage gives the highest MP boost of the 3 mage classes. BLM also receive Elemental seal which is great for landing those enfeebles. You also receive two very nice spells, drain and aspir. Since RDM main job is Enfeebling I would reccomend BLM over WHM as best enfeebler because I consider choke/rasp/burn etc. enfeebles (even though they are technicaly elementals). Bottom line is that RDM is enfeeble pro and /BLM gives the most debuffs. BLM also gives Clear mind, increased MP gained when healing, Magic Atk bonuses, and Conserve MP, which randomly cuts down on spell MP cost. (I've heard that similar skills do acctually stack, such as 2 Magic ATK boosts, however they just aren't visible in the abilities window. When my RDM hit 40 I didn't see my second ATK bonus so I think that proves it)

-RDM/BLM: Cons

Many people will sub BLM thinking that it will make them a better damage dealer in terms of elementals, however the INT bonus received from /BLM isn't high enough to compensate for difference in RDM to BLM intelligence. I do about 3/4 to 4/5 the damage of the BLM in my pt's, but I also have all +INT gear. With my wand out I have +14 or so INT. Also you will notice that you don't have the II's or III's like blm's. In PT's BLM's cast Water II for burst, or Fire II, and I would cast Blizzard, they out burst me by atleast 100 pts of damage. (I know have water II, but I still don't do the same damage and its even more clear on bursts)

-RDM/BLM: Conclusion
As far as picking a traditional PT friendly support job, BLM is the route to go. Sub BLM will give you more Debuff spells, nice passives, and a decent amount of MP.
I give this a 4.5/5

--------------------------

-RDM/WHM: Pros
Subbing WHM is probably the most popular choice amoung RDM's. Many RDM play the role of backup healer, if not main healer, and what class to better help than WHM. WHM gives you a boost to your MND which effects healing potency, as well as access to AOE Cures ( Curaga) , AOE protections (Protectra, shell, bar-insertelmenthere), and status cures (Blindna, Viruna). The RDM/WHM is almost entirely supportave in that you really don't get any offensive bonuses in magic attack or passives. Auto Regen is nice I and can cut down on unneccissary cures after a convert. Divine Seal is probably the best thing about subbing WHM, You could phalanx/stoneskin/divine seal/ curaga and should probably last a little while for the others to build up hate.

-RDM/WHM: Cons
Contrary to what most people think RDM/WHM is not the best Sub if you want to be a healer. Your MND will only be a few points, maybe 3, higher than a /BLM. (this is around lvl 35ish). And even with mostly +INT gear on my RDM/BLM I am still able to heal for the full amounts for Cure I and Cure II. I have no problem playing main healer with only Cure II and Regen, so even if you don't heal full with Cure III it is not needed. More importantly you probably wouldn't heal the full amount with /WHM either. The MP you get from SMN or BLM will give you another Cure that makes up for _maybe_ not healing as much as the /WHM. Subbing WHM won't get you cure spells any faster, your RDM only gets them a few levels behind the WHM as is. The only spell that you will get in an offensive view is Banish, which you probably wouldn't use anyways, and I'm not even sure which enfeebles are WHM only if there even are such spells.

RDM/WHM: Conclusion
Support Class WHM gives a few "nice" adds and some nice bonus on paper, but in real game situations they aren't nearly as needed as some of the other subs. WHM doesn't give as much MP as a BLM or a SMN, and the extra MND isn't enough to make a big difference, you won't get any offensive benefits either. However you will get status cures which are very nice, and AOE buffs/cures which combined with the resistance of a RDM can be quite usefull
I give this a 4/5



Now it's time for a break, I'll right up my views on /SMN and a few other intresting ideas I have tomorow.

This fourms Job to post the PROS and CONS of EACH sub weither it be an appropiate sub or a non appropiate sub.

Your response....

WAR would be a good sj...right?

Why do you think that warrior would be a good suppor job? What do you feel are the pros and cons of chosing a warrior, then think about those pros/cons vs. the pros/cons of say... SJ WHM or SJ BLM.

The only practial reason I could see for subbing warrior would be for berserk, warcry, access to WAR/PLD/DRK only Weapon Skills (does this still work?). And the physical defense boost.

In regards to the title of this thread, I would say that /WAR is infact a gimped sub as far as building a somewhat optimized PT. While at low levels it might seem cool to tank with a rdm (with added provoke), you probably will have alot of trouble keeping the hate post lvl 20ish. You will simply take too much damage and put out too little to keep the mob focused on you.

Couple of things about blm sub vs whm sub

1). whm sub does provide a small bit more of MND, but once you hit 32 rdm/blm, you have access to Shock which lowers enemy MND. Usually you can't rely on your party's blm to cast Shock, ever(at least in my experience), and there's no guarentee that you'll even have a blm in the party, so it's nice to have your own Shock handy. Once you Shock the enemy, your enfeebles will be harder to resist, and they should be more consistantly effective(especially stuff like paralyze and silence).

In other words, the positive benefits of having more MND for enfeebling from whm sub are easily matched by being able to Shock the enemy.

2). whm sub provides divine seal which is on the same refresh timer as Convert. In other words . . .

Convert, Divine Seal, Cure III self

or IV if you like.

whm sub also provides Erase at level . . . 66 rdm/whm I think? Having Erase AND Dispel would be kinda cool. Maybe not all that useful, but kinda cool. You'd also get some of the teleport spells at very high level, but honestly, I'd rather have Warp and Escape.

All things considered, I'd rather have whm sub until level 32, at which point I'll be switching to blm sub. blm sub doesn't provide much other than +int and +mp until 30 or so, and I have two astral rings, so the +mp isn't much of an issue(the difference in mp boost between whm sub and blm sub is quite small for an elvaan such as myself, anyway).

I've yet to attain later levels, so I don't consider myself an authority yet. I will therefore stay within the bounds of my experience. However, I've an acquaintence who uses this combo at a very high level and have spoken with him about it many times. Therefore I dip into my own first-hand and second-hand experience from him. Please excuse me if you feel I am misinformed. :)

RDM/NIN

The disadvantages of RDM/NIN are clear. In comparison to a /SMN, /WHM, or /BLM, the boosts to mage stats will be minimal. In addition, you'll be missing the spells that are available to these jobs.

Compared to the /WHM sub, the most noticeable things missing here are -na spells and -ra spells. Therefore, if your PT is planning to use you as a WHM replacement, you may want to consider another PT. As a RDM/NIN, you are not there to replace a WHM, though your function as backup healer and enhancer is still in place.

In special place here, BCNM is going to require a specific combo, so keeping your /WHM leveled to half the BCNM level at least, regardless of your normal combo, is worth it.

As for the /BLM sub, the more noticeable problems come in the lack of stat bonuses. You'll not be getting the high MP and INT that the BLM would deliver. Another consideration is that you will not get warp, escape, aspir or drain, all of which can be quite usefully applied.

Finally, the /SMN offers a number of advantages at higher levels. The MP boost is incredible and both INT and MND are boosted a great deal. This is in addition to being able to use the party enhancers of your avatars once you get RDM50/SMN25, which are a great addition to any PT.

So why do /NIN in the face of all these disadvantages?

The first reason is that, like any less than ideal race/job combo, the disadvantages inherent in RDM/NIN are counterable with good items. There are very powerful wands and even swords that will help to boost these stats, in addition to jewelry and conquest/rare gear.

The benefits of the RDM/NIN are quite unorthodox. The most obvious is dual weild. Being able to equip both a high DMG sword and a stat-boosting wand is not something to underestimate. You can stay in melee mode, contributing damage at a low but not shameful rate, while still casting efficiently. In addition, En- spells are often scoffed at, but shouldn't be, especially when used in conjunction with dual weild. With the /NIN, you will hit more often and harder with each swing and get two swings for every one without dual weild.

As an example from my recent playing, a swing from my sword hitting for 20DMG, my wand for 10DMG and two enchantments giving 8DMG each adds up to a total of 46DMG in one round. That's not matching huge, but it's not something to be scoffed at either.

That said, the advantages of /NIN in regards to melee improvements are hardly a good enough reason to use it in place of a mage sub.

However, the elemental enfeebling Ninjutsu granted by /NIN are incredible. If you don't PT with a NIN, or if your NIN doesn't usually bring 5 stacks of dust specifically for the purpose of elemental enfeebling (I've only seen one NIN who did so other than me, though it supposedly becomes more common in later levels for keeping hate, but that's for a NIN discussion :)), you will be responsible for this. Used properly, the boosts to your elemental spells and magic bursts will be amazing. You can literally double the power of your elemental spells, taking proper advantage of inherent elemental weakness and emphasizing it with the proper Ninjutsu. Anyone using Black Magic in your PT will be able to take advantage of these enfeeblements as well, so the damage of your PT will increase noticeably if you have yourself and another nuker. If you keep your Ninjutsu fully leveled, the power gained by it makes up for the disadvantages of the job.

That said, have a good set of macros for whichever Ninjutsu and Elemental spells you'll be using ready every time you go hunting.

And that brings up the most important thing about the /NIN sub. It is not for the lazy or poor. It will cost you a great deal of money, it will take up a fair amount of you inventory, and it will require you to keep the sub fully leveled. In addition, you'll want to keep your Ninjutsu, Sword and any other weapon you'll be using fully leveled. If you're not interested in keeping your skills up to date, spending a lot of money, and filling your inventory with Ninja Tools, forget it.

By now, I'm sure you're thinking, "Why would anyone ever sub something that has so many drawbacks and is so hard to take advantage of?" There are a number of reasons besides those listed above, novelty not withstanding, that I'm not going to go through in depth. For soloing, RDM/NIN is second to none. People who've seen you in action, hitting every magic burst in a 3 part renkei, the first with an elemental enfeeblement Ninjutsu and the second for more than a lone BLM could ever hope to hit for, will remember you, and word will spread. Yes, it takes attention, effort, and dedication to make this combo work well, but you'll be rewarded with a fun, unique and effective combo.

I hope I don't sound like too much of a RDM/NIN fanboy. I don't say that it's a better sub than /BLM, /WHM, or even /SMN, but it's definately worthy of mention with them. I have received some random people asking me if I didn't have another sub to use, and had to ask them to trust me, but they have all been pleasantly surprised.

/clap Patchinko ^^ Nice post.

Since beginning of my RDM career, i've been goin as RDM/blm, but, after much boredom and freetime, I decided to do the NIN quest and get it to dual wield, and subbed it to RDM for the hell of it. And MAN... it was nice.

Fighting Crawlers in the Nest at lvl 37....

Start battle with 2 solid clubs equipped, and I'd lay down my whole line of debuffs(which stick SOoo much longer than with the +10 INT and MND from the clubs), then I'd press my handy macro to whip out my Dual Centurion Swords and EnBlizzard myself.

Next, lower mob's resistance to blizzard(which both I and the BLM in the PT Benefitted from with the Power Slash-> Viper Bite skillchain with dual MBs), and Started whackin.

I was doing considerable Damage. Not amazing, but I out damaged the THF per hit(of COURSE excluding that once a minute Jaw Dropper..), and looked DAMN sweet while doing it.

I feel RDM/nin is a viable combo, but throughout the PT, I casted VERY VERY few cures, to compliment the limited MP pool from sub (Hume RDM/nin, lvl 37), but it was OK, we had a great white mage. RDM/nin can be an effective combo if you don't expect to be the backup healer. A PT with a PLD, WHM, and BRD/whm can EASILY handle the healing roles in the PT, and you can be pure offensive RDM(which I love).

And since I have a BRD in my static PT, Sword Madrigal and Ballad are my songs of choice, so I hit almost every time(besides, I have +9 accuracy with dual Ctr. Swords and Battle gloves), so i don't feel very Inadequate.

To make a long story short, in my 1 night of RDM/nin-ness, I loved it, and may choose to pursue it. Don't let anyone get ya down... even when you /sea all RDM, all you see are mage subs, it MIGHT NOT BE THE ONLY OPTION!!! :thumbsup:

Well, I might mention that my opinion is molded by being a Taru. Our MP pulls away from the rest of the pack throughout the 30s, so perhaps it would take some adjustments in play style for another race. Like I said, items can always make up for these issues. However, I would be hard pressed to recommend the combo to a Galka or even Elvaan without a couple of Astral Rings equipped at least, if not a Silver/Electrum/Gold hairpin. One nice feature is that Ninjutsu doesn't use up MP at least, so you don't have to worry about that.

And you bring up a good point that I didn't mention, but perhaps should have. Being able to equip dual wands and switch to dual swords is incredibly powerful. I personally use a wand/sword pair the whole time because I've yet to do gobbiebags, and therefore would have almost no inventory space for pies or crystals if I had two extra weapons with me along with all my Ninja Tools.

I still act as backup healer without difficulty, but having a set PT with a blink tank and a WHM makes it relatively unnecessary (Refresh/Regen, but very little curing).

[For reference, my current lvl41 set-up is two Electrum Rings, Electrum Hairpin, Ryl. Sqr. Robe, New Moon Armlets, Fencing Degen, Eremite's Wand, Shaman Belt, etc... so I'm definately making up for lacking MP, MND and INT with items. However, I'd probably wear the same were I /WHM or /BLM, so in reality, magic power is still reduced.]

To add to my last post about pros of RDM/nin, I thought of a new, verrrry useful one.

Though I myself have not reached 40, I understand that Convert creates a LARGE amount of hate, especially since you have very low HP and make a nice bullseye for the mob to take you out in 1 hit or AoE. Therefore, some people say, "Sub WHM for divine Seal + CureIII (in noobish voice)" Let's see, what would this do? Add much much much MORE hate onto what you already have, and give the PLD a hell of a time to get it off of you.

So... how do you counter this?

Simple, my good Watson! With /nin, in a pinch midbattle. Use Utsusemi(sp?) and convert. from there, you can cure III yourself or let the WHM do his/her thing and get you up to a nice HP #. This is more effective and efficient imo(all speculation, mind you), because from advise i've read on these forums from the Great Jei explained that the best way to do a mid-fight convert is to tell mages, run away from battle, convert and cure yourself, and THEN re-enter... wasting a good bit of time. /NIN can help with the Ninjutsu, and it's only 1-2(depending on situation) per convert fight. Now... remember that I'm still lvl 38 and not experienced with convert, but.... my theory sounds good, neh?

However, to all of my defense against /nin.... I myself am not going to burden myself or the PT with attempting to accomplish this task... It's just too much money to keep up with. I am currently on R&R from xping because I feel bad going into a PT with lower than optimal equipment and spell book, and I'm waiting for a friend to catch up to my level... but anywho... With Refresh coming up soon, and my humeness, non taruness(grumble) I anticipate the value of MP conserving Refresh... it will heavily outweigh what /nin can offer in a PT situation. To afford the elemental ninjutsu every battle and Utsusemi whenever needed is just a strain on mah pocketbook(waves angry fist at dispel). But for soloing for experience(as opposed to simply farming), i'm certainly going to sub NIN. But overall, for OPTIMUM performance in PTs, I recommend /blm. :thumbsup:

Question. Isn't ninjitsu a ninja only skill and therefore you would only have lvl20ish ninjitsu power as compared to if it was your main at 40? Does this effect the potency and or ability to stick the enfeebles? Also Dual weild doesn't really increase the ammount of attacks you get per turn until you get the 4 or 5 speed increases for dual weild, at lvl 20 I think ninja has only 1 (the ability itself which doesn't make you attack faster) I'm not sure if lvl 20 gives you an increased speed one. The main point of rdm using nin sub would be for items like crimson blade: 5 int, 10 mp, decent damage. Ninja is def. a cool sub job and can be fun but it still comes down to not being the best choice. Its ok to use it as long as you don't mind people criticizing you, you have to understand that by choosing nin you choose your own wants over the party's needs.

On the topic of RDM doing meele damage, i'm all for it. I think rdm meeleing is fine as long as you are not fighting things with aoe damage like goblins. When you are fighting these mobs you have a good chance of dieing or getting low on health and 500 hp to heal is a decent chunk of mp wasted. I meele against things like crawlers and flys because the fly's aoe is pretty weak and whm normally curagas afterwards, but when it comes to high aoe damage I stay away for time's sake.

If you do want a meele job though, I suggest RDM/DRK. /DRK will give you intelligence, str and mp benefits, along with enhanced attack power traits. You will also get access to drain/aspir at an earlier level. This in my opinion is the best sub job for rdm if you plan to go the meele route.

And finally my idea that I'm not sure if it will work. What about RDM/BRD for those boring refreshbot levels. Since RDM is basically a refresher in the lvl 41-50 area why not sub BRD and toss out accuracy bonus to the meeles while you are at it? I think ballad is at lvl 25 so at 50 you could give that to yourself and the mages to add with refresh. While it won't add a whole lot, considering that rdm are only wanted for refresh at this level, /blm /whm will only help you in terms of MP and if refreshing is all you do, mp isnt an issue so why not try /brd.

You don't melee at high lvls. Very hard to hit the mobs, total waste of time. Rdm/Nin great when you wanna solo some NM's and stuff, but sucky for partys.

I think there isn't one SJ dedicated to RDM because the class is very versatile.
When you have a job dedicated to a very specific task like PLD you dont have much choice (in this case WAR SJ)

I agree with what has been said before and there is not much to add from that point of view.

In the end it will just depends on your PT configuration.
I remember doing groups with 2 RDM and no WHM, thus in this case, subbing WHM could be a good idea for the status cure and the divine seal (Convert + Divine Seal + Cure 4 is great).
On the other hand you could end with no BLM (but a WHM in this case). This time the elemental debuffs will be needed (shock and frost makes a big difference for melee) while elemental seal can save you, being able to quickly sleep an add, or be a great addition when MB to be sure not to get resisted.

Some more factors are to be taken into account like how lazy are you (warp / escape from BLM), what kind of monsters are you fighting (nothing worse than a silenced WHM or a poisoned party with WHM out of MP) and so on.

Considering I am in a set PT with BLM and WHM (so my job is Slow / Para / Gravity / Refresh 4 people) I am thinking about trying NIN subbed (so I can dual wield those +5 INT/MND wands while testing my elemental nukes after using debuffs) or on the other hand trying SMN subbed (to get a most efficient Convert due to the higher max MP and an interesting auto-refresh since I rarely heal because I need to keep 4 people refreshed).
Though in the end I think BLM is usually the most interesting, then comes WHM.

you should try bard as subjob, since you have blm and whm in your set pt. Extra 1 mp regen for all is better than subbing summoner and getting the 1mp for yourself. You should also haste all the melee since the whm should be able to handle all the heals. But bad thing about subbing ninja is you have less mp, and you don't get mp conservation. Dual wielding an extra club isn't really helpful imho. You also don't get mp conservation with bard sub, but the extra 1mp from ballad does help.
All depends on what you fight really. If you kill stuff with mp use blm sub so you can aspir. Since all you do is cast 4 refresh and debuffs, you feel you have alot of wasted unused mp. So perhaps nuke or haste the melee and you'll go oom soon enough.

There's way too much rdm/nin promotion going on here.

Dual-wielding does not make you hit much more often. The best delay you're going to get, as listed here:

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38872

by Divine Spirit

is LVL 25 = (1st weapon delay + 2nd weapon delay) * 0.85

Nothing too impressive, especially considering the fact that rdm/nin will be whiffing most of the time against ITs anyway(just like the rest of us. Sorry, bud). EN-magic isn't going to be much more powerful in your hands because you won't be hitting that much more often. You can pile on haste gear with /equip macros, but ehh, then you're compromising yourself by taking away slots that could go for +acc gear instead(in your meleeset).

Dual-wielding, so far as I know, does not make you hit harder.

Dual-wielding a sword and a wand at the same time is a bad idea because you're only watering down your damage output with the sword to hold a wand for stat bonuses. Every time you swing, one of those hits(the wand) will likely be 0 damage, or close to it. A rdm single-wielding a sword or wand can easily swap between the two to cast spells while meleeing. Swap in wand, cast spell, swap in sword/dagger/whatever, resume attacking.

Dual-wielding two wands ain't all that great either. Keep in mind that a rdm/<insertmagejobhere> will likely be using one wand at least some of the time, if not all of the time. You're only gaining the advantage of one more wand, which will only barely offset the stat boost you'd otherwise get from a mage sub(and does nothing to offset the mp bonus and spells/job abilities you're missing). And, there are some fairly interesting shields out there that rdm can use which you will not get while dual-wielding wands.

Rdm/nin will use ninjitsu at a lower level of effectiveness than would a nin/*. Even nin mains don't do much damage or inflict much elemental vulnerability upon targets with attack ninjitsu. You won't double the effectiveness of elemental attack spells. I've had ninja mains use attack ninjitsu for my benefit as a blm and a rdm, and I noticed very little difference. If you want to improve the performance of your nukes, use the /blm sub and cast Burn. Burn rules.

I severely doubt that some rdm/nin will MB for more damage than a stand-alone blm could hope to do, given the fact that a blm of the same level will almost always have available offensive spells one order of magnitude higher than what a rdm would have. They also have more int AND more elemental skill.

Originally posted by DrMrLordX
There's way too much rdm/nin promotion going on here.

Dual-wielding does not make you hit much more often. The best delay you're going to get, as listed here:

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38872

by Divine Spirit

is LVL 25 = (1st weapon delay + 2nd weapon delay) * 0.85

Nothing too impressive, especially considering the fact that rdm/nin will be whiffing most of the time against ITs anyway(just like the rest of us. Sorry, bud). EN-magic isn't going to be much more powerful in your hands because you won't be hitting that much more often. You can pile on haste gear with /equip macros, but ehh, then you're compromising yourself by taking away slots that could go for +acc gear instead(in your meleeset).

Dual-wielding, so far as I know, does not make you hit harder.

Dual-wielding a sword and a wand at the same time is a bad idea because you're only watering down your damage output with the sword to hold a wand for stat bonuses. Every time you swing, one of those hits(the wand) will likely be 0 damage, or close to it. A rdm single-wielding a sword or wand can easily swap between the two to cast spells while meleeing. Swap in wand, cast spell, swap in sword/dagger/whatever, resume attacking.

Dual-wielding two wands ain't all that great either. Keep in mind that a rdm/<insertmagejobhere> will likely be using one wand at least some of the time, if not all of the time. You're only gaining the advantage of one more wand, which will only barely offset the stat boost you'd otherwise get from a mage sub(and does nothing to offset the mp bonus and spells/job abilities you're missing). And, there are some fairly interesting shields out there that rdm can use which you will not get while dual-wielding wands.

Rdm/nin will use ninjitsu at a lower level of effectiveness than would a nin/*. Even nin mains don't do much damage or inflict much elemental vulnerability upon targets with attack ninjitsu. You won't double the effectiveness of elemental attack spells. I've had ninja mains use attack ninjitsu for my benefit as a blm and a rdm, and I noticed very little difference. If you want to improve the performance of your nukes, use the /blm sub and cast Burn. Burn rules.

I severely doubt that some rdm/nin will MB for more damage than a stand-alone blm could hope to do, given the fact that a blm of the same level will almost always have available offensive spells one order of magnitude higher than what a rdm would have. They also have more int AND more elemental skill.

I agree. Sure a +1 wand is going to increase some stats, but it still doesn't make up for lost for what /blm or /whm bring to the job. (Or even /summoner.)

I actually plan on doing rdm/nin for soloing. It helps increase your sword skill while waiting for a pt at higher levels. (Even though I'm not there yet.)

That and it might be fun at 75 dual wielding Excalibur. (vicious)

As I said in my first post about RDM/NIN, I was speaking from my experience up to that point, which I believe was the late 30s. I have since gained quite a bit of experience. Soon after making my last post pointing out the benefits of RDM/NIN up to that point in my gaming experience, I came to realize something that many have said from the start:

RDM/NIN loses all efficacy in a normal party.

I stuck with RDM/NIN for too long. It was all too apparent that it became an ineffective sub by the early 40s. Therefore, I switched to RDM/BLM, which is a much more effective sub throughout the entire game.

While I stand by my statement that RDM/NIN can be effective in earlier levels, after the mid-30s, it's reasonless. The ninjutsu that was at one point boosting bursts is greatly outweighed by the boosts you'd get from a BLM sub in INT, MP and Mgc. Atk. Bonus by the mid-30s and prior to that BLM, at least, would still be a more effective sub.

One would be better off starting out with RDM/BLM or RDM/WHM and later on leveling NIN sub for higher level soloing.

The desire to be unique can only outweigh the desire to be maximally effective for so long. You can learn it the long way as I did, or you can just start off doing it most effectively.

I was careful in my first post to make it clear that RDM/NIN isn't as effective a sub as BLM, WHM or even SMN, but simply an alternative. However, after reaching later levels, I can say with no doubt that in a party situation, it really stops being an effective option after the late 30s. Therefore, I wouldn't recommend it as a subjob to anyone thinking of using it in a PT setting anymore, since he or she would simply have to stop using it eventually and switch to BLM or WHM anyhow (or have an ineffective sub).

If you want to be the best RDM, I think BLM sub is the way to go now, having used NIN, WHM and BLM. WHM is always a good backup if a PT has no main healer besides yourself and NIN is good for late-level soloing, but for overall maximum effectiveness in a PT, it seems like BLM has the most benefits to me.

Sorry if my earlier statements convinced anyone to go 75 levels using RDM/NIN (...yeah, right! ^-^)!

I thought I would give some insight here as to the world of the RDM/WAR, as no one else had said anything about it.

CONS:

Social/General: RDM/WAR is generally frowned upon as a really poor class combination excluding solo. You can expect to have a more difficult time finding parties. This class combination demands your subjob be levelled, as it is necessary to gather every scrap of power you can to make this work. This class combo demands a lot of equipment, a lot of money, and a lot of attention.

Stats: You're going to miss out on a lot of MP. You're going to lose some MND and some INT as well. You will have to make up for this with rings, wands, necklaces, and cloaks. This means learning and utilizing equipment change macros for almost everything you do.

Abilities: You're trading off a lot of backline and support ability for frontline ability that is very much self-only. You will lose elemental debuffs, -ga or -na spells, seals, and the job traits inherent in a mage sub.

Pros:

Social/General: You can solo. Not only can you solo, but you can do it damn well. You'll be able to solo T-VT all the way to your thirties. You can tank. You can even do it just as well as normal tanks all the way until 30. I tanked for quite a few parties in Valkum, Qufim and Kazham and never missed a beat. You can function as a watered down paladin, with better hate control all the way until Flash hits the scenes.

Stats: As a Hume RDM/WAR my stats varied from each other by less than 3-4 through every level. You are the epitome of balance. You do nothing excellent, you do nothing poorly. You can fill any role that comes in demand, as long as your equipment is ready to ADJUST to it.

Abilities: You get voke. And more defense. This can be very hard to work with compared to the other abilities you could have. But if you want to be a RDM/WAR you have to realize it isn't a game of stats or abilities, it is a playstyle.

FAQ I get about RDM/WAR ingame

Does RDM/WAR solo well? Yes. I'd argue it solos better than any job other than BST.

Do you have that much trouble getting a PT? No. RDMs are that much in demand. People will give you funny looks, but put up a good search comment.

Can RDM/WAR really tank? Yes, up until about 30, at which point you start fighting mobs with a lot more double attack, and a lot more damage. I would predict that RDM/WAR loses almost all tanking ability in a PT until level 50 when defender can be used.

Does RDM/WAR do lots of damage? No. No. And for the last time, no. You want big damage and casting, go DRK! RDM/WAR functions in a way that wears monsters down. Yes you can solo Ts and VTs pretty easy, but it takes minutes and minutes to do so.

Does RDM/WAR farm well? Yes. But only after you get Refresh and Convert to eliminate downtime.

You CAN TANK, you can NOT do lots of damage. That about sums it up.

RDM/WAR wouldn't make a good tank at 50 or beyond either because he's so low damage that keeping hate away from heavy hitting RNG, MNK or DRK is going to be impossible.

I don't know why you guys are putting down the Duel Weild. aybe I am missing something.. as far as I can see, it DOES make you hit faster.

If you use with 1 weapon with 200 delay, to hit 4 times you need 800 delay time (8 seconds?).

If you use 2 weapons with 200 delay with the Duel Weild equation, to hit 2 times you need:

(200 * 2) * 0.85 (for Duel Weild 2) = 340 delay time.
To hit 4 times, you will have 680 delay time (6.8 seconds?)
If we say a battle takes 1 minute to finish:
Single Weild you get 7.5 attacks.
Duel Weild you get 8.8 attacks.

__________________________________

Let me take this a bit further:


Delay Duel Wield #2 = 0.85 * (Weapon #1 Delay + Weapon #2 Delay) /2 hits
Delay Duel Wield #4 = 0.70 * (Weapon #1 Delay + Weapon #2 Delay) /2 hits


Weapon Name: DMG: Delay: (Delay/DMG): (DMG/Delay)

Ascention (Synth): 79 : 480: (6.08) : (0.165)

Epee (Sword): 35 : 221: (6.31) : (0.158)
Epee (DW #2): 35 : 188: (5.37) : (0.186)
Epee (DW #4): 35 : 154: (4.40) : (0.230)

Fudo (Katana): 37 : 232: (6.20) : (0.160)
Fudo (DW #4): 37 : 162: (4.39) : (0.228)


For a Ninja:
So basicaly, if you are using Fudo (Katana) with DW #4, you are basicaly doing the same damage of a Synth (with 480 delay) that has a damage of 109+ (compared to 79 real Synth damage).

That is +30 weapon damage compared to a powerful Synth!!


For a /NIN:
If you are using a Epee (sword) with DW #2, you are basicaly doing the same damage of a Synth (with 480 delay) that has a damage of 89+ (compared to 79 real Synth damage).

That is +10 weapon damage compared to a powerful Synth!!



Did I miss something that you guys know? Is my logic flawed somehow? Please tell me...

Note:

I am calculating based on the DMG and Delay of weapons ONLY, not STR and Att etc. +30 (for Nin) and +10 (for /Nin) are the additions to the weapon DMG not the actual damage done. Just thought I would clarify that.

I am 52 RDM/BLM currently. I wanna give RDM/NIN a try - my goal is 55RDM/NIN with dual Wize Wizard Anelaces. ^^

Your calculations seem pretty good modnar - however they are missing the critically important difference in stats between a mage class and a warrior class.

The worst part about subbing NIN is of course your mage stats are not as strong. Its that tradeoff that parties hate. Yeah I've heard of really specific set PTs where the RDM/NIN tanks while the thf tricks hate onto him, but realistically I think the only party-valid nin-sub combo is WAR/NIN. All things equal a RDM/NIN would hit like a girl compared to a WAR/NIN with the same weapons and same equipment.

I'm actually trying to switch my part-sub to SMN. Yeah you lose out on fun stuff like elemental seal and divine seal and my precious warp spell...

But Garuda -> Party Blink would kick ass. Everyone gets 3 shadows(!).

a rdm/nin would be very good for soloeing but in a party a blm or whm sub would be better

Whoah! This post! I remember this post!

How come nobody has said anything about my Duel Weild argument above?

Any comments?

Edit: just read that comment above. Yeah I know about mage vs melee classes. But I was just saying that ppl are putting down an awesome attribute (Duel Weild), so I put forward that argument.

Actual melee damage is calculated by

(D + fSTR) * (ATK / DEF multiplier = 0 ~ 2.4)

fSTR: WR + 0 ~ WR + 8
WR: int (D / 9)

Suppose we have two weapons, Weapon A (D20/Delay200) and Weapon B (D40/Delay400). Many people misunderstand A and B have the same performance but that's not true. B is always better because of its higher WR.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say by comparing Ascention and Epee. Are you saying RDM does better than BST does?

No no. Nothing about RDM and BST.

I was just taking 2 weapons for comparison. I wanted to illustrate that Duel Wield can make 2 one-handers give more output than 1 two-hander. At the time (and even now), I am not concentrating on what those weapons actualy are or anything like that. I just took some realy powerful weapons (I think I choose the strongest in thier category at the time with decent delay) to help illustrate the point.

I do not know what WR is or what it stands for. If you explain it I might be able to post a better reply. Its been a while but I am not sure what "WR: int (D/9)" means. However I do understand that you are trying to point out that the fSTR is effected by the weapons Damage listed on the weapon since this WR is part of it.

My argument is based on Damage/Delay ratio where I keep the Damage constant and change the Delay. I do not put into consideration any WR. This is how I am trying to show the Duel Weild is a powerful asset because it decreases delay and can bring the damage output to the same area (or surpass it) of a 2 handed weapon since we are dealing with DOT (damage over time).

So the whole thing is realy simplified.

Now, with the added variable of this "WR" you bring in, it would be interesting to see which of the the weapons I argue about gives out a higher DOT. Is the WR difference enough to offset the decrease in delay Duel Wielding brings to the table?

In l33t terms:
You give a Ninja 2 weapons with D20/200delay and a Dark Knight with D40/400delay.

Who does more damage over time if all variables (ATT, STR) except weapons are the same, Ninja or Dark Knight? Does the Duel Weild delay give more DOT than the WR variable?

Who does more damage over time if all variables (ATT, STR) except weapons are the same, Ninja or Dark Knight?
If we ignore these variables and exclude their weapon skills, it is obvious that Ninjya does more damage. However, it's not a fair comparison and it doesn't mean NIN/WAR outperforms DRK/WAR in the real world.

I wanted to illustrate that Duel Wield can make 2 one-handers give more output than 1 two-hander.
I'm just wondering why you're doing this here on our RDM forum.

EH?! I AM A RED MAGE!!! Where else would I be?

Way to make me feel welcome as a Red Mage Apple Pie... /cry

Oh wait. Why I am doing this in the RDM forum. oh. not "what are you doing in the Red Mage forum!"

He heh e... I guess my insecurity about my newbness in the Mage domain showed itself... :P


Well, at the time I was only reading and was replying to comments as as those done by DrMrLordX

Originally posted by DrMrLordX
There's way too much rdm/nin promotion going on here.

Dual-wielding does not make you hit much more often.
...
is LVL 25 = (1st weapon delay + 2nd weapon delay) * 0.85

Nothing too impressive, especially considering the fact that rdm/nin will be whiffing most of the time against ITs anyway(just like the rest of us. Sorry, bud). EN-magic isn't going to be much more powerful in your hands because you won't be hitting that much more often. You can pile on haste gear with /equip macros, but ehh, then you're compromising yourself by taking away slots that could go for +acc gear instead(in your meleeset).
...
Dual-wielding, so far as I know, does not make you hit harder.




etc, etc.
I just wanted to present an argument defending Duel Weild. I saw some people dismiss it too harshly, so I thought I might just shed some light on it. I remember at the time I was thinking.. "This should go to the Ninja Forum!". But then I had to leave and I never got back to it. I did not even read a reply to my message until a few days ago. :p

Well, I partially agree with DrMrLordX. The fact that we're only able to have DW2 isn't as impressive as the fact that we get Attack Bonus I, Berserk, DA, Warcry and Vorpal Blade with WAR sub.

I think the advantage of DW is,

1) 1 more hit is added to multi-hit WS
2) Stats bonuses of both weapons are added and applied to each weapon except for +5 En- spell damage of Enhancing Sword

Until we have access to Suppanomimi (-5%) at LV72, it doesn't enhance our melee ability a lot.

Of course, Utsusemi is super. The biggest reason I choose NIN sub is because I want Utsusemi I and II. RDM/NIN is something like NIN + SMN in that we have Phalanx and Stoneskin to back it up. We have Haste, too. No one can take well-equipped RDM/NIN down easily in Ballista.

Guys, any information on a DRK subjob? Its pros and cons? It would be useful information on this thread.

there seem to be a lot of misconceptions about rdm in this post, at least about higher lvl rdm's.

1. convert creating large ammounts of hate - i've never once seem convert draw agro. dont think i've ever seen convert +divine seal + cure IV draw agro.

2. /nin debuffing - its incredibly hard lvl ninjitsu, at least for lower lvl nin's. so your nin sub probably wont even have his ninjitsu capped. even if it is capped, its capped for half your rdm's level. this means your debuffs are probably going to get resisted at a decent level.

3. rdm's meleeing in exp mobs - definitely no melee'ing against mobs with AoE's. your weapon probably won't be capped unless you've lvl'd it with another job or done a lot of skilling up. so you will miss constantly. when you do hit, you're going to do almost no damage. think pld's swing for no damage? we have higher str and attack than rdm's and our weapon is always capped, so...yea... after about 20 fights an rdm would get enough TP for spirits within which honestly always does lots of damage at max TP/HP, but hardly worth it.

4. damage/delay calculations - 20damage/200 delay does not equal 40damage/400 delay. for one thing the 40 damage will hit more than twice as hard even if str and attack is the same. also 400 delay isnt double 200 delay. there is a base delay to be added in. an easy example of base delay is an mnk with 0 delay fists. basically what i'm saying is 40damage/400 delay does more than 20damage/200delay duel wielded. even with dual wield II, same attack/acc/str the 40 damage/400 delay will still do more.

5. rdm's well rounded - solo'ing, yes rdm's are very well rounded. exp'ing there is nothing completely well rounded. closest thing to well rounded in an exp party is war/nin which can DD or tank. an rdm in an exp party is the debuffer/buffer. rdm's cast dispel and refresh mostly. they also can main heal or back up heal depending on the party set up and cast enfeebling. keep in mind when you level. red MAGE is a mage.

i fell rdm/nin is the best choice for solo'ing. my closest friends are a whm and blm, so when i play with them i would probably use rdm/war so i can keep hate. in parties rdm/whm and rdm/blm i feel are the best choices. smn is ok, but you dont need auto-refresh and rdm's dont have any real problems with mp.

as for drk sub job.

pro's: attack bonus (whoopee), aspir (could get it from blm)

con's: no use for last resort or soul eater solo or in party. very little-to mp/hp bonus. basically doesnt help you in anyway.

oh yea, i've been wondering if anyone has tried rdm/brd in an exp party. refresh and ballad would be really sweet and since most of the mp you use at higher lvl's is from mp regen spells (ex: my pld usually goes a whole chain without resting) anyway, i figured the mp hit from subbing a job with no mp would be made up for with ballad. not that rdm's usually rest anyway.

Just a reply on the Rdm/Drk...

I've leveld as Rdm/Drk from 30 - 49 and its a pretty fun combo, as long as you do your job as a rdm so far i've had no complaints from any Party that i get to join and I dont have much trouble with getting invites as well, even have some invites for statics. @lvl 49rdm/drk i can sometimes do over 200+ WS damage on IT++ mobs on exp party's if around 200 TP. Also you can switch to strength+ gear before doing WS, then change back to mana gear after.

But as the higher the level gets i've noticed that it becomes more effective to just use magic (either offensive/support) against IT mobs on exp parties, so that makes you realize that it would be more effective to sub a mage job also. But better sub doesnt always equate to a better player...

74 Rdm/Drk Chainspell + Stun/Drain/Aspir is cool.

RDM/DRK is a very popular for Dynamis, HNM, and on Fenrir PTs. As sYdeFekt stated, Chainspell+Stun is very useful. My Dynamis LS is asking all RDM to sub DRK for Dynamis Xarcabard.

I have BLM43, WHM42, and SMN41. Now I have to level my DRK18. Also, my LS is asking me to bring my Nin12 up to 37 as well. Besides the time it takes to level these jobs, I also need to raise WAR10 so that DRK won't be gimped. To be proper DRK and NIN, I need to invest in equipments and weapon skills as well. I'm enjoying being a melee and tank but the time required is...

Is Beastmaster a good and/or decent sub job?

I hear it is a good solo sub. Lower lvl'ed bst makes charms a little harder, but maybe not as hard as you might think (80-90% success on DC's I've heard). Plus rdm is alltogether better at taking hits than a bst main bc of defensive buffs when you need to charm/recharm your pet. Hume natural charisma ftw.

/BST can work on any main as long as you keep it as high as the main job. You'll be forced to keep your pet though until the very high levels. That, or kill it against something that's stronger.

Suppose we have two weapons, Weapon A (D20/Delay200) and Weapon B (D40/Delay400). Many people misunderstand A and B have the same performance but that's not true. B is always better because of its higher WR.
fSTR is a function. How much fSTR you gain depends on the DMG of the weapon. I don't know the exact specifics but it most likely is a balancing factor.

4. damage/delay calculations - 20damage/200 delay does not equal 40damage/400 delay. for one thing the 40 damage will hit more than twice as hard even if str and attack is the same. also 400 delay isnt double 200 delay. there is a base delay to be added in. an easy example of base delay is an mnk with 0 delay fists. basically what i'm saying is 40damage/400 delay does more than 20damage/200delay duel wielded. even with dual wield II, same attack/acc/str the 40 damage/400 delay will still do more.
Quite on the contrary. There is no base delay. This only applies to MNKs, as their weapons are basically enhancements for their fists. If you notice, MNK weapons give Delay+, and don't have a fixed Delay like other weapons.

And Dual Weild is nothing but 1) One more hit in your WS; 2) A speed enhancement; 3) Off-hand weapon bonuses. It doesn't do anything for your TP, and for every time you cast Utsusemi you're already neglecting the speed bonus. The value of NIN sub comes mostly from the safety of Utsusemi, and the value of Dual Weild is pretty much proportional to how good the bonuses on your off-hand weapon are in my opinion. It better be good if you're giving up your shield for it.

For an in-depth analysis of Dual Weild go here: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52568 It's argued from a WAR perspective, but the basic principles still apply to RDM with swords.

I am redmage of long standing and have tride many subs. When I first tride RDM I thought to have WHM or BLM as my sub but I found these to be more of a disadvantage to those who like to solo. The combination I've found that I like is Redmage/Ranger.

Pros Jack-of-all-trades in magic, Elemental ranged attacks, Melee fighter.

Cons Can't use heavy armor or weapons, Can't use guns or crossbows,
Can't use highest level WHM/BLM magic.

Basically I am a Jack-Of-All-Trades not a specialist this works well for me because I mainly solo but I think that this combination could work in a party as well.

Hmm, not sure what to say to that other than, good luck.

RDM/RNG is fine for solo, well. . . . not really, but RDM/mage is the way to go in lower level parties.

RDMs strength is not that we can use higher lvl Black or White magics. Leave that to the Black and White mages. RDM strength is that we are versatile and need skills to augment our natural abilities. RNG adds nothing to RDM from a party perspective, and it's marginal from even a solo perspective.

RDM solo is about longevity. With a D in accuracy, soloing, especially after the distance adjustment, is damned near impossible if you want to depend on arrows. Quite honestly, you'd be better off with a BLM sub so that you can drain and aspir, or even Warp/Escape if things look bad.

For soloing, there are a bunch of subs, and recently, PLD came to the forefront. NIN is still good for surviveability. BLM is still good when you want a solid sub that kills things VEEERY slowly, but safely. DRK is good if you have an attack build. RNG, I wouldn't mess with that outside of Ballista or skill up pts. :P

I see a lot of posts mentioning /BLM for Rasp, Shock, Frost, etc.. but one of the largest advantages for /WHM are the status cures. If I am asked to be main heal I always sub WHM for this reason, if there is a WHM in party I sub BLM for the elemental enfeebles, drain, and aspir.

here's my 2 cents, listing only subs i personally have lved and therefore have exprience with.

rdm/blm
pros: nice all around utility. you get a high mp pool, some extra int, elemental seal, drain, aspir, ele.enfeebles, conserve mp, escape, sleepga for croud control, wizard's earring for +5 elemental skill, and you never have to walk home.
cons: lacks status cures/curaga if you're main healing or xping on stat effect happy monsters. doesnt add anything useful to melee soloing except warp/escape for emergencies.

rdm/whm
pros: erase, -na spells, bar spells, protectra/shellra, curaga, slightly higher mnd, divine seal, healer's earring when you need one more -emnity.
cons: smaller mp pool then rdm/blm, adds nothing useful to melee or sleep/nuke soloing unless dealing w a status happy mob, divine seal/cure IV after convert gets annoying if you merit convert timer much, and you only get basic teles so you often have to walk quite a long way home.

rdm/brd
pros: ballad, paeon is better then our crappy regen 1 anyway, small bonus from minuete/mandrigal but not much, you could piss things off w foe/horde lullaby if needed but probably not sleep them reliably.
cons: very party specific. rocks for manaburns, for if you're in the blm pt in dynmis, for some missions and oddball xp party setups. but your brd buffs are half level, and nothing will not give the boots a full brds songs would. you dont get any mp from brd sub so you'll have a smaller then normal mp pool.

rdm/nin
pros: utsusemi, dual weild for offhanding a stat weapon (like martial analace for tp effect, or thantos baselard for some extra feeb skill) or for 2 fast daggers and enspell fun. survivability basically. with good timing and enough blink tools you can survive most mobs nearly indefinately once you get :ni. neat for tanking in some situations, just 2 hr sleep 2 to get hate at the start and have a thf handy for sata.
cons: low mp pool. adds little if anything to most xp situations, does not really do much in terms of increasing our dmg melee wise. there's a reason those avestra videos are so damn long...

rdm/drk
pros: stun, chainspell stun for gods/hmns/generally badassary. drain and aspir before you'd get them from /blm. absmnd. i've occationally used rdm/drk as a caster job in xp parties and casting paralyze after sticking absmnd gets some sick resaults. for melee solo, gives you a better mp pool then most other solo subs, nice native attack up trait, souleater/last resort for weaponskills, access to weaponskills such as vorpal blade, and you get to wear a nifty killers earring for +5 attack.
cons: lower mp pool then blm or whm sub, still doesnt give you the ability to pull "real" dd numbers on xp mobs.

I thought I would give some insight here as to the world of the RDM/WAR, as no one else had said anything about it.

CONS:

Social/General: RDM/WAR is generally frowned upon as a really poor class combination excluding solo. You can expect to have a more difficult time finding parties. This class combination demands your subjob be levelled, as it is necessary to gather every scrap of power you can to make this work. This class combo demands a lot of equipment, a lot of money, and a lot of attention.

Stats: You're going to miss out on a lot of MP. You're going to lose some MND and some INT as well. You will have to make up for this with rings, wands, necklaces, and cloaks. This means learning and utilizing equipment change macros for almost everything you do.

Abilities: You're trading off a lot of backline and support ability for frontline ability that is very much self-only. You will lose elemental debuffs, -ga or -na spells, seals, and the job traits inherent in a mage sub.

Pros:

Social/General: You can solo. Not only can you solo, but you can do it damn well. You'll be able to solo T-VT all the way to your thirties. You can tank. You can even do it just as well as normal tanks all the way until 30. I tanked for quite a few parties in Valkum, Qufim and Kazham and never missed a beat. You can function as a watered down paladin, with better hate control all the way until Flash hits the scenes.

Stats: As a Hume RDM/WAR my stats varied from each other by less than 3-4 through every level. You are the epitome of balance. You do nothing excellent, you do nothing poorly. You can fill any role that comes in demand, as long as your equipment is ready to ADJUST to it.

Abilities: You get voke. And more defense. This can be very hard to work with compared to the other abilities you could have. But if you want to be a RDM/WAR you have to realize it isn't a game of stats or abilities, it is a playstyle.

FAQ I get about RDM/WAR ingame

Does RDM/WAR solo well? Yes. I'd argue it solos better than any job other than BST.

Do you have that much trouble getting a PT? No. RDMs are that much in demand. People will give you funny looks, but put up a good search comment.

Can RDM/WAR really tank? Yes, up until about 30, at which point you start fighting mobs with a lot more double attack, and a lot more damage. I would predict that RDM/WAR loses almost all tanking ability in a PT until level 50 when defender can be used.

Does RDM/WAR do lots of damage? No. No. And for the last time, no. You want big damage and casting, go DRK! RDM/WAR functions in a way that wears monsters down. Yes you can solo Ts and VTs pretty easy, but it takes minutes and minutes to do so.

Does RDM/WAR farm well? Yes. But only after you get Refresh and Convert to eliminate downtime.

You CAN TANK, you can NOT do lots of damage. That about sums it up.

Thanks for this. :thumbsup: In the beginning I thought myself quite crazy to lvl RDM/WAR but I soon found out that it wasn't so bad, atleast so far; current RDM lvl being 17.

For anyone thinking about not solo'ing RDM/WAR between lvls 10-17 and would rather take the plunge just for fun, really, in a pt @ Valkurm Dunes:

Basically~ Stacks of Rolanberry pies, good armor and decent weapon for appropiate lvl = key; IMO.

By doing this I can melee, enfeeb, and nuke nicely. I didn't get to try and use provoke though, as we had a PL and we let him soak up the hate.. so as far as tanking goes, I have no experience whatsoever.

This is how I went about everything, perhaps use it as guideline if you wish:

First things first:

One key word! MACROS MACROS MACROS. If you don't use Macros I can almost guarantee this whole ordeal will become very difficult and frustrating.. seeing as you are Nuke'ing, Enfeeb'ing, and Melee'ing each mob consecutively one after another, rapid fire. So yah, use them. They are your friend ^-^

Starting:

Enfeeb~ Dia, Blind, Paralyze -- in that order for every mob

Continue with:

Nuke~ Stone, Water, Aero; I mostly did Aero considering it did the most dmg, but whatever MP permits, use it.. Although I advise not to use all your MP for each and every mob unless absolutely neccessary since that can become time-consuming, you lose TP for having to heal so much (although the WS's as rdm/war do sucky dmg I'm afraid O.o), and besides the fact you can always Melee.. and again, if MP permits enfeeb/nuke some more whilst melee'ing :thumbsup:

And Lastly:

Melee~ Of course since by the time you get to Melee the HP of the mobs should be pretty middle-to-low, but if you have a decent weapon (Spatha is great!) you can still do not too bad dmg melee'ing.. so give it a try ^-^


Andddd, that's pretty much it.


Please keep in kind that I've only lvled RDM/WAR only as far as lvl17 (at dunes), and have no experience whatsoever in lvling that combo on a higher level. I found the RDM/WAR combo to be actually quite fun.. if your willing to fork over money for pies (about 4k for a stack) and good equipment. Boooyah :thumbsup:

RDM/WAR is outmoded, except maybe when you're a small group situation where you need Provoke to tank.

For solo play RDM/BLU is now a much stronger combination, as it gives you access to a variety of interesting new spells, particularly Coccoon (+50% Defense) which gives you stronger defense to combine with Stoneskin, Phalanx, and Bio II or Bio III (at level 75) to make things hit you for much less damage.


Icemage

Meepus,

At RDM17/WAR8, you get exactly one useful thing from /WAR, which is Provoke. With Provoke, Cure and Blind, RDM/WAR can actually be a decent enough tank at those levels--but if you're not tanking, RDM/WAR is pointless.

At RDM20/WAR10, you actually get a defense bonus from /WAR, so if you want to tank, that's really the level to start anyway. Eat defense food (like boiled crab), gulp juice, and forget your TP if you really want to play RDM/WAR; RDM is a mage, and needs MP.

If you don't want to tank, use RDM/WHM instead, please.

Note that /WAR doesn't really make your sword strikes all that much more powerful. If anything, /RNG, /DRG, or /DRK during RDM Lv.20-29 will improve your damage more than /WAR. Of course, if you're after damage, you're better off with some other job instead of RDM.

* * *

/heal on between battles, get your MP, and use a wand when casting spells for more MND and INT. In fact, switch to a different wand when resting for MP; Pilgrim's Wand (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Pilgrim%27s_Wand) is your friend.

If you must swing a sword, remember your en- spells; those can easily add 25% or more to your melee damage, while the WS's will not do much, as you've observed yourself.

Unless you are tanking, don't melee monsters with AoE attacks (e.g. "Bomg Toss") or nasty enfeeb moves like Sleepga (e.g. "Dream Flower"). Last thing any party needs is an MP sponge of a RDM.

Unless you are tanking, don't melee monsters with AoE attacks (e.g. "Bomg Toss") or nasty enfeeb moves like Sleepga (e.g. "Dream Flower"). Last thing any party needs is an MP sponge of a RDM.

I meleed as RDM all the way up to Refresh. We're not that bad, you just have to get proper nutrition and choose different gear. After Refresh, though, you need skill-up parties to keep melee up which you will want to do because the only situation in which you can't contribute in melee is XP and that's because XP parties pick on VT/IT. If you like your sword, i've found the Fencer's Ring is very nice if you can get your healers to cooperate (WHM's hate yellow HP). The ring activates with <100%TP and <75%HP (Yellow) and it gives +5 En- damage, which, at my level, is about a 10% damage boost. You'll still be hitting for 70 when the big guys are hitting for 150, but hey... damage is damage and as long as your Stoneskin is up, you won't be an "MP Sponge". Throwing on a Bar-status and a Bar-element are also nice. Plus if you sub BLU (which I love as a main and as a sub for RDM so far) you'll have to be in melee range to use half of your good spells anyway. The only problem with BLU is that a BLU needs "room to work" because a lot of the best spells are AoE, so throwing a Sandspin in a worm infested tunnel is not an option.

Not going to add my 2cp on *why* or *why not* a RDM should melee, but I have a question on *how* a RDM can effectively melee. Especially pre-41.

Maybe it's just me, but I spent every possible moment in a PT that I could bending a knee to rest.
With enfeebles (Dia, Slow, Paralyze, as well as the occasional Blind, Silence, Gravity - not to mention re-casts if an enfeeble drops early), and backup heals and/or nukes, I would easily spend 15-20% of my mp pool per fight. Sometimes closer to 30%.
Which means that if I were meleeing, I'd be out of MP by chain #2.

Unless you melee and drink juices? But then that would cut your melee efficiency by not eating +atk or +acc food, and would probably miss quite frequently (which means you'd do better damage by nuking).

*shrug*

Post 41, though, when you no longer need (or have time!) to rest, meleeing might be a possibility - but I'm still a fan of nuking over meleeing, unless you're solo (at which point you can safely melee using phalanx, stoneskin, utsusemi, etc.).

About as far as I'd ever go with RDM/WAR is the tanking T/VT scenario or PvP. It can work in solo, but you lose a lot of nifty spells from /NIN, /BLU or other subs in the process.

/WAR is really nice for PvP, though. Provoke interrupts spells in PvP and Double Attack and Berzerk are to have in close quarter combat, not to mention you'll have a sufficient number of spells to cripple your opponents. /DRK and /NIN aslo are very nice in PvP.

Hi, me again, "the noob who brought up RDM/PLD*," showing how the upcoming version update will benefit the anti-cookie-cutter-combo:

Sentinel: "Damage Mitigation" is still quite unclear. Best case scenario, you'll have some tanking ability that can stack with both Stoneskin and Phalanx; worst case, a time costlier version of Phalanx. Also, the increased enmity on "all actions taken while in Sentinel" is awesome to make this a more viable tank.

Shield Mastery: Quite obvious. Gives this combo a vital reason for wearing a Shield solely for the prevention of interruption of spellcasting.

Of course, these can work just as great, if not better, the other way around; I'm just sharing my happiness about it here :) .

* - by NO means am I the first, nor will I be the last, to think of this combo as a practical use for soloing, or, for parties, the tank/heal/support. I just greatly like the concept and promote it in spite of what others may say, so don't even bother flaming me.

What level is your RDM now? You still won't be able to take advange of Sentinel from /PLD until your Lv.60 anyway.

Shield Mastery is still not that useful to RDM; spell interruption is not much of a concern for us. We already have Aquaveil (Lv.12), and if you have Stoneskin and Phalanx up (while you should if you're in melee range), you won't be interrupted with or without a shield.

In party it's very unlikely you'll be casting with 1 hand weapon. All the spells we cast in regular basis will benefit a lot from elemental staves. And on a side note, Red mages have very little reason to call hate to ourselves to begin with :O

When soloing it might help. If we were able to block with our shield more often you know. And hoping those blocks to happen while I'm casting is even a rarer case...

I use Genbu Shield, so when I block, I'm taking little to no damage anyway. And my Enhancing Magic is so high that I can be getting walloped by 5 Mandies and still get off Phalanx's and Stoneskin's.

WAR is a better sub than PLD for solo.

Trust it.

I could see shield mastery being useful solo for recasting stoneskin while under fire, but as long as stoneskin is up you can't be interrupted by melee attacks anyway.

Sentinel, if the new effect is similar to phalanx and stacks with it, I suppose could be used for taking heat off a tank, but you could do so much more reliably with a Cure IV or Sleep, either of which would be available with any sub. For solo I can't envision a situation where a defensive effect that's only active for 30 seconds every 5 minutes would enable you to do anything you couldn't otherwise do. No matter what Sentinel turns out to be, I think Cocoon would prove to be superior.

Good to see you around though. How's your rdm coming?

Hi, me again, "the noob who brought up RDM/PLD*," showing how the upcoming version update will benefit the anti-cookie-cutter-combo

On a second reading, and judging from you tone, you seem to believe Dreams' posters are normal players, and their preferences are then thus "cookie-cutter".

If that is your assumption, you are very much mistaken.

If you read the postings--not just in RDM, but in other job forums, you'll see situational recommendation for /BRD for melee jobs, /RNG for jobs w/out useful range attack, /BLU for WAR to increase damage output, the supposedly lol /DRG, /PUP, and etc. And, that's just the obvious stuff.

Anyway, the widely agreed verdict is that RDM is so good, while /PLD doesn't add much, it certainly doesn't make RDM/PLD unusable. The combination, though, is a waste in the sense that you can always sub something even more useful than /PLD.

No matter how much you want to ignore those who bring up Cure IV as the answer to what you want to do with Cover, or disregard those of us who tell you Shield Mastery adds little TP+ or SIR- to a RDM with Stoneskin, Phalanx, and Aquaveil, your desire for otherwise doesn't make them untrue.

As I've implied, normal players don't post here much; the average players don't even post on forums, this one or any other. Your plan received close scrutiny from many people with great gasp of the game mechanics, and it was rated as "ho-hum"; it can do many of the things you wanted, just not the best for any of them.

Accept that, and move on. Go level your RDM instead--it's a lot more fun. ^_^

We're beating a dead horse here, but a good analogy came to me.

If you've played chess at all, you're probably aware that the majority of games start with pawn to E4. That is the "cookie-cutter" opening for the game. It is so because it has been analyzed to have broad strength in comparison to other opening moves and leaves many options open for development in the mid-game. Many new players get quickly bored with this strategy and want to experiment with more unorthodox moves. This is a perfectly natural way to start exploring the game and expressing your creativity through it. However, as people gain experience in the game, they start recognizing and appreciating the strengths of the tactics that have become traditional and return to them for most purposes. Could a player opening with something unusual like B3 or something off the wall like H4 beat a player who leads with the king pawn? Certainly. Ultimately the player with the best understanding of the game and knowledge of the capabilities and weaknesses of their choice is favored to win, but the player starting with H8 is going to be fighting at a disadvantage and will probably get some jeers from more veteran players for making a comparatively weak move.

Red mage subs are the same way. It may be true that the majority of people using accepted subs are simply sheep and don't understand why they made that choice. That's why the term cookie-cutter has become so negative. But there are also us players that have explored and considered the other options and have come back to the traditional combinations because we recognize that blm and whm are solid subs with broad utility and are most likely to give easy access to the tools we need as the party develops. Other subs just don't have equivalents for staple spells like Sleepga, Escape, Silena and Curaga.

Gotta leave for a christmas party so I'll cut this short. I have had red mages using traditional subs that were absolutely useless. I would rather have a rdm/pld that knows what they're doing than a rdm/whm that doesn't understand their responsibilities or the needs of the party. BUT because most experienced players tend to choose /blm or /whm over other subs, between two rdms I don't know, one with a cookie-cutter sub and one with something weird, I like my chances better inviting the cookie-cutter mage.

On a second reading, and judging from you tone, you seem to believe Dreams' posters are normal players, and their preferences are then thus "cookie-cutter".

If that is your assumption, you are very much mistaken.

If you read the postings--not just in RDM, but in other job forums, you'll see situational recommendation for /BRD for melee jobs, /RNG for jobs w/out useful range attack, /BLU for WAR to increase damage output, the supposedly lol /DRG, /PUP, and etc. And, that's just the obvious stuff.

That is not my assumption: it MIGHT have been if I were met with about a million more "STFU NOOB"s than I was (and, so far, the only person who really called me a noob was myself). <3 vosotros!

Anyway, the widely agreed verdict is that RDM is so good, while /PLD doesn't add much, it certainly doesn't make RDM/PLD unusable. The combination, though, is a waste in the sense that you can always sub something even more useful than /PLD.

Pretty much what I was aiming for: something that would be okay for me in plenty of situations, but not the best for, well, anything. Hey, isn't that what "jack-of-all-trades" means? Though by NO means will I EVER critisise anybody else's decisions: I'm hardly in the position to do so, lol!

No matter how much you want to ignore those who bring up Cure IV as the answer to what you want to do with Cover, or disregard those of us who tell you Shield Mastery adds little TP+ or SIR- to a RDM with Stoneskin, Phalanx, and Aquaveil, your desire for otherwise doesn't make them untrue.

As I've implied, normal players don't post here much; the average players don't even post on forums, this one or any other. Your plan received close scrutiny from many people with great gasp of the game mechanics, and it was rated as "ho-hum"; it can do many of the things you wanted, just not the best for any of them.

Again, when I say jack-of-all-trades, I seriously mean it. Not to say all of your suggestions, tips, and misscelania aren't INCREDIBLY smart and helpful ^_^ .

Accept that, and move on. Go level your RDM instead--it's a lot more fun. ^_^

Will do!

If I said anything that could pose an arguement, alert me, because that is exactly the thing I am avoiding.

But on the subject of odd subjobs (pre-emptive no offense, I already said I'm not doing any real criticism), you know why Monks don't sub Red Mage?

Because when ever they cast an Enfire . . . "OHMYGOODNESSMYHANDSAREONFIRE!"

(Again, no offense to any real MNK/RDMs; it was just a joke. If anybody had RDM/PLD jokes, I'd laugh with them, too.)



On a more serious note, has it been confirmed that Sentinel stacks with Stoneskin and Phalanx? From what I've heard, after everything is said and done, the damage Sentinel reduces is 90% of what it would have been (1000 Needles minus Sentinel equals only 100 damage, and that is when not enhanced by PLD JSE O_o ).

>_>

If you browse through The Red Mage Index (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/red-mage/63721-red-mage-index.html), you'll find a link for "En-spell damage explanation".


* Enhancing Magic skill < 150
(SQRT(enhancing_magic_skill) - 1) * (1 + weather_modifier + date_modifier)
* Enhancing Magic skill > 150
(( enhancing_magic_skill / 20 ) + 5 ) * (1 + weather_modifier + date_modifier)

Since en-spell damage is based on Enhancing Magic, MNK/RDM would only have minimal damage added per punch, given his Enhancing Magic would be half-levled at best, compared to the RDM's. Beserk, Warcry, and Attack Bonus from /WAR would be much more helpful, and is therefore the preferred support job for MNK's.

As with RDM/PLD, the answer to "Why Monks don't sub Red Mage?" is "Because, there's always a better support job to use instead."

If additional healing is desperately needed, MNK/WHM will do better than MNK/RDM. If damage is needed, MNK/WAR. If MNK is taking too much damage, he can use /NIN (though unlikely to be happy about it).

If no "real" healer seeking, ditch the MNK/RDM, and get a DRG/WHM or PLD/WHM instead.

. . . It was a joke. -.-;

Because, you know, if the Monk En-spells, it would be applied to his Knuckles, ispo ergo his hands. I was being hypothetical, anything but serious, and apologetic to anybody who may be offended.

/NIN RDM with cap'd daggers and evisceration can keep up with a normal not so merited DD class with 2 low delay daggers. 20 base dmg from enspell if enhancing magic is cap'd. rdm dont use swords... the dmg is not as good. unless you got a joytoy :evil:

/SMN is a joke to pt with, its not worth it

/BRD is just about the same, Ballad will last 1/2 the time and any song you put on melee is at 1/2 strenght.

/blm is good if there is a whm. about what who ever said about the /BLM enfebs, choke rasp drown ect... there not that great for normal pt's by the time u get off all your rdm enfebs then start on the blm enfebs the fight will almost be over. that and if you think you can /blm and replace a blm, your dreamin. i'm a RDM75 taru, a BLM hume can out DD me with the same Tier III spell. and i do have MaB gear to help.


/whm is overall the best choice for rdm for many reasons. 1, divine seal. it saves you 100mp when you convert. -na spells, macroing in your -na spells will save a nin's ass if he's para'd. and the -ra spells are okay to have, when ever i main heal in a pt i -ra everyone and IV the tank. 80% of merit pt's im in i'm the only mage, i've tried /blm and /whm. /whm was by far WAY eaiser to squeez my MP out for 10 mins. that and you have a higher Clear Mind with /whm...


/drk is for HNM/NM pt's for chain stun. no point in going /drk in a xp pt when u can /nin

/war is a joke if u plan on xping with. pple do that in teh d00nz

/rng is fun to play around with


PVP:

/nin /blu /blm

Depending on lv uncap i like going /nin altho i've found it eaiser to kill a PLD going /blu and Garuda's dagger longer fight but i've found your stoneskin will last almost twice as long, guess its player preference tho

Juices and Food stack. You can be under effect of attack or acc food and still pop juices constantly.

Juices and Food stack. You can be under effect of attack or acc food and still pop juices constantly.
How do you plan to carry enough ingredients to "pop juice constantly" to last 3+ hours? Heck, how do you plan to find the time to craft juice during parties? >_>; I can barely find time for /heal on most of the time.

/SMN is a joke to pt with, its not worth it
It's situational; best Convert, and Auto-Refresh is nicer than Ballad from /BRD for its "always on" nature. (Though, it is only only for yourself). Aerial Armor has marginal utility for overly eager melee type without /NIN, to boot.

/BRD is just about the same, Ballad will last 1/2 the time and any song you put on melee is at 1/2 strenght.
RDM/BRD is a very strong choice in MP heavy parties; 4 MP/tick is a 25% performance increase over 3 MP/tick with only Refresh. In a mage heavy party, no need to cast as many enfeebs, and practically no need to Cure at all, so one's own MP pool isn't as much of a concern.

/whm is overall the best choice for rdm for many reasons. 1, divine seal. it saves you 100mp when you convert. -na spells, macroing in your -na spells will save a nin's ass if he's para'd. and the -ra spells are okay to have, when ever i main heal in a pt i -ra everyone and IV the tank. 80% of merit pt's im in i'm the only mage, i've tried /blm and /whm. /whm was by far WAY eaiser to squeez my MP out for 10 mins. that and you have a higher Clear Mind with /whm...

That last part is false; Clear Mind from /WHM will not stack with RDM's native Clear Mind trait. Otherwise, I do agree RDM/WHM is the most useful exp combo.

RDM/BRD is a very strong choice in MP heavy parties; 4 MP/tick is a 25% performance increase over 3 MP/tick with only Refresh. In a mage heavy party, no need to cast as many enfeebs, and practically no need to Cure at all, so one's own MP pool isn't as much of a concern.

I'd say RDM/BRD is extremely situational. If you're EXPing in a zone where there's no quick way out, I'd still feel better with /BLM for CS/Escape if the need arises. MP heavy PTs just don't happen unless its manaburn. Even if they do at 55+ you have Sanction Refresh to enjoy. That's a constant Ballad.

And now in the Conquest zones, the +hHP recovery is insane with Signet, melee and tanks have no excuse not to rest when the opportunity comes, which is going to take the burden off mages not only in EXP PTs, but alliance play as well. Remember, we topped off melee and tank because if they did rest, there was TP loss. There is no TP loss with Signet active now, so that's saving MP right there.

And in a mage-heavy PT - which is usually a manaburn these days - I trust a BLM to cure as far as I could throw them. They're typically not good about monitoring cures, which leaves the burden of curing on the RDM more often than not in such a setup. /WHM is going to support that function better anyway. And really, if you're in a good manaburn, you're going to have BLMs loaded to the brim with +hMP gear anyway. I'd sooner go RDM/NIN than /BRD in manaburn, provided one BLM would be willing to go /WHM.

RDM/BRD is a nice idea, but I've never really found a scenario where it was necessary, I just can't justify 1 extra MP a tick over what I could get from other subjobs. I could see its benefits in alliance play prior to the Signet change, but ever other instance I've thought it might have been plausible, it seem the idea is quickly snuffed out. So I still find /BRD advocates to be on the fringe

It's situational; best Convert, and Auto-Refresh is nicer than Ballad from /BRD for its "always on" nature. (Though, it is only only for yourself). Aerial Armor has marginal utility for overly eager melee type without /NIN, to boot.


taru rdm/whm i already have over 70 more MP then HP, not counting when i have some of my Zenith on..... even worse on /blm...

double post sry...

First of all, why would RDM be able to equip the strongest swords and armors in the game and NOT be on the front line? That being said, I vote for RDM/WAR, RDM/DRK, or RDM/PLD! Also, I'm only a lv 22 RDM/WAR right now and have only a month under my belt. (have researched a lot though...)

RDM/WAR, RDM/DRK PROS:
Put your ability to equip the best attacking equipment to good use. Actually conjuer up some good attack througought your levels. Be able to put your DDs to more use. Your common PT DD is ONLY good for damage. I just can't figure out why that is good. Diversify! RDM/DRK,RDM/WAR can deal damage AND cure AND enfeeble AND occasionally nuke. +, YOU CAN SOLO BETTER THAN ALMOST ANY OTHER COMBO.

CONS: You don't get invited to PTs as often because of close-minded players... Oh, and you aren't the BEST at one particular thing

RDM/PLD PROS:
See pros above but for defense instead of attacking.

Cons: See Cons above

First of all, why would RDM be able to equip the strongest swords and armors in the game
Excepting for Excalibur, they can't.

First of all, why would RDM be able to equip the strongest swords and armors in the game and NOT be on the front line?

1. B rated skill in Sword, without access to most of the better damage ones. You'd be at lower base accuracy than melees using A rated weapons, and hitting for less when your swings connect.

2. B rated skill in Dagger. Unlike THF, you can't make huge spike damage with a dagger. Not even if you go /THF. Dagger DoT isn't that impressive, and you still have less accuracy and do less damage per hit than a THF, who is a real Dagger specialist.

3. Eating a sleepga or other AoE attacks isn't helpful to your party. You should be helping to wake up people hit by attacks like Dream Flowers or healing those damaged by Cursed Sphere, not be a burden on other mages.

4. Your best asset to help a party is MP. If you're not casting, you should be resting. Besides, once your duty expand fully, you'd have on your plate multiple Refresh, multiple Haste, enfeeb, crowd control, main or backup curing, status removal (if using /WHM). At that point, melee'ing becomes a unneeded distraction.

Some RDM's say they can do all that well, and still melee; I can't. If you can't either, then other duties should take priority over your low damage output from melee'ing.

5. Lv.51 and above, you should be switching between different elemental staves for different spells, all the time. You lose TP every time you switch. You lose DoT every time you auto-attack with a staff (of which you have 0 native skill) instead of sword or dagger. Your melee output will suck, a lot. Before Lv.51, you should be casting with a MND+/INT+ wand to increase spell potency. Again, the same problem, except you actually have some club skill--too bad those wands are low damage weapons, so you still lose TP and have lower damage over time.


YOU CAN SOLO BETTER THAN ALMOST ANY OTHER COMBO.
Well, if solo'ing, use whatever you like.

If in party, the best thing usually is to try to use a {Support Job} which best aid the {Support Role Job} that is a RDM. You can't go very wrong Lv.1 to 75 exp'ing on /WHM, honestly.

Of course, RDM can actually tank in very low level parties with /WAR, so if that's a party needs--and you have the gears to play that role, go for it. There are parties where DD's are so terrible that a RDM melee'ing full time is essential, but those are not the parties you want, believe me.

(My RDM was actually the top DD in one Yhoator Jungle party--it stands out in my memory as one of the worst party I've ever joined, with one memorable "DD SMN" doing less damage than the WHM, avatars included.)

Just remember, if a party which already have a tank and good DD's, then it won't need you to tank or do much damage. That includes the vast majority of parties, and you should go with /WHM (or /BLM, depending on party/camp/monster) in those.

Not to be a jerk, but it tickles my funny bone that the folks suggesting all of these unusual things are always like "Hay, I'm only level 22, but I have totally read a lot of forums and sites. So I know what I'm talking about!"

Not to be a jerk, but it tickles my funny bone that the folks suggesting all of these unusual things are always like "Hay, I'm only level 22, but I have totally read a lot of forums and sites. So I know what I'm talking about!"
You forgot to add that the reason it doesn't work for them is it's everyone elses fault and they're the only ones who have been enlightened.

I hear ya. ^^; But I used to be the same way so I bite my tongue.

You all-powerful and all-knowing guys should give me some gil and tell me to shut up!

/blm is good if there is a whm. about what who ever said about the /BLM enfebs, choke rasp drown ect... there not that great for normal pt's by the time u get off all your rdm enfebs then start on the blm enfebs the fight will almost be over. that and if you think you can /blm and replace a blm, your dreamin. i'm a RDM75 taru, a BLM hume can out DD me with the same Tier III spell. and i do have MaB gear to help.
/whm is overall the best choice for rdm for many reasons. 1, divine seal. it saves you 100mp when you convert. -na spells, macroing in your -na spells will save a nin's ass if he's para'd. and the -ra spells are okay to have, when ever i main heal in a pt i -ra everyone and IV the tank.

throwing my hat in the ring here for a minute.. in the abstract, rdm/blm will manage mp better than rdm/whm (caveat: someone else has the appropriate na-spells for the camp and people are ok with you not casting more than one or two protect IV's)
primarily because whitemage (main or sub) has no native mp efficiency traits. conserve MP will save you approximately 7% of your gross mp usage over time - this is comparable to auto-refresh at ~285mp/min casting rate and is better above this (and less efficient below this).

in the earlier (pre 70+ levels) rdm/blm can also be useful in some camps for fast cast escape, and having warp is convenient at all levels.

so I would be happy with a rdm/blm or /whm in most pts.

throwing my hat in the ring here for a minute.. in the abstract, rdm/blm will manage mp better than rdm/whm (caveat: someone else has the appropriate na-spells for the camp and people are ok with you not casting more than one or two protect IV's)
primarily because whitemage (main or sub) has no native mp efficiency traits. conserve MP will save you approximately 7% of your gross mp usage over time - this is comparable to auto-refresh at ~285mp/min casting rate and is better above this (and less efficient below this).
in the earlier (pre 70+ levels) rdm/blm can also be useful in some camps for fast cast escape, and having warp is convenient at all levels.
so I would be happy with a rdm/blm or /whm in most pts.
In terms of typical party efficiency, the truth is that:

/WHM vs. /BLM

(1) Divine Seal + Cure IV is an automatic savings of 88MP every 10 minutes if you're doing a regular Convert cycle and burning Divine Seal on yourself.

(2) Assuming you manage your HP/MP with Regen correctly, Auto-Regen also chips in a little extra efficiency in there for no extra effort. This becomes doubly true if you are in a high-maintenance group who take a lot of damage; sacrifice Divine Seal to tack onto the odd Curaga II and now you're at ~90-120MP saved, plus making full use of Auto-Regen at 200 extra HP every 10 minutes.

(3) Erase is worth its weight in gold when you really need it.

Conserve MP is great. However, we can talk about 7% over time, but it's inconsistent. Sometimes the savings are there in spades and you have a ton of MP left over for extra nuking (whether you need it or not), and other times it kicks in virtually never and it's like you had no trait at all. In an extended XP session, this sort of inconsistency kills XP chains.

Overall, from personal experience, for XP parties, /WHM produces much more dependable and consistent results than /BLM unless you have some ridiculously good gear at 75 (Dalmatica + Duelist's Chapeau).


Icemage

Edited cuz I've been a bad boy.

Murph, I agree with your assessment of the guy. Seems to be the pattern more often than not, and definitely the case here.

Evion, I have no gil for you, but I concur with the latter half of your statement, at least until you are sufficiently experienced (personally, not reading the experiences of others) in the subject matter on which you speak. Bigg wurdz r fun.

Hi,

i restart with FFXI today and want to play a red mage.

I don't understand why nearly no one talks about the blue mage as Red Mage sub. Could someone explain me whats wrong with the blue mage? I thought his healing breeze is one of the most efficient heal spells out there. And his extra versatility sounds good, too. Also Cocoon gives the red mage an real big amount of defense. And there are a few additional buffs and debuffs too.

So whats the reason why nearly no one talks about this combination?

Hi,
i restart with FFXI today and want to play a red mage.
I don't understand why nearly no one talks about the blue mage as Red Mage sub. Could someone explain me whats wrong with the blue mage? I thought his healing breeze is one of the most efficient heal spells out there. And his extra versatility sounds good, too. Also Cocoon gives the red mage an real big amount of defense. And there are a few additional buffs and debuffs too.
So whats the reason why nearly no one talks about this combination?
Blue Mages stat boost seems to lend itself more to solo play or special events then a party sub. BLU is a good sub like DRK, BRD and NIN are good subs.

For healing brease, I don't know how linked that is to Blue Magic skill, if it's like Elemental spells then half skill from your sub would make it far less effective then it is with a BLU main.

AFAIK, some have leveled BLU as a RDM sub. I currently am, but I won't be using it in a Merit party when I do.

Blue Mage offers very little for party play for Red Mages. Zero useful job traits (you can't really get access to any of the good hidden bonuses like Auto-Refresh with access to only level 37 Blue Magic spells), and Healing Breeze is inferior to Curaga/Curaga II when subbed and compared to /WHM.

Really the only use for RDM/BLU I can see is when solo against hard-hitting enemies, where you can make use of Coccoon's excellent damage mitigation when paired with Stoneskin/Phalanx/Bio II-III, or for special-case level 40ish battles like Diabolos where you might be able to do some neat thngs with Chainspell + Headbutt. For party purposes, this is never, ever a good combination.


Icemage

Head Butt sucks even in 40-capped Diabolos. The stun goes off less than 50% of the time, which is just not reliable enough for that fight. As a backup stunner, it's not a bad idea but definately take a drk to that fight.

Mostly blu is nice as a sub for Cocoon, and also provides access to Ex weaponskills for both sword and club if for some reason you want to Seraph Strike something. Auto Regen from Healing Breeze+Sheep Song isn't bad for extended farming sessions either. For parties ... yeah, no good.

Overall, from personal experience, for XP parties, /WHM produces much more dependable and consistent results than /BLM unless you have some ridiculously good gear at 75 (Dalmatica + Duelist's Chapeau).

This is just nitpicking, this statement is fair to say about ToA EXP, but EXPing in RoZ or CoP zones where RDM is not being banked upon as a main healer, I'd still say /BLM was the way to go.

EXP PTs still happen in these areas, believe it or not. I did Ro'Maeve this week. Would have been much better had the RDM not gone /WHM.

This is just nitpicking, this statement is fair to say about ToA EXP, but EXPing in RoZ or CoP zones where RDM is not being banked upon as a main healer, I'd still say /BLM was the way to go.
It's more of a personal preference than anything, if -na, Erase, or Curaga isn't needed at all.

Otherwise, on things with AoE damages (Hi Hobgoblin), it's better for a RDM/WHM to toss out a Curaga to top off the melee than for a WHM to toss out one right after a Curaga II. Same with monster which have AoE status effects (e.g. Cockatrice, Antica). It's also nice to back up any SMN/WHM main healer with a RDM/WHM.

Frankly, if you not sure what you getting into, /WHM is the safer choice.

EXP PTs still happen in these areas, believe it or not. I did Ro'Maeve this week. Would have been much better had the RDM not gone /WHM.

Isn't Ro'Maeve a Weapons camp? Why would /WHM be bad? I'd think an extra Curaga after Whirl of Rage would be nice. Even if it's not needed, what does /BLM offer when fighting a Weapon? (And, if fighting Golems, too, wouldn't /WHM be even more desirable?)

With a NIN tank, /PLD or /DRK for Flash or Stun may be nice after Whirl of Rage, but I don't quite see the advantage of /BLM over /WHM here...

It's more of a personal preference than anything, if -na, Erase, or Curaga isn't needed at all.

Otherwise, on things with AoE damages (Hi Hobgoblin), it's better for a RDM/WHM to toss out a Curaga to top off the melee than for a WHM to toss out one right after a Curaga II. Same with monster which have AoE status effects (e.g. Cockatrice, Antica). It's also nice to back up any SMN/WHM main healer with a RDM/WHM.

Frankly, if you not sure what you getting into, /WHM is the safer choice.

Isn't Ro'Maeve a Weapons camp? Why would /WHM be bad? I'd think an extra Curaga after Whirl of Rage would be nice. Even if it's not needed, what does /BLM offer when fighting a Weapon? (And, if fighting Golems, too, wouldn't /WHM be even more desirable?)

With a NIN tank, /PLD or /DRK for Flash or Stun may be nice after Whirl of Rage, but I don't quite see the advantage of /BLM over /WHM here...

You're nitpicking the zone. Weapons and Statues, in addition to most RoZ/CoP mobs still have higher defenses here and what is RDM all about? Right, Enfeebling. Endurance. /BLM gives you more options to do just that. You get quite a bit more than the novelties of a /PLD sub. /DRK isn't the one-trick pony PLD is.

And skillchains can come back into play, i'd rather a RDM watch for those and MB for faster kills here than continue to play Pink Mage from ToA. /BLM adds just a little push there, alibeit not a big one, but i look to RDM to MB with or without a BLM present in these areas.

At any rate, I object to the notion /BLM can only be better with [Insert Absurdy difficult-to-obtain endgame gear here]. Its not the subjob for main healing, sure, but RDM doesn't always have to be a go-to healer, I think the TP burn trend has just stereotyped it as such.

In terms of typical party efficiency, the truth is that:
/WHM vs. /BLM
(1) Divine Seal + Cure IV is an automatic savings of 88MP every 10 minutes if you're doing a regular Convert cycle and burning Divine Seal on yourself.
(2) Assuming you manage your HP/MP with Regen correctly, Auto-Regen also chips in a little extra efficiency in there for no extra effort. This becomes doubly true if you are in a high-maintenance group who take a lot of damage; sacrifice Divine Seal to tack onto the odd Curaga II and now you're at ~90-120MP saved, plus making full use of Auto-Regen at 200 extra HP every 10 minutes.
(3) Erase is worth its weight in gold when you really need it.
Conserve MP is great. However, we can talk about 7% over time, but it's inconsistent. Sometimes the savings are there in spades and you have a ton of MP left over for extra nuking (whether you need it or not), and other times it kicks in virtually never and it's like you had no trait at all. In an extended XP session, this sort of inconsistency kills XP chains.
Overall, from personal experience, for XP parties, /WHM produces much more dependable and consistent results than /BLM unless you have some ridiculously good gear at 75 (Dalmatica + Duelist's Chapeau).
Icemage

(based on the way you worded this, I'm assuming you mean that there is no whm present in the pt and the rdm is either sharing the healing role with a smn/whm or solo healing) in which case I agree fully.

with a whm in the pt though, you should be getting a regen III and/or a 'better' cure from the whitemage (I get ~250 cure III's in exp on whm, assuming people leave my hp alone) and not need the DS to save 88 mp, (which, when you're alone significantly reduces the 'bonus' of conserve mp for most convert cycles)

and the whole point of extended exp is that the bonuses *do* average out over time, so assuming you're in a party that can chain 7 without putting you close to oom, then conserve mp isn't going to suddenly 'fail' at chain 37; although I had forgotten about Divine Seal in terms of gaining mp efficiency (DS+curaga II is a great way to save mp lol)

Otherwise, on things with AoE damages (Hi Hobgoblin), it's better for a RDM/WHM to toss out a Curaga to top off the melee than for a WHM to toss out one right after a Curaga II. Same with monster which have AoE status effects (e.g. Cockatrice, Antica). It's also nice to back up any SMN/WHM main healer with a RDM/WHM.

possibly nitpicking - if a curaga is all that's needed then the rdm/whm doesn't need to cast at all, the whitemage will clean it up with regens if they're not dumb as a brick. (topping people off is the biggest support healer mistake any job can make in parties that contain a whitemage.)

going /whm for supporting status effects is always a good idea though.

and yeah, I totally agree that for main/co-healing, there is only one good sub (rdm/whm)

possibly nitpicking - if a curaga is all that's needed then the rdm/whm doesn't need to cast at all, the whitemage will clean it up with regens if they're not dumb as a brick. (topping people off is the biggest support healer mistake any job can make in parties that contain a whitemage.)

As long as you're aware that Curaga can be potentially more MP efficient than Regen. :P And, I didn't really mean "top off" as in fill to 100% full for everyone--poor choice of words. Just that bomb/sphere type attack can really take out a lot of HP, so you'd want the frontline jobs all in white before the next critter, and fast.

You're nitpicking the zone.
I used your example, looked up what people usually exp on there, then tried to figure out why you said you'd rather the RDM go with /BLM. :rolleyes:

Right, Enfeebling. Endurance. /BLM gives you more options to do just that. You get quite a bit more than the novelties of a /PLD sub. /DRK isn't the one-trick pony PLD is.

And skillchains can come back into play, i'd rather a RDM watch for those and MB for faster kills here than continue to play Pink Mage from ToA. /BLM adds just a little push there, alibeit not a big one, but i look to RDM to MB with or without a BLM present in these areas.

I've used both RDM/BLM and RDM/WHM quite a it, and have to say the Conserve MP isn't very noticeable, and Aspir not very reliable. 7% saving is great, but when I toss out a Curaga, it saves both MP and time.

However much I like Aspir, it does return uninspiring net gain or even less MP than it uses pretty often. -_- We don't always get to fight monsters with MP, either--heck, most parties don't even tell me where we're going during invite, much less which monsters we're fighting.

My attitude toward backup healing is this: whatever minor things I offload from the main healer, I help them do their primary job--keeping the tank alive--better. I don't always need /WHM for that, but it comes in handy often enough to make it my favorite and default support job in exp parties.

BTW, /PLD is a two-trick pony: Auto-Refresh and Flash. MB'ing is not about the support job, but about having enough MP and time. A few points of INT from /BLM really won't help that much. If expecting long fights, I rather MB enfeebs like Paralyze instead of nukes if SC'ing at the beginning of the fight.

No question that /BLM is a great support job, with ES, Sleepga, Conserver MP, Escape, Aspir, Tractor, Drain. Its elemental enfeebs are very much complimentary to RDM's enfeebling role, too. I just find myself using the tools from /WHM more often than I do with /BLM when I'm on that combination, so it seems like /WHM is more useful overall to me.

At any rate, I object to the notion /BLM can only be better with [Insert Absurdy difficult-to-obtain endgame gear here]. Its not the subjob for main healing, sure, but RDM doesn't always have to be a go-to healer, I think the TP burn trend has just stereotyped it as such.

Don't know why you mention gears, because I sure haven't even thought about endgame gear. >_>

Where I like to use /BLM the most is with aggressive pullers where the party has two other /WHM (or WHM), and using a dangerous camp. It's the best crowd control combination, with Sleepga and Elemental Seal. Also great where Escape can potentially save a party.

RDM/BLM also pretty nice when there's another refresher plus a great WHM in party--if I don't need to cure much and can afford to blow MP on nukes, I might as well add some elemental enfeebs to keep from getting bored.

Overall, though, I still think it's mostly a matter of preference. Many RDM exp'ed to Lv.75 using only /BLM, and many only using /WHM. They both work.

If we're talking about Weapon camps in sky or Ro'Maeve, frankly I'd rather use RDM/BRD there than RDM/BLM. Horde Lullaby is a 0 MP counter to Blink, which is worth more than every spell you get from /BLM. Saves huge MP because it's one more effect you don't have to Dispel (speaking of which, Magic Finale when /BRD is 100% effective against those spell buffs Weapons use too).

I'm not saying RDM/BLM is bad. It's a decent catch-all sub, and undeniably the best RDM sub from 40-50. When you do have a dedicated WHM in the party, then by all means, knock yourself out with /BLM. It doesn't really happen often though.


Icemage

As long as you're aware that Curaga can be potentially more MP efficient than Regen. :P And, I didn't really mean "top off" as in fill to 100% full for everyone--poor choice of words. Just that bomb/sphere type attack can really take out a lot of HP, so you'd want the frontline jobs all in white before the next critter, and fast.
had me curious about where the breaking point was (I was aware that curaga line could potentially do more but usually only in situations where literally everyone gets hit, so here's the numbers; I excluded the briault and merits from the effect and am comparing redmage curaga and curaga II with whm regen I/ II/ III (so +10% only on curaga)

Curaga 100 * people / 60 = 1.67 * people hp/mp
Curaga II 210 * people / 120 = 1.75 * people hp/mp
Regen 125 / 15 = 8.33
Regen II 240 / 36 = 6.67
Regen III 400 / 64 = 6.25
for curaga II (the most efficient redmage curaga) to be as cost effective as Regen III (the least efficient whitemage regen) you would need to hit 3.7 full bars. in a 'traditional' PT (tank DD DD support nuke healer) you won't get 3 bars. in a melee pt (DD/tank DD DD DD support healer) you can get 4 (at which point the whitemage should *still* be casting curaga II over the redmage, since whm will get an additional 10%) with the 10% gain from whitemage, you would only need to hit about 3.3 people
for Curaga II to be as efficient as regen, it'd take almost 5 people in aoe range. (which might happen on occasion for a bard/whm but rarely would for a rdm/whm)
time efficiency is, of course, a factor (and one of the key reasons that whitemages don't stop using single cures at higher levels) and a curaga/curaga II plus the extra resting time may be better mp management, but in terms of efficiency, a regen spec'd whitemage blows the socks off all competition short of dragoon healing breath.
for the record at 75, I use a mix of curaga and regen and only use single target cures when an utsu tank gets in the orange or a paladin tank gets to cure V range, excluding situations where the one-shot threshold is higher than this and when targets are too spread out to hit a sufficient number with curaga (and outside party cure targets, of course). I did not merit regen and I don't own a briault (so my numbers are as above).

Horde Lullaby is a 0 MP counter to Blink, which is worth more than every spell you get from /BLM.

I'm sorry, this doesn't make any sense. Most weapon mobs come buffed. Why not just Dipsel/Finale off the bat? Dispel doesn't cost that much MP.

I'm sorry, this doesn't make any sense. Most weapon mobs come buffed. Why not just Dipsel/Finale off the bat? Dispel doesn't cost that much MP.

x-aga is a faster and free way to wipe the shadows that the melee cares about getting stripped, and saves that first dispel/finale for a *real* buff. (like pro or stoneskin)

diaga would probably accomplish a similar goal for rdm main, pulling double duty as both dia and a shadow wipe.

(does dispel ignore shadows?)

x-aga is a faster and free way to wipe the shadows that the melee cares about getting stripped, and saves that first dispel/finale for a *real* buff. (like pro or stoneskin)

Its going to be gone in three swipes anyway, if that's the best reason, I'd rather you did go /WHM.

(does dispel ignore shadows?)

No, it kills them.

That's not entirely true. At least rdm dispel can go through and dispel blink, but it can also be absorbed by a shadow. If it's utsusemi, one shadow will always take the dispel.

That's not entirely true. At least rdm dispel can go through and dispel blink, but it can also be absorbed by a shadow. If it's utsusemi, one shadow will always take the dispel.

so it doesn't ignore shadows (blink being a percentage throw between you and your shadows.. I wonder how different ninja would be if utsusemi *was* blink. lol )

Its going to be gone in three swipes anyway, if that's the best reason, I'd rather you did go /WHM.

A lot of those Ro'Maeve weapons come in with as many as 6 buffs (Protect, Shell, Haste, Stoneskin, Blink, Aquaveil). You don't have time to cast Dispel 6 times praying to hit the one buff which is Protect.

Horde Lullaby is a guaranteed 100% wipe against Blink, which would otherwise potentially zap one of your Dispels.

No, it kills them.
Incorrect. Dispel and Magic Finale can both be absorbed by Blink, just like any other targetted attack.

The combination of Horde Lullaby + Magic Finale as a second 0 MP Dispel outweighs every other sub you can use against Weapons in Ro'Maeve. The savings in MP cost on Dispel alone make it worthwhile, and the extra kill speed when you're casting Dispel/Finale at twice the regular rate, plus Horde Lullaby to ensure you don't get blink-shadowed on Finale/Dispel means that Protect is gone much sooner than later. Also note that those two extra hits Blink might absorb could be one of your Dispels, or could otherwise be two solid melee hits.

I've used /WHM, /BLM, and /BRD there, and /BRD outperforms in spades.


Icemage

Blue Mage offers very little for party play for Red Mages. Zero useful job traits (you can't really get access to any of the good hidden bonuses like Auto-Refresh with access to only level 37 Blue Magic spells), and Healing Breeze is inferior to Curaga/Curaga II when subbed and compared to /WHM.

So Auto-Regen (from Healing Breeze + Sheep Song set together) stacked with normal Rege