Elvaan best PLD....WTF?!

[Psychorabbit]

On these forums i have seen numerous posts about the Best PLD being Elvaan or Hume. Now i don't really have much to say about hume, but how do you elvaans think u can possibly be better Paladins then Galka?!
Galka have much better VIT and HP...the 2 most important stats for PLD
Elvaan have better MND (not really taht useful) and better STR (which matters none for a PLD)

I know, i know...heres the part where u say...ooo we have SLIGHTLY more mp. Well u guys SUCK! Each battle i use my mp...someone pulls and then my mp is back at full.

Anyway now taht im done with my ranting...can someone tell me y everyone on this forum thinks an Elvaan PLD would overweight a Galka PLD?

[bannefin]

galka have crap MP, and yes that is a factor if you hope to chain mobs successfully, and even if you want to renkei once in a while.

some of it can be made up with RSE and whatnot

but the fact of the matter is ...

the player makes the class and not vice versa

its not like you can line up a galka next to a taru and say the galka can tank better

the taru may be subbing whm, and his cures will out agro anybody ~

you just never know, so play the race you prefer and make the most of it.

[Dark-Cress]

Originally posted by Psychorabbit
Anyway now taht im done with my ranting...can someone tell me y everyone on this forum thinks an Elvaan PLD would overweight a Galka PLD?

Galka are ugly thats why :spin:

[Weezingpipes]

Funny how these best race posts come up, no one says you HAVE to be the best race for any job, every race generally has its own downsides along with the upsides. It really does come down to the person behind the toon. In my experience the best PLD I've played with have been Hume mostly and a Galka, and the worst played were Elvaan or Taru, but thats a player issue, not race.

You can be a stat whore if you want to only play the absolute best race for every job, or just play better. I find a lot of people who pick the "best" race/job combo don't really play that well..again it amounts to the person behind the toon.

[Ginthaeriel]

Well from what I've heard, with higher MND, the Elvaan's cures become way more potent, which means they actually need to USE less MP, as well as be able to grab more hate per cure.

Getting hate as fast as possible is really what a Paladin needs to do so that the dmgdealers can start doing their job early into the fight without causing the mob to attack them. This means that its easier to chain, the Paladin (you) takes much less damage (since the mob will be dead sooner) and therefore you save the WHM's mana and everyone is happy. Also, when someone DOES cause the mob to attack them, you can quickly get the mob to hate you again through a very powerful cure. Because if, say, a Dark Knight with Last Resort, Berserk and Souleater all on causes the mob to attack them, they are very soon going to be dead. And a dead party member causes a lot more time to be wasted...

At least, thats my understanding from reading guides and posts. I may be totally off base.

[Tenkei]

^^* Personally, I find MP to be very important as a PLD! I might be a little biased from playing a TaruTaru PLD, but having MP and the cure spells are very important tools you have, both in keeping you in top-top condition, and in decreasing down-time.
So that does matter. The increase of MND will help a little, though not too much, it's more a matter of the total of MP (Since your healing will be capped, anyways).

But, like everyone else said, it's really just a matter of the player. There's no point arguing about best race, really, you can do your job awesome as any race - you just have to work hard/er.
I've been raised by a Galka WHM, and I've played a TaruTaru PLD. It goes either way.

It shouldn't bother you much. ^^ If you think Galkas make the best PLD, fine, it's opinion, more or less. The little bit of MP difference may not make as big a difference to you as someone else might feel it is.

[Arnda]

Originally posted by Dark-Cress
Galka are ugly thats why :spin:

Hello race-buddy. I am clocking in here because there is a disturbingly low hume PLD count so far.

Can we get a Mithra PLD to represent? There's worthwhile PLDs of every stripe. :biggrin:

[Plenum]

Originally posted by Dark-Cress
Galka are ugly thats why

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA~ ^^;; :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Everlast1]

I think it's really hard to say who is the better. A player lacking in a specific trait can easily opt to purchase equipment to make up for that particular trait. Likewise, A player excelling in a particular trait can opt to buy equipment to make their skill even greater. EG; Elvaan Paladin buying all STR gear, though this might be suited more for a DRK.

I think it comes down to what type of tank you would like to be. If you choose to be a more of an evasion based Paladin, stack up with the AGI/Evasion Gear. For a damage dealer, (greatsword would be best choice of weapon.) equip STR/Attack/Dex(?) equipment. You get the idea.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in PvP.

Cheers,
:thumbsup:

[nuvas]

Hey guys lets argue the same thing that's been argued every other day since NA release!

/sigh

[TheBruce]

It depends on what you want out of this game. For exp matters, all 5 races work well. Galka's can get hp=>mp conversions tarus vice versa. Mithra/Hume/Elvaar can do basically whatever they like in terms of equip. Playstyles will be different for each though and parties will have to fit the paladin's strengths and weaknesses.

For tanking a Hnm though, I wouldn't go with anything but Elvaar. (yes i'm biased) Firstly, they have slightly lower viitality than Galka, but much much more mana which is needed to gain agro and keep agro during the fight. They have a lot more hp/vit than the other 3 races and can take a bigger beating and take dimensional deaths and other nasty abilities much better than the other 3 jobs.

But this is all just base abilities. The best warrior race in EQ was ogre by far, and yet the best warrior in EQ was a Hume by far.

So basically levels/equipment > race

[Geo]

Dont kid yourself. Astral Rings are affordable for a good PLD.
Galkans should atleast have 2 Astrals on them and some other good MP+.
Elvaans have more time to build their defense which is less expensive.

[Ghostraven]

Originally posted by Arnda
Can we get a Mithra PLD to represent? There's worthwhile PLDs of every stripe. :biggrin:

I have a Mithra PLD in my PT who is the best tank I have ever played with. She rarely loses aggro. She should write a PLD faq or something.

[Somajan]

It's all about player ability, not character ability. And eventually you're gonna need higher level cures like cure II and cure III when the monsters start hitting harder than the monsters in Qufim or Kazham. More mana will help during that, Flash for level 37 is pretty important as well and that takes up some mana as well.

Now can we get some moderation on this one thread? This topic has been discussed like half a million times already.

[Andorhall]

That human warrior from EQ was beat by an ogre in both BoTB and group BoTB. Sorry just had to say it, *thumbs nose at Furor* =P

[TheBruce]

Dont kid yourself. Astral Rings are affordable for a good PLD.
Galkans should atleast have 2 Astrals on them and some other good MP+.
Elvaans have more time to build their defense which is less expensive.

Yah, but when the galka or taru uses equipment slots for hp+ or mp+ items they are already behind on defense or other stats. So don't kid yourself. ^^

And yah, Furor can kill those npc's real good, but he has a much harder time against a pc. =\

[Arnda]

Originally posted by TheBruce
And yah, Furor can kill those npc's real good, but he has a much harder time against a pc. =\

There's really no comparison between EQ tanking and FFXI tanking except that tanks in both games use a form of taunting ability and get healed a lot. The main difference is CH.

Also, unless I remember wrong, Furor was never MT against those things anyway. His talent* (if you can call it that, his detractors have other names for it :sweat: ) is leadership, which you must admit is not an easy thing. How prima-donnas like Furor and Thott controlled a bunch of whiny high-powered EQ addicts enough to get out of Freeport amazes me sometimes, but they did it.

But the main point is: EQ, and EQ PvP and EQ tanking, really don't have that much to do with FFXI.

* his other talent is whining.

[Lartfor]

Originally posted by Geo
Dont kid yourself. Astral Rings are affordable for a good PLD.
Galkans should atleast have 2 Astrals on them and some other good MP+.
Elvaans have more time to build their defense which is less expensive.

For a galka to get near an elvaans mp, he would need 2 of those rings, now that means the galka cannot use +vit rings, 2x +3 vit ring gives more vit and more mp for the elvaan than the galka would have.

I personally think galka make the worst pld, having under 100mp at around 50 just does not cut it. Flash = 25 mp (always used as often as posible to build hate), cure 2 = 24 mp (very usefull for building hate), cure 3 = 46 mp (excelent for building hate)

Now lets put it this way, a galka can cast 1 flash and 1 cure 3 and maybee a cure 2, before he is out of mp, that will usually not be enough hate to keep it on ya in a fight. Elvaan on the other hand can throw out 2-3 flashes per fight with an cure 3 or 2 here and there. Granted RDM does make the galka a more viable option but all in all i do not thing the 3 less vit an elvaan has as my level is worth the 70 less mp a galka has. Hp is not important because it takes the same amount of mp to heal the same amount of dmg on any class.

Hume is I think tied with elvaan at the top, hume does not have the Physical advantages an elvaan has but they can throw out allot more spells (around 50 more mp at 50).

Hate is the paladins primary concern if you are burning defender 100% of the time you are doing little dmg, thus you must rely on your mp to bring you hate. Job abilities alone will not cut it, sentinel and shield bash used together will almost garantee you hate for a long period of time, but you can only use those every 5 minutes.

[subjectivist]

your calculations on MP are grossly exaggerated... anyone can boost MP easily (perhaps easier than VIT)

being galka pld just means you have to focus on +MP equ and don't have to worry as much about VIT and HP, not to mention you'll be having to be cured less because you take hits better which ALSO means less hate towards the WHM (if you even need a whm)

if you're galka pld become a cook and make your own juices and get drunk in parties, they'll love you

race issue: plds are a unique class because both taru pld and galka pld can be great... it really relies on who's playing.

[Dredge]

Furor is a douche bag.

[Kai]

I have played Elvaan PLD for almost 62 levels now and I believe hume makes a better PLD for two reasons. First they have a lot more MP than an elvaan which allows them to hold hate better, 2nd they have almost the same amout of vit as elvaan. Also there dex is better and the more hits they land the better they can keep hate.

[Moo]

The best PLD I have ever grouped with was a Galka. He was very good at his job.

With his main equipment on, he had around 150MP. We had a Red Mage so MP was going up fast. I believe the Galka had some Astral Rings. However, he also had a full set of RSE he used at the beginning of battle.

After each fight, he'd use an equipment macro to switch to RSE and heal up as much MP as he could. He told me not to heal him until his MP got down to 125. At the beginning of battle, he'd cast Flash and get whacked a few times and then would cast Cure III on himself. After he did that, he'd hit another equipment macro that switched to his defense gear. I don't think anyone ever pulled agro off of him the entire time, and we had a Dark Knight, a Ranger, and a Black Mage blasting away.



Low MP can be worked around if you use your head. It's very easy to work around if you have MP regen (Bard or Red Mage or both).

In my opinion, Galka is the best choice for Paladin. However, I've grouped with a few Galka and Elvaan Paladins that play Paladin just like they did a Warrior.

Galkas have the greatest potential at the Paladin Job. All the Galka Paladins I have grouped with have been either outstanding or extremely awful.

[Valdaar]

Originally posted by TheBruce


But this is all just base abilities. The best warrior race in EQ was ogre by far, and yet the best warrior in EQ was a Hume by far.

So basically levels/equipment > race

Please. NEVER. Mention. Him. Again. Thanks!

[neelon]

Originally posted by Arnda


Hello race-buddy. I am clocking in here because there is a disturbingly low hume PLD count so far.

Can we get a Mithra PLD to represent? There's worthwhile PLDs of every stripe. :biggrin:

Mythra Paladin here. :)

[imac2much]

Holy cow... digging up a 2 month old thread... anyways..

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31637

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35379

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35390

Plus about 100 more, if anyone is interested. :sweat:

[janeping]

You..are..nuts..sir to dig up all that!!

Seriously though, this is one of the reason I like FFXI. Any race can play any job. It's depends on the player behind the toon, not the race. Some race/job combo makes it harder, but a good player will make it work one way or the other.

I can't stand the elvaan cuz their ugly riding chocobo animation. I can't stand galka cuz their silly tail. Other than that, I think they are cool.

[imac2much]

I still my oldschool level 40 Cuisses... the last leg armor I had that actually armored my tail :(

Even my AF doesn't cover my tail... my tail has been naked since level 40!!! Sometimes I am tempted to switch to Cuisses just for the tail plating.... makes me feel like a armored mecha dinosaur.........


....or not. But still!!

[Pulma]

I didnt make it to 50 because I was lucky................looks like I am doing something right.

[Cedric]

Elvaan have no problem with mp whatsoever, considering pts either have a rdm refresh or i chug melon juice like a binging frat boy.

Keeping hate isn't hard at all for any race, the reason elvaans are the best plds is that they got style.

Elvaan M + pld AF > you

[Abriael]

Originally posted by Cedric

Elvaan M + pld AF > you

Actually elvaan males in PLD af look fat (due to their silly back arched posture), dumb (well all elvaan males have a rather dumb expression), clumsy and rather gay (sword fighting with spread knees and close feet is no no no good...), no wonder all elvaan girls go on a pilgrimage to bastok at least once a week... in sandoria males tend to play amongst themselves :biggrin:

Balanced stats > all = Hume > all :thumbsup:

[Cedric]

Balanced stats + 1k damage spell = dead hume

[Abriael]

I have more than enough HP to survive an 1K damage spell (and i already did, more than once), sorry, try again ^_^

[Weezingpipes]

Balanced stats > all = Hume > all

By balanced stats, you mean average stats. By definition of average, it means you are the norm and therefore never specialize or excel in any regard, and it is especially true in this game.

So Humes are never bad at anything. Just never great either.

[TheBruce]

I got hit for 4800 damage last week. My hp's didn't help with that. :spin:

[Abriael]

No, by balanced stats i mean balanced stats, as paladin is a balanced job between magic and melee.
Hume have lower VIT than elvaan, but have higher AGI, this means not only than they get hit slightly less (not that much important) but they receive less critical hits too (and here the difference is more noticeable). Yes, hume get hit for a lil more damage, but receive less critical hits, and since any critical hit can be even double damage than a normal hit you can see how much receiving less crits can be important. Yes, agi is often overlooked by many paladins, that's a common error.
And yes, the most of the humongous attacks (1000+) some mobs deal are mainly due to critical hits, being able to avoid critical hits better means being able to survive theese attacks better.
Hume paladins have more than enough HP not to be oneshotted (at least not by attacks any other paladin could hold), and can heal themselves for more than the HP they have less than an elvaan (each mana point heals about 3.6 hp on the average), moreover healing more means holding hate better.
Hume hits for slightly less then elvaan, but they hit more often, not hitting means having a base hate of 0, and if you've a base hate of zero (or a lower base hate anyway) means you have to rely on spells and provoke alone. (and here again hume wins, having more MP).
Hume have higher intelligence, is this important? Yes it is, since they get less damage from Magic.
In conclusion:
Hume can hold physical attacks as well as elvaan, not an inch less.
Hume can hold magical attacks better than elvaan.
Hume can hold aggro better than elvaan.
Hume look better then elvaan.
Hume > Elvaan.

This said, a good paladin player is still superior to a mediocre paladin player, whatever the race.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Abriael
Hume have lower VIT than elvaan, but have higher AGI, this means not only than they get hit slightly less (not that much important) but they receive less critical hits too (and here the difference is more noticeable). Yes, hume get hit for a lil more damage, but receive less critical hits, and since any critical hit can be even double damage than a normal hit you can see how much receiving less crits can be important. Yes, agi is often overlooked by many paladins, that's a common error.

...

Hume hits for slightly less then elvaan, but they hit more often, not hitting means having a base hate of 0, and if you've a base hate of zero (or a lower base hate anyway) means you have to rely on spells and provoke alone. (and here again hume wins, having more MP).

Hume have higher intelligence, is this important? Yes it is, since they get less damage from Magic.
In conclusion:
Hume can hold physical attacks as well as elvaan, not an inch less.
Hume can hold magical attacks better than elvaan.
Hume can hold aggro better than elvaan.
Hume look better then elvaan.
Hume > Elvaan.
[/B]

Abriael, I usually respect most of your posts, but I'm sorry... your post was full of misinformation. I hate to sound that harsh, but when you say something as misinformed as "Hume > Elvaan", I have to speak out.

First of all, AGI barely makes a difference. You can wish all you want of how large of an impact it makes, but it's not noticeable. I am not the only person who have fun tests with this. I have gone several battles with drone earrings and then without, at different points of leveling. Daigoro also mentioned that he never notices any difference with +6 AGI. Your slightly higher Hume AGI is not going to make a difference... maybe 1 critical hit less out of several battles. As opposed to the easily seen benefit of VIT... Elidrin was getting hit by Darter flies over 100 damage without Gluttony Sword, down to 70-90 with Gluttony. You emphasize AGI way too much, the only reason some PLD's use drone is that there aren't many good earrings for PLD.

Your MP makes absolutely no difference in a good XP PT. As a Galka, I never run out of MP. So how can an Elvaan with about 50% more MP than me ever run out? As Bruce said, it may make more of an impact in HNM alliances, but I kind of doubt that as well, since it's easy to get a BRD and RDM in my PT in those cases.

After we stopped fighting crabs a while back, I've never hit for 0's. And from now on, I probably will fight very few of those crabs or beetles.. we fight raptors, birds, toramas, crawlers, flies, bones I think. Even now I can hit Toramas for 50ish damage, I don't see how this is laughable. Elvaan have DEX problems, sure, but with a BRD in the PT it hardly matters... I believe sword or blade madrigal raises ACC by 30 or so... that more than makes up for the DEX difference.

Um, and your higher INT... will decrease your magic damage by maybe 10-15 damage, from my experience.

So your statements are wrong.

Hume do not take less damage than Elvaan or Galka, and you are wrong if you think otherwise. They might not take too much more with correct equipment, but they will not take less if both are played equally with similar equipment.

Humes will take nearly the same damage from magic attacks, have you ever actually tested this out? I have with some +INT items for +5 or 7 INT, and it made almost no difference at all.

Hume have the same aggro holding capabilities of Elvaan. In some ways, it may be argued they have LESS aggro holding , since they do less damage and take more damage, but I suppose they have more MP to use. The MP is worthless in a good PT, when even a Galka never runs out of MP with good equipment and macros.

Yeah I agree Humes look better but that's totally in the eye of the beholder :p

In conclusion, I'm not saying Humes are bad PLDs. But in no ways are they the 'superior race', if there even was one. You are only fooling yourself if you think otherwise, because you were just emphasizing a lot of negligible bonuses that Humes get over other races.

[Weezingpipes]

Yes, agi is often overlooked by many paladins, that's a common error.

Overlooked because it is irrelevant. You must be one of those drone earring paladins right? ;p

Hume hits for slightly less then elvaan, but they hit more often

You really place a lot of value on 3 DEX apparently. 9 STR is a fairly significant difference btw.

means you have to rely on spells and provoke alone. (and here again hume wins, having more MP).

I actually find Hume to have more issues keeping hate than Elvaan, even Galkas oddly enough. Sure they have a larger MP pool, but they do take more damage, so they heal themselves more for hate which spends proportionally more mp. Casting more = not swinging too. It is odd, many PLD act like their melee damage is negligable and doesn't help hate at all when in fact it does noticeably. And given that MP pool difference between Hume and say, a Galka, you make it sound like the lower mp races aren't viable at all. I've grouped with Imac2much (who is that dreaded low mp Galka) and he's never had any hate issues in my experience and doesn't have to spam cast to keep hate either, hell he's able to renkai more than any other PLD I've grouped with.

Hume have higher intelligence, is this important? Yes it is, since they get less damage from Magic.

You realize its not a significant difference like at all right? Just thought you would like to know. By that logic Taru owns because they have the highest INT of any race.

Seriously, Hume is fine. Hume is what you play when you really don't know what job you wanna be so you pick the race that cannot suck at any job, but again will never excel either. They have to compensate those average stats more so than other races which do excel in certain stats, whereas the only stat Elvaan and Galka are particularly weak in is MP. Needless to say, there is a given amount of MP you actually need to be effective, and it is easier to find high amount MP items than compensating other lower stats.

I do agree, what matters is how good you are as a player, which is why I've met Elvaan WHM who own Taru WHM simply because they are better players (feel free to replace the example with any other job/race combo really). There really are prefered combos for jobs however.

[Abriael]

I've made some experimenting as well, imac, and i noticed elvaan taking at least 8-10% more crits than hume with exactly the same equipment, i find this more than noticeable.

I compared a lot with good and well equipped elvaan players during alliance play, no one ever managed to barely outtank me (at comparable levels), kept loosing aggro or had their asses handed back to them several times by mobs i tanked without as many problems.
(actually i've seen elvaan paladins outtanked easily even by mithra, and more than once)

Anyway anyone seems to have his own opinion on this, understandable.

Just one further note: about hume being the race one choses when he doesn't know what job to chose, that doesn't even need to be commented, balanced stats have a purpose, and it's sure not only that of being able to play different jobs.

[Weezingpipes]

Just one further note: about hume being the race one choses when he doesn't know what job to chose, that doesn't even need to be commented, balanced stats have a purpose, and it's sure not only that of being able to play different jobs.

Er, no. Hume are intentionally designed as the middle ground race. Add VIT lower mp, chr, blam, you have a Galka. Add dex, lower str, chr, add some agi, hey its a Mithra. That really is the difference. By your logic Hume is the best race because it has "balanced" stats, except you aren't acknowledging the fact that every other race excels in certain stats, where Hume excels in 0.

There are stats which are relevant to different jobs, and others which simply don't matter, or matter so little you'll never really notice a difference over a long sample testing. I call bs on that int difference in magic thing, and the difference in agi. Evasion skill matters far more to tanking than agi ever will, and considering PLD is average ranked in Evasion...doesn't matter much anyway.

I've read a whole like 5 posts by you, and I already have you figured out. Let me guess, Beta player who probably played a Paladin cuz he wanted to be hero boy, but playing an Elvaan he discovered he wasn't good enough at managing his mp to keep hate, and therefore concluded Hume was better. Or maybe he was a Hume anyway who saw a shitty played Elvaan PLD and concluded that because the Elvaan missed 1% more often than him and had lower mp, clearly Elvaan was the inferiour choice. Despite extensive testing to the effects of VIT and how it affects damage intake, you can't deal with not being the absolute best, so you make up bs reasons that you cannot actually validate in any way to say "Hume > Elvaan". It's bad enough people post inaccurate or unsubstantiated information on these forums, don't need people who *should* know what they are talking about taking up space with gibberish.

It isn't that people have their own opinions...they have quantifiable evidence to back it up is the thing. You have selective viewing.

[Nomaar]

I'll take a Hume PLD over an Elvan or Galkan every time, no doubt about it. Holding hate is all in the MP. The superior STR and HPs of the Elvan and Galkan PLDs make not a dime's worth of difference. Self-healing is a HUGE factor in generating hate. The damage inflicted by a few extra points of strength makes no difference whatsoever. I've grouped with Galka PLDs and they run out of mp noticeably faster. They simply don't hold hate that well and it can make things difficult. Elvan PLDs are better, but not as good as Humes, who are veritable mp fountains compared to these other two races.

I've grouped with all three, and it's no contest, really -- even if Elvaans want to think they're God's gift to all thing having to do with melee combat.

:p

[Abriael]

Actually there's no stat that's not relevant for the paladin job, some are more relevant than others, but they balance out quite well. HAving good to decent stats in all fields is according to me more important than having excellent ones in some fields and crappy ones in the other fields, simply because a paladin needs to be able to do everything.

A paladin must be able to bear physical and magical damage alike, must be able to cast healing spells, must be able to deal damage at a constant rate(not high damage, just constant) , should even be able to deal decent magical damage when he has enough mana to (divine magic is the highest of the paladin's magic skills)
This means that a paladin, to be able to play to it's full potential needs decent scores in all it's stats (AND a good player, but that's not S-E's responsibility to provide that).

I have no problem in playing mediocre or even crappy race/job combinations, i always played paladin, since the times of D&D, through muds and to mmo's, even in games in wich the class is totally underdeveloped, just don't care that much.

On the other hand i noticed the vast majority of elvaan players get quite fired up when you tell them they're not the best... an interesting point, that's for sure, on this i have to agree with Nomaar for sure.

Anyway the whole thing of you being so sure of being able to figure me by reading 5 posts (by the way, all your statements are totally out of the target, retry guessing, you'll be more lucky), just demonstrates how seriously i should take you, basically 0 (and the warning points under your nickname tell me you are just a flamer, so you deserve really little attention).
Anyway even if i would have been in beta (and i didn't) i would have never played an elvaan, simply because they look ugly as hell. Basically elvaan males are the worst representation of elves a japanese artist has ever drawn...
Please go try to figure out people you know, maybe you'll have better luck.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Abriael
Actually there's no stat that's not relevant for the paladin job, some are more relevant than others, but they balance out quite well. HAving good to decent stats in all fields is according to me more important than having excellent ones in some fields and crappy ones in the other fields, simply because a paladin needs to be able to do everything.


Abriael, I didn't mean to flame you in any way, so let's try to stay polite and respectful.

However much you may believe this, I 100% disagree. Think of it this way...

Let's say there are 6 hypothetical stats A, B, C, D, E, F, that all have a different "weight" attributed to them. The weight corresponds to how important that stat is, and can be though of as a multiplier.

So let's say A and B have a x5 multiplier, C and D x3, and E and F have no multiplier (i.e. x1).

Now let's assume that you have 12 stat points to distribute.

Case1: All stats equal. This equals (2+2)x5 + (2+2)x3 + (2+2) = 36.

Case2: Leaning toward the extremes. (4+3)x5 + (2+1)x3 + (1+1) = 47.

You see where I'm going right? You're totally wrong if you think all stats are equally important to a PLD. Every stat has some value, some are just not as important. Let's look at it this way, and I'll rate them from 1 - 10, 10 being most important.

HP (7): Important. As main tank you want enough HP so you don't won't die after a few criticals and a special. As long as you have a good healer, you don't need too much.
MP (9 before lv 41 and too cheap to use Drinks, 4 if otherwise with constant means of MP refresh): Important. You need MP to keep aggro. However, after a certain amount, I'd say around 140-150, you don't need more. With MP refresh abilities, you can start with 150ish MP and keep aggro the entire battle with Cure III and IV and Flash. This 'threshold' will not go higher as you level, either: You aren't going to get Cure V, and battles at high levels last about the same time as before.

STR (6): Semi-important. Doing damage gets you aggro, and believe it or not, after you stop leveling constantly on crabs and beetles, you will start doing respectable damage, especially with vorpal and swift blade.
DEX (6): Semi-important. More DEX = more accuracy, although it is not a big difference to tell the truth.
VIT (10): VIT affects several things. First of all, 2 VIT = 1 DEF, so you get a small DEF boost. Also after you hit the threshold where your DEF > monster's ATK (not hard to do), VIT will reduce damage more than DEF. Very important.
AGI (4): Like it or not, it makes little difference. You may have noticed that your Elvaan buddy took a lot more crits than you, but that most likely was a random isolated case. Several other PLD's other than myself have tested this with the same conclusion as me: no noticeable difference. If you want to believe Hume will take 20% less crit because of 3 AGI, that's your call. But then you're saying I should have experienced 20-40% less crit from 2 drone earrings? Nope, noticed no difference, through several hours of testing.
MND (3): Hardly important. 3 MND increases my Cure IV potency by 2 HP. This makes almost no difference. Any knowledgeable WHM will tell you cure potency is based more on healing skill level than MND anyway.
INT (2): Sure, sure, INT lowers elemental damage... but not by much. If you were a RDM or BLM, it would be a significant increase. But as a PLD, the difference between races is so minimal in this department that Hume might take 5-10 less damage than another race.
CHR (debatable): Several people thinks this affects Provoke, but mostly on hearsay than actual experience. I've tried testing this, but only with mixed results.

There you have it. Balanced does not for no intents and purposes mean better. Balanced is just that: no strengths, no weaknesses. Once again, I don't agree that Elvaan are the superior race, but I sure as hell don't think Humes are inherently better either.

And Nomaar, you just haven't partied with a GOOD Elvaan/Galka PLD then. Honestly, if a Galka PLD like myself can heep great without running out of MP (and other Galka PLDs such as Matteo and Pabaf), I don't see any reason why an Elvaan can't do the same. That's just like if I partied with a RNG using a crappy bow and iron arrows, doing pathetic damage and missing every sidewinder... then saying, "wow RNG suck, I'm never PT'ing with them again." The blame is misplaced, it's not that the job or race is bad, it's that the player was bad.

[Abriael]

actually that wasn't referred to you imac, but to weezing, that actually did try flaming me.

Anyway my AGI testing was sure not an isolated random case, i tried to do extrensive tensting on it with an elvaan and a mithra paladin, and had pretty consistent results in an average of 8-10% more crits on the elvaan and 6-7% less crits on the mithra.
Btw, the difference in AGI between elvaan and hume paladin at level 60 is not 3 but 7, 3 is the difference in DEX.
Btw2 the difference in INT between and hume and elvaan paladin at level 60 is 7, that's not exactly minimal, anyway it's exactly the same difference between an Hume and Elvaan BLM or RDM
Remember than elemental resistance not only influences the overall damage you get from a spell, but even the chance to resisting it.
To make an example you probably tanked a lot of mobs using ancient magic so far. Sometimes they will deal 500-800 damage to you, sometimes they will deal lesser scores, like 150-200, the latter case is because you resisted the spell, and having an higher chance to resist it is sure not a thing i would dump.

[Cedric]

All of you basing MP on plds need to get a clue. Any good pt( or non-NA?) the paladin rarely, if ever, loses all mp. If i am in the position of using up all of my mp, NO way in hell will the monster ever agro anyone else. The only stats pld effectiveness is based on in my opinion(through 45234524523454 hours of game experience) is vit and defense. Nothing else makes any shit of a difference.

edit:typo

[Abriael]

Talk about being simplicistic...
Anyway mana is there not only for healing you know ^_^
Of course you have to have enough of it to do other things ^_^

[Cedric]

Originally posted by Abriael
Talk about being simplicistic...
Anyway mana is there not only for healing you know ^_^
Of course you have to have enough of it to do other things ^_^

Mana for what, flash? thats once every 40 seconds or whatever. I have no clue what point youre trying to make...

[Abriael]

Actually we're given some useful spells called Banish, Banish II, Banish III and Holy, our highest magic skill is Divine Magic.
They can be effective if you have enough mana to use them, ya know, a paladin can easily perform a double light magic burst too, if he's decently skilled (and has enough mana to do it).
Or maybe you think S-E gave us theese spells only because we're too rich compared to ninjas and need to make us spend money on them? ^_^

[Cedric]

Are you fucking joking...

I've had capped holy magic for whm and pld, both of them do shit damage against a tote2 monster unless magic bursting. How often do you fight bones, because there are better spots than bones unless youre fighting 65+.

Those spells arent worth the mp cost during level pts, the mp is more effective for curing and hate from them, not to mention they have hour long casting times. You should have known this after playing pld so long...

Also, there is no PC spell called Banish III, there is only NPC BanishIII. Way to be on top of things. :thumbsup:

[Abriael]

You told the magic key words: "unless magic burst"
You know, renkei and magic burst are the basis of FFXI combat, and light ones becomes expecially precious at endgame, when level 3 renkei are only light or dark.

[Cedric]

Originally posted by imac2much
Hume do not take less damage than Elvaan or Galka, and you are wrong if you think otherwise. They might not take too much more with correct equipment, but they will not take less if both are played equally with similar equipment.

Humes will take nearly the same damage from magic attacks, have you ever actually tested this out? I have with some +INT items for +5 or 7 INT, and it made almost no difference at all.


Why do people think INT affects magic defense? MND is the stat that governs the defense of magic, not INT. Elvaan have highest mind, so both of you are mistaken in the respective aspects.

In no regard do hume take less physical damage innately compared to elvaan or galka, imac2much is right. In no regard do hume take less magical damage innately compared to elvaan.

[Abriael]

Actually as imac rightly stated in another post, MND affect resistance from enfeebling magic, while INT affect resistance from elemental (damaging) magic.
So, i'm sorry to ruin your happy trip, but yes, elvaan do receive more damage from magic.

[Cedric]

Originally posted by Abriael
You told the magic key words: "unless magic burst"
You know, renkei and magic burst are the basis of FFXI combat, and light ones becomes expecially precious at endgame, when level 3 renkei are only light or dark.

You RARELY use light magic burst, untill level 65+. Even then, mp is not a factor. Using holy magic besides flash to MB is no different regarding race when it is actual a habit at the level of playing(65+). Fighting monsters using an incurve renkei is superior until that level, and then you already have hundreds of mp and refresh and what not.

[Cedric]

Originally posted by Abriael
Actually as imac rightly stated in another post, MND affect resistance from enfeebling magic, while INT affect resistance from elemental (damaging) magic.
So, i'm sorry to ruin your happy trip, but yes, elvaan do receive more damage from magic.

Thats why my elvaan whm recieves less damage than a taru whm? Sorry to ruin your happy trip, but no.

Also, where in the hell did you get that elvaan recieve more critical hits? That sounds like total bullshit.

[Abriael]

Actually doing a double magic burst (BanishII+Holy) drains a big slice of a level 75 elvaan's mana, while an hume have still more than enough to go on healing himself while refresh kicks in.

Elvaan receive less PHYSICAL damage for sure than a taru, but taru receive less MAGICAL damage than elvaan (and anyone else actually).
Elvaan receive more critical hits because their agility is worse and chance of receiving crits is tested against your agility.

[Rico]

Don't see why Elvaans should be worried about mp if they got brd or rdm nothing to worry about there.

[imac2much]

Eh, although I don't like his arrogant and elitist attitude, cedric is right on some points. As for whether INT or MND affect elemental resistance, the general consensus from lv 60+ mages I talk to is that INT affects elemental resistance, MND affects divine resistance (and enfeeble resistance).

About MB'ing.. no. Please don't. Holy is 100 mp and does about 180-200 damage when MB'ed. This is a total waste of MP. Most offensive spells have a 3:1 damage:MP ratio, usually 4:1 when MB'ed against weakness. Holy is barely 2:1 when MB'ed, so don't bother, really.

Doing a double burst will drain MP that's true, it'll also do like piddly damage on the monster. Most of the time 1 or both will be resisted as well.

Cedric, chill out. Why the cocky and racist attitude man? We're just havin a debate, don't get so worked up over it, and no needs for baseless insults.

[Abriael]

Actually imac, most higher level paladins i've talked to tell me that bursting on light level 3 renkei gives a lot more value to divine spells, that sounds actually quite logic to me, since magic burst damage is mainly based on the renkei own damage, so the stronger the renkei, the more damage the mb will inflict.
I had the chance to magic burst on a light chain when a level 73 monk and a level 74 whm friend of mine helped me getting the beadeaux key for AF, unfortunately i wasn't prepared for it so i missed the banish, but holy did about 400 on a mob that at that level was IT for me.

[Deodorant]

The order of pld race is:

Mithra > Elvaan/Taru/Hume > Galka.

Mithra is sexiest, and therefore are the best race for any job.

I can't really decide, Elvaan's look more "regal" but their battle stance (especially with dagger) is a little goofy. Tarus are cute. Galkas are the ugliest, and therefore the worst.

Looks are everything, and therefore absolutely nothing else matters.

since magic burst damage is mainly based on the renkei own damage, so the stronger the renkei, the more damage the mb will inflict
I don't know where you came to this conclusion, but that's the first time I've ever heard of it. I've never noticed my MB damage varying with renkei damage, it's always 'constant' (depending on whether it gets resisted or not).

[Abriael]

Actually i did see it vary quite a lot, maybe due to some other factors, but on level 3 renkei i'm quite sure it's much higher than on level 2 fusion or level 1 transfixion.

[simplex]

doesnt matter. all races have enough hp. all races have enough mp. therefore all races can hold aggro.

[Nomaar]

Agilility does affect critical hits received. That's not conjecture, it's from the horse's mouth ...

http://ffxi.crgaming.com/interviews/viewinterview.asp?Id=209

[Weezingpipes]

On the other hand i noticed the vast majority of elvaan players get quite fired up when you tell them they're not the best

I noticed a majority of people who play humes can't deal with the fact they are average. I probably wouldn't find your posting so annoying if you seriously weren't so unfathomably arrogant. It is amazing really.

Call me a flamer if you like, doesn't make me wrong though.

[TheBruce]

Blah.

Nuff said.

[nuvas]

I agree with Bruce. :zzz:

[Abriael]

Originally posted by Weezingpipes
if you seriously weren't so unfathomably arrogant. It is amazing really.

Lol:spin:

[imac2much]

Interesting link, Nomaar, now we know where the actual idea even came from. However, I wasn't actually attacking the fact that it did affect crit-by%, but by how MUCH. Humes and Elvaans PLDs at my level have... 7 or 8 AGI difference? Maybe less? I'm not exactly sure, and I don't trust those online stat calculators (they have been wrong before). I just find it strange that only you have noticed a difference in crit%, and by such significant amounts (up to 30%), whereas I and several other people have tried using 2 drone as opposed to no drone (a difference of 6 AGI), and noticed little to no difference.

I suppose it's a personal preference then, and also maybe a psychological thing (on both ends). I still don't think it makes much of a difference but I'll try testing it later maybe. But still, that doesn't make Hume the superior race, so really, stop trying to vouch that. I mean, you make good points, but I have to agree with weezing that you come off as arrogant when you try to boast about all of your race's superiorities compared to other races.

Just calm down and feel the Paladin love... the naked Galka Paladin love...

[Abriael]

urgh, no naked galkas please...

Actually i never said there's a 30% difference, that would be REALLY too much, as i said i found an average of 8-10% between an elvaan and an hume and a 6-7% between an hume and a mithra at level 60 (it's more than probable than the actual difference would roughly 7-8% on both sides since the score difference is 7 on both sides, but luck or bad luck can influence even an extensive testing), using the same equipment (we all had complete AF and i lent them my equipment, excluding the cloak that's ex, so we tested without a cloak) this would lead to an average difference of 14-17% between elvaan and mithra, considering the quite huge gap in AGI between the two (14) it seems fairly logic to me.
Anyway a difference around the 8% is fairly difficult to notice if you don't actually review your log and count the crits, but acording to me balances quite well the difference in damage taken due to VIT.