RDM/WHM VS WHM/BLM.

[Blondie boi]

Just a few days ago was my first time leveling with a level 41 RDM. I was amazed by how much Refresh and Convert help in a party situation.

The RDM kept Refresh on all the people in the party that needed it at all times. When the puller would come back with a Mob he would cast debuffs on it then sit back and help me heal the Tank. With us both with Refresh and sharing the heals, we almost had no down time at all. And we had a lot of MP to spare. In effectiveness he was doing much more then I was.

The only cure we needed to use was Cure II. Cure III is was not really needed at all(and it gets good amount of Hate)and at level 43 that is the only healing spell that should be used in a battle that a level 43 RDM does not have. Getting Cure spells to their Heal caps is not vary hard so his Cure II was just as affective as mine.

I think WHM's have a few good things but RDM’s have things that will match and better most of the WHM’s ability’s and spells.

It starts.. White Mage VS Red Mage...


White Mage stats VS Red Mage stats

Hume White Mage / Black Mage
Level HP MP STR DEX VIT AGI INT MND CHR

45 634 389 39 37 39 40 41 49 44

Hume Red Mage / White Mage
Level HP MP STR DEX VIT AGI INT MND CHR

45 679 343 39 42 37 40 46 43 41

WHM’s don't have to much more MP then RDM's and with Convert and Refresh that gives RDM's much more MP. RDM's have overall higher stats then WHM's besides their MND and Magic Points so RDM's have much more survivability.

Winner .. WHM if you go with just pure stats WHM are better at healing, but if you throw Refresh and Convert RDM's are obviously the winner in this category.


Divine Seal VS Convert...

WHM's have Divine Seal but Convert is obviously much more effective then Divine Seal. Lets say at the most Divine Seal makes Cure spells two time's stronger, but RDM's convert lets them cast at least 12 more Cure II's. (that is not counting them healing themselves after they use Convert.) So it is easily twice as strong.

Winner Convert...


Refresh VS Protectra/Shellra, Curaga and Regen.

I find all the Protectra/Shellra spells vary effective, but a RDM can cast Protect on the Tank and in a good party the only person that "really" needs protect is the Tank. Even in area's where monsters are doing AOE spells Protectra/Shellra will help, but not all that much. So it is nice, but I don't think it is half as affective as Refresh. Refresh can give a party almost NO down time. I have never seen a Protectra/Shellra spell give a party much less downtime.

The Curaga spells are nice, but really they are not going to bring down time up much for the fact that they tend to cost a lot of MP so when the WHM is resting while everyone standing around with full HP waiting on the WHM‘s MP.

Regen is a nice spell to save MP, but really I don't see how it helps all that much. It's a nice spell, but nowhere near as strong or effective as Refresh.

I think that Refresh is prolly the best spell in the game. It can almost kill all downtime in a party that knows that it is doing.

Winner.. Refresh.


WHM's raise ability VS RDM's raise ability.

WHM's are easily the best raiser's in the game. I don't think I need to argue the point so..

Winner White Mage.


Benediction VS Chainspell

Benediction can heal the entire party in one second and it is a VARY nice spell, but in a good party that knows what it is doing this spell should not be needed. Chainspell is kinda weak next to Benediction, but I don't think Benediction and Chainspell are used enough or at times that you are really getting good Exp to effect much.

Winner Benediction!


I guess the fact that WHM's have such better raising spells then RDM's this and the Protectra/Shellra spells could win them a spot in parties.(I don't think that it's really a good enough but I am not sure if at higher levels these spells might be needed more.) And it's not like I think WHM's are totally useless when it comes to healing, but RDM's are just as good and even better for the fact that they have so much less downtime with Convert and Refresh.

I am definitely not trying to bash on White Mages. I am a White Mage myself and enjoy playing the role as one, but I am somewhat aggravated by the fact that RDM's can heal better. I think that Square has made a mistake in the way WHM's and RDM's play roles.

So I think that in the end a party with two RDM's is going to have less down time then a party with a RDM and a WHM. And even alone, I think that after level 41 RDM's make better main healers then WHM's.

If someone can find a flaw in my logic please tell me.. I would be happy to hear a good point why WHM's make better healers then RDM's.

It just does not make sense..

[Pilsbane]

I don't think Square made a mistake by making Redmages good healers too. I think it would be a mistake to make White Mages the only proficient healers. If White Mages were the only good healers you'd get the Everquest-syndrome where you could have 3 of every class present and not be able to raid anything due to not having enough clerics. I hated that.

[Icemage]

WHM get:

- Cure V. There's no way a Red Mage can keep up with the healing power of Cure V. This spell is unbelievably powerful.

- Raise II/III. Hmm... let's see... -1500XP loss at level 56 or -500, or even -200? Take your pick.

- Regen II/III. One of the big keys to WHM success, Regen spells generate a constant stream of healing for minimal enmity. RDM have only Regen I, which does... not much at higher levels. :)

Overall, the key difference between a WHM healer and RDM/WHM healer is in enmity. WHM have a whole bunch of ways to heal without generating tons of enmity that RDM do not, and the WHM healing arsenal is simply more efficient than RDM's across the board.

Smart parties have both RDM and WHM - anyone at higher levels who thinks an RDM is going to outperform a WHM at the primary healer spot needs to get their head checked.


Icemage

[illusan]

RDM is just a speed caster... imo
They are a good solo class and can fill in most spots in a party.
I personally prefer a RDM over WHM.

Also I'd just like to point out that the RDM 2-Hour is very useless until you get Refresh/Raise/Convert...


Scenario:

Everyone in the party dies... except.... who? RDM


Use 2-Hr...
Refresh
Raise Party
Convert
Heals

Run away~ omgz! ^^



RDM is the jack of all trades, master of none.

[Navia]

Best parties I have been in that generate 4k+ xp an hour have RDM and WHM, to push things even farther add in a BRD.
A RDM that thinks they can fill the role of enfeebler and main healer is going to get smacked around bad by a monster because of all the enmity generated by casting so much.

When you start fighting monsters with nifty moves like sickle slash and death scissors that can go off twice in a span of 5 seconds that can take out your tank, I think you'd be insane to not have a WHM.

I don't know why a RDM would want to be a main healer instead of sticking with enfeeble/refresh/link control and doing MB on renkei.

[Miriamel]

Yes, I agree. It's always wise to have two people capable of healing in a party and usually, you will want both - a red mage and a white mage.

[Issaac]

Accept everybody in the group would use a reraise scroll....

RED > WHITE

With convert and Refresh a RED does has about twice the mana of a WHITE. His heals are not that effective as the WHITE once so he ends up at maybe RED = 1.8 X WHITE.

You only need a White as feelgod for raise. Thats why they prey as hell that we never get our fingers on convert and refresh (if they would raise the lvl cap > 80).

[Sera]

Heh. I find this oddly amusing...

Okay, even though I am a WHM I will admit that in high level parties you can replace a WHM with two (not just one) decent RDMs. That much I will give you. But frankly, I prefer the more balanced approach. Each job has it's niche in the game world and in the cases of the three main mage classes, they work best when they are able to work with each other. Some of my best parties have been with a WHM, BLM, and RDM in the group. I won't write off RDM entirely, but I will say that there is no class that can heal as efficiently as a WHM can. Even with convert... man, I would NOT want to have to convert my health when the mob is only at half health.

[Issaac]

Why would you? I use Cure 3 as my main spell, Cure 2 if i know about a freaking spezial attack which force me to hold my tank complete healed over the whole fight.

A Redmage of same lvl can use also Cure 3 less effektiv as i and Cure 2 same effektiv as me. He has a little lower mana then me. So even if he heals with Cure 3 and only cures 178 instead of 190hp, its not a big issue with Refresh on him. After fight, when i am at 1/3 of my Mana he just use convert and is nearly Full mana again. You dont need 2 Redmages to compensate a white. One is more then enough. Sure a white mage is feelgood if you need a raise.

If you compare the mana/healed hp and the rest amount of mana after the fight, the redmage will always win. He may use more hp to heal same amount, but will end up with more mana then a white.

[imac2much]

So you're saying just because at YOUR level and in YOUR parties, RDM do better jobs than you, you consider RDM > WHM?

Wrong.

Refer to Icemage's post, there are several reasons why a WHM outedges a RDM in certain key aspects. One thing he failed to mention that really makes a difference at higher levels: Cure V generates LESS hate than Cure IV... a lot less. I read about this from some high level importers on this forum, then several level 60-70 WHMs and RDMs I've talked to in Midgardsormr confirmed this. They said they never get aggro if they slap on a Regen II/III and Cure V when a big special attack takes a chunk out of the tank's HP, but if they used Cure IV or DS+Cure IV in a similar situation they will certainly get aggro.

Also... what the heck do Reraise scrolls have anything to do with this? RDM can raise I too. The difference is that WHM can Raise II so that I lose only 750 xp and not 2250 xp. Yes, there's a noticeable difference.

Neither job is better than the other as a whole... like many others have stated, I prefer having both in my PTs. To say that a RDM > WHM in all instances is extremely shortsighted and narrow-minded.

[Azael]

As a rdm, i can say i do not think of my self as a better healer than a whm, not by a longshot. I can, if i need to be the pts only healer, if and only if the rest of their group can do their job perfectly. But as a RDM, my skills are ment for enfeebling and backup healing and refreshing mages. THAT is my job, i assist the whm and i know my role and thats how you make an efficient PT, whms get more spells earlier than RDM do, so it's really no use comparing them since their roles in group are very different. Rdm's can try to be WHM's but in esscence we're not, i'd much rather have a whm than a psuedowhm rdm in my pt at any rate. Just my opinon tho.

[Issaac]

Originally posted by imac2much
So you're saying just because at YOUR level and in YOUR parties, RDM do better jobs than you, you consider RDM > WHM?


No, i didnt said because of my lvl, i said at my lvl. I never talked about lvl 50+ or Cure V. How could i agrue about a spell i dont have. The reraise was a example to make clear that no raiser is needed in this "imagineable" group. Im quit sure that this RDM > WHM will turn around again once i get Cure V and raise 2, Regen 3 etc.

So dont read my post and think im talking about all lvls and all times, im only talking about lvl 41-50. Before lvl 41 reds are gimps anyway :p

[Pilsbane]

illusan, your view of redmages is skewed. Redmages are only good for speed casting? I guess Refresh is worthless to you, eh? You also use the 'Jack of all trades master of none' which is also false. Redmages are master of enfeebling. Being number 1 at enfeebling and number 2 at nuking and healing is pretty damn good for 'just a speed caster'.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Issaac


No, i didnt said because of my lvl, i said at my lvl.
...

So dont read my post and think im talking about all lvls and all times, im only talking about lvl 41-50. Before lvl 41 reds are gimps anyway :p

What the hell are you babbling? Nowhere in your post is there any disclaimer that says: "The following only applies for my level."

No, you say this:

Originally posted by Issaac
Accept everybody in the group would use a reraise scroll....

RED > WHITE

With convert and Refresh a RED does has about twice the mana of a WHITE. His heals are not that effective as the WHITE once so he ends up at maybe RED = 1.8 X WHITE.

You only need a White as feelgod for raise. Thats why they prey as hell that we never get our fingers on convert and refresh (if they would raise the lvl cap > 80).

Basically, you said RDM > WHM. You didn't say "at my level, RDM > WHM."

If you want people to know you're talking about level 41-50 gameplay, then say so. We're not mindreaders. Don't blame readers for misunderstanding your post, blame your poor presentation.

Your poor spelling and grammar notwithstanding, your reasoning doesn't even make sense. You keep talking about how WHM are just there for raises... but don't you realize RDM get's Raise before Refresh? I agree that at a certain level span a RDM can be just as effective as WHM, but then at later levels the balance shifts again. This is nothing out of the ordinary.. it's just like how *generally* SAM > DRK > DRG levels 30-48, DRG > SAM > DRK levels 49-59, DRK > DRG > SAM levels 60+. Obviously this isn't a failproof generalization, but if you argue from an ability and weapon skill standpoint, it's somewhat true.

Just the same, RDM become "godly" after they get convert and refresh, but there is no reason why you can't have both a RDM and WHM so that the WHM can also have refresh. RDM's also won't have nearly as much time to cure people since he'll be busy casting Refresh on the mages and paladin, enfeebles on the enemy, dispelling the monster, etc... Since you don't have enough time to spam cast lower level cures and have no access to Cure V, you'll have to throw on a *deadly* Cure IV to heal your tank, most likely getting some nasty aggro.

Don't get me wrong, I love both jobs... in fact, if you ask anyone in my LS, they'll all tell you that RDM is my *favorite* job. I think it is a great and very useful class, but I also think they work great in conjunction with a WHM in most cases. WHM are useful and good in their own right, and are not just "effektiv raise feelgods" as you seem to imply.

[Blondie boi]

I never knew that Enmity would play a big role in the WHM’s class, but now that I look at it I see that they get a lot of -enmity equipment. I also never knew that Cure V gets less hate then Cure IV. I might have also underestimated the Regen line of spells, this might because that at level 43 I am still using Regen I. It also makes vary little sense to have two RDM’s in a party. The WHM and RDM combo makes a lot more sense.

I guess that I was wrong to say that RDM’s are better healers, next time I will look into higher level Spells and Equipment before I post.

Thanks for showing me my own wrong.

[Peppara]

I prefer the WHM + RDM mix in a PT. Its just a great balanced combo :)

[Icemage]

Many players, even at high levels (particularly those who play exclusively in set parties) do not understand some of the subtle differences that occur as you go up in levels.

Traditional roles for RDM and WHM:

RDM: Enfeeble, Dispel, Refresh, backup heal, backup nuke

WHM: Heal, party buff, backup enfeeble

The factor of enmity is huge at higher levels. Take a look at the RDM arsenal and you'll see something very interesting.

A traditional RDM will:

Slow (moderate enmity)
Paralyze (moderate enmity)
Gravity (moderate enmity)
Sometimes Dia II/Bio II (moderate enmity)
Refresh (low enmity)
Cure III (moderate enmity) (rarely)
Activate Convert (low enmity)
Cast nuking spells for magic burst (high enmity)

This means that in this style of RDM will accumulate very low amounts of enmity overall, even if they attack with a weapon.

A traditional WHM will:

Regen I/II/III (low enmity)
Cure III (moderate enmity) (very frequently)
Cure IV (high enmity) (rarely)
Cure V (moderate enmity) (depends on group/level)
Flash (high enmity) (frequently)
Activate Divine Seal (low enmity, but doubles the enmity of next spell)
Cast Curaga I/II/III (high enmity)

Smart WHM rely on their low-enmity tools (Regen I/II/III) as much as possible, and pull out the big guns (Flash, Cure IV, Divine Seal, and Benediction) only at critical moments. The ones that don't are the ones who you see lying dead after a fight. To assist in this, WHM AF gives WHM a huge edge in decreased enmity.

Now... lets look at the RDM who decides to be primary healer:

Slow (moderate enmity)
Paralyze (moderate enmity)
Gravity (moderate enmity)
Sometimes Dia II/Bio II (moderate enmity)
Refresh (low enmity)
Cure III (moderate enmity) (frequently)
Activate Convert (low enmity)
Regen I (low enmity)
Cast nuking spells for magic burst (high enmity)
Cure IV (high enmity) (rarely)
Curaga (if /WHM) (high enmity)

Look at how many spells the healer RDM has to cast. Not only is that a LOT of spells to deal with, but the RDM is racking up enmity like crazy. So... now the RDM has a lot of enmity, and is almost guaranteed to get hit. What does he do?

If he's smart, the healer RDM will:
Phalanx
Stoneskin
Blink

But now you're talking about a huge list of spells that the RDM has to cast. There just isn't enough time to cast all of those spells all the time, and even the extra MP you get from using Convert won't cover the MP expenditure for long. On top of that, because the healer RDM has so much enmity, Convert becomes a very dangerous move in clutch situations, since casting Cure III or IV on yourself after Converting, instead of being a no-brainer for the RDM, becomes an invitation to die.

People need to look past the numbers and really SEE how these things work in practice. For the above reasons, RDM primary healer parties are almost always bad. The only way it really works is if you have 2 RDM (a VERY rare sight, though I've seen it a couple times) to share the enmity, and even then, if you have 2 RDM, you're STILL better off with a WHM + RDM combination.


Icemage

[Coinspinner]

Do WHM really use Flash? I know that it's a very powerful version of Blind and PLD love it to build up Enmity and reduce the damage they take... but is the blindness really sorth the enmity for a WHM?

[Navia]

I haven't bought flash yet since i'm normally partied with a PLD that uses it liberally to gain enmity. When and why would a whm use this spell?

[Issaac]

Originally posted by imac2much
Your poor spelling and grammar notwithstanding,


Im sorry, i should had been more attentive in school. Im german, thats my only excuse.

[zaldane]

my exp has been and i love reds in party, that trying to stay on top of refresh and debuffs/dispell takes alot of there time. you really need a dedicated healer to keep exp going.

i use flash alot, has very fast cast time.

[Yuanlung]

RDM maybe able to fill in as the healer, but they can never be the healer that WHM can be. It's even more farfetched to come out and say RDM>WHM.

Since many have already listed out the advantage of WHM in the curative department, I'd like to comment about the status restoring spells, or know as the -na line.

Ever died the slow, agonizing death to the poison of a crawler? got blinded? slowed? CURSED? or got any other annoyng bad status that you wish you didn't get? guess what? you are in need of a white mage.

The status restoring spells are availible exclusively to white mages. Sure that RDM can sub WHM and get access to these spells, but like anything /WHM, you get them at twice the level.

This isn't a significant advantage, just another thing to concider when you feel like ditching the WHM because you got a RDM in your party. Then again you could always just buy items that do the same or just tough it out, as a certain WAR often said after a crawler poison: "I'll walk it off.", which has also become his famous last words. :biggrin:

[Rawls]

wouldn't it be alright to say that once a RDM gains convert and refresh and a WHM gets all the good spells of the same level that RDMs=WHMs. Since in order to be truely effective in chaining a WHM is reliant on a RDM for refresh. While, as Icemage stated, a RDM doing its job w/ debuffing, enfeebles etc. wouldn't have time to keep up with healing, or at least not without gaining an extreme amount of aggro...

[Deodorant]

Also refresh isn't quite the super-killer-one-spell-owns-all-others that some people seem to think it is. In a 3-mage and paladin party, any rdm will tell you that keeping all 4 constantly refreshed takes a big bite out of your mp. Example being that in-between mob pulls, the whm and blm can sit and rest, but the rdm often finds himself having to stand and recast refresh every mp tick, which ruins his mp regen rate.

This often results in the rdm's mp levels lagging behind the other two mages, because he is basically sacrificing his mp regen to speed up others. Most of the time this isn't a problem, because typically by the time rdm's mp bar empties convert reuse timer is up. However, if you expect an rdm to do main healer duties in addition to everything he normally does, that mp balance is going to go out the window.

Besides, most rdm's I know don't like being pushed into healer role - we'll take on main healer job if we have to, but we're much happier doing what our job was designed to do.

[Rones]

I'm not nearly high enough lvl, but can't whms get refresh clothing anyway to conteract the rdms advantage with the refresh spell?

[Miriamel]

There are certain clothes that give you a "refresh" affect at level 60+, but

a) those only refresh 1MP/3 seconds and
b) they stack with redmage refresh. ^^

[Shiia]

Rdm as main healer post 41 is a nightmare :sweat: . The past 2 days I was primal healer of the group, adding to the fact that one of the group didn't quite helped me in heals...

I already have enough spells to cast during battle. Being main healer will push my casting further. Like Icemage stated I usually cast:

Paralise
Slow
Blind
Gravity
DiaII/BioII (If necesary)
Refresh
Regen
Haste

Adding to the list above I need to toss CureII and IIIs. Convert doesn't become available for like 3 fights on a fast paced group. My mp is usually 0 at the time I can re use convert :dead: . Whm as a healer is much effective after RegenII really... 12hp per tick is very very nice heal spell...

[Asharu]

The best parties I have been in always include a red mage. I would always take a red mage over a white mage if I have the chance. Red mage is just too uber with refresh alone, and throwing in convert pretty much allows no rest time. Spells like Regen II and Regen III are great spells, but all the extra mp you get from a RDM's refresh and convert totally overpowers regen. Simply put, WHMs are only good for raising at high levels. It's sad that WHMs lose popularity once you start grouping with red mages 41+.

As for party formations, RDM+WHM are good to have in a party, but RDM+BLM is just too sweet. (This is risky though if a member of the party dies since there won't be a raise 2 or 3.) BLMs can cure just as well as a WHM (excluding regen), and can do massive damage with MBs. BRD+RDM+BLM... *drool*.

[Issaac]

Originally posted by Shiia
Rdm as main healer post 41 is a nightmare :sweat: . The past 2 days I was primal healer of the group, adding to the fact that one of the group didn't quite helped me in heals...

I already have enough spells to cast during battle. Being main healer will push my casting further. Like Icemage stated I usually cast:

Paralise
Slow
Blind
Gravity
DiaII/BioII (If necesary)
Refresh
Regen
Haste

Adding to the list above I need to toss CureII and IIIs. Convert doesn't become available for like 3 fights on a fast paced group. My mp is usually 0 at the time I can re use convert :dead: . Whm as a healer is much effective after RegenII really... 12hp per tick is very very nice heal spell...


As main healer of the group you would not debuff that much. You cant do both.

Take a 41 human white mage and a 41 human redmage with refresh and convert. Only thing you need to do now is - compare the maximum amouint of hitpoints both can heal with their overall mana -> RDM win.

But before i get hang up as high as possible, i prefer white mage as main also (even if i am on my mules or other jobs). Because he did nothing else then heal for 41 lvls so he normaly knows what he do. whm/rdm or whm/brd is the way to go.

But you can easily go with rdm/rdm or rdm/brd without any problems if you realy take the rdm as healer exclusivly. And no im not talking about lvl 50+.

[illusan]

Maybe I should have said not 50+, because I was in a rush to write the post. When I said RDM could fill most parts I meant they could do a little debuff and still heal at the same time (i'm a taru rdm) but most of the time I am only needing to do 2 or 3 debuff spells so my mana isn't really affected. I've been played as healer/ debuff and a replacement for WHM (below LV50). Every class is good... I too also find WHM + RDM in a party makes the party even better.