I heard Rangers are one of the most if not the most powerful damage dealing class in this game. However, is it a one time deal or do they do consistent high damage? How is their damage compared to lets say a dark knight, samurai, or a ninja.

By the way, do their WS moves look really cool? Any information or pictures of rangers would be greatly appreciated. I'm pretty new to this game but the job is really appealing to me.

What are the pros/cons?

Just an example from my playtime last night...

Fighting an IT maze maker in Shakrami:

Blackmage does aero for 33 dmg
Blackmage does fire for anywhere from 4 - 44dmg
Ranger shoots iron arrow for 50 dmg
Ranger uses Piercing Arrow weaponskill for 90 dmg
Ranger uses 2-hour Eagle Eye Shot for 275 dmg

Unfortunately, the ranger also happens to miss quite a bit. ;)

That's just a little example from a ranger in the lower levels (15 at that time). I forgot some of my past damage ratios from beta, but I'll try to remember em or find em. But yes, rangers do a helluva lot of damage.

Cometgreen

Awesome..any more comments?

But if you have bad eqipment it will look more like this:

Blackmage does aero for 33 dmg
Blackmage does fire for anywhere from 4 - 44dmg
Ranger shoots iron arrow ,but miss
Ranger uses Piercing Arrow weaponskill ,but miss
Ranger uses 2-hour Eagle Eye Shot ...... But miss

So the key for a ranger that want to deal good damage is--->
-----> eqipment

:)

Just a quick question, if the 2 hour makes your damage that much higher, how much does sidewinder or slug shot do with every possible powerup concievable.

Eagle Eye+Berserk+meat mithkabob+Hellfire+Cannon Shell= ____

I know most of you probably can't use cannon shell and Hellfire or even do this for the sake of your party but I was just wondering. Most damage I have seen was 31XX in that weapon skills video that StarvingArtist made.

can u post a link to that video by starving artist please?

Eagle Eye doesn't increase the damage of your next attack, it is an attack. And I don't think it can miss (you can be outside of activation range though, and doing that will waste it).

Spider, it can miss =p

Anyway...

At higher levels, if you keep buying the best equipment you can (within reason... strider boots aren't), your damage will steadily increase ~ Even against ITs.

For instance.

I was in a lv 40 PT fighting Flies in Gustav Tunnel. Each of my arrows (Meat Miths + Berserk) did about 175 damage. Piercing Arrow about 350. And Barrage (Which is the equivalent of Eagle Eye Shot when it hits its mark) did about 750 damage.

Oh, and I had about a 90% hit rate =)

(^ Bards own )

I don't think Eagle Eye Shot is a equivalent to Barrage, Barrage owns Eagle Eye Shot.

At 50 and beyond, yeah, because an extra arrow is added to barrage.

yea really eagle is no where close to barrage. its sad that barrage is a 5 min ability and yet it all most does the same damage as eagle. Hehe FeralisCallidus have u tried a gun in gustav? i did 891 with one barrage there lmao. Rangers own there lvl 37-43.

Anything that flies = Ranger food.

I don't use guns, they aren't strong until lv 50 ~

I BELIEVE that the 890 dmg was probably from multiple critical hit bullets, unless you did it consistantly.

Just so you know Hellfire can't fire Cannon shell I just tried it wont equip it prolly need culverin.

EES is nice instant damage, doesnt have to be more than barrage.

RNG is really strong yes, but it comes at a price ~.^

im a lvl 51 rng. at lower levels we miss alot,but when we hit we do alot of damage. rng is the most damage dealing melee class hands down. eagle eye shot is rngs 2 hour ability. yes it can miss but ive never seen that happen. depending on mob it can do major damage. at lvl 40 i eagle eye shot lumbering lambert he went from half to dead when i did 1185 dmg. ive EES to weaks for over 2600 dmg. flying mobs are weak to rngs. this can be a very fun class. but you really should have another class leveled up so that you can farm. there just is no way to explain how expensive this class is, not trying to scare you away, just letting you know you pay for damage with gil. always keep crossbow (marksmanship) leveled as well as your bow. guns rock but are extremely expensive, when you pay 8k for 99 bullets.

Well none of my EES missied, not even in the Promvron-Holla BCNM (0/5)

But it's true, RNG is a very expensive job, a level (up to50) can easly cost about 10k/level to 15k/level.

As for the bullets, thats why i level alchemy and Goldsmithing up to the silver bullet type ;)

And yes, you need another higher Level Job, either to farm for money or farm for ingredients for crafting. At the moment i earn good money from selling Cooking Stuff, but i'm a hunter i have to kill mob ;)

And yes, you need another higher Level Job, either to farm for money or farm for ingredients for crafting.

No you don't, I've been doing good since NA release using my RNG main for farming to support my costs.

At the risk of my own humiliation.. i post this.

http://www.apby07.dsl.pipex.com/clp780.jpg

:sweat:

@Negorath: i really like to grab some silver coins from the beastmens and with my high eva from the THF i won't get hit too often. Also i get more items with TH2, but that's another discusion ;)

@Corrado: öhm, what level where your party there?
It looks like that Weapon was a Very High Evasion one.

And was that noob for you?

I found this as leveldescription.
Decorative Weapon (WAR) lv75-80

I wonder why our 2hr is such horrid damage though. As a damage-intensive job, shouldn't they have given us a better 2hr? Well, maybe that would make us too overpowered (we're strong enough as it is), but EES is only good at low levels. As you get higher and higher, its usefulness diminishes greatly. I still think the best DD 2hr in the game is SAM's, with MNK's following closely. My friend's SAM/RNG took off nearly half of Ose's life with his 2hr alone... I think he does something like Sidewinder -> Sidewinder (Reverb) -> Yukikaze (Induration) -> Sidewinder or Gekko (Fragmentation) -> Kasha (Light) -> Barrage -> Hit -> Sidewinder.... it's pretty nuts. Sure puts Eagle Eye Shot in its place :sweat:

And Negorath is right. I know some good high level RNG's who have it as first job (other than 1st job to unlock RNG). Sure, they have to farm some more to get good gear, but as long as they put a lot of effort into farming, they can be good RNG as well.

RNG is brokenly good. It's the damage dealing job that puts all DD job to shame. It's the reason the rest of the DD class sit in Jeuno waiting for invites. Honestly, if you have the patience to farm/camp NM, there's no reason to not go RNG. The time it takes the RNG to farm enough gil for arrows is roughly the same time all the DD class sit in Jeuno with flag up. The difference is once the RNG is done farming arrows, he'll get an invite to pt within a minute of putting his flag up, while the rest are still waiting. IMO a team of Tank/RNG/DRK/BRD/BLM/RDM is hands down the best exp team in the later levels. It gets no better.

I agree RNG is brokenly good. I'm confused by your PT assessment though. Why do you need BLM or DRK if you're talking about optimal PT?

I've parsed quite a few of my last PT's lately. I always do around 2x as much damage as a well equipped DRK or BLM. In my NIN/3RNG/BRD/WHM PT last night, we made 4.2k xp in 30 minutes... and this was with me nerfing xp since I was 59 and everyone else was 57-58. Also, the other 2 RNG didn't have e-bow, so I did 150% as much damage as them (yes, e-bow makes that much of a difference, I can post the parsing if you want). So if all 3 RNG had e-bow, we probably could have got 5k xp/30 minutes, if we didn't run out of things to kill.

Some friends I know do 4 RNG PT, and that might be best, if all RNG are equally equipped so they can pass hate around. That might get tiring on the BRD though, having to juggle 4 hunter's preludes... I personally like having an initial tank to keep hate while the RNG build tp, then everyone sidewinder / barrage when the monster has 50-65% HP.

my rng set pt is so win...
rng rng rng rng rng rdm/war lol..
grav -> voke and run while we kill it

Parsers are incomplete. They don't see damage from Bio, Poison, elemental enfeebles, and don't take into account the effect of absorbs; even Drain is often counted for the wrong amount (the log shows how much HP the caster gained, which is often less then the amount the monster lost). Skillchain damage is usually counted wrong too (just because *monsters* are stupid enough to think that the closer did the whole SC by himself, doesn't mean that players should duplicate the error). Avatars and wyverns are often not counted at all (either the person who recorded the log had them filtered, or the parser doesn't understand how to count them).

If you just studied parsers, you'd conclude that BRD is worthless; it does pathetic damage and hardly heals anyone either. And RDM isn't much better; what's that "Refresh" spell that doesn't seem to do anything? A parser could theoretically estimate damage prevented by Paralyze or Slow, but I don't know any that even try. And how do you evaluate the value of being hit for 50 damage instead of letting someone else be hit for 150? The game is far more complex than any existing parser, and most jobs contribute something besides raw damage or healing. RNG is one of the few jobs that the parser can actually see and understand everything it's doing (except pulling - another important factor in a party's success that parsers can't understand), so of course it looks better *to the parser*. That doesn't mean it actually contributes more to the party's overall success.

A not-too-complicated example: BLM casts Choke and Burn, DRK casts Absorb-VIT and -INT, BRD casts Madrigal, Minuet, INT Etude and Threnody, SAM and DRK do a skillchain, BLM magic bursts. How much damage should be credited to each of those party members? The methods used by all parsers I know of are not just wrong, but *obviously* wrong; but it's too complicated to figure out the "correct" amounts (in some cases, the formulas aren't even known), so the obviously wrong method is used because it is simpler.


Anyway, RNG can be good, but their accuracy is inconsistent even when well equipped (against ITs, at least), which is especially trouble for skillchains. (Maybe this improves with Prelude, but you know how rare bards are.) And they can't work with thieves well - they often can't even afford to provoke to set up SATA (if they sub war at all), let alone have it done on them the way WAR, MNK, SAM can. And then there's their tendency to screw up hate control, and sometimes move a dangerous AOE user toward your fragile backline - RNG could really *really* use some major -enmity gear, but I don't think they get much if any. There are definite downsides to rangers, along with their big damage numbers.

If you've already got all the defensive, support and utility roles covered - i.e. you have a tank, a WHM, a BRD, a RDM, a BLM, and a DRK - then your party is full and you have no room to invite a RNG anyway. In fact, I stopped at 6 and left out the SAM for more skillchains, the WAR for Warcry and backup tanking, the THF for hate control. You always have to leave out *some* support/utility contributions that other jobs could have made (RDM+BRD parties should probably leave out the WHM against most mobs, particularly if the tank is a PLD), but if you invite a ranger which provides very little other than damage, then you get less of jobs with a support component, which may or may not be worth the tradeoff. MNK, another excellent raw damage dealer, has this problem too; but at least they can be secondary tank for a THF.

Karinya a lot of that is true, and looked over by many people. As for thf and rng though, in higher end PTs it's much better to not have a start off SA+TA, because you kill so fast thatSA+TA will not be ready in time to kill the mob from skillchain.

Best situations with thf and rng is the following, I did this as thf and it helped immensely. Rng pulls mob, Thf also goes out for the pull. Thf pulls out weapons and hits monster all the way back to camp, usually you will not steal hate from the rng, and the monster still follows back to camp after rng. this helps thf get maybe 20-50% tp just on the pull. For thieves that want to try this, you have to draw weapons, and on your screen run in front of the monster to actually hit it. We all know about server latency and mobs not being where they really are on your screen, hence why you cant swing at a monster when chasing it.

anyways, thf has already 50%ish~ tp, and rng has no problem getting tp quickly. tank vokes and proceeds like normal, rng stands behind monster, thief behind tank. rng starts skillchain, mob turns, thief finishes skillchain with monster being safely tricked back on tank, mage burst, monster dead. Really no time for initial fuidama and it helps thieves not be so gimp in exp PTs. on the other hand, i dont know any other thieves that do this, so i dont like to invite thieves as my rng lol (this "trick " is all post-sidewinder ~.^) multiple rng pts for me plz^^

Karinya, I agree with you, but I think we are on two different pages here. First of all, I was never saying that parsers tell you what job is *best*. I am talking about pure DD's. Parsers will tell you how much damage you are doing, taking, in melee, ranged, skillchains, etc. I agree BRD, RDM, etc won't look great in parsers... but so what? I know that :p I'm not saying a 6RNG PT would be the omg best in the entire game anyway.

Originally posted by Karinya
They don't see damage from Bio, Poison, elemental enfeebles, and don't take into account the effect of absorbs; even Drain is often counted for the wrong amount (the log shows how much HP the caster gained, which is often less then the amount the monster lost).
You're absolutely correct that parsers do not count DoT spells well. But are you saying that DoT spells are making up for all the damage they are doing less than a RNG? That would be implying that you are doing as much damage in DoT as with direct damage, if the RNG is doing 2x the amount of damage as a BLM or DRK.

Next, I agree that every DD job has other uses than just pure DD. DRK, for example, has absorbs, THF can obviously manage hate, DRG can be a good trick partner, has wyvern, and can drop hate, etc etc. However, in certain PTs, if you have enough RNG, their insane cumulative direct damage will overpower the need for any of those nuances other DD jobs bring. Why do we need any of those if we can just blast 3 sidewinders on a Peryton to bring it from 50% to 0% in 2 seconds?

Skillchain damage is usually counted wrong too (just because *monsters* are stupid enough to think that the closer did the whole SC by himself, doesn't mean that players should duplicate the error). Avatars and wyverns are often not counted at all (either the person who recorded the log had them filtered, or the parser doesn't understand how to count them).
The parser I have separates skillchain effect from other damage. And I never parsed anything with a DRG anyway.


Anyway, RNG can be good, but their accuracy is inconsistent even when well equipped (against ITs, at least), which is especially trouble for skillchains. (Maybe this improves with Prelude, but you know how rare bards are.)
My RNG ACC was over 90%. I think that's miles above any other DD. In fact, RNG has the best ACC of all DD's, since they have 4 acc up traits, and +rng acc gear is cheap and easy to obtain. The only "accuracy" issue is with ranged WS, but that isn't a problem if you just build tp a bit. Our BRD dropped for 30 minutes or more, and we still killed and chained raptors and perytons (with just 5 people) until he came back. Accuracy isn't an issue for RNG relative to other DDs.

And they can't work with thieves well - they often can't even afford to provoke to set up SATA (if they sub war at all), let alone have it done on them the way WAR, MNK, SAM can. And then there's their tendency to screw up hate control, and sometimes move a dangerous AOE user toward your fragile backline - RNG could really *really* use some major -enmity gear, but I don't think they get much if any. There are definite downsides to rangers, along with their big damage numbers.
Actually RNG work well with a THF if you want to make a conventional PT. Sidewinder -> SATA dancing edge is great, along with Arching Arrow -> SATA shark bite. Rng can pull, be secondary tank (while utsusemi eats initial hits) so THF can do first SATA onto the tank at start of battles. Also, I'm always at frontlines (melee damage is good for building tp, and also contributes well at 63 with francisca) so the latter point isn't really a problem.

Let me repeat, I never said parsers will show which jobs are best or not. However, when you are looking for DDs, that is exactly what you are looking for : damage. This is recorded in parsers.

SAM for skillchains, BLM for MBs, DRK for absorbs, etc etc... yes that is nice. But can that honestly make up for the crazy brute force damage a RNG puts out? In my experience, no. In all my parties as PLD, I never made more than 5k xp/hr unless I had multiple RNGs. With 2-4 RNG in a PT, 5k xp/hr is a low number; you can usually get much more, depending on spawn and competition.

It's all about the end product. Sure, all those other DDs may have something to contribute that a RNG cannot. But in the end, what PT setup kills faster with less downtime: i.e. more XP/hour? We're talking about fastest XP when we talk about an optimal PT right? And that definitely comes from multi-RNG PTs. Brute force wins over subtlety in this game.

P.S. Every RNG I get in multi-RNG PTs sub NIN. If I subbed WAR, I'd obviously do more damage, but I'd get even more hate, so I would have to hold back. Actually I would have to hold back a ton more, since I have no utsusemi to keep me alive, and thus mages would waste more MP healing me. RNG/NIN already get enough aggro (as can be seen by the amount of absorbs and damage I take in parsers... almost equivalent to our NIN tank), so I don't really see the point of RNG/WAR in this scenario (unless ill equipped). As a PLD, I only liked RNG/WAR if I had a THF or DRK/THF (post 66) for him to skillchain with. RNG/WAR is probably the most damaging job/subjob combo in the game in terms of brute force, but they would die too quickly in a PT without THF IMO, making them hold back, and losing all advantages /WAR sub would give.

NO RNG SUCK!!!1 go some other job like "The all powerful DRK!!!" or mayb a BLM! BLM MAJOR DD! i wana be a rare rng whos dmg is below a drk..:eek: :eek: :zzz:

Lets just dispel all the rumors right now... Rangers powerful?

I'm a 74 RNG I rarely post in forums... I can't play right now games down for me so Ill pull up some parsed info and post it here this is from monsters in lower kuftal tunnel and Im using a gun in a party full of rangers I'm half asleep not really using all my JA's just trying to push myself to ding 74... Monsters here have about 4000-5000 HP


Cayne 73/36(RNG/NIN) yes after i dinged 74 we ended the pt...
Average Damage: 1508.83

Stone 74/37 BLM/WHM a very good blm actually
Average Damage: 921.8

This is only after 30 fights in my parser...

I didn't pull big numbers or find a log that glorifies rangers in fact this log is lower than most of the logs I have because no one was using acid bolts for me Ive had parties with multiple rangers that use defense down bolts and you see fights where rangers do over 4000 dmg with this combo here:

Ranger TP (100) at start of fight from previous

puller pulls with acid bolt lowering mobs defense

Ranger uses barrage and sharpshot so sidewinder wont miss.. note: that when you use barrage the weaponskilll doesn't use ur barrage effect up the following shot does...

Slug Shot with Hellfire (1800-2300) dmg to flying mob) TP from 1 shot 17 - 18 Ranger TP now 18

ranged attack with barrage effect (1000 dmg or so) adds 90 TP so 108 total now

slug shot again (1800-2300 dmg) this whole time utsusemi ni is eating the hits and it doesnt really matter cuz this mob is dead

so whats the total damage about 4600-5600

and with sharpshot we dont miss often at higher levels also with AF pants its pretty good chance of hitting all those hits

also in all my time as a ranger ive seen 1 eagle eye shot miss and it was durring my Maat fight when i used a blink band and maat missed his Eagle Eye shot against me... I dont even think that should count

right, if youre hunting wyvernpoacher dont forget that EES is blinkable ^^b

Yep I get the same results as Cayne when I'm in a PT with non-RNG DD's. I've only been in two of those, and I forgot to save one of the parses. The one I forgot to save had a DRK and a BLM, and I did about 2x damage as both of them.

The one I remembered to save had PLD, THF, BLM, RNG, BRD, RDM:

http://www.saiyajin20.svhosting.net/10-15-2004.html

Oyuki - THF
Maynard - PLD
Pythian - BRD
Tojo - BLM
Lobonator - RDM

A well equipped RNG will do about 2x as much damage as a well equipped DRK or BLM from what I've seen. I really don't see how DoT's, absorbs, etc will make up for that brute force damage. I think it may change 66+ when we make more use of level 3 skillchains, but I know multi RNG PT's do very well at high levels as well (maybe Cayne can contribute more on this end).

Bah, I still see any overpowered problem coming from unlimited blink ability being gay (particularly post 74). Rangers Z rank evasion, low hp, and nonexistant defensive skills are perfectly (or at least relatively) covered for with the temporary invincibility blink provides to most attacks. I'm willing to bet BLM can lay down more damage until they run out of mp, they just can't sub ninja and pretend like they're not being attacked.

Fira has a nice workaround for it though, gravity + kite.

On another note, mostly blm parties are pretty scary too. The stuff you're fighting usually incinerates in the first or second volley of spells.

That's true too. 5 BLM+RDM PTs or 4 BLM+RDM+BRD PTs are crazy in action. So are 5 SMN + BRD PTs post 70. However, these are a lot harder to set up than 2-3 RNG PTs.

You're right... maybe a BLM can do more damage if they wanted to go all out. But you already stated the problem with this: they have no reliable defense. RNG can blink away the hate (even before 74 utsu: ichi is a good 6 shadows if used properly, enough for the tank to get hate back or for the multiple RNG to kill the enemy). The other problem is that BLM is limited by his MP. So what if the BLM goes all out in one battle to do slightly more damage than the RNG? You'll now have to wait a bit for the BLM to gain MP back, especially if he really did go all out. RNG don't need to wait for anything. The only reason we'd EVER need time between pulls is to recast utsusemi...

Also if you are talking about optimal high amounts of damage in a certain situation (in your case, BLM has lots of MP + won't die from getting hate), RNG still win. I doubt a BLM can do as much damage in the amount of time a RNG can do slugshot -> barrage with hellfire -> slugshot.

I'm not so sure how it would turn out with blm/rdm if they threw in their 2 hour. Some of those spells bust out some major pain.

Anycase, I always hate seeing these comparisons because blm's uses in party is rarely straight up raw damage. In "normal" parties you use them for heavy damage on command when the SC isn't ready, not to mention crowd control, back up healing, escape/teleport, spell interruption etc.

I know I know... RNG are the least versatile of the DD's. But I'm just speaking about brute force damage, and RNG win big time.

I agree you lose a lot if you do multi RNG, as in crowd control etc, but that can also be compensated since multi RNG PT only do well with a BRD.. and BRD = horde lullaby. But yeah you don't have escape if fit hits the shan, but in good parties this is a small price to pay. Multi RNG PT can still stall adds by pulling it with an arrow while blink is up to absorb some hits, running away then shadowbinding. Sleep bolts/arrows also work well if you spam it, although this isn't as efficient as having a mage just sleep it.

Anyways, I'm not exactly saying RNG is better than all other DD jobs in all ways, because like I said in a previous post, most other DD jobs have some unique element they bring to the table as well. However, I find it ridiculous to believe a 4 DRK + tank + support PT or 4 DRG + tank + support PT will be able to rake in 8k+ xp/hour. Like I said, it's all about the end item, and in the end I feel RNG wins the race.

I may be biased since I currently play a RNG, but this is how I felt after 74 levels of PLD as well, so I have experience playing in various different PT setups.

And one note about BLM 2hr: I agree it blows RNG 2hr out of the water :sweat:

i was in a pt with a JP rng. i used guillotine, an he used sidewinder. i was doing oddly enough about 600-750 on it. the rng was doing about the same. anyways what i noticed the rng doing every 3 minutes was cool.. after hed sidewinder. mob turn to him. i then cast stun long enough for rng to get back behind pld an use barrage. then pld would use cover.. nothing like watching the rng doing 800+ damage off a weapon skill, then hiding behind a pld for 300+ barrage damage..


rng's sometimes get over locked like drks do. nothing like a rng using def lowering arrows. so the other melee can take advantage off it. plus i dont see rngs spam arrows like the logs usually show. those i team u with keep it steady enough not to pull hate. but long enough to have the tp when you do..

imac2much: In a standard PT, RNG/DRK is the single best DD duo. Nothing kills shit faster on chain #5 than Arching > Spin > Barrage > Soul Eater lol. Guaranteed 5. But yeah, a PT of multiple RNG is stupidly good, but you don't see that everyday. And it's kinda dangerous too, considering one fuck up = dead RNG. But I agree, multiple RNG PT is the best.

And BLM because, since a team of RNG/DRK does so much damage on its own, the BLM would only need to nuke (and MB) when it's SC time. The rest of the time they can cure, freeing up a slot for RMD, cuz a WHM really isn't necessary in this format. BLM, BRD and PLD are more than enough curing. Though this PT requires everyone to be skilled and know exactly what to do.

and also to imac2much: RNG may do 2x the damage then DRK at your level, but come level 65+, the gap between the 2 is a lot closer. SA/TA+Spin = :biggrin:

on sunday I was in a nin/rng/rng/rng/rng/rng pt ( 6th rng came after blm left) with semitry as nin and flufflykitty was another rng, forgot who the other ppl were, 2 using xbows 3 using bows,
in Gar. Cit on bats we(well I got) did 11,307 exp in a hour and 15 min, every rng was rng/nin, with the few beetles that we killed the avg hiot rate on beetles was 45-61 while on bats it was 86-115, with the hate passing around and basically no one taking dmg a large amount of time I keep thinking this is too good to be true, and will never see anything like this again
Only downside was biting the dust leaving, with tonko up a stink still attacked me from a distance, thought they arggo via site :mad:

Haha truong, at first I thought you were saying the job combo RNG/DRK, and I just had a big :confused: on my face. But I agree, RNG + DRK/THF is great post 66... in fact as a PLD I always liked RNG/WAR + DRK/THF in these kinds of PTs. SATA Spin does so much tricked damage, esp with the light bonus, that RNG can go all out and not worry about aggro. RNG/NIN can't always turn the mob from a good PLD, so RNG/WAR is best in this case.

I agree with lvl 3 skillchains the differences will become a lot smaller, but the differences will still exist. At high levels I guess it depends on what you're xping on, since obviously MNKs will outdamage RNG by far in KRT. But for the majority of the game, I'd say levels 1 ~ 65 definitely, a well equipped RNG will always do significantly more damage than another DD. I won't speak for 66+ since as PLD I don't always keep all my damage filters off, but I do notice we killed things a lot faster in multi RNG PTs, even taking into account the fact we didn't use lvl 3 skillchains. It sucks when the DRK/THF with optihat, hauberk, 2xsnipers, thick set still struggles to get 100% TP in one battle (and I have 150-200% TP by the time he has 100%). By the time a DRK/THF has 100%, the RNG could potentially have 300%... meaning at least 2 sidewinders. Food for thought.

wstussyb, yeah, those levels are the easiest to get high xp. That was the only place I got consistent 300 xp chain 5 and 6's before the patch (the one that increased possible xp... but then again at that level 300 is still the max). 2 RNGs can basically duo those IT garliage bats, NIN isn't needed whatsoever. Honestly the best PT would probably be 5 RNG + BRD for some paeon and healing, since you just pass the hate around. I'm not surprised you got so much xp there... not to mention single bat types are the easiest monster types in the game IMO even for non RNG. After a while you lose the chance to xp on those though... :(

Theres been a lot discussed since I posted last so I'll cover some of it for now...

Comment: BLM do more dmg than rng if they go all out on a fight
ok we're assuming all JA's and MP are full so to be fair the ranger has all JAs and TP full and we can run through this. I can't say much about the blm but the ranger does the hat trick combo I posted earlier for at least 3500 dmg (sidewinder barrage sidewinder) usually doesn't leave the mob with much left. 4 more shots and a 3rd slug shot can be fired. But the mob is dead unless the only DD in the party is the RNG similarly the BLM can do fireIV blizagaIII and aeroIII for like 2500 dmg and prolly even another aga spell for 3500 to match the ranger though i doubt he can get all 4 spells off in the time it takes to fire 2 slugshots and 1 barrage.
However some monsters rangers just arent the best choice for namely skeletons but I fought aquarius and it was rediculous how low my damage was because of his incredible defense i mabye did 1/4 my normal damage. I'm sure a BLM would trounce me on that fight. Just know where your pt is going and make the best choice from who is available to pt (isn't that what we all do anyway?) If you are really torn between the two jobs pick BLM its cheaper to level and you probably get just as many invites.

As for Multi-ranger parties: I seem to have an addiction for them and I still throw a BLM into the parties from time to time when i feel I dont have enough DD i've never tried more than 4 rangers though but the best pt Ive had in a long time was RNG RNG RNG RNG BRD WHM (a bard really compliments rangers well) I really think when using rangers at high levels a tank is optional for two reasons 1. If your DD are doing their job the tank can't get hate off you. 2. Utsusemi
This party configuration was a lot of fun because you can do lots of damage and it felt a bit risky with no tank and it takes an hour or so to get used to. In my experience rangers are always looking for other rangers to pt with.

Originally posted by imac2much
But for the majority of the game, I'd say levels 1 ~ 65 definitely, a well equipped RNG will always do significantly more damage than another DD.
Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it. (note: From 30-32 a gun RNG would probably outdamage THF.)

This assumes a party where THF is allowed to do max damage. Specifically, I mean a party with a good tank (one that doesn't need SATA to do their job). In these parties, THF can drop two SA(+TA) in the first 30 seconds or so (one on tank, one on other DD), and it's really hard for any other DD to overcome that huge lead.

One might argue that that is "defeating" THF's purpose as hate controller, but ultimately, hate control is only useful if it results in faster exp. If THF SATAs on both tank and DD, then they essentially cancel out (from a hate generation standpoint) and the Tank:DD dynamic is just like a normal non-THF party.

Hate generation at that point is of course, irrelivant because the mob is dead :D

But yeah, setup properly a good Thf is probably king from 30 to at 49 or so.

Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game

It's statements like this that make me avoid reading forums entirely... Most of these people spend so much time in the forums they never play the actual game.

That quote above is pretty strong considering how often SATA fails because of lag or some moron in the party not paying attention or not doing his job.

Q:How often in a party does the DD take hate off the tank at the start of a fight?
A:ALL THE TIME. Oh I'm sorry Mr. Thf you wanted to do Piercing arrow >> Viper Bite? OK oops ur SA attack failed because I took hate with Piercing arrow... thats ok next time stand behind the tank and when I take hate you can SATA him... ooops that time I didn't do enough damage and you wasted your SA.... Oh that time you waited too long after my WS to ready SATA.... Oh that time I missed my piercing arrow... Oh that time the Pld moved to cover the WHM... That time the 3rd DD used his WS and botched it... see my point? This happens all the time at lower levels by the time it stops RNG have Sidewinder (after sidewinder RNG take the lead easily).

You would have tp hit your SATA nearly 100% of the time to compare to a ranger's damage even then its gonna be a close call. And if you are XPing against flying monsters (like rangers SHOULD do) you won't parse more damage. NOTE: Flying mobs take almost double dmg from ranged attacks. (for those who didn't know) A thf can use ranged attack too but they will miss a lot more than a RNG because of gear bonuses and they won't hit as hard either.

THF make great support characters for a party I'd love to see a THF use Acid bolts for me so I wouldn't have to switch weapons and loose TP. THF skillchains are awsome and the extra treasure is nice especially if you fight HNMs. I wonder how many people realise that the only reason they have that scorpion harness, nobles tunic or whatever is because a thf was in their alliance and that venomous claw/shinning cloth(etc) wouldn't have dropped otherwise.

I love a good thf some of the best players in midgarsormyr play thf and they have earned quite aname for themselves and have strong followings. But I don't feel they were meant to be primarily damage dealers and the fact you even posted that probably means you didn't play your ranger properly.

Guess that should've been prefaced by
"If you're in a good party, and your thief is good"

Daggers get the same piercing damage attribute that arrows do I believe.

It dosen't mean that the thf will always win, but I've certainly seen it happen. It's even more likely if you have semi sporadic pulls. Thf starts fight off with a 350 sata, By the time ranger starts to catch up and actually beat that damage, the thf has the tp to throw down a 450-550 viper bite.

Originally posted by Cat
It's statements like this that make me avoid reading forums entirely... Most of these people spend so much time in the forums they never play the actual game.

That quote above is pretty strong considering how often SATA fails because of lag or some moron in the party not paying attention or not doing his job.

Q:How often in a party does the DD take hate off the tank at the start of a fight?
A:ALL THE TIME. Oh I'm sorry Mr. Thf you wanted to do Piercing arrow >> Viper Bite? OK oops ur SA attack failed because I took hate with Piercing arrow... thats ok next time stand behind the tank and when I take hate you can SATA him... ooops that time I didn't do enough damage and you wasted your SA.... Oh that time you waited too long after my WS to ready SATA.... Oh that time I missed my piercing arrow... Oh that time the Pld moved to cover the WHM... That time the 3rd DD used his WS and botched it... see my point? This happens all the time at lower levels by the time it stops RNG have Sidewinder (after sidewinder RNG take the lead easily).

You would have tp hit your SATA nearly 100% of the time to compare to a ranger's damage even then its gonna be a close call. And if you are XPing against flying monsters (like rangers SHOULD do) you won't parse more damage. NOTE: Flying mobs take almost double dmg from ranged attacks. (for those who didn't know) A thf can use ranged attack too but they will miss a lot more than a RNG because of gear bonuses and they won't hit as hard either.

THF make great support characters for a party I'd love to see a THF use Acid bolts for me so I wouldn't have to switch weapons and loose TP. THF skillchains are awsome and the extra treasure is nice especially if you fight HNMs. I wonder how many people realise that the only reason they have that scorpion harness, nobles tunic or whatever is because a thf was in their alliance and that venomous claw/shinning cloth(etc) wouldn't have dropped otherwise.

I love a good thf some of the best players in midgarsormyr play thf and they have earned quite aname for themselves and have strong followings. But I don't feel they were meant to be primarily damage dealers and the fact you even posted that probably means you didn't play your ranger properly.

why are you so offended with what he says?

he's pretty much right. at least from 15-20 as i've lvl'd my drk, thf's do some serious damage with sneak attack - i'd say so far they do the most damage. they're definitely up there so far and it was quite suprising to see this first hand.

he did state that it was his opinion, he did state with a good tank... and you jump all over him and get all defensive.... its almost like you took what he said as a personal attack.

settle down, beavis. :sweat:

which is why the rng is subbing /war if they pt with thieves...

piercing arrow/sidewinder doesn't turn mob? Voke it.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it. (note: From 30-32 a gun RNG would probably outdamage THF.)

This assumes a party where THF is allowed to do max damage. Specifically, I mean a party with a good tank (one that doesn't need SATA to do their job). In these parties, THF can drop two SA(+TA) in the first 30 seconds or so (one on tank, one on other DD), and it's really hard for any other DD to overcome that huge lead.


Hm... overall, I can see where you're coming from. However, so many disclaimers have to be slapped on this setup that it's almost irrelevant.

I agree that THF can be a pretty good DD at low-mid levels *if* they set up SATA correctly and efficiently every fight (i.e. use SATA before monster comes so he can hit it, then immediately SATA again). I think at these levels SATA does around 250-300 and SATA viper does 400-500 right? (my numbers might be a bit off) Considering how RNG WS primarily suck at these levels and barrage is only 4 arrows max, I can see how a properly played THF with a smart PT can occasionally outdamage RNG.

However, this requires not only a good THF, tank, and other members (not to turn the mob at the wrong moments), but SATA also has a one minute timer. In my multi RNG PTs in Garlaige, we pull so fast that often times we were fighting 2 monsters at a time, or the 2nd monster would be available right after 1st monster dies (due to puller leaving early). In this case SATA won't always be ready, and from what I've seen, in hectic pulling parties (which are the best IMO), RNG will usually outdamage THF.

Anyway I can see where you're coming from, but I sure haven't experienced it. And the higher level you get, the DD capabilities of THF decrease noticeabily with respect to other jobs, so I guess the point is moot at later game anyway. I have some great friends who are THF, but I don't see much point using a THF post 66 than a DRK/THF esp. with a PLD tank. Maybe THF is still better than DRK/THF post 66 with NIN tank, but with PLD, THF seems to get the short end of the stick.

In closing I think THF may be as damaging as RNG with certain conditions, but it's so situational, which is probably why they don't get the credit you think they deserve.

I don't really Pt much with thf's but even at 60 a drk/thf using soul eater + guillotine tricked onto me followed by sidewinder/slug shot makes a mob dead, and I can actually get hate back after the sidewinder in that situation if the mob didn't die for some reason.

:spin:

Anyways to address the original topic, yes rangers are that powerful, given enough pulls having a good rng is the diff between a 4k hr pt and a 7k+ hr pt

In a party with a /THF (which I usually end up in a LOT). I've had RNG/NIN with me being RNG/WAR and really if you want to see insaine damage RNG/WAR is definatly it. A RNG/NIN just can't obtain that damage a RNG/WAR pulls off so easily.

BCNMs are great to test against, and I've been to many BCNM 40s with 3 other RNGs the other two usually RNG/NIN and me RNG/WAR. Once you slap on the meat mithkabob and berserk the damage you do compared them is crazy. To this day I've yet to see a RNG/NIN go to a BCNM 40 and peak at 800 damage with barrage, for a RNG/WAR though it's quite common.

In the statement of how powerful RNGs are I have seen some RNGs solo EM monsters. The combination is simple enough but seems to take some luck and starting that fight with some TP. The pattern basically is Sidewinder > Barrage > Sidewinder with a RNG/WAR the damage from that is just plain deadly since a RNG/WAR can basically take their current attack power and push it up about 62% were the best a RNG/NIN can do is 21%. Hell in terms of just damage RNG/DRK can outdo a RNG/NIN since they are capable of peaking their attack power to 36% even though it's brief.

Really though which ever way you go RNG is still quite powerful, even if you went with something like RNG/BRD the damage output you do as RNG is going to make you a good DD still. Honestly though in terms of Raw power a BLM is truely top, but to really push that extreeme power to become practical they would have to horde all methods of MP Regen they can get their hands on as well as all the defense they can get. Then they would be able to spit out crazy damage that could put a RNG to shame.

RNG vs. THF? THF can outdamage a RNG with a good party easily. I've been in a group with a thief who was doing 500 damage SATAVB followed by a 250+ renkei. Very impressive. On command though, RNG gets the crown. Barrage or sidewinder can probably outdamage just about anything any other class can throw out there (except SMN of course).

RNG/WAR vs RNG/NIN? In anything but exp situations these days I'm /NIN for the little accuracy boost I get and blink. Since I pull, it saves MP on the mage types for greater chaining justice. I also tend to get hate more than the RNG/WAR in the static simply because he's using xbow. But he tosses out a slugshot with darksteel bolts and does comparable damage to me if he's berserked with a damn xbow :x That's about the only time he's able to grab hate. But BCNMs, AFs, Questing, etc. it's all about the /WAR for berserk. You won't have accuracy troubles with barrage or sidewinder on most non xp mobs so berserk adds a lot more to it.

But mostly, go with whatever fits your playstyle and what you enjoy. I used to love /WAR in exp parties but started to get my ass kicked too much so I went with /NIN :P

Timmy, what's so impressive about a 500 SATAVB+250 distortion? I'm guessing you're talking about crabs for your level, a single slugshot with gun or sidewinder with ebow does 650-750 damage... and we get TP a ton faster than THF as well. I don't see how SATAVB once every two fights (at the rate 3-4rng pt kill things) is even comparable to RNG damage.

Esp when we start fighting weak defense cheese like raptors, SATAVB still only does like 750 while my sidewinders do 1k+ and I can do them more often, plus my regular DoT is higher, plus we have barrage. I don't find THF our level impressive at all.

To clear things up, I never meant to say RNG/NIN (or any job combo at all) was the "totally most damaging"... what I meant was RNG/NIN is probably most damaging on many pt situations *without* being detrimental to the team. Sure RNG/DRK can be powerful, but how long would they last? Plus LR only lasts 30 seconds. RNG/NIN can go all out and tank a lot without being too detrimental to PT thanks to utsu.

I have both subs leveled because there are certain occasions where /WAR wins out, but I just think in 3-4 RNG PT, all RNG should sub /NIN, since we're passing hate so much anyway. My two cents.

This coming from a THF, RNG out-damage us no mater what... Unless you dont get a bunch of idiots through the noob areas (1-45 though 45 you should have good groups) they always will be better, if you dont get noobs then we might be able to stand up to them more, maybe pass them by a bit, but you do more damage per arrow and your WS arent something to be looked over.

Should have made myself more clear. This was before I had sidewinder :p She was doing SATAVB twice a fight and outdamaging both the RNGs over time generally. When we got sidewinder, that changed :x

why are you so offended with what he says?

Because anyone who says THF can consistantly out damage a RNG has brain damage.

Most Knives are slash damage not piercing BTW.

Scanareo though

Ranger pulls: 150 dmg
THF sets up for trick attack
Ranger hits:150+150dmg
THF tricks onto tank and tank vokes THF:250 dmg
thf jerks off for 30 seconds
Ranger hits 4 more times or so and does a weaponskill
RNG: 150x6= 900 + 200 weaponskill 1100 dmg lets be nice say the thf has 100 tp which he might
THF tricks with viper bite for 400dmg
well give him the reverbication credit too 250dmg and 100 dmg in melee dmg 400+250+100=750 dmg

THF has 750 dmg
RNG has 1100 dmg

and I was more than nice to the thf considerirng most thf dont get 100 tp in 30 seconds and the RNG didn't use any Job Abils

Also the crazy talk about the RNG/WAR that only works at lower levels. What you gain in extra berzerk damage you will loose in your WHM's MP resting time and you lowered hit rate with sidewinder. I've pt'd with RNG/WARs i still out damage them its just that every once in a while they do an insane sidewinder and can't drop hate. then they get raped by attacks like Sickle Claw, Final Sting, Jet Stream, double attacks... These are attacks that even PLD fear at times. How are you going to take them with lowered defense? Also berzerk can't be used that often. You dont see me pulling barrage against the THF in my example...

I won't sit here and deny that a THF can do a ton of damage. I won't even argue if you wanted to say that THF is a DD who supports the hate system. But I'm not about to agree to THFs being the best DD from Lv.15-45.

They do great burstable damage, but over all damage, I don't even think they're worthy of a podium appearance.

Even with SATA+Viper Bite and SATA's, a DRK/THF at those levels can make up, equal, and pass that damage.

SATA+Viper Bite = 550 (Most I've ever seen in an EXP party)
SATA = 350 (Again, most I've ever seen)

SA+Slice = 470 (Most I've ever done as DRK/THF in EXP party)
SA = 275 (Again, most I've ever done)

After that the THF's up 900dmg to 745dmg. But now factor in melee damage, as DRK/THF I can make up that 155dmg in two swings of my Scythe. (75-95dmg - obviously at Lv.45 and not Lv.15 lol) So my best, Vs their best and two extra hits. Games tied. Factor in the rest of the melee work, and nobody would argue that a DRK is way ahead of a THF.

I know this is quite some ways off from the original inquiry, but I had to comment on that notion.

Yes, thank you. Very much agreed. DRK/THF are very good damage dealers that seem overlooked at times because they don't do all their damage at once. And souleater.....:thumbsup: And a good DRK can stun a mob and buy me just enough time to recast utsusemi.

I'm becomming a forum whore because I can't play ffxi at work:dead:
I'll post some vids here tonight if I can find time to show what I'm talking about a bit...

If you add about 100 to 150 to the thf's SA/TA and viperbite, then figure that they were doing probably 1/3rd the damage I was in melee, then you can see where I'm coming from.
Ranger is only hitting 120ish in that lvl range as well.

I think damage from thf melee is way underestimated at mid level range in general. I don't dispute that they are the weakest melee class without Sa/Ta, I just don't think it's as weak as everyone wants to make it out to be. When you start fighting hard shelled stuff in the 50's, then the arguement for no damage may hold.

Anycase, we can dispute scenarios all day, but I distinctly remember the thf giving me a damn good run for my money damagewise that party, if not beating me.

Originally posted by tdh
SA+Slice = 470 (Most I've ever done as DRK/THF in EXP party)
SA = 275 (Again, most I've ever done)

Thats really high damage for a lv what? 45 you said? i was confused about that :P Anyway, SA is only a crit of your normal swing, which means that that 76-95 dmg would only be 152-~200, not ~275. And SA+Slice would only really do that damage with a good boost in TP, 200 ish? and how often do you see that? You're also basing this off a "most ever seen" not average damage on each.

550 seems a little low for around 45 though, not sure what lvl you're talking about though, but even as an Elv THF i did around 600 at that lvl, high of upper 600s. Might be brought down to gear on the THF though, ive always been pretty stacked with DEX and AGI.

Not trying to say you're wrong, I personally think we should do some parser tests as far as damage goes. Since thats all parsers can really do.

Firstly to the original poster, yes rng is VERY good pure damage dealer. Also though at higher lvls very expensive, and FFXI is expensive as is with jobs of lesse operating costs.

Now to address other things said...

1. Dagger is not slicing, it's piercing. All my highest SATAs,SATA+VP have been vs mobs weak to priecing, go figure. There is a reason thief is a recruited DD job vs flies,bats, spiders, and raptors, and it's not because we use slicing attacks which are nerfed vs those mobs. Explain a 550-600ish highest SATA viper bite at lvl 53 against spiders(plus a 350 SC at best) in the tree vs about a 450-500 against any mob neutral to piercing.

2. I wouldn't dare say we ever outdamage a ranger who if they tried could definitely beat us out. However there are certain lvl ranges 33-pre side/slug where it can be respectablely close.

Since we're a major distortion closer and distortion is very effective all of the midgame vs the commonly xped mobs we can be taken farther advantge of. Knowing distortion is extermely valuable midgame and the fact we can close it makes as no laughing matter midgame. Not only are we amoung the very best single hit wonders, but we can with our enders which can end distortion, produce the largest on average SCs at the point in the game. Only rng and blm if they wanted to truely outdamage us post side/slug and pre 60 when other melee come into their true powers.

So to sum part 2 up, no I don't thfs outdamage rngs, but I would take some offensive to other jobs midgame. A drk's average 200ish-250 WS and 100 or so SC really isn't going to make me worry in terms of pure damage. And although we're obviously outdamage inbetween our SATAs we still can close the gap. With lots of attk+ swapped gear during tp building I can easily get my damage above 10 vs crabs on average, and above 20 consistantly vs spiders lvl 52-54.

Withninja sub we attack 2.5-3 times for every weapon swing from a weapon with about 500 delay. However as the game progresses to 60+thieves can still hold their own, but I can't really argue against pure DD who do overtake us. Although between thf,rng, and a blm, a mob can be killed in one 1000+WS+1000+WS/1000+SC+1000+MB anyway so who gives a damn if the battle lasted 30 seconds anyway.

To show I'm not BSing about 2.5-3 times for a heavy weapon swing.

195+195=390
15% of 390= 331

Without going into exact math and base delays, I think 331 vs 480-500 shows 2.5-3 shouldn't be BS. Not saying thf outdamages any real melee at all in pure hits without abilities, however it's not far to compare a 0-5 damage hit during metallic body vs your optimal 80-100 on a VT. Knowing it's human nature to compare their lowest to your highest led me to that assumtpion. Sorry but it's something everyone has a tendicy to do, including myself at times.

A more fair comparion would be something including delays taken into account. Again I'll say though, I only bring this up so there isn't an unfair comparsion, not that thief is note worthy of tp building damage but don't count us out so much. Take spiders for example, I can on average hit for 20 with both daggers, so that'd be on average 50-60 per time you attack for above 100 slightly, not counting misses by both jobs. 50-60 a round is of honorable mention for a job that is only there for it's one big hit.

Well now that I'm done adding to the sidetracking on the thread about thfs I'll add more about rng. Yes they can potienally be the best DD, however don't bother unless you're willing to have the best equips and not be cheap on ammo. This job is absolutely crap unles it's near perfect. From my experiences with a wide array of grouping with rngs, you can be the the best DD easily if you get the equips, but you can also be pretty darn bad. Mostly missed barrages and WSs totally kill this job if nothing is done about it.

It's a overally fun and powerful class but it requires more work in farming, which is bad enough in this game as is with less expensive jobs to be played at a respectable level.

Originally posted by Cat
That quote above is pretty strong considering how often SATA fails because of lag or some moron in the party not paying attention or not doing his job.
Are you using "bad party members" as a reason why THF's damage should not be considered?

Obviously, I'm talking about a good party.

Q:How often in a party does the DD take hate off the tank at the start of a fight?
A:ALL THE TIME. Oh I'm sorry Mr. Thf you wanted to do Piercing arrow >> Viper Bite? OK oops ur SA attack failed because I took hate with Piercing arrow... thats ok next time stand behind the tank and when I take hate you can SATA him... ooops that time I didn't do enough damage and you wasted your SA.... Oh that time you waited too long after my WS to ready SATA.... Oh that time I missed my piercing arrow... Oh that time the Pld moved to cover the WHM... That time the 3rd DD used his WS and botched it... see my point?
??????

How could this possibly happen? You said at the start of the fight, right? At the start of the fight, the DD is the only one with hate anyway (so THF can SATAWS on tank). It's totally mindless to SATAWS because there is no hate juggling involved at all.

This happens all the time at lower levels by the time it stops RNG have Sidewinder (after sidewinder RNG take the lead easily).
Only in the worst, most horrible parties imaginable.

THF pulls with boomerang. 2nd DD vokes, tank and THF get behind mob, 2nd DD does WS, THF closes SC with SATAWS. This isn't hard at all.

You would have tp hit your SATA nearly 100% of the time to compare to a ranger's damage even then its gonna be a close call. And if you are XPing against flying monsters (like rangers SHOULD do) you won't parse more damage. NOTE: Flying mobs take almost double dmg from ranged attacks. (for those who didn't know) A thf can use ranged attack too but they will miss a lot more than a RNG because of gear bonuses and they won't hit as hard either.
Flying mobs take extra damage from piercing attacks, which includes ranged and all daggers.

I love a good thf some of the best players in midgarsormyr play thf and they have earned quite aname for themselves and have strong followings. But I don't feel they were meant to be primarily damage dealers and the fact you even posted that probably means you didn't play your ranger properly.
I had better equipment for my RNG than my THF, and my THF still did a good deal more damage, relative to the rest of the party, than my RNG did in the same levels.

The majority of your objection focuses on the party somehow not being able to set up SATA(WS) consistently. And you're saying I wasn't playing my RNG properly? Seems more likely that your parties didn't know how to use a THF properly. SATA is not that hard.

ok you liar lets settle this in game sometime put your money where your mouth is... Put a million gil on your thf out damaging my ranger against a flying mob. Obviously common sense elludes you...

How could this possibly happen? You said at the start of the fight, right? At the start of the fight, the DD is the only one with hate anyway (so THF can SATAWS on tank). It's totally mindless to SATAWS because there is no hate juggling involved at all.
The beginning of the fight means before hate has been established don't twist what I'm saying around. I can use a weaponskill at the start of a fight and easily pull hate off a tricked pld who just voked.

#2 Daggers dont do anywhere near as much more damage to flying mobs as arrows ther is no comparison daggers do slash damage not piercing.

And you want your 2nd DD to voke? whats wrong with you... not every party has room for 2 jobs with WAR subs ... so your saying a thf can do more damage if

1. He has 2 Vokers
2. Every member players perfectly.

I'm going to eat your a n00b

Originally posted by Cat
ok you liar lets settle this in game sometime put your money where your mouth is... Put a million gil on your thf out damaging my ranger against a flying mob. Obviously common sense elludes you...
Are we LV15-45?

Did you even read my original post? Or did you just see "THF outdamages RNG" and fly off the handle?

Originally posted by Cat
The beginning of the fight means before hate has been established don't twist what I'm saying around. I can use a weaponskill at the start of a fight and easily pull hate off a tricked pld who just voked.
From LV30-45 you WILL NOT pull hate from a PLD who just had a ~300 damage SATA planted on him and just voked by using Flaming or Piercing Arrow (unless you pulled with Barrage or something equally stupid). This is obvious BS.

Furthermore, this usually isn't even applicable; if you have TP at the start of the fight, you should be using WS right at the start, so THF can SATAWS on the tank. I already stated this.

#2 Daggers dont do anywhere near as much more damage to flying mobs as arrows ther is no comparison daggers do slash damage not piercing.
You don't know what you are talking about.

Daggers do not do slashing damage, period.

And you want your 2nd DD to voke? whats wrong with you... not every party has room for 2 jobs with WAR subs ... so your saying a thf can do more damage if

1. He has 2 Vokers
2. Every member players perfectly.
It's obvious why you think THF does poor damage. You think SATA is unreliable, or difficult, or something.

1) You don't need /WAR to set up first SATA (I can set up SATA with tank and RNG/NIN every time... but you need a non-idiot party).
2) Most THF parties DO have 2 vokers, precisely for the reason that it makes SATA easier to set up!

I really, really hate to say this, but I agree with Spider-Dan (No offense Dan). The only Thieves you know must have been maimed blind leppers or something.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
(unless you pulled with Barrage or something equally stupid).

Pulling with barrage is for winners! :thumbsup:


And on a second note, I actually have to agree with Dan. SATA is not that hard and if your party keeps fucking it up, it's the fucking party's fault for being retarded, not the THFs fault.


I'm going to go hide in the closet and cry now.

Originally posted by imac2much
However, this requires not only a good THF, tank, and other members (not to turn the mob at the wrong moments), but SATA also has a one minute timer. In my multi RNG PTs in Garlaige, we pull so fast that often times we were fighting 2 monsters at a time, or the 2nd monster would be available right after 1st monster dies (due to puller leaving early). In this case SATA won't always be ready, and from what I've seen, in hectic pulling parties (which are the best IMO), RNG will usually outdamage THF.
This isn't a likely problem, because a THF wouldn't really be in a multi-RNG party. Those parties have different dynamics than a "normal" party anyway (especially regarding ping-pong hate).

I was referring to standard 3 melee 3 mage party dynamics. Although I usually did the most damage in all my parties during those levels, the margin was generally greater with THF (according to logs).

at 35 i was in altepa and a rng in my pt using a gun used her 2hr and hit an IT dhamel for a little over 800dmg o.O

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
This isn't a likely problem, because a THF wouldn't really be in a multi-RNG party. Those parties have different dynamics than a "normal" party anyway (especially regarding ping-pong hate).

I was referring to standard 3 melee 3 mage party dynamics. Although I usually did the most damage in all my parties during those levels, the margin was generally greater with THF (according to logs).

Hm I see what you mean. Yeah, I can't really speak from experience then. We had THF a couple times but it didn't work well (NIN 2RNG THF BRD healer usually), the 1 THF can't keep hate from us since we barrage and WS so much.. and the point is totally moot when it comes time for sidewinder. I almost never miss sidewinders with brd and my gear, and I haven't missed yet since hitting 60 for US+PPA. I don't see how THF can outdamage this, but then again you were speaking about lower-mid levels. I think the difference in DD capabilities between RNG and THF at higher levels is obvious.

I'm the kind of person who likes being good at end game; i.e. having something to look forward to, so that's probably why I didn't notice the potential THF has at low-mid levels. I'm weird though :sweat:

Originally posted by Cat
It's statements like this that make me avoid reading forums entirely...

Actually Cat... it's statements like yours that make me avoid reading some forums entirely... you don't even make any sense with some of your posts/arguments, and frankly, I just stopped reading some of yours once you started to tangent here and there. Plus it's heavily loaded with biases and language aimed at bashing people, so I usually pay equal amounts of respect back towards the poster: Spider-Dan, don't even waste your breath on Cat.

Anyways, back on topic.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it. (note: From 30-32 a gun RNG would probably outdamage THF.)

Having taken both a THF and a RNG to the 60's, and being a bit biased because I was a Thief initially and have advocated early on that Thiefs do incredible damage levels 33-45, AND having played with very very good gear (not going to say the best), AND very very skilled players (basically static'd at some point or another with a lot of the top NA HNMLS leaders on my server), I would have to agree and disagree with Spider-Dan's statement (you need to think this out thoroughly, as it gets tricky with hypothetical min/maxing)

I agree in that with very skilled people having a great amount of resources, a thief should theoretically outdamage a ranger starting at level 15 but I'm not sure where it ends. I would think probably at least until 45 as Dan has stated, but definetely not more than 55. The key here is that the thief is using ranged weapons as well as SA (and then later TA) to suppliment his damage, whereas Rangers won't be able to utilize SA. So I envision a Ranger firing as fast as he/she can, and the Thief trying to match that firing rate (but cannot due to Rapid Shot). Then every minute, the Thief can SA+WS for a large damage boost whereas the Ranger can only do a ranged WS. Of course, hate manangement comes into play, but since both would strive to get /Nin at 24 for Utsesumi, they are on equal playing fields in terms of having to stop due to the mob beating on them.

At around 30-33ish, Thieves can also utilize SATA+VB for even more of an edge, though Rangers would have closed the gap a bit since they a) get Barrage b) get the passive acc trait, thus hits more often. Even though the gap is closing, I would still say Thieves can do more damage here. Note that we're still talking hypotheticals - so perfectly skilled people with perfect bank accounts ;)

Thus around level 45ish, would rangers start pulling away from thieves? Not sure... But I'm pretty sure Rangers will start pulling away at 55 with the Sidewinder/Slug Shot damage boost. Some can argue that if you switch to Thf/Rng you can also enjoy Sidewinder/Slug Shot, but don't forget Silver Bullets at 50. Since Rangers can use it and Thieves cannot (coupled with the fact that the Thief can only use up to a level 30 gun (37 with the latest patch), makes the Ranger pull out ahead starting at 50ish.

So hypothetically speaking, I'd say thieves do the most damage 15-49.... Comments?

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
From LV30-45 you WILL NOT pull hate from a PLD who just had a ~300 damage SATA planted on him and just voked by using Flaming or Piercing Arrow (unless you pulled with Barrage or something equally stupid). This is obvious BS.


Actually, a gun ranger can turn mobs at will if you're good enough, even with a ~300 damage SATA onto the pld tank :thumbsup:

I cannot say the same for a Xbow or a Bow rng, since I have no experience.

Ugh.!!! you tell me a non DD class can out damage the best DD class in the game and have nothing to back it up.

Look
Parser Results (http://www.geocities.com/state_champ2000/10-12-2004.html)

There is a parsing of 152 fights when I was level 71 fighting non flying mobs... Its the most recent parse I have. I avg 204 per hit against IT mobs weapon skills avg 1800 dmg per fight with two other great rng in my pt..
Its not even the fact you posted THF > RNG that pissed me off its the fact that someone actually agreed with this insane notion... You guys must pt with horrible rangers or something.

Heres how real rangers fight... I'm only gonna host this vid for a day or two
Super chain (http://192.168.1.100/videos/chain%208plus.avi)
I had to crop it cuz i dont have high upload speeed sorry

Ive also played a thf and a rng to high levels

your linking to a LAN share....

God Cat, do you even read posts?

Let me take the time to point out ONE of your many mistakes (as there are too many to point out, I don't feel like it, nor want to take the time to).

We all state "Thieves do more damage than Rangers levels 15-45"

You reply with something of the nature "Omg I don't believe what you're trying to say!! Here's a log parse of a couple of fights when I was level 71 to disprove your statement... See, Rangers do more damage than Thieves at level 71"

See something odd there? :angel:

Really, THF vs RNG at lower levels shouldn't even matter. THF simply do more USEFUL damage. USEFUL meaning big burst damage. Simply put, SA and TA after 30 simply rapes lower level mobs. This debate strangely reminds me of the MNK vs DRK debate. On one hand, you got a job that can slap on big damage in the shortest amount of time, thus killing mobs fast vs someone who does consistent (albeit HIGH in RNG case) damage.

Let's take crawlers in crawlers nest at level 30+ for instance. Sure, a RNG would most likely catch up and beat the THF if the battle lasted say, more than 1 minute. But this is irrelevent. Seeing as a smart THF would start the battle with SA/TA for big damage, followed by another big SA/TA (cuz the THF timed his cooldown). This right here would most likely do half of the crawlers HP in about 15 seconds. It simply doesn't matter what a RNG could do, because no RNG, outside of stupid ones who start the fight with something rediculous like solo WS, or Barrage could take half the mob's HP without hurting the mage's mp. In 15 seconds, you've already took off 50% of the HP, another minute and SA/TA would be available for SC. But by then, the mob would already be near dead, so let the BLM nuke it to death. Next battle comes, the THF repeats. SA/TA as soon as battle starts, then immediately go into SA/TA Viper Bite. This = dead mob. It just doesn't matter what a RNG could do in that short time. The fact remains, THF kills shit fastest, because at those levels, the mobs just don't have a lot of HP.

So yes, in short, RNG do more than THF shot for shot. But SC and properly timed SA/TA more than makes up for it. The mob is dead, and that's all that matters. Keep in mind, this is all between levels 15 to 40+.

By the way Cat, you're not imagining the full potential of the game. When you're thinking Rng > Thf, you are probably falling into the trap of thinking how MOST people play their Thieves (aka using daggers only and using SATA).

We're talking about pushing the limit of what each class can/cannot do at its full potential. We're talking about breaking all the caps imagined by the developers, and coming up with tricks to surpass all of them. We're talking about using all the resources available to you in order to achieve a min or a max possible in this game.

Here's a good example of "levels of thought" - I'll bet you if we had a contest for each of us to:

Design The Best Damage Dealing WHM

the tricks and loopholes most of us here could come up with I don't think you'll be able to fathom for a while. It's just THAT much of a difference (judging from your posts, sorry to say).

Originally posted by Cat
There is a parsing of 152 fights when I was level 71 fighting non flying mobs...

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Based on different parsing I have done with my THF and my RNG, I honestly think that from 15-~45ish THF is the most damaging DD in the game, but doesn't get much credit for it.
Like I thought, you didn't even read my original post. You just saw "THF outdamage RNG" and went ballistic.

Reading is fundamental.

I expect that now you will post the standard "who cares about low levels????" comment, even though your failure to read my post (and its context) was your own damned fault.

Cayne calm down man -_- we're talking about low-mid levels... it's obvious RNG > all DD at high levels.

As long as we're talking about theories, the point where RNG outshadow THF is a lot less than 49 IMO.

1) Let's take into account subjob. If THF subs anything OTHER than NIN, they will have to hold back for sure. So no /RNG also means no sharpshot and no passive acc up. That means at lvl 30 RNG has 25 more rng acc than THF just by job traits. Also they win out a bit more due to Sharpshot.

2) THF can equip most of the good rng acc gear at low levels, including Noct+1, rng acc rings, and archers, but they can't wear rng necklace. I use cockcharm but most RNG and THF don't, so I don't know if we can count this. So that's even less RNG ACC. Also, can THF use hawker+1s?

3) THF has C archery and markmanship (actually C- archery, C+ markmanship but there's no difference at those levels). At lvl 30 thats a difference of 7 rng acc, at 40 it's 9.

So right off the bat, 30 RNG has 25 (job traits) + 9 (rng necklace + 2 hawker+1) + 7 (skill difference) = 41 more RNG ACC than a 30 THF. Oh, and they don't have rapid shot, barrage, and sharpshot. I think it's ridiculous to think that a THF will be doing similar damage as RNG in ranged attacks. They will miss significantly more, making the strength of their SATA WS every minute less remarkable.

I don't doubt Dan if he says his THF did the most damage in his PTs. But it's also highly likely he didn't play with a GOOD RNG (in both skill and equipment). With proper equipment, a 30 RNG will hit much more often than a THF/NIN, so much so it's not certain that SATA will make up for the difference, not even taking barrage into account.

If we're talking about THF/RNG, then yes he has more RNG acc + sharpshot, but we're talking about practical xp pt. THF/RNG can't go all out in a practical xp pt since he has no blink, unless he saves tp for the start of every battle for SATA WS. But that also implies that he's not SATA'ing or WS'ing every possible opportunity since he has to save it for the start of every battle, which puts even more variables in the equation.

So anyways, as long as we're talking about theoretical situations, I think lvl 30 is where the difference between RNG and THF gets more noticeable. But I care more about the endgame than mid level so I'm not too inclined to test and find out hehe.

Sorry I just got pissed because its simply not true. Ive never been outdamaged by a thf in a party Ive played a thf through those levels and I couldn't out damage my rng if i had to. Ive played RNG through those levels... the point i was trying to make with the parse and the video was a party with a thf will run slower xp/hr than a ranger i guess i ddi a bad job of explaining it.

A multi ranger party can easily pull 10k an hour and ther is no room for a thf in it... theres a reason thf have trouble getting invites think about it. No from 15-45 thf don't out damage a rng and Ill goto emptyness with this thf to prove it.

Sorry I just got pissed because its simply not true. Ive never been outdamaged by a thf in a party Ive played a thf through those levels and I couldn't out damage my rng if i had to. Ive played RNG through those levels... the point i was trying to make with the parse and the video was a party with a thf will run slower xp/hr than a ranger i guess i ddi a bad job of explaining it.

A multi ranger party can easily pull 10k an hour and ther is no room for a thf in it... theres a reason thf have trouble getting invites think about it. No from 15-45 thf don't out damage a rng and Ill goto emptyness with this thf to prove it. I'll make a pt of 6 and he makes a pt of 6 and we can see which kills the same mob faster.

Sorry I just got pissed because its simply not true. Ive never been outdamaged by a thf in a party Ive played a thf through those levels and I couldn't out damage my rng if i had to. Ive played RNG through those levels... the point i was trying to make with the parse and the video was a party with a thf will run slower xp/hr than a ranger i guess i ddi a bad job of explaining it.

A multi ranger party can easily pull 10k an hour and ther is no room for a thf in it... theres a reason thf have trouble getting invites think about it. No from 15-45 thf don't out damage a rng and Ill goto emptyness with this thf to prove it. I'll make a pt of 6 and he makes a pt of 6 and we can see which kills the same mob faster. Because my pt is gonna have 5 rng and a healer and juggle utsusemi. While he will be wating valuable slots on trick dummies and tanks

Originally posted by Narru
Design The Best Damage Dealing WHM

if i wasnt playing ranger id be doing this right now. it would be devastating >:D not talking upper class melee damage like a rng or a drk obviously, but depending on mob type i bet i could outdamage the majority of melees, base str is already 66 with a smn sub ^^; plus ~800 (my guess with full melee gear) mp to spare D:

anyways, cayne youre a dear but take your ritalin ^^; /point@triple post

Sorry about multi posting >.< bad internet I didn't mean to do that.. seriously sorry... eeew supprised the Board let me do that

yea I'm loosing it sylvy :dead: I've just never heard someone make such an outrageous claim and of course he isn't willing to put any money on it...

You reply with something of the nature "Omg I don't believe what you're trying to say!! Here's a log parse of a couple of fights when I was level 71 to disprove your statement... See, Rangers do more damage than Thieves at level 71"

No I'm showing the basic flow of a battle wiht multiple rangers I'm sure this thf hasn't seen anything like it before I'd be glad to AIM anyone this video yes its past the levels we are tallking about but the basic flow of the fight is the same but the rng do less dmg and the mob have less hp so its a nominal difference.

AIM: Asics777 if u cant DL the vid ill share it on there

Originally posted by Cat
yea I'm loosing it sylvy :dead: I've just never heard someone make such an outrageous claim and of course he isn't willing to put any money on it...

its not an outrageous claim! you are just going insane, because we are saying low lvl thfs are good DD's. stop taking this video game so personal.

i've been lvl'ing drk lately, like a machine. was at lvl 10 last thursday - cracked 23 last night.

all of my pt's since 15 had either a rng or thf or both. you are not giving enough credit to sneak attack at low lvls. it just crushes mobs. not that rangers don't do good damage, its just that SA is that good. and when you're fighting crabs and its a struggle to finish them - sneak attack always ends the fight.

now, saying that, i've preferred having a ranger. basically because flaming arrow -> dark harvest makes me a happy drk. but there is no doubt, no doubt whatsoever, that thfs can be considered the best hitters from 15-23 (where i am so far).

so relax. stop being an irate internet user. ;)

its not an outrageous claim! you are just going insane, because we are saying low lvl thfs are good DD's. stop taking this video game so personal.
Around level 40 Sneak attack does decent damage its not even that impressive really at low levels you see numbers like 400ish with a weapon skill for barrage you see numbers like 800 just as often if u add up the naturally high rng damage and faster tp gain because most rangers can get 2 or 3 weapon skills off per fight and additional accuracy bonus the rng has over the thf the thf will not compare. I never said thf didn't do decent dmg from 15-45 i just said they didn't do the most and I said they weren't to be considered a DD job like BLM DRK and RNG.

Originally posted by sylvanas
[B]if i wasnt playing ranger id be doing this right now. it would be devastating >:D not talking upper class melee damage like a rng or a drk obviously, but depending on mob type i bet i could outdamage the majority of melees, base str is already 66 with a smn sub ^^; plus ~800 (my guess with full melee gear) mp to spare D:

Off topic: Sylvy wanna PT your offensive WHM with my offensive PLD? >:O I'm almost done getting all my gear.. I'm making a PLD/NIN with company sword (d56 with full party) + joyeuse, opti hat, peacock charm, byrnie, sniper + ruby, fenrir + assault, amemit+1, life belt, and other miscellaneous stuff. I'm pretty sure I can be on par with a lot of other melees with this setup (obviously not RNG). I won't be a tank but at least I'll be able to stay alive if I do get aggro with utsusemi, sentinel, cures, and flash. Let's do it!! :thumbsup:

Originally posted by bonovoxpsu
but there is no doubt, no doubt whatsoever, that thfs can be considered the best hitters from 15-23 (where i am so far).

Not for 99% of the THF out there. We're considering that the THF is wearing full +rng acc gear, using SATA to complement ranged attacks. 99% of the THF out there at these levels just use sword, h2h or dagger, and only use ranged for pulling (plus usually not capped skill). There's no way a THF from 15-29 can outdamage a RNG unless the THF is using ranged attacks. Absolutely no way. Easy to prove; at these levels THF doesn't have Trick Attack so all the damage is being attributed to the THF, yet in a PT with a RNG and a THF, the RNG will ALWAYS get more aggro than the THF, guaranteed.

We're mainly talkinga bout THF to the full potential at low levels; unfortunately 99% of the THF out there at low levels don't even think about using bow or xbow.

Grrr.....I took the time to make a fairly large reply post to some of the statement here....but server crapped out on me when I went ahead and confirmed the reply, so lost everything :mad:

I will try to summarize quickly.

Originally posted by imac2much
As long as we're talking about theories, the point where RNG outshadow THF is a lot less than 49 IMO.

1) Let's take into account subjob. If THF subs anything OTHER than NIN, they will have to hold back for sure. So no /RNG also means no sharpshot and no passive acc up. That means at lvl 30 RNG has 25 more rng acc than THF just by job traits. Also they win out a bit more due to Sharpshot.

2) THF can equip most of the good rng acc gear at low levels, including Noct+1, rng acc rings, and archers, but they can't wear rng necklace. I use cockcharm but most RNG and THF don't, so I don't know if we can count this. So that's even less RNG ACC. Also, can THF use hawker+1s?

3) THF has C archery and markmanship (actually C- archery, C+ markmanship but there's no difference at those levels). At lvl 30 thats a difference of 7 rng acc, at 40 it's 9.

I think it's ridiculous to think that a THF will be doing similar damage as RNG in ranged attacks. They will miss significantly more, making the strength of their SATA WS every minute less remarkable.

With proper equipment, a 30 RNG will hit much more often than a THF/NIN, so much so it's not certain that SATA will make up for the difference, not even taking barrage into account.

THF/RNG can't go all out in a practical xp pt since he has no blink, unless he saves tp for the start of every battle for SATA WS. But that also implies that he's not SATA'ing or WS'ing every possible opportunity since he has to save it for the start of every battle, which puts even more variables in the equation.

So anyways, as long as we're talking about theoretical situations, I think lvl 30 is where the difference between RNG and THF gets more noticeable.

After replying last night, I kinda seemed odd to me how THF can be better damage than RNG until 49. Now that I think about it, 49 might be a little too high for that claim. Right now I would argue that levels 15-42ish THF damage is theoretically higher than every other class in the game. But at 42+, RNG damage is theoreticall highest.

Couple of points:

1) Ranger passive is +22 at level 30 (+10 +12), and I would agree with the rest of your point

2) Originally was hoping for the +10 boost from Peacock at 33, but thinking again, that might not be something we can use as a reasonable case. If THF goes /RNG, can utilize Beater's Earring and Gun Belt. But I will argue for THF/NIN. At 40, Jadged Gorget is similar to Ranger's Necklace. No THF's can't use Hawkers (RNG/BST), gotta stick to Archers.

3) Marksmanship ranking is indeed 7 difference. But not sure if 1 skill point = 1 ranged acc. Anyone have a formula? Think in the end, with traits and gear, a more reasonable number for the R.Acc. bonus a RNG has over a THF is around 31-33ish, not the 41 that you claim. If we count Peacock, that reduces advantage to 25ish more. I would also argue that if you're boosting R.Acc. that high at those low levels, even though RNG has 30+ more than THF, you're both still going to hit fairly well (again we're not talking about being cheap on gear here).

When I'm saying THF > RNG for damage here's what I envision (let's use level 33 as an example, because it's a nice crossroad) :

THF dual wields Archer Knives, and uses the same gun + bullets as the RNG (you pick, Miltary Gun or Pirate's Gun+1). Identical gear except RNG can use Ranger's Necklace and Hawkers while THF can use Feather Collar+1 and Archers.

Pull comes back, within the first 30 secs, THF performs 2 SATA's (one on main tank, other on trick buddy). Meanwhile between these the RNG is firing as fast as possible and uses Barrage every 5 mins. THF is also firing as fast as possible between SATA's. Whenever RNG hits 100% TP, Split Shot. Whenever THF hits 100% and SATA timer ready, SATA+VB +Distortion Renkei damage. It is from this scenario that I think THF > RNG damage levels 15-42ish.

Some obstacles in the way:

-34 RNG gets Serpintine Gun (+10 R.Acc, +10 R.Attk, RNG only), huge advantage at this level, but THF's also get VB at 33 so arguable.
-50 RNG gets Silver Bullets - no way for THF to be comparable in ranged attacks at this point, thus RNG > THF for sure 50+
- I really don't know what level THF and RNG start to be equal in damage. I guestimated 42ish, but could be +/- 2 levels.

Reminder this is just a summary, I don't feel like taking the hour to redo my fairly large reply I did earlier :mad:

Anyways, I concluded the reply with some things to think about when thinking about a THF and/or RNG in a PT:

- THF allows everyone in the PT to do more damage (hate management).
- RNG allows the THF to do more damage ( huge damage bow WS -> VB/DE = better renkei effect )
- When we argue if THF or RNG does more damage, gotta consider that the RNG needs the THF in order to pull more damage, whereas the THF only needs himself. In other words, take a 5 member PT (that doesn't have a THF nor a RNG in it). Add the RNG in the PT, parse the damage done by the RNG. Then replace the RNG with a THF and parse that damage. I think most of the people here would agree that the THF will log more damage than the RNG.
- What if the two are in the same PT and are trying to COMPETE with each other for title of "best damage dealer." That'll just make everything complicated. THF can SATA onto RNG to prevent him from firing as fast. RNG can wait til THF uses VB/DE, then renkei off that to boost his numbers. RNG can time his WS's to be at an odd multiple of the SATA 1 minute timer, making the THF wait. etc

Pretty sure I haven't covered everything I did originially, but don't want to waste this post again, so gonna submit.

Great reply. A few points: most parsers log skillchain effect damage separately so that doesn't matter. JP guide says that 1 weapon skill = 0.9 accuracy. I'm not sure if it's the same with RNG ACC but it would make sense I think.

I really doubt THF is going to have peacock at those levels, and I'm sure Dan didn't have peacock at those levels (remember he was the first person talking about THF being high DD due to his parsings), so we can count that out.

You're right though, the 2 acc traits would be +22 not +25, my fault. Hm so at level 30 RNG will still have +22(job trait) +9 (hawker+1+rng necklace) +6 (skill) = 37 rng acc.

You're right that there is most likely a soft cap on ranged accuracy, and at those levels it might not be too hard to reach it. But I still think that 37 ranged accuracy points makes a significant difference. I also don't think it's possible for the THF to use sata EVERY minute; at times he will want to save it if monster is almost dead so he can do it at start of next one, or sometimes he will miss because monster will suddenly move.

Another thing: as long as we're talking about other variables such as the fact that THF can do more damage if he tricks onto a tank, let's take something else into account. (Since you bring up a good point that THF is less dependent on RNG than RNG is for THF) This point really only works in conventional PTs. However, conventional PTs are NEVER the best way to get XP. Even at low levels, multi RNG PTs rule. A 4 RNG + RDM + WHM PT or so is going to far outdamage a 4 THF + RDM + WHM PT even at low levels. In a multi - high DD PT, hate gets passed around between blinkers, so much so that SATA is going to be nigh impossible to hit correctly. A multi RNG PT is still going to get much more XP than a multi THF PT or a 3RNG+THF PT.

THF can't do optimal damage if he has hate. RNG can still do optimal damage if he has hate.

Until now I was acknowledging the fact that THF can potentially be stronger than RNG at low levels in a conventional PT (but I still think only for levels 15-29). But optimal XP will be made in a PT without THF.

Another thing: the more I think about it, the more I fail to see how THF can do good damage until 28 and 30... What +RNG ACC gear can they use? Noct+1 is at 30, archers at 28... all they have are some rings right? Whereas RNG will have necklace and acc up trait I (so +15 rng acc). I remember clearly that it was relatively hard to hit mobs before 2 archer knives since we didn't have much straight up RNG ACC gear, just some decent +AGI gear. A THF will have around 17-18 less rng acc at these levels and no sharpshot, so can they really hit as often as us RNG? I doubt it... but at these levels maybe SA is enough to make up the difference, but I don't think a THF is going to blow RNG out of the water even before 27. So maybe THF > RNG from 28-29... but that's a much narrower level range than the proposed 15-49.

All this talk of "perfect damage dealing situations" seems rather pointless to me. I actually think the averages sport a better case for Thief.

At least, I assume my experience is average.

A few key points about my experience in Kazham from 25-30.

I tanked. Not because we didn't have a Tank, but because before TA, even just SA just did that much.

Puller comes in.
I SA the mob for ~150
Paladin Provokes and heals, gets hate back
I SA the mob for ~150
Paladin shuffles his feet for another 20 seconds and waits for Provoke to refresh
He provokes, mob dies.

Was this smart? Hell no! It was the stupidest thing I've ever seen! But it's been about like that since Lv. 15, too. I could hold back my SA's and save the healer MP, but in Qufim and Kazham, things are usually so slow that it doesn't even matter. You end up pulling Toughs if that's all that's out there (I did ~200 on T/VT). Before SATA, if the Thief isn't doing damage, why is he there? So I did what I could to do damage, save for using Crossbows, since my Marksmanship isn't leveled at all.

In Kazham, actually, I did party with several Rangers, one group had two, in fact. Before 30 their Damage was good, but only as good as the Dark Knights' I grouped with, but with one major difference.

(This is Vs. IT Mandragoras in Yhoator)

Scythe: ~50
Arrow: ~55
Dagger: ~30

Gust Slash (Pfft): 50 damage
Piercing Shot: ~100 damage
Sneak Attack: ~130 damage
Shadow of Death(?): ~200 damage

Maybe the Drk had uber equipment, I dunno, maybe the Ranger was an idiot, but these are the numbers I saw. I doubt the Rangers were all that bad, one of them was the best puller I've played with (NA or JP, she was JP).

You'll notice of course, that I haven't been talking about 30 at all. I stopped about halfway through 30, I was able to pull off several successive SATAs rather easily (hence my earlier comment on the ease of SATA)... Though unfortunately that was usually SATA -> Ranger followed by SATA -> Tank. Just about as stupid as pre-30.

There is Barrage though, but that's a 5 minute ability, isn't it? It seems rather unfair to talk about how pulls can come so fast that the Thief can't get his double SATA in when Barrage can only be used once every three or so fights.

So this is why I agree that, at least 15-30, an Average Thief (No Leaping boots, no Emperor's Hairpin, no crossbow) can outdo an Average Ranger (no guns, peacock charm, etc). Perhaps favoring thieves even more as the quality of the player decreases (Ranger is much more dependant on equipment, a good Gun Ranger may have done more than me, I don't know, I haven't partied with any).

Of course, maybe I'm completely mistaken in thinking that I'm an average Thief? Thief is my highest class, so it's not like I have millions in equipment to spend on it. I'm 0/3 on Spipi, 0/1 on JEJ, 0/1 on the Bomb King and 0/2 on Doppleganger Gog (Course, those last two are deaths =p)

My equipment 25-30

Small Sword or Federation Knife
Mahogany Shield
Flame Boomerang (~35 Throwing Skill)
Garrison Tunica
Garrison Hose
(Bastok?) Gloves. (One of the +3 attack gloves, I forget which)
Compound Eye Circlet
Spike Necklace (-6 Mind Vs. Mandragora Sleep bites T_T)
2x Beetle Earring +1
2x Balance Ring
Bone Leggings

I haven't partied at all since I got my Noct +1, so I can't say how that changes things.

Just thought I'd throw out some information. I'm not saying Thf > Rng in any concrete way, but it can and does happen at both high and low skill levels. Hopefully when I go Ranger (which I plan to), I'll be able to outdo Thieves and Dark Knights of my level, but I really won't expect it since I'm probably gonna be pretty broke XD

At 15 you sneak attack snipper for like 80 damage? ranged attacks hit them for about 60 and we melee and close the gap a bit more and the ranged damage is very very consistant. Unless you can sneak attack faster than I can shoot 2 arrows and somehow I decide that I dont wana do weapon skills you wont outdamage me at 15... Unless you used a ranged weapon as well as a ranger. IF you can use it as well as a ranger you can do a little more damage were talking 40 more per fight... But if you hit for less (and you will) or miss more often (and you will) then the RNG will parse more dmg. Lets not overlook acid bolts at level 15 that rangers get that make everyone hit harder.

Why are RNG and THF debating over this. As soon as THF get TA, THF and RNG compliment each other perfectly right up til 66 when DRK/THF takes over. RNG and THF 30-66 = best duo.

Originally posted by Cat
and the ranged damage is very very consistant.

I assume this was a typo, and you meant that ranged attacks are extremely inconsistant at Lv. 15 (due to their accuracy)? Especially in Valkurm, where just about everyone has accuracy problems.

60 damage on IT's at 15 is also a little high, I think. I may be wrong, I only grouped with one in Valkurm, and I don't remember how much damage he did, but to say that a Rng does as much damage at 15 and 30 is a little strange. Of course, often in Valkurm you do end up fighting some pretty low enemies for your level, I'm sure you can break 60 on a T/VT (when they hit), but if you want to use that number, you have to count Thf SA for 2x100+ (If you're fighting T/VT that means your puller is having trouble finding stuff to fight, so you can expect the Thief to be able to double his SA at the begining of the fight.)

Not much point in arguing about 15-20 though, far as I've seen, the most use for either Rng or Thf in Valkurm is to sub war for the additional Provoke (Assuming the average Bad-Valkurm-Party(tm))

-- edit --

Just noticed you're Elvaan. I've mostly partied with Hume and Mithra Rangers, so I don't know how much the Elvaan Strength helps. I don't think it's that much, but if it is, please refer to the first paragraph ~_^

I assume this was a typo, and you meant that ranged attacks are extremely inconsistant at Lv. 15 (due to their accuracy)? Especially in Valkurm, where just about everyone has accuracy problems.

RNG easily break 60 in dunes i was actually lowering the damage amount especially after an acid bolt and with a food effect on. And I picked a snipper and not a damselfly (which would take over 100 dmg)... you really shouldn't have posted if you've only partied with one ranger in dunes ever. I was talking about a ranger who has a decent bow or crossbow as well.

When I said ranger damage is consistant I meant you will see a ranger hit for 72 like 12 times in a row where as a melee will hit for 63 83 53 58 something like that. If you have accuracy problems with a ranger you need to update your gear because they are the most accurate job in the game.

--sorry missed that last part--
-- edit --
PS
I don't know why but yes strength affects ranged attack damage quite a bit. Even for marksmanship... Go figure I dont see why a stronger person would shoot harder than a weaker one with a gun. But I've tested this some and STR has quite a posative effect on damage although at level 15 its not a big deal. You are looking at a lot of accuracy bonuses though rangers necklace +5 rings+1 i think add +3 each one accuracy bonus job trait ,sharpshot, some agility gear, +5 from the arrow and probably a little more from a +1 bow.

(Assuming the average Bad-Valkurm-Party(tm))

Yes this is probably due to the high concentration of rank 1 players and players without SJ and simply players who don't really know how to play their job yet.
(This is Vs. IT Mandragoras in Yhoator)

Scythe: ~50
Arrow: ~55
Dagger: ~30

Gust Slash (Pfft): 50 damage
Piercing Shot: ~100 damage
Sneak Attack: ~130 damage
Shadow of Death(?): ~200 damage


Seriously you partied with a bad ranger or a ranger who was afraid of dealing damage and used cheap arrows. Some of the fastest exp I ever got was in Yhoator hitting chain 6 and 7 with a 2 rng 2nin 1smn/whm i forget the last member I think it was a bard or whm.. But at 200 exp per kill we didn't have a parser but Id use eagle eye and note my exp then check it again when it was 1hr till ready exp there was 8-10k an hour and we got 9 levels in one party. from 28-37 then the ninjas disbanded cuz it was their SJ for 75 war not all of it was in elshimo jungles but till 32 or 33 it was and by the end out gear was outdated and we were still getting those chains on ITs

Originally posted by imac2much
Off topic: Sylvy wanna PT your offensive WHM with my offensive PLD? >:O I'm almost done getting all my gear.. I'm making a PLD/NIN with company sword (d56 with full party) + joyeuse, opti hat, peacock charm, byrnie, sniper + ruby, fenrir + assault, amemit+1, life belt, and other miscellaneous stuff. I'm pretty sure I can be on par with a lot of other melees with this setup (obviously not RNG). I won't be a tank but at least I'll be able to stay alive if I do get aggro with utsusemi, sentinel, cures, and flash. Let's do it!! :thumbsup:

XD id love to try it, but i cant afford all the fancy melee stuff for whm while playing rng at the same time E:

with the right gear im thinking pld is definitely a fearsome melee too, its just unorthodox so people dont do it D:

I wasn't the one talking about THF/RNG; if you want max damage from THF in the low 30s, you should probably sub WAR, though I was using /NIN myself. Ranged attacks from THF are too inconsistent to rely on for damage, though in hindsight if I had Acid Bolts available to THF back then, it would have helped damage output even more.

As far as me not partying with a "good" RNG, the RNG I am primarily comparing my THF to is my own. My RNG had noticeably better gear than my THF did (THF was my first job), and my damage lead per party as THF was, on average, larger than it was as RNG in the same levels. Skill difference is therefore eliminated as a factor; the same person was behind the controls for both.

imac, you say that if THF subs anything but NIN, they would have to hold back; why would they? Unless you are talking about pre-30...

As far as me not partying with a "good" RNG, the RNG I am primarily comparing my THF to is my own. My RNG had noticeably better gear than my THF did (THF was my first job), and my damage lead per party as THF was, on average, larger than it was as RNG in the same levels. Skill difference is therefore eliminated as a factor; the same person was behind the controls for both.

I'm a bit curious what you say is noticeably better gear since this is the third time you've mentioned it without giving any examples.

And skill difference is a factor... One person could be a great THF and a horrible ranger. Theres more to it than just pressing Ctrl+D.

Ranger is so great

I have not much else to add vs ranger vs thief...As my thief there is no other job I'd rather be partners with than rng starting the SCs.

However I can vouch for those numbers cat mentioned for rng. My rng is currently 25, I was just xping it today in the jungle infact. Well back in dunes I had LL,ranger necklance, hunter bow-power bow+1, most recent arrows etc. I hit for 40+ in dunes on incs and back then I didn't use acid bolts which I started using at 21. So I'd imagine 60 is definitely possible.

And 55 really isn't a great number for rng in the jungle, and 100 piercing? Why was the rng using piercing and not flaming vs mandies. Carried a good habit against crabs and pugs, and it's now a bad habit vs mandies I suppose.

Here are the numbers I saw and my equips that gave agi,rng attk,rng acc. 2 beetle+1 rings, ranger necklance, powerbow+1, fang(15dmg/5acc) and silver arrows(19dmg),LL,emperor hairpin,nomad mantle, And I use all kinds of bolts too at the start of battles if bow tp is low going into the start, venom and acid(s). The rest was just normal stuff. And I used mithkabobs of course.

I was a lvl 25 rng during this and I'd say my average bow hit without acid bolts was about 60. If I pumped 1-2 acids in I'd hit for 70-80, and sometimes criticals around 90 but not often. This was on inc mandies and my best flaming arrow vs an inc tough was for 160+ fire SC with just over 200% tp. There were no thieves in the group but this is merely to show better numbers than 55s and 100 piercings. My average flaming arrow was about 130 I'd guess. And before disbanding I did a 420 EES.

I examined other rangers in the area however and they were gimp: No pin,LL,no +1 beetle rings, etc. It's pretty hard to find a dependable ranger with the better equips pre 30 just like it is for thf.

Those should be pretty decent numbers to base rng archery damage off for lvl 25 with the skill cap of 78. Given I had maybe a tiny bit of room for improvement, but not that much if any. And these numbers are still fresh in my memory too. -Enjoy-

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
imac, you say that if THF subs anything but NIN, they would have to hold back; why would they? Unless you are talking about pre-30...

I did mean pre-30. Remember, this is all theoretical to me, I have absolutely nothing to back me up cuz I didn't parse anything at low levels... but I gave a few reasons why I *think* RNG would be more damaging than THF post 30.

I honestly don't see how a THF can outdamage *without* using ranged attacks.... I'm not doubting your integrity per se, but it's just hard for me to believe. My ranged shots did 80-100 a hit even back then from what I recall; there's no way dagger can keep up with that kind of damage, even with the SATA every minute. SATA every minute would probably be 250 damage, 400 with WS, yet RNG will be doing that much in just a few shots.

As Cayne says, this is easy to test. Just go to one of the early promyvions like dem, mea, holla, and go to second or third floor for some VT/IT's and parse it.

If we were talking about ranged attacks then maybe THF could be damaging... I just don't see how a THF/WAR or /NIN with just pure dagger or sword can outdamage a RNG even at low levels. THFs *very* rarely get aggro even before 30 (without trick attack), yet RNG get aggro all the time. If we're talking about post 30, the addition of trick attack won't outdamage the advantage RNG has from dual hawkers, noct+1, barrage, etc. Just my two cents.

I honestly don't see how a THF can outdamage *without* using ranged attacks.... I'm not doubting your integrity per se, but it's just hard for me to believe. My ranged shots did 80-100 a hit even back then from what I recall; there's no way dagger can keep up with that kind of damage, even with the SATA every minute. SATA every minute would probably be 250 damage, 400 with WS, yet RNG will be doing that much in just a few shots

You're pretending thf Melee is nonexistant, and it's not. If you're doing 80-100 per shot, thf is doing 35-50 per set of swings in a shorter time period. Add 50 to 100 to your SA/TA numbers for a good thf. If the fight only lasts 45 seconds, it's very easy to get outdamaged in a standard group.

Will a group of rangers pwn a group of thieves? Yes. This is standard group setup we're talking though, which I actually finds pretty enjoyable despite sometimes not being the fastest way to get xp.

I understand your point greysenn, but it's not like THF is doing 50 dmg a swing with a dagger. And seriously, like I said, I have never seen a THF consistently get aggro just swinging his dagger and using SA, while RNG do consistently get aggro spamming ctrl+D.

I could be wrong, but although THF melee is not nonexistent... it's not exactly strong either.

Cat: Not much to say. If you say I partied with bad rangers, well, then, I partied with bad rangers. Part of my point, was, as I said, that it's easier to be a good thief than a good ranger. There's a lot more HQ equipment out there that makes a big difference for Rangers. As for the accuracy, you're right, I don't know through direct experience. I have however, played Ranger to 10 (Before I quit in February), and have been told that regardless of the necklace and items, you'll still be having accuracy problems up to at least Lv. 30, where you get the (Second?) passive accuracy boost (Which helps more than Archers knives, supposedly).

I do have to question your syaing that they're the "most accurate" job, since many Rangers sub Ninja for Dual Archers/Hawkers (And Utsusemi)-- and I don't think it's just for Sidewinder (Though that would be a good enough reason). But what do I know?

Jaggy: If you're going to call a Ranger without Leaping boots "Gimp" you have to say the same for Thieves, and frankly, Thieves get way more out of Leaping Boots and Emperor's Hairpin than a Ranger does. The numbers you posted aren't a whole lot higher than mine, and accept that it's probably an equipment difference-- but I also suggest that an equally "pimped out" Thief could do even more damage than the numbers I gave for Thief. As I said I was suggesting tha