Provoking

[Seraphin]

Just a question out ther for those who have been playing a while... I have some japanese friends who provoke by trading off vokes every 15 seconds back and fourth between two tanks...

However, most americans I play with like to just voke when ever the enemy looks at mage... Problem with this is often times you will have all 3-4 tanks voke at the same time and so when you really need it, they are all like "x more seconds!"

Which do you think is better?

[The Heretic]

Warriors have a prety simple job, and most people are pathetic at it.

Provoke, provoke, provoke. Dont stop. Ever. If your dying, dont stop. If your dead, dont stop. The general idea? Dont stop.

A warriors duty extends beyond provoking, if the party overestimates itself, a warrior is expected to provoke the monster and run away from the Party, to give the others a chance to escape.

Thats the way it is. Alot of warriors I know refuse to A) provoke B) Die for their Party.

Needless to say, they are all blacklisted.

If your a warrior, Defend your party at any cost.

[Hadoken]

On the other hand, my understanding is that while all hate decreases over time, hate generated by provoke decreases a little faster. (See "Hate Control FAQ" on Gamefaqs.) I can't say for sure that this is 100% true, but whether it is true or not, I see absolutely no possible advantage of all the tanks provoking every 30 seconds at the same time instead of all the tanks provoking every 30 seconds at different intervals (like 2 tanks 15 seconds apart).

But the more common strategy seems to be one main tank who provokes at the start of combat and every 30 seconds, and a secondary tank who immediately provokes if the mob ever goes for the backrow people.

[aszid]

from my experience... i think the best way for it to be done is to have one main tank, that provokes as often as possible (every 30 seconds) and the other wars just 'voke if the enemy goes for the mages.

when it's done that way the main tank very seldom loses hate, even when i'm doing cure2's. and also, if he does lose hate, or starts getting hurt pretty bad, there's other vokers to take it.

i like it this way best, cause i'm playin a whm. it's really best for the person with the best def to take tha majority of the damage, that way it conserves my mp, and also makes it easier to heal.

[Ghostraven]

IMO there should only be ONE tank, and one emergency person with provoke in the PT. The ideal Tank (pld) eats defense food, has the best Defensive gear for their level, and uses defense abilities as much as possible. This way the other people can worry about sticking to one job each. Enfeebs, melee damage, Backline damage, etc.

An I deal PT will have at least 2 backliners, 1 tank, and 2 damage dealers. Why should I as a drk have to worry about cancelling berserk because the tank is losing aggro? Sure it happens, but the idea is to have 6 jobs each doing something specific for the PT. RDM is the only class that should really be multitasking imo.:thumbsup:

[Gauvain]

I have followed the advice of provoking as soon as it is ready.

However, that is NOT always a good thing to do.

3 exemples :

- 2 attackers excluding yourself are doing a Skillchain. You provoke during their skillchain, messing it up.

- You have a thief in your party, readying Sneak attack, and you provoke when he does it so that he doesn't see the back of the ennemy anymore. Sneak attack wasted.

- You are grouping with a paladin that is the assigned tank, and your def is lower then his. Provoking and taking it off him might give a harder time to your healers having to keep switching target and you taking more damage then the paladin would have.

From what I learned, I will provoke whenever no skillchain are ready, no sneak attack are ready, and the paladin's health is yellow or red. If paladin is indeed in group, he will be provoking non-stop and that should be enough, and it will be understood that my provoke is the last resort for if he loses aggro, or if his health is dangerously low. If I notice that my defense is just as good as his, and I'm not messing up anything, I will provoke more often if that is ok with the group.

[Gauvain]

As a response to Heretic, I tend to agree with you about dying for your party. As a warrior you should always watch for other members. In a situation where mages are running out of mp, and youre taking a provoke order to conserve everyones hp at a decent level, then your mates hp is getting low, you must provoke, whatever your own hp is.

Yesterday I was in Qufim and a situation like that happened. Our samurai and myself died because we took the aggro on ourselves to save the group, who had just the time to finish the monster after our deaths. This happened after maybe 15 min of hunting. However, we walked back and re-joined the group and kept hunting for 6 hours with NO problem at all, and I gained 2 levels in the process.

Losing a little exp should not be a concern for a good warrior, it is part of your job, and your group will respect you for it and help you even more after. Besides if you're inexperienced and make a few mistakes, people will be very less harsh on you if they know you saved their lives a few times.

[Seraphin]

So far I have agreed with the fact that, yes, a warrior's primary focus is to keep the enemy in his own face and away from his team. This is not just for warrior however, but any good tank, eg. Paladin. However a certain little phrase made me urk a little... and that was the phrase:
"Warriors have a prety simple job, and most people are pathetic at it."

The reason people are pathetic at it is because they are under that impression, that it is an easy job. While for the most part you can just do your role of "stab stab stab, provoke every 30 seconds, keep everyone up"

However, a GOOD warrior does more than that. A good warrior knows how to adjust his parties skill chains into an effective assault on the enemy. A good warrior will keep his party informed of his TP as often as possible. A good warrior will always be as best equiped as possible and know exactly how to work with what he is givin. Now, this can be said of all classes, so why is the warrior any different? Because people DONT do those things... People just treat it as "Well, im just a warrior, I just have to swing at it and use my Weapon Skills!".

Point and case is: Warriors are not nearly as "Simple" as people would like to believe.

~Seraphin

[Millay]

I agree with Seraphim. A warrior is a lot more than just provoking and slashing. A good warrior should be the leader of the skillchain, directing what kind of weapon skills to use. If something goes awry, like an IT that is too hard, and not everyone is at 100% TP to chain, then the warrior needs to come up with an alternate skillchain at that moment. Not only that, but they should be the judge in whether to flee, or stay and fight since they are the ones taking the hate.

Why should the Warrior or Paladin die for the party if another person in the party isn't doing his or her job? If repeatedly the group is messing up, the burden of their mistakes should not be put upon the Paladin or Warrior. Not to mention I have been in a group where I died saving them, and they just disbanded afterwards not helping me find a raise. If you ask me, a lot of times it isn't the Warrior or Paladin that is pathetic, but rather the whole group and it's dynamic.

But of course I'll always try to help whoever, as it is my duty as a Paladin ;)

[The Heretic]

Warrior is simple job in comparison to other jobs bar 1 or 2. And while I somewhat agree with your statements, you comments about "Keeping your party up to date on TP" is as simple as pressing alt-x.

Organising Renkei is pretty simple as well. For example:

Ok guys, MNKboy starts us up with a Combo, I jump in with a Fast blade and Daggerweilderx01 finishes it off with a Wasp Sting. BLMbigboomer jumps in with a Magic Burst accordingly.

Is WAR a simple Job, perhaps not.

Is it one of the simplest jobs? Yes.

[Arctyc]

Originally posted by The Heretic
Organising Renkei is pretty simple as well. For example:

Ok guys, MNKboy starts us up with a Combo, I jump in with a Fast blade and Daggerweilderx01 finishes it off with a Wasp Sting. BLMbigboomer jumps in with a Magic Burst accordingly.


Am I the only one amused at the irony here?

[Seraphin]

I think it be best left at this, unless someone else disagrees with me. I belive that the act of setting up skillchains is not REALLY difficult, and of course there are lots of nice little charts to be found across the internet that you can print out to help you. I myself have a nice little full color one that is labled by an elemental blast effect of each property. However simple the class may be for some people, it can still be rather challenging for new players, especially those who have not played a MMORPG before where you are heavily relying on your teammates. It is in that person's perspective that I place my judgement of the game's learning curve. If I were looking for a job that I personally see as simplistic in nature I would go Blackmage. Now, some of you will probably rush to say that the BM isnt simple, but beyond learning every spell available, keeping yourself equiped to have the highest INT possible and making sure you dont over cast and piss off the monster too much (get too much agro), what else is there?

Warrior is not the easiest job in my own opinion from what I have experienced. Ive had a much easier time playing as a Black Mage and a Monk, if not just for the fact that fighting is easier, but finding groups becomes less of a challenge when you are the minority... Unfortunately, there are TONS of warriors everywhere I go... and because of that, its often very hard to get into a good group. That alone could be why I consider War one of the less easy classes.

~Seraphin

[Millay]

Heretic,

Initially, yes, the skillchain is very easy to set up, but for me, and I dont' know about other people out there that are warriors, I keep all my weapon skills macroed, just in case there is the off chance that something does go wrong and the skill chain needs to be altered. In those brief few seconds where it does count and the PT is in trouble, the warrior should reorganize the skill chain so that whoever has avaliable TP to create a new skill chain, does so. The warrior creates a new skill chain within a few seconds.

Warriors and paladins play an integral part into the party dynamic. Without a warrior that doesn't provoke and keep the hate off others, the party will more thank likely fall apart. But that is just a basic of their job. As I have stated before, they are the leaders when it comes to melee, being about to create skillchains on the go, and more than often be able to communicate with the red mage, black mage, or bard about the possible magic bursts too. Most of the time this situation does not occur, but I would say it does happen to all of us ever so often.

Out of all the melee jobs, I would say the warrior has the hardest job if he or she is to perform it well. And on top of that Paladins should be using Shield Bash to prevent baddies' weapons skills too, not to mention healing while attack, avoiding getting hit while the baddie is attacking the Paladin.

Try playing a Paladin for awhile. You will see that Paladins have to understand the Renkei, not only keeping track of other people's TP, but they have to tank, making sure all the hate is upon them, and make sure that nobody is low on health. They do all that, and are still expected to die for the group when something goes wrong. How many melee players have to actually stare at the Party's HP and MP meters, and keep tabs on everyone's TP? As far as I know there isn't any.

[Issaac]

Provokate when its ready and best is tell it your party when you use it. Both, when i play my white mage and my black mage i love when the main tank has a macro which tells me when he use it and a "15 seconds to provokate".


1) In lower lvls, when the main tank is a warrior, i had always 2 free cures before the monster is switching to me. So i was able to coordinate the heals after the provocate (if monster dmg output allow).

2) As a Black mage i have to wait at least 2 provokates before i can make dmg. Casting before the second will turn mob on me. Doesnt matter which one. I tested even "Water" and it turned to me. After the second i can nearly chain cast "Thunder" and "Blizzard" without getting agro.

For both jobs, i need this message (or have a close look on the battlespam) and i realy hate warrior (or better tanks) who just provokate when the mob is running.

As a white mage there is nothing more nuts like a running sheep or mandraga or gob...<fill in random Area of Effekt able monster>. But i have to admit the last tank i lvled with which only provokated when the mob was turning to the mages was at lvl 30white/15 black.

[The Heretic]

Since when did Organising Renkei become a warriors job? In my experience, anyone in the Party can orgainise it, and if youve got a Samurai in your party, well, then, step aside please.

And yes, I (now reading back over it) am finding the irony humorous as well.

What proof have you given that a warrior is the "Hardest Melee Class". A paladin uses sheild bash. Whoa! Alt 5, man, im glad that guys a quick thinker. Instantly change the Renkei? A) Since when has a warrior Turned into a Samurai and B) This is any other melee's responsibility as well.

Provoke, Alt 4, Ownage! While some good points have come up, im still not convinced that being a warrior is hard at all.

[falloutboy14]

I'm a paladin, and trust me, I've organized renkeis. It wasn't my job necessarily, but I did it. We were close to dieing, I was ready, and the dragoon was ready, the third wasn't. So I called out raiden thrust, and followed it with RLB. That was enough to kill it.

As far as the most difficult, I'm willing to bet any amount of money that I use more skills (magic and job ability) then any other melee. I need to keep track of hate, be aware of that thief sneak attacking, or the drk with souleator and scroing 300hp. Cause that means I need to get some quick hate for myself, or get ready to cover. Then of course provoke, which believe it or not, isn't that easy to keep track of. With your other tasks (asking for a refresh, TP check, and then of course timing your Cure's to go in between the monster's hits) is easy to lose track of.

[Loial]

A tank's job is to protect mages, etc from being hit, period. It really stinks when you have to die because of someone else's poor decision to pull or someone being afk w/o notifying the party. However, when I am in a group with guildies, I got no problem doing everything I can to prevent them from dying.

The thing I dislike about that philosophy, but deal with it anyway, is that I've fallen behind in levels in comparison to other members of my guild due to this. This has ultimately lead to my ability to tank to decrease. So, even though I die, run back, and we kill lots of stuff anyway, this will still lead to me having to get a party on my own at some later time to make up the lost experience.

As for skillchains, it comes in pretty handy if the party is in trouble, and one member of the party is either down or lacking TP to make up a chain "on-the-fly" that saves the party. Is this a warrior/tank's job? Doesn't really matter. When I'm tanking with my warrior, and we are planning to be fighting gobbies and casters, I prefer to not be in the chain. This saves my TP and Shield Bash to stun casters and gobbie bombs. I figure I'd rather spare the group the damage from the bombs or magic rather than contribute a couple extra dmg.

[Seraphin]

Loial I like the point you made about saving your TP for when a monster is casting somthing that could hurt like hell... I'll keep that in mind...


Heretic, perhaps I myself, and everyone in here who disagree with you is far less superior in this game and lack the experience to consider all the things that you describe as SIMPLE for the warrior class to do. While there are many things that can be taken up by other classes that are melee... The warrior is still the most common, and in that people can sometimes come to rely on the fact that the warrior SHOULD know what they are doing. (eg all the crap we have disgussed thusfar)

In short, while we may not be able to convince you, nor have the desire to continue to try and do so... Its obvious by the amount of posts that more people (in this thread at least) agree that the Warrior isnt as simple as you like to belive.

Dislike this as much as you want, but as long as it is an opinion based problem people will always dissagree... Thats why I am not heartbroken over you not seeing eye to eye with the rest of us.

~Seraphin

[The Heretic]

There would be no use of topics like these, unless there is someone to question and disbelieve. I guess this time, I was that someone.

PS: I really didnt mean any offence to you warriors out there, what a WAR lacks in complexity, is made up for in pressure, IMO anyway.

[Cali]

2 provokers, 1 serve as main, and the other a sub tank... it usually works, unless things go real bad....

example:
PLD/WAR tank most of the time, then WAR/MNK provoke the monster off him as soon as hes in danger(rarely), and provoke if monster move away from PLD/WAR before his provoke is back(even more rarely in good party)

NIN/WAR tank using Utsusemi, but when Utsusemi runs out, to avoid the disturbance, second tank provoke the mob off the NIN, NIN recast Utsusemi then provoke the monster back

Sharing damage is never a good idea.... WHM should always keep the tanker near full, at lv30- parties, spam Cure.... not sure bout 40... but it is more effective with 1 main tank, and a sub tank for when things go bad and sub tank will just tank for a bit while WHM or main tank fix the problem....(it does save more MP by spamming cure for some reason(tested))

[Dark Aphalite]

You basically have two Tanks and switch every 15 seconds but it doesn't have to be exactly that.
If the other tank has provoked the monster and your own provoke is ready but the tank is doing fine and has plenty of HP then there is no point in provoking. I only tend to provoke off the second tank when he starts to get less than 3/4 health.
If you have very low HP then simply don't provoke off the other tank and instead wait for mages to heal you up before taking the enemy.
Also the mages can signal you to provoke the monster.
For example, the second tank is taking care of the monster and is fine and so are you. If the mage heals off the few HP to get me max HP it is a signal that they want you to take the monster so I do it straight away.
Also if a monster makes a move for the mages no matter what, even if it means both tanks provoke at the same time you must get the monster away.

Sometimes if both the tanks are on dangerous HP levels (yellow zone) the Tank with most HP or defense should take on the monster while the mages quickly fix up the other tank then he switches and the mages heal you up.

Bah... common sense really.

[sweetooth]

I agree that the Main tank, secondary tank is better.

One, white mage can focus on one main tank and doesn't have to switch back and forth unless the battle calls for it.

Two, if you have two tanks switching every 15 secs that means there are 15 second gaps when Neither of them can use a provoke, so if there is a new spawn add or something else... unless there is a 3rd provoker, the party may be screwed.

Whereas if there is a main, with a secondary taking heat off him with an occasional provoke, you have the secondary almost always ready to handle anything new that comes along.

I as well feel if the warrior is a simple job, that blackmage is even simpler.

They don't worry about anything but not doing too much damage, and throwing in a MB if a skillchain starts.

Of course that is a generalization, and once you add sub jobs into the mix, suddenly a Blm may have tons of responsibility.

That goes with a Warrior as well, and again , every team is different, who is assigned what task and how each manages the role they were given makes or breaks a team.

I like the secondary tank as puller, after pulling, not with provoke, the Main tank Provokes and attacks and the battle is engaged.

Secondary healers like reds, are maybe focused on secondary tank, and supplement healing on main to keep hate lower on main healer, etc etc.

But I don't like the robot like every 15 seconds one of two tanks provokes, it just leaves the party too vunerable, unless there is a 3rd provoker that is there for the "What if's"