Do you feel guilt on PT member death(s)?

[MELAZOMA]

I've vowed to be a WHM since beta on PS2, just started from scratch on the PC 2 weeks ago.

WHM is to help other people--it's a way of life, we get rewarded for it in forms of skill-up by Protect'ing and Cure'ing strangers, and many PT invites.

And with such responsibility comes great satifaction and--at least for me--guilt and feeling of inadaquecy.

My occasional being a lone WHM taking care of a PT of six--IT Exp'ers-- keeps me on my toes at all times. There's always that mob's critical hit that throws me off.

"Should I use Cure II or I?"

Not to mention targeting your own PT member is nigh impossible in highly camped hunting grounds. (Never liked the F Keys....) I can manage to--sometimes barely--keep everybody alive. It's a moment's slip-up that hits me, and my PT the hardest; and whether or not a death is actually my fault, it'll feel like some how, I've failed.

There's me as a WHM ^_^ What about you?

[cloud_nine]

A party where there is only one healer is a party that is taking great risks~~

If I ever found myself in that situation, I would ask the party leader to invite another player who can support me in healing and debuffing. If they can't find one or won't, I will take my leave. Simple as that~ ^^

No matter how good you may be, there are limits to what a white mage at your level can do~~

In most cases for partying, there should always be a backup healer just in case unexpected things happen (and they always do) like an AoE attacks, critical hits, linked monsters, etc.


Having a cure macro for all your party members <p1> through <p6> works miracles in keeping your party alive. 2 seconds between a cure can mean life or death for a melee character in the red. If you're still cycling through other players in the field, you really need to change your macros =\

Example
/ma "Cure II" <p2>
Effect - cast cure 2 on party member 3. No cycling or targeting needed.

Playing as a white mage you will understand how critical your role is in the party. You have to be efficient with your heals otherwise your entire party can suffer from your mistakes.


[edit]

oh, as to whether I feel guilty when a member dies, it depends on how he died, his hp before he died, and was it preventable.

If he died in a case where my heals couldn't keep up, then no I won't feel guilty since I completed my role the best I can. However, If I was skimping on my duties as a healer, then yes I would feel guilty =)

[lionx]

Pretty much the same, if they die i feel like i failed them. Tho sometimes its obvious that people die for one reason or another like a train or Wights or some crap like that. But when ur busy curing another and just about the time u pull off the CureIII he dies on u...makes u feel kinda bad...=/ But i know stuff happens...but still anyone dying, my fault or not makes it not cool for everyone to some degree, WHM or not.

[Iyo]

I HATE when someone dies on my watch (as long as they weren't being stupid and brought it down on themselves that is).

I've gotten lucky pulling off a "Divine Seal" with a Curaga to keep the group up (thankfully)...

I usually try to make sure I fall as long as the others live... Last night I died 3 times... Funny the group was mostly JP players, with only one EN (who was really messing up and the cause of 2 of my 3 deaths)...

And something finally occured to me... IT'S A GAME... *lol* Shesh, what took so long for that to become obvious.

Have FUN--play on and forget it. Besides, once you're lvl 25, you can start bring them back!

Can't wait until I'm no longer neutered without raise! HA!

[angelbear894]

one thing man it's a game they can respawn geez also if i am ever in your party and i die and u feel bad about it and i KNOW it's not your fault i will leave the party.. if i am leader i would kick you out of the party all i ask is u relax play the game and do your best if somebody dies they die heck i will die to keep u alive just how i play if i fail well i did try =) if u see me when i get the game join up with me i wont ever get mad.. u would have to TRY hard to get me mad so why feel bad if nobody is mad *****oh fyi if u are trying and they still get mad get another party i hate those type of ppl take a GAME way to for real man******

[Icemage]

It is possible, if you are Tarutaru or perhaps Hume/Mithra with EXCELLENT gear, to be the only player in a party who can heal, but you have to stay on top of things - watch your MP consumption, keep people topped up, and make SURE you stick your Enfeebles (Slow and Paralyze in particular).

Even so, it's almost never a good idea - parties with only one healer have enormous downtime - its worth your time to get a backup healer.


Icemage

[Khaelyn]

Yeah, I feel guilty. I know I shouldn't, but yeah...

It's part of what makes a person play a WHM, I think.

[Shuyin]

the thing that i REALLY hate about being a whm is if your party is right by other people that are also fighting and some one dies in that other unknown party and they start yelling and swearing at you because you wouldnt heal them. geex, people dont understand that whm have an obligation to their own party befor any body else!

[Peppara]

I feel guilty if its my fault definately. But most times its because the player was an idiot that they die. At least in the lower levels.

[Stormwalker]

I feel a great deal of responsiblity for the people in my party, whether I'm playing as a WHM or a PLD. In both cases, it's my job to keep people alive, and if someone dies in my party I feel responsible for it.

However, sometimes there are circumstances where I really don't feel guilty at all. Usually this is when someone has done something to bring it on themselves, or when the party is blatantly ignoring my advice. And sometimes, there's just nothing you can do. I mean, when someone trains six Goblin Smithys on your level 29 party, somebody's probably going to die despite your best efforts.

One of the hardest decisions I find to make, especially as a WHM, is... at what point do you break and run? I certainly don't want to abandon my party when things go badly, but there is a point where nothing you can do will save them. Having played both sides of the healer/tank equation, my rule is usually this. As the tank, I will not run until everyone else does, and even then I will attempt to hold aggro as best I can until everyone else is safe or I am dead. As a healer, I will stay until the tank says to run... and at that point I *will* cast invisible on myself and escape as best I can, because if *I* was the tank, that's what I'd want my healer to do.

[edit]

As a note, though, if the tank is running for zone as well, I'll run with him and cure him as much as I can without stealing aggro from him, or until I run out of MP, and then I'm gone. However, as a WHM when all hell has broken loose, I have a certain responsibility to stay alive, because if anyone *else* dies, I'm the one who can raise them.

[mlwolfinger]

As a white mage panic is your worst enemy. A great white mage is someone who can remain calm even when the party is against the ropes and you know it's going to be a close one. If you panic and make a mistake in that situation (hit the wrong macro, target the wrong character, etc.) then you've failed. In that situation it is appropriate to feel guilt, in fact, it shows that you care about your performance. Just remember that everyone who has played white mage for a decent amount of time has been there too and try to get better so it doesn't happen again.

[Issaac]

Do you feel guilt on PT member death(s)?


It depends.

1) When we fought Exorays for genkai 1 i lost my paladin to two spore attack which came both one after the other. I had not a single chance to do anything. I dont feal guilty.

2) When we fought ants in Quciksand i lost the "is no longer silented" message in battle spam and my paladin was killed by a single spell of the ant (860 dmg). I felt a bit guilty because its my job to get these text lines and refresh silent

3) when we did mission 9 for Rank 4 we had two guests with us which where in my party (not in the main alliance). I suggested then to remove two members out of the alliance and change the guests into so we just need to fight the named giant one more time. So did we and while i looked the chat (because i asked which two i had to invite now) Tresetta, a guild member of me died to a giant because i was so busy chating because i didnt found the two i needed to invite that i didnt watched the hitpoint bars (i also didnt expected a fight, we just killed the named). I felt very very guilty.

[Miriamel]

Originally posted by Icemage
It is possible, if you are Tarutaru or perhaps Hume/Mithra with EXCELLENT gear, to be the only player in a party who can heal, but you have to stay on top of things - watch your MP consumption, keep people topped up, and make SURE you stick your Enfeebles (Slow and Paralyze in particular).

Even so, it's almost never a good idea - parties with only one healer have enormous downtime - its worth your time to get a backup healer.


Icemage

While I agree with the second part of what you say, I don't agree with the first part. It's possible for every race to be the only healer (I've been in that situation a couple of times), but it'll cause downtime no matter what.

I have been in the situation where the only two mages were me and a BLM/NIN, hence we had no second healer and we were doing ITs in Gustav Tunnel. We had downtime, but no one died.

Oh and by the way, in that party I replaced a JP Galkan WHM who had to log.

The racial MP differences aren't really that much of a problem as you seem to make it look like. At first (at around lv20) I was really worried about my Elvaan, especially after reading posts by you, you were/are much more experienced afterall and I value your help on most topics here.

But unless things will change drastically in the next 15 levels, my Elvaan will have no trouble whatsoever with her MP pool.

[Icemage]

Not to disagree with you Miriamel, because what you said is true, but Gustav Tunnel and Garlaige Citadel are pretty much the only places where you can get away with a single healer. The reason? Single bats. As far as I know, those are the only two zones in the entire game that feature single bats in quantity without huge numbers of linking triple bats, which is important since they are the only creature type that has zero dangerous attacks (in fact, the only special attack they have that deals damage is Blood Drain, which isn't terribly effective).

If you're levelling on Siege Bats or Hell Bats or some variant thereof, you won't need more than one healer since they deal minimal damage, and any healer will do (you don't even need a WHM really - in fact, Red Mages are strictly superior in both locations to White Mages).

If you start fighting things that have area attacks (Fly), big damage criticals (Beetles), or significant damage special attacks (Spider), having a single healer is a very bad idea. It becomes a huge drain on MP, and you simply can't cast faster than the damage rolls in without drawing aggro, no matter how fast you can cast or how powerful your spells.

In the case of a high-MP healer(Hume, Mithra, Tarutaru with good gear), you can use your defensive spells to offset the attacks which are sent your way for at least a short time. However, I can tell you from personal experience that no matter what race you are, getting hit more than 3 or 4 times in a fight is deadly. Without having a *lot* of extra MP to burn on Blink/Stoneskin, you're running a very high chance of getting killed if you're the only healer.

I've been a lone healer a few times when someone (usually the red mage or bard) has left a group and we are doing some light XP while waiting for a replacement, but it's risky even when you do everything right, and I will often burn through most of my MP during even XP chain #1s (741 MP at level 57, modified by whatever food I happen to be consuming). I honestly can't imagine trying to do so as Elvaan or Galka without a constant supply of juice (which is problematic in itself since you don't really have time to sit and synth while XPing as a mage) + /SMN25 sub for Auto-Refresh.

---

Getting back on topic, the whole guilt issue is really a personal decision. I really only feel guilty if it was due to a bad decision I made (i.e. I choose to cast Regen II on the main tank who is yellow, and don't notice that the BLM is suddenly pulling aggro from casting Water III and they die before I can finish casting Regen II and toss a Cure at them). I do my best to avoid making mistakes like that though - if I'm not feeling up to par enough to make sure I pay attention, I'll usually log out or go do something less demanding like craft instead of putting people at risk.

I never feel guilty if someone dies because of THEIR bad decision (had a RDM die on me the other day because she used an area effect WS at the end of a skillchain by accident and drew 3 monsters on her).

Also, sometimes there simply isn't anything you can do - I had a Tarutaru PLD die on me once from a 703 damage Sickle Scythe from a Sand Spider. Went from full HP to dead in less than 5 seconds. Not a thing I could have done - therefore no guilt.


Icemage

[Miriamel]

Originally posted by Icemage

If you're levelling on Siege Bats or Hell Bats or some variant thereof, you won't need more than one healer since they deal minimal damage, and any healer will do (you don't even need a WHM really - in fact, Red Mages are strictly superior in both locations to White Mages).


All we ever did in there was Goblins (Bomb Toss) and Flies (AoE).

My MP is currently at 434, and in my party yesterday I had more MP than the Hume BLM (who had a SMN sub but, of course, had crap equipment). I will never be able to outdo a Taru, but my MP pool is equal to most Humes/Mithras I come across.

You play a Taru - good on you, I wish I would have made that choice back then, but that also means you don't know the other side of the coin, i.e, what it is like to play an Elvaan or Galka.

While I strongly dislike being the only healer, because it puts a harsh stop to chaining further than #2 AND it's always a huge risk, it's possible.

I think we can just settle on the fact that it's a bad idea for any race, though. :P

[Coinspinner]

Do you feel guilt on PT member death(s)?

Only if it's my fault. It's usually not.

[CoalChamber]

When i join a PT I feel a certain responsability to keep them alive. That's what they invited me for. Even if I'm not a WHM.I've sacrificed myself over and over again to save my PTs. I remember in Qufim once we got nabbed by a Wight or something and the WHM had to use benediction as we all ran to the zone. I realized if I didn't do something we would all die. So I hit my provoke macro (I'm a DRG/WAR) and told them to run. Luckily I was able to provoke off of Benediction, a rare thing. I've only been able to do it about 3 times. And I fought that damn wight to the death, well, my death at least. I didn't even really dent the Wight;s HP. =P But it gave my PT the time they needed to get away. Even though I'm not a WHM I always feel kinda guilty when a PT member dies.

[Quezi]

For the 6 years i have been playing mmorpgs, almost all of that time i have been the healer, the 20% or so that i am not, i am usualy a pure support class, buffing/debuffing/crowd controll type things. I consider myself a healer.

What usualy bothers me with people in general, is they tend to give healers alot more room to mess up in. Most everyone else will get a hard time if they mess up, but a healer can verry frequently get away with being a clueless idiot. People just dont care becaus you NEED a healer, and due to the fact that healers are nowhere near the most flashy or exiteing role they are far more rare, hence people are happy just to HAVE one so they can go get some exp, as bad exp with idiots is sadley better than no exp at all.

Now when i say idiot, do not confuse that with a newbie. A newbie is someone who knows that they dont know what they are doing, an idiot is someone who lacks the common sense to realise they are screwing up, and an ass is someone who knows and just doesnt care.

Please remember that in the end, everyone is playing support. When you are in a PT, you are supporting everyone else. A tank supports with tanking, a damage dealer supports with damage. It all goes to the betterment of the party, and every skills is needed by everyone else in order to get what is desired, exp. Every single stat and ability and variable, all belong to everyone else with you, your job is to use that wich you have controll over the best it can be used. And truley remember this, you do not own your charicter when you join a PT, it owns you, you become part of a single thing, composed of several parts. You MUST also become part of a single MIND, or you will fail.

It is then, not a healers job to 'keep everyone alive', but to do their part. That part includes healing. But you should never be expected to save people from their own stupidity. Let people who bring death upon themselves die. They will learn from it and be better in the end.

So as far as guilt goes. If i mess up and do not do my job, nomatter what class i am, i feel bad. I try to learn from my mistake. I do not feel like a failure for the rest of the day, this will just make you mess up more. Instead of dwelling on how you are such a terrible healer, identify what happend and how you will deal with it next time.

In the end you can stop thinking, experiance is all it requires, eventualy the interface between you and the game breaks down and only the game remains. All variables are visable to you, and as they go around you, you manipulate their flows and tides directly. Its nothing you havnt seen before, you know what has happend, what is happening, and that wich will happen. At that point you cant 'mess up' becaus its second nature.

[Sinzer]

Heh, I rarely feel guilty cos in my limited experience of WHM, I have found I am always the first to go!

Although, I never pull aggro off the tank, due to good use of healing, I usually find that benediction is just a death warrant!

Save the PT ohhh I die again, I look forward to returning to THF and Bard when I can just run off into the sunset!

Hehe

[Issaac]

Benediction loose a lot of its fear in higher lvls. I normaly run away after i used it (when zone is near). Or i just stay and heal/die. But since lvl 40 or so, i never died again to benediction. The group was always able to get agro back. Also Curega isnt much a problem even in mid combat situations. I didnt tried (and will not) Curega 2...but 1 - as a fast healer, drains not that much hate.

[specular]

Had an incident yesterday, where a PT member got bombed by a special attack for 278 points (fighting Pugils at LV24). We had been chaining them for a good hour and then this. Although I appologized, I didn't feel guilt.

A day before that, someone else got hit by a special attack and died. But he could've made it if I hadn't casted Slow instead of a simple Cure I ... my bad! >_<

[myndreach]

Originally posted by MELAZOMA
[B]Not to mention targeting your own PT member is nigh impossible in highly camped hunting grounds. (Never liked the F Keys....)[B]

make a macro for your number keys so you jus thit control+1-5

1 being first PT member other than you 5 being last

macro is...

/ma Cure <p1>

or p2, p3, p4, p5...simple then you dont have to target them just hit conrol+key you assign to each one! :thumbsup:

[Stormwalker]

Originally posted by specular
Had an incident yesterday, where a PT member got bombed by a special attack for 278 points (fighting Pugils at LV24). We had been chaining them for a good hour and then this. Although I appologized, I didn't feel guilt.

Ah, Screwdriver. After a while, you learn to anticipate this, but it certainly comes as a nasty surprise the first few times. When fighting Pugils, you have to be really careful to keep your tank's HP as close to full as is practical.

[Sugarloaf]

I will always feel bad from someone dying really my fault or not. It was a bloodbath in quifim the other night, and once i hit 25 i raised about 15 people in less than 1 hour, so I imagine I will feel better about my whm from now on..after all it is my job to be nice and save people ^^


btw: don't you get a certain status if you raise enough people from the dead that are not in your party?

[MELAZOMA]

Can't believe the crazy rant of a starting WHM is still here after a month...

I'm now 27 and Raising bodies left and right. I do still have people die on my watch--sometimes my fault, sometimes not. I've learned to deal w/ it though.

Still, every party experience for me has been incredibly straining whether or not rogue elements are in a party. I usually ask to leave after one or two lvls...

In any case, thanks^_^

Sincerely,