Successfull Alternatives to the normal subclass.

[shaunathan]

poor kailea, this one's for you.

ok now without the "you suck because this is the ONLY valid subjob." let's have an intellegent debate with examples from either game manual, tip books, or web site links.

now of course as with D&D you should focus your efforts on what makes your main class more efficent. Should you decide you'd like to extend your abilities to something not related to the class you risk spreading yourself too thin to be any asset, which is where I believe many arguements lie. The consensus of this board from what I've seen is that dragoon is one of these classes that can be spread too thin by choosing certain jobs. So let's focus on what a dragoon really is.

As I see it, a Dragoon is a physical dammage dealer, much how a Black Mage is a magical dammage dealer. This means that dispite our armor we are not a tank, our role is not to take dammage, if you wish to be a dragoon that takes dammage that falls under the "spreading yourself too thin" catagory because you clearly can not be and do it all, you must choose a role, which is the basis of "role playing games."

We are what is sometimes refered to as a "Glass Cannon" we can dish out the dammage but we break if you start to hit us. By subbing war you can take a few hits and it aids you in giving the dammage so you can see why many people choose DRG/WAR. it's the middle ground and offers the greatest comprimise.

Knowing the role of a dragoon is to deal dammage making every hit count may also be your priority, in which case you want to focus on missing as little as possible. This is where arguements to things like Thief and Ninja Arise. Now endless debates have been made as to which is a better choice, I feel this is where personal preference comes into play.

DRG/MNK, Dragoon monk is a new and unique sub job that has been toyed with lately from what I've seen, having never played a monk I can not verify if this increases your dex though I imagine it would. Some of the other skills may increase dammage as well. If anyone has any weapon abilities or strategies for this combo please share them.

DRG/magic user Gennerally this is a bad idea in respect to black magic, as any Pure Black mage (meaning BLK as your main class) will tell you the goal with that job is to max out your skill in your direct dammage to maximize usefullness, with your subjob being half your main you will never have a really successfull time landing your spells with any bite, so it's gennerally a bad idea to sub magic user with the intent of direct dammage. As for Red Mage sub, I've seen mid level dragoons pull this off as they claim the enfeebling magics aid a dragoon in being a puller or an assistant to the puller. I think this a valid arguement and you can read an entire post about this (it's a sticky). Subbing with the intent of using any kind of curative magic would be usefull in soloing for sure, as for with a group I honestly couldn't say.. Honestly the majority of groups I see prefer dedicated healers not because they are being prejudice but because most players who sub a healing class are busy doing other things for the party and can't stop everything and heal the party.

As for DRG/PLD which was your orginial theory, though the increased defense is tempting the problem here is that as a glass cannon, your group should know better than to let you take dammage, also your whitemagic which doesn't have much mp to begin with will have even less being a sub class.

if you want more defense I would suggest creating a macro that can equip defensive gear on you such as +DEF rings. This can be done using a /equip or /unequip command in the macro.

this accomplishes your goal of more def with your dragoon and doesn't sacrifice a sub job slot.

I hope this has helped you and I'm sorry I couldn't post on your orginial posting due to it being locked.

if anyone would like to add to this I'd like either logic or references to back up your claim.

[sonova]

heres some logic for you
the game has been out for ages

every conceivable combination has probably been already tried not only by the hardcore English crews but also by the hardcore JPN dudes with too much time on their hands.

also most possible combinations have already been discussed to death in previous discussions. this discussion is tired old shit which is unlikely to add anything new to the class combination dynamics of the game.

the dominant archetypes are dominant for a reason you know

kk thx drive thru

[SelfdestButton]

I'll wing something.

DRG/RNG perhaps? accuracy bonuses sound cool. alertness/camouflage, and some abilties to help your ranged. I don't know if a dragoon can even use decent ranged weapons but even if he could the best benefit would be the fact that at lvl 60 you'd have 3 accuracy bonuses. Does this make up for the loss of berserk, double attack, and an attack bonus though?

Probably not. As for Kailea, my heart bleeds that muffin can't be unique, really. But the argument was rhetorically moot from the beginning.

[Roldarin]

Subjobs often should augment the main jobs abilities. And DRK/RNG doesn't seem to do that. DRK passive skills raise Physical Attack, while RNG passive skills raise ranged accuracy (strangely enough range attacks are not physical attacks). And although I don't know how good DRK is with a bow, I'm guess they are much better with a scythe.

DRK/WAR is a much better combination because the WAR abilities can augment the DRK's ability to use a scythe. A RNG offers nothing.

[LegendaryFire]

yeah, I myself plan on being a drg/rdm and assisting the puller.

But I was wondering, how much mp does a red mage add to the dragoon. If you could show the stats, that would be much appreciated. Thanks

[Tidane]

Here are the stats for a Hume DRG/RDM at level 30/15

HP: 498
MP: 52
STR: 33
DEX: 29
VIT: 31
AGI: 29
INT: 26
MND: 28
CHR: 31

Remember, these are just raw stats, there isn't anything in there such as bonuses from equipment.

[shaunathan]

As Tazrai explained there are of course japanese users who are DRG/RDM but also as she pointed out in her very detailed examples on the role of a DRG/RDM you'll only be casting a few enfeebling spells per round with your MP, so in concert with juice this isn't a bad way to go. The only draw back is that a puller doesn't really need an assistant untill about mid level so you'll need to find other reason for people to join you up for advancement untill then. Glad to see there are people out there who can intellegently carry a conversation and don't boil it down to "you suck I don't like this topic so rather than not posting on it I will use this oppertunity to complain and cuss."

[neighbortaru]

OMG. Tazirai is a she?? :eek:

[fuz]

I'll just add that as drk, even with my drk magic near maxed (say 9/10 for my level), I still get a lot of low numbers and a fair amount of resists. My enfeebling magic (about 6/10) is low, but higher than what a rdm sub would be and my enfeebling spells are resisted over 1/2 the time. They cast pretty quick but it seems to be a waste of time since the effects rarely last for a significant amount of time even if they connect; so I just cast them to raise my skill. My elemental magic (7/10) is somewhat low but higher than my enfeebling. I usually do consistent, albit very low damage unless I use it in a MB.

[LegendaryFire]

thanks Tidane.

[shaunathan]

I suppose my question on this topic is which would give you more of a dex bonus subed? NIN, THF, or MNK? I'm working on getting ninja to begin testing this, I'll keep you posted but if someone else has tested please post.

[sonova]

i have tested it
and dex does absolutely nothing noticable for DRGs

you are better off with +acc items
i have posted this already several times


test and parse it for yourself if you dont believe me.

PS btw subbing THF is a waste of time for anything other than hardcore farming and even then ONLY if you spend your time farming mobs that you can steal mythril beastcoins from or multiple drops of expensive sellable loots

DRG/blm is the superior farmer with Aspir and access to the healer wyvern

DRG/ nin is a waste of time. only thing you really get from ninja is dual weild (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA) and blink ... but as a dragoon you wont need blink since you already have jumps

DRG/mnk is an even greater waste of time cause if you need the HP and chakra then something is seriously wrong with your playstyle. Concentrate does NOT > berserk

pls let this topic die ~

[shaunathan]

anyone who says pls is clearly NOT being polite, so why bother typing anything?

it would seem to me that WAR would be a waste of time because you are not a tank as a dragoon. You simply aren't.

[Ka1'E1]

Well I fail to see how saying pls isn't polite, maybe it is just me.

2nd War is a great sub since you better dmg output. Just because you have war sub doesn't mean you are tanking. Personally I bounce between my RDM sub and my War sub.

[SelfdestButton]

"it would seem to me that WAR would be a waste of time because you are not a tank as a dragoon. You simply aren't."

I'll politely enlighten you. Seems your logic is this: warrior = tanking class, so warrior subbed makes you a better tank. This is an easy line of thought to go down and many have been tempted to think like this. however, you need to realise that the only thing that makes a warrior a good tank is provoke, a defense bonus and innate vitality. These elements are important for a tank but it does not limit a warrior sub to this role. See, you forgot about berserk (better than the dark knight's last resort) and double attack. So a drg/rdm sounds like a dragoon with some funked up spell casting abilities, but the thing about this subjob thing is that it requires you to actually evaluate these advantages a sub brings to you. your using your enfeebling at half your normal level, and besides which you get nothing much that really enhances your main job's role. People have actually made this combo work apparently, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. But when it comes down to it, berserk and double attack don't lose their efficiency all the way to lvl 75, and theoretically, they'll still be good at lvl 99. How good do you think your half level enfeebling spells will be against lvl 75+ HNM's? It sounds bland, but face it. Warrior is one of the most, if not THE most useful sub for dragoon. That's basically it.

The joke is, I'm reiterating everyone else on the forum who know this from experience. Why does it have to be repeated?

(Does the ranger's accuracy bonus' affect physical attacks or just ranged attacks?)

[sonova]

anyone who says pls is clearly NOT being polite, so why bother typing anything?

it would seem to me that WAR would be a waste of time because you are not a tank as a dragoon. You simply aren't

when i'm being impolite you will know it

hi
do you even think before you post, or do you just pull random statements out of your arse? (<====| HI I AM BEING IMPOLITE OMG!~@~~)

what the hell makes you think warrior sub makes anyone a tank?

do you even know what abilities you get out of subbing warrior?

heres a clue

1) double attack
2) Berserk (+25% to your attk owns)
3) +1 attk up boost
4) +1 def up boost
5) Defensive


hi out of 5 abilities .... only 2 have anything to do with tanking

you sir have no clue about what you are talking about

but here is a little bit of education for you

our good friends at merriam webster have this to say:-

Main Entry: vi·a·ble
Pronunciation: 'vI-&-b&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: French, from Middle French, from vie life, from Latin vita -- more at VITAL
1 : capable of living; especially : capable of surviving outside the mother's womb without artificial support <the normal human fetus is usually viable by the end of the seventh month>
2 : capable of growing or developing <viable seeds> <viable eggs>
3 a : capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately <viable alternatives> b : capable of existence and development as an independent unit <the colony is now a viable state> c (1) : having a reasonable chance of succeeding <a viable candidate> (2) : financially sustainable <a viable enterprise>

now lets define adequately

Main Entry: ad·e·quate
Pronunciation: -kw&t
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin adaequatus, past participle of adaequare to make equal, from ad- + aequare to equal -- more at EQUABLE
1 : sufficient for a specific requirement <adequate taxation of goods>; also : barely sufficient or satisfactory <her first performance was merely adequate>
2 : lawfully and reasonably sufficient
synonym see SUFFICIENT

In the context of this discussion adequately means that your sub should be at least on par with the dominant archetypes. Almost all your suggestions dont even hold a candle to the dominant archetypes and so you sir are wasting not only your own time but the time off all those whom you misguidedly seek to enlighten

Stop confusing VIABLE with POSSIBLE. Be any damn sub you want just dont lie to yourself that its anywhere close to a viable alternative because as i have said earlier ppl with far far far more experience and analytical skill have already exhausted all the options long before you even became a dragoon.


(Does the ranger's accuracy bonus' affect physical attacks or just ranged attacks?)

I'm pretty sure its only ranged attacks so ranger is also pretty useless unfortunately

EDIT yes i know i left out provoke , but the argument still stands ... if you ever have to use it then your tank has serious issues

[shaunathan]

all in all I guess it is a moot point. I do have 30 levels of warrior, which will last quite a long time as a dragoon. heh.


Dex doesn't visibly affect a dragoon? hmm I wonder how much dex you actually get from a sub class...

[Hibiki]

double attack alone makes it worth subbing war for drg. When i pt w/ samurai, sam sometimes has trouble keeping up with me.

before 50, subbing thf, or a mage is fine, but after that, subbing thf just isn't worth trading off on double attack and berserk. sure sneak is fine, but the dmg you do from double attack and berserk completely outweighs sneak. if you do it for steal, then it shows you're a punk whos willing to gimp the pt for your own personal greed. a mage is fine for pre 50, maybe after that, only if your pt seriously sucks and needs help on the heals. I subbed rdm pre 40s when i'm in an NA party because frankly, they need it :rolleyes:

afterwards, you shoudlnt' really be pting w/o a rdm so they take care of that debuffing fine.

PS. I find it very sad that 60% of the threads in drg topic are all about people who feel like they must go against the crowd and sub something laughable.

[Weezingpipes]

Dex doesn't visibly affect a dragoon? hmm I wonder how much dex you actually get from a sub class...

While the 2 statements are semi unrelated, there are websites with this info, here is one :

http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~nhart/charstat1.html

It is a stat calculator. Plug in race, main job, sub job and specify level and it tells you the base stats for that main job level/sub job level for whatever job combo. Even by 75 the difference in DEX for say DRG/WAR vs DRG/THF is 2 - in other words, mostly negligable.

As mentioned, dex is nice, but accuracy is so much better. Presently at level 60 and +27 accuracy I'm having difficulty landing all 5 hits on Penta Thrust consistantly (generally between 3-5) and a meager amount of dex won't do much to supplement this. Accuracy is important to all melee jobs, literally the only job who might care about DEX any significant amount is THF.

Oh, and why DEX doesn't matter as much : you can load up on DEX crap, your crit rate won't be that much higher considering everyone misses a fair bit at high levels and the only way around this really is better accuracy, so more crits won't compensate the fact you simply don't hit as much.

[shaunathan]

EDITED/REMOVED unrelated Quote ::~ Osaka ~


I'm sorry sonofva, you lack the rationale needed to carry on an intellegent debate. you've been warned for flaming before. If you can't post poigently don't post at all, especially on my posts. A liberal use of the "search" function has yielded all the information I've needed on this subject so this post truely is moot. thanks to those who kept a level head, your thoughts are appreciated.

[Ka1'E1]

odd I don't see what was quoted, and if it was a PM it should have stayed that way.

[shaunathan]

click on view warnings under sonova's name, click on the first post he was warned about. since he said "as for the rest of you" I am to believe it was not a PM to someone.

[Kailea]

Thank you shaunathan ^.^ You where very nice in giveing me this info :p I will go over all the info from both posts and see what I come up with............but I am still thinking about what that Japanese DRG said about subing WHM ^.^ he said that is really does work well you just have to use the right equipment to back it up

[Osaka]

I dont see need to close this thread as of yet, but dont quote others from other threads that are unrelated. This almost equates to flaming/slander as you are intentionally trying to discredit him with an unrelated post. This does not help either parties.

No warning points awarded.

Osaka~

[SelfdestButton]

Despite sonova's tendency to flame, he is very, VERY right. His lack of "rationale" actually has much more base than anything you've said so far, simply because it's based on actuall data. His points aren't moot because he called you an idiot twenty times in his post.

Hope you've checked that stat calculator that was posted. If you haven't, here it is anyways. diffference between a DRG/WAR and a DRG/THF in DEX at lvl 75 is TWO. That's 1 extra accuracy. And thief is one of the most dex intensive classes in the game. You don't take a sub for it's stats. for the most part they make little to no difference. It's the abilities.

DRG/MNK is a stupid combo unless MAYBE you wanted to use it until lvl 30 (when you get berserk). It's not "new and interesting", it's sub-par.

One more thing. You could make a WHM/BLM/MNK sub "work" for dragoon with good equipment, but it doesn't change the fact that you don't need to make a DRG/WAR or a DRG/SAM work. It just does. Assuring yourself otherwise is voluntary self-retardation.

[shaunathan]

Kailea got the information she needed so I can now abondon this thread, I just didn't think it was fair that her thread got locked before she got that information.

[Carbon]

She wasn't seeking information.

She was seeking approval, which she did not generally receive, but then again, it would appear she doesn't care.

[Kailea]

No I got the info I wanted and yes I did care, but some poeple turned it into a job combo battle when all I wanted was there thoughs on the matter, witch after a wile I did collect the info I needed, and decided to go DRG/WHM instead so I could be a backup healer that does mager damage as well, and dont tell me that it does not work because I talked to a Japanese that that is doing it right now and he says he has no problems getting paties or doing his part in the party. So I am going to try it out and see for myself ^.^

[SelfdestButton]

I don't know why I'm saying this. Perhaps it' my duty to humanity or something.

Kailea; this was the gist of that argument.

Kailea: I wanna do a drg/pld! What do you guys think?

Everyone else: It would be horrible.

Kailea: No it wouldn't! You don't need to be 100% effective! (quote)

Everyone else: You do if you want a PT.

Kailea: SHUT THE HELL UP!

Everyone else: You're an idiot.

[Corin Gedaliah]

Originally posted by Kailea-D
but some poeple turned it into a job combo battle when all I wanted was there thoughs on the matter

Kailea, YOU turned it into a job combo battle when you posted this:

Originally posted by Kailea-D
Ok then tell me this, squair them selves says that WAR/PLD works great, so why would DRG/PLD be any diffrent? Oh and I found out the perks of PLD/DRK, you get a PLD with almost the same atk and def.

Please, stop acting like some kind of martyr.

[Kailea]

Look..........when some on comes up with there opinion about something there are only two ways to answer, no saying anything at all or giveing your oposing opinion in a nice polite way...........but some of you dont do that so you get lashed at when you say something, and that is what is happening here and it is what happened in my other thread...........and if you cant answer my questions without being mean to me or calling me names or saying I am stupid, then just dont post at all, so just stop now and leave the subject dead.

[SelfdestButton]

"No I got the info I wanted and yes I did care, but some poeple turned it into a job combo battle when all I wanted was there thoughs on the matter,"

"Look..........when some on comes up with there opinion about something there are only two ways to answer, no saying anything at all or giveing your oposing opinion in a nice polite way...........but some of you dont do that so you get lashed at when you say something, and that is what is happening here and it is what happened in my other thread..........."

It's difficult to debate with someone who is oblivious to their own contradictions, isn't it? I reply out of supreme contempt by the way, not to teach you something.

[Kailea]

It's difficult to debate with someone who is oblivious to their own contradictions, isn't it? I reply out of supreme contempt by the way, not to teach you something.

SelfdestButton you are just trying to start something with me now and you know what, I am going to play your sick little game, those two quote you took from my posts do not contradic each other at all, you are some little man that is just trying to start something with me and I am going to end it right here.

[Carbon]

Kalea, to be perfectly honest, most people (not all, admittedly) answered your last thread in a relatively nice, polite way at first.

But you continued to ignore everything they said saying "nooo...my way is still best" despite the fact that everyone pretty much explained to you a thousand times why it's not "best".

You asked for thoughts. People gave you thoughts. Some were negative in attitude, but they were still valid thoughts. Just because they contradict what you personally think is best does not render them invalid.

That is why I said you werern't looking for information. You pretty much ignored or refused to admit anyone who disagreed with you, and flattered and said "Thank you" to anyone who remotely agreed you back.

That's not asking for thoughts. That's asking for sycophancy.

Once again, i repeat my "thoughts" on your proposals:

DRG/PLD:
- You have more defense, but you aren't a tank, and you can't tank without voke anyways. So your defense is meaningless unless you're soloing. You can't wear plate or chain armor anyways. A DRG shouldn't be taking hits in a party.

- You can heal, but your mp pool will be very very low. Nowhere near enough to act as a secondary healer in a party.

PLD/DRK:
- You have more offense than a typical PLD. But RNGs, DRKs, DRGs, MNKs, THFs, BLMs will still outdamage you.

- You sacrifice what a PLD does best - to tank - to gain a marginal bonus in what a PLD doesn't do very well to begin with - attack. It's like reducing your best asset by 90% while increasing your poor asset by maybe 10%. Essentially, you're losing a lot to gain a little.

There. Don't tell me THAT was not polite.

[SelfdestButton]

So my "game" was to throw baseless insults at me? You seem to know alot about my height and health for someone who's never met me.

I guess "ending" a debate is to call them sick and little too. I'll keep that in mind next time I come up with a bad idea, propose it, have it shot down, and then refuse to listen to any and all reason.

By the way, I'm 5'11 and 156 lbs. Last time I checked I was pretty healthy, as opposed to someone who seems to have an IQ that could be counted on one hand, and exhibits obssesive compulsive behavior on par with most retards. I think that "ends" it pretty soundly, don't you think?

(Tell you what. ignore the flame, and listen to some sound advice in that thread you started. Most of it's pretty good, even if it is negative.)

[Kailea]

You know SelfdestButton you and Weezingpipes are the rudest people I know here, atleaset to me the only reason I stared with you two is because you first started it with me, everyone lese gave ther opinions very nice and clearly, but you two have to, for some reason insult me and call me a stupid wile you tell me it is a horible idea, that is why I dont like you two at all! There was never any reason for you two to ever instult me, all you had to do was leave your opinon and that was it, Weezingpipes has left me alone and you need to as well, and even now you insult my intelegence just because I have a diffrent opinon then you do.

and Carbon yes that was polit and when I say rude I was mainly refering to these two here that seem to think I am stupid, and I was not arguing with the others about how my job combos are best I was just saying that they are not pointless, every job combo has its one advantage that no other combo has, I just feel that even though others say it will not work, and even have proof of it, you should still atleast give it a try before dismissing it yourself.

[Weezingpipes]

I wasn't responding actually because I found having a conversation with the loaf of bread was having better success than discussions with you. And it isn't that we insult you for having a different opinion, have all the different opinions that you want, but I'm always interested in the why of things. I mean I read things which people give assorted reasons for that I may not agree with, weigh out the merits and downsides mentally, and then respond or apply the information to my own game play if I found something to be a good idea.

The problem is you come asking for opinions and just say "well I'm doing what I want anyway", then have a temper tantrum when people explain to you why you are wrong or why x whatever is simply ineffective which makes you look unintelligent, hence the comments insulting your intelligence (sorry my knack for pointing out the obvious gets the best of me). Why have a discussion then? Even the loaf of bread knows that, and its a loaf of bread.

And not to sound like a 5 year old, but you started it. You go off on your "well who says you need to be effective 100% of the time" and "people are going to be left behind for not being inventive blah blah blah" - by the way thats implying people using proven effective methods are in fact less intelligent than people being "creative", and all you have to say in response is it can work. Well yea, I can go to my mog house right now and switch my sub job to anything because the game allows me to. It is just pointing out an obvious game mechanic which is irrelevant to the discussion, because you aren't actually giving valid reasonings as to why something is or is not effective.

Oh, and no, not every combo has an advantage that another combo does not. Well I'm sorry you are right, but lets talk about what is relevant and what doesn't matter in regard to that - yes a DRG/PLD has more DEF than a DRG/SAM or DRG/WAR or whatever but does it matter, why no it does not. You know what I think? You haven't actually tried these combos to see that they are in fact ineffective, just pointless trolling during commercials between soaps.

Anyway back to the loaf of bread.

[Osaka]

I believe that's quite enough from all of you. This thread has gone far off topic and is starting toward flaming so Im closing it here.