Monster Signa - Bards Unite!

[obmar]

posted on Vault Boards too - I am trying to reach all bards...

Ok so I have been thinking about the Monster Signa Staff, and how ridiculous it is a level 17 staff is priced at 300k.

Why is this? supply and demand. People camp this 24X7 solely BECAUSE it sells for 300k. Perpetuating cycle.

So how do we break it? ---- Feedback, and lots of it.

All Bards would love to see this camp empty out or the price drop right? So go to this link:

https://secure.playonline.com/polapps/j/cs/form/html-us/op/request.o

Enter your info and give feedback on the monster signa. Here is what i wrote - use it if you like...

Request - Please make "Monster Signa Staff" - EX and Rare

Why - currently this item is camped (Hoo Mjuu the Torrent in Giddeus) all day every day by high level people looking to make money. They do not need the staff - it is a primary item for Bards.

This item is lvl 17 and is selling for OVER 300k. Making it EX and Rare would stop the camping entirely for non-bards and drop the market down to a resonable level- 300k is prohibitive, at best.

Please please make this change - I cannot compete with multiple lvl 60+ characters that don't even want to use this staff. Therefore only a very few bards actually get to use this item.

Consider that you have made this change for many important items for other classes - give Bards some love!

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Obmar (Sylph)

[Teffie]

Another Thing to Add:

Monster Signa isn't EX or RARE!
Meaning, someone with alot of free time on their hands, can head to Giddeus, and Leave with 3+ Monster Signa's (If they are Lucky)

If it was RARE, they could only have 1 in their inventory at any time.

If it was EX, nobody else would even want it

[obmar]

exactly my idea :)

everyone should post feedback to playonline - maybe we can get this changed

[Talonus]

As an ahead, I've gotten two signas camping so far. One I'm using for my bard and bst (most every bst gets one as well remember), and one I sold for ~270k.

Personally, I think the price is perfectly fine. Why? Its worth it. Its a low level item that both bards and bsts can, and probably will, use through 75. Only a handful of items are that useful. Since its so useful, its going to cost more money.

If anything, I'd say the signa is underpriced personally. Its obviously an item that nearly every bard or bst will obtain at sometime or another. Its a rare drop off a 45+min spawn mob that's highly competed for. I'm surprised the price isn't 300k+, like some higher level items that are about as hard to get and are used by 2-3 classes.

Of course, will making it rare/EX will make it easier to get? Of course, and every bard or bst will get one once they can handle the camp. Does this really need to be done though? No, the camp isn't that bad. Level a warrior to five for provoke and you'll get it eventually. Is the item worth the ~250k-300k that its going for now? Definitely, if not more.

[efDisk]

As a new bard, but someone who has been playing other classes a lot, I fail to see the problem with this item.

It's a game. Unless the bard class is completely unplayable without the item, I'd say the price point and the drop is perfectly acceptable. Can I afford it? Hell no.

I also can't afford Erase which is 500k on my server.

But that's the game. You reward who has the time, and puts in the effort, and those who don't, as long as they are not harmed (and I'd argue they aren't) it doesn't hurt things.

You show me why when I turn 17 I can no longer play bard without the signa. And maybe I'll sign your petition, but I'd prefer they kept the status quo. Be careful what you wish for. I've seen far too many MMOs die because of these kinds of threads. (Any EQ Wizards feel like chiming in? You got more TPs... grats)

[mIze]

I'd have to agree with everyone who disagrees with you. Part of having hard-to-obtain items is the grandeur and flash of having them. If Signa was dropped by a level 60 mob and was Rare-Ex, then I would agree, because it would take work to get or at least enough skill to convince a high lvl JP to help. But as it stands, you would see EVERY bard and bst have one of these equipped at 17, and I personally don't like that cookie-cutter crap.

I just got my AF1 dagger, sure it's not as nice as Shellbuster or Signa, but heck I like it, and the NM was a pain in the ass. I would not like it so much if I could have solo'd that NM. So whether you buy signa or camp it for 3 days, it's an accomplishment to have one. That's the point.

[Moo]

I like the Rare - Ex idea.

I can't stand the idiots that waste their play time away camping items like this. Talk about boring. Anything that puts a stop to timesinks/overcamping is OK in my book.

[Talonus]

Originally posted by Moo
I like the Rare - Ex idea.

I can't stand the idiots that waste their play time away camping items like this. Talk about boring. Anything that puts a stop to timesinks/overcamping is OK in my book.

Wait, but if you like this idea then you're just promoting a timesink anyway. People will still camp the signa just to get it over with for their brd or bst if they play one. I find it VERY unlikely that, if it were changed, you'd be likely to wander to the spot and find Hoo Mjuu up. There's still going to be competition.

And really, by making it rare/EX, its just forcing the camp. You don't have to camp it; you could always drop however much it costs on your server. Obviously people do this. Oh sure, then you have a timesink in getting the cash, but its not the camp right?

If you don't like the camp or the cost, do you want the signa just handed to you? Where's the fun in that? Where's the sense of accomplishment that you get from seeing it drop or finally putting down the cash for one? It seems folks want the incredily uber item without putting any of the work into getting it.

[Moo]

The big timesink part of it isn't how rare it is, it's that so many people camp it at the same time. Yes, it is rare, but added on top of that is the probability that you even get to engage the NM first.

I walked by the spawn point for it a while back and saw 6 people standing around waiting for him to pop. None of them were either a BST or a BRD.

Making it Rare/Ex would cut the time needed to camp one, would take out alot of the conflilct that arises from fighting over a spawn, and would make it so that only those that needed it would camp it.


It sucks that such an important item for a BRD or BST costs 300k. They have the choice to join the mindless herde of people waiting around in Giddeus or farming up 300k.

I don't care about the "pride" you get from camping an NM. I just want the bard in my party to be able to sleep stuff without worrying.

[Niland]

i'd just make the minor point that not everybody wants to camp this NM. For those buying it at whatever price is a nice option to have.

I think making it just rare would be a good move tho, it would certainly stop someone spending several irl days just camping that spot.

[Talonus]

Moo, you're making the assumption that because its rare/ex nobody will be there when you want to camp it, and as thus there won't be competition. That's just wishfulness on your part.

About 80% of the time there was a visible brd or bst when I as camping signa. Other 20% there wasn't anyone who was visibly a brd or bst, but it doesn't mean they weren't camping it for their brd or bst. Its far easier to camp it with pretty much every othe class than bard, trust me on that. Sure, there were obvious people camping it to sell pretty much every time, but that happens with almost every NM in the game.

And hey, you don't care about my sense of accomplishment for getting the best weapon there is for a bard at only level 32. I do, and it made my day when I got the drop. I don't exactly want my gear handed to me on a silver platter, like it seems you may.

Once again, I basically think you want to get one of the best items in the game without having to put in a sufficient amount of effort. The effort is already worth the reward, and if anything the reward is worth more than the effort for the camp or money gathering.

[JncoDragon]

Square-Enix put the notorious monster battles in the game for a reason. They are there to provide items, and if people want to spend their time camping a monster to sell the items, then I support that. Personally, I would rather go finish a quest or mission than camp a monster. On the occasion, I will camp a monster to see if I can fight him. I do not necessarily care about the monster, but I want to say that I fought the monster. The Orcs in Ghelsba do not drop anything particularly wonderful, but I did run around Ghelsba fighting them for fun.

The other side to this post is that if they added those attributes to the Monster Signa, they would have to do it to basically every other item in the game. People camp crawlers for silk and many other simple, not notorious, monsters for items used in crafting, etc. Silk goes for 10K a stack, so I suppose someone could rally and ask Square-Enix to make the silk non-stackable or perhaps Rare/Ex as well. If they added the Rare/Ex status to the Monster Signa because people are tired of campers, then they would have to do it for every other item that drops from a creature. This, however, would be very impractical and lead to the downfall, and economy I might add, of the game.

~JncoDragon :eek:

[Neplak]

I still think Charisma is overrated other than for BCNM fights and dont really agree on the monster insigna being the best weapon for bard in the game. I rather go with the Paper knife and the small extra effect it gives to the songs.

But back to the subject... The Ex / Rare tag is a good idea, But good items droping from Easy rare mobs is in my opinon always a bad idea. Sitting on my ass fighting over an easy mobs with 10 other ppl for hours straight isnt my idea of fun or a challange.. its just pure boredom. Put the damn thing on a BCNM or something alike so it is a fight that has abit to do with skills from the players than just pure luck and who nukes the first nuke the fastest.

[Extreme]

Originally posted by Neplak
I still think Charisma is overrated other than for BCNM fights and dont really agree on the monster insigna being the best weapon for bard in the game. I rather go with the Paper knife and the small extra effect it gives to the songs.

But back to the subject... The Ex / Rare tag is a good idea, But good items droping from Easy rare mobs is in my opinon always a bad idea. Sitting on my ass fighting over an easy mobs with 10 other ppl for hours straight isnt my idea of fun or a challange.. its just pure boredom. Put the damn thing on a BCNM or something alike so it is a fight that has abit to do with skills from the players than just pure luck and who nukes the first nuke the fastest.

By FAR it is the best weapon for a bard, by FAR. The rare-ex idea is just stupid, only reason you care is because you can't afford it. Using your logic every item dropped by a monster should be rare-ex simply because you dont have one? Sorry, no

[Tulwin]

I do not feel that this should be ex rare. I for one would not cough up the 300k for one nor would a shell out 55 to 75k for mary's horn I took the time and camped the horn. Yes It takes time but what in life that is really worth it does not??? Everyone complains that Its over camped and there are high levels that will take it. Well, name one online game out there that is not like this!Its what drives the economy and if people did not buy it at that price well it damn well would not be set that high. This is not a single player game and its kinda like real life in the fact that you can't get everything you want without getting your hands dirty first

[imac2much]

I agree with Extreme. You people who want it to be RARE/EX just so you can get it easier are just lazy. What's the saying again... "the good things in life are hard to get." You could just as well say, "Hey let BRD have Soul Voice as a 5 minute job ability. Hey let BRD have A+ in all weapons. Hey all AF quests should just involve trading a giant sheep meat to an NPC. Hey we should start at level 70."

You just want the game to be easier because you don't want to spend the time. Monster Signa and other such items aren't NECESSARY to play a BRD. The difference and usefulness are very noticeable and significant, but, hey, if someone took the time to camp for it/farm money for it, they DESERVE it. You can argue, "I don't have time to do something useless like this blah blah blah" all you want. If you want an easy game, go play Progress Quest.

[Neplak]

Eh? cant afford it? Yes i can afford it but do i see it worth it No, As far as my research goes only thing charisma effects is resists on mobs that are casted on a mob, and has absolutly no effect on the buff songs. And the only time I fell that resists can be a problem is in BCNM fights at other time 1 out of 20 resists i get dont matter.

In my belive risk shall equal reward and i dont really see any risk in sitting and camping an item just boredom and that is not talkin about the signa staff that is talking about all the overcamped places.

[Neplak]

Hmm Name one game that it isnt this way in.... hmm lets see easy Daoc =P... I like this game alot, but like in all games there are some thing that i dont find appeling ;)

[Calianeri]

The game does seem to make some weapons and items too expensive/hard to get. I don't mind camping an NM for a good item, and I certainly don't mind paying for good stuff that I can't/won't camp -- but I do mind competing against someone who spends days holding down one or two NMs and raking in multiples of that item, or at least preventing everyone else from getting a shot. So making more of these items "Rare" sounds like an OK idea to me. They should NOT be Rare/Ex however, because that would definitely crimp the viability of NM hunting as a money-maker.

The game is already a little inconsistent on what nice items are Rare, Rare/Ex, and unrestricted... Mist Silk Cape is Rare, for example. I'm not sure why that would be different from some other NM drops like the signa.

Hey all AF quests should just involve trading a giant sheep meat to an NPC.

Now THAT is a good idea! :biggrin:

[Neplak]

well i kinda agree with Calianeri :)

[Extreme]

Originally posted by Neplak
Eh? cant afford it? Yes i can afford it but do i see it worth it No, As far as my research goes only thing charisma effects is resists on mobs that are casted on a mob, and has absolutly no effect on the buff songs. And the only time I fell that resists can be a problem is in BCNM fights at other time 1 out of 20 resists i get dont matter.

In my belive risk shall equal reward and i dont really see any risk in sitting and camping an item just boredom and that is not talkin about the signa staff that is talking about all the overcamped places.

It increases the length and potentcy of all songs... how did you get to 53 and not know this -_-

[Neplak]

You ever checked? Take a little look on how much it raises it. effective 55 cha minute does 47atk with my current skill 55 +13 cha minute does 47atk oh great raise yay

[Moo]

Originally posted by Talonus
Moo, you're making the assumption that because its rare/ex nobody will be there when you want to camp it, and as thus there won't be competition. That's just wishfulness on your part.
gathering.

Good point. There probably will still be just as much competition. If you go by my logic, then every BRD/BST that needed one would have one currently. My mistake.




I just wish this thing wasn't so rare and expensive. I'm throwing in 50k to help the Bard in my BCNM party buy one. :mad:

It would be great if you could get the Monster Signia from a quest. Like fight a level 30 battle or something, kinda like a BCNM30.


It would be oh so awesome if it required skill to get the monster signia, not just loads of time.




In my belive risk shall equal reward and i dont really see any risk in sitting and camping an item just boredom and that is not talkin about the signa staff that is talking about all the overcamped places.

We think alike. :)

[Rekiem]

Originally posted by Extreme


It increases the length and potentcy of all songs... how did you get to 53 and not know this -_-


Don't you know? CHR does not boost the effectiveness of songs. But so many people think so because they never actually tried to test and see.

[Hyper]

I went here last night just to check out the area. I am not usually patient enough to just camp an area for a NM. My issue is this... time lag...let me explain...
There were 3 other there plus myself, 2 were JP and myself and another NA. Several times as soon as a mob appeared it was already claimed...I am on a T-1 line with a nice computer, so it was not client side, It had to be the 'travel' time on the server. These mobs popped up on my screen as allready claimed...That is a real unfair advantage for NA players. I don't agree with limiting the staff, Some items need to be expensive to keep money circulating, but when a NA has little to no chance to get a NM due to time lag... it is wrong and unfair.

Hype
30whm/18brd/14blm

[Niland]

its because JP players normally use a /targetnpc macro, which they just spam at an area.

use a monk with that energy blast thing if you want to beat JP campers =)

[Tenkei]

I could be seeing things, but most likely not.
A few days ago I went about trying to figure out what CHR had an effect on. And while using Minuet II to test this theory out, I noticed that my attack stat rose significantly more (about +3 or a little more) when I would sing Minuet with all of my CHR gear on (at the time it was only +8, but it's increased quite a bit since then).

I'd have to get some pictures to show properly, I believe, but there was deffinitely a difference in the attack status when I took off my CHR items.

[Maxim]

When using Minne or Minuet the strength of it isn't affected by CHR, only your singing skills and what kind of instrument you're using, but CHR is really important for stuff like Lullaby (which is why it's great for BCNMs where you fight a bunch of monsters simultaneously).

But at any rate, I totally agree with Celeras. Asking to drop the price of the Monster Signa is a bit selfish since it will only be helping you at the expense of altering the economy for the worse. Asking Square to change the drop rate/price/whatever of the Monster Signa is like asking the makers of BMWs to sell their cars for 100 dollars so everybody can own one without doing much.

Despite the fact that the Signa is only a level 17 weapon, there is a reason why it's expensive. It's an NM drop and also the most efficient way of boosting CHR through a weapon. Leaping Lizzy Boots are level 7 and they're about 150~200k+ in the AH. Should Square reduce the price of these boots just because it's level 7 so that all the thieves and rangers can own one?

[Talonus]

Once you camp NMs you start to learn certain tricks to beat others. Here's a couple to make the signa camp easier;

1)Drop your resolution down to 512x512 (or 256x256 if you can stand the pixels) first of all, as stuff does appear faster on your screen this way. That's partially why some JPs will get it before it even draws on your screen.

2)USE PROVOKE OR CHARM. I cannot stress this enough. In a small spawn area situation, provoke or charm is downright necessary. Charm seems to be *slightly* faster than provoke, because the animation is quicker, and has a shorter reuse timer, but you can accidently charm a mob you don't want. You're not going to win with dia unless you're lucky.

3) Make target npc macro. Have a macro like this, and nothing else;
/targetnpc
/ja "Provoke" <t>
Simply spam this thing when you think/know the NM will spawn soon. For optimal efficiency you want to be targetting nothing with the above macro, as it can't be used as quickly.

4) Learn to position yourself and your camera. This is mainly for above. Camera position will often have a large effect on whether or not you can target something.

5) Kill the mobs around the spawn area. A lot of people don't do this, partly because they're lazy, partly because they don't want to possibly miss the NM, and partly because it forces people not to use the targetnpc macro. Don't be one of these people. Killing PHs make the mob spawn faster.

6) Pray to your god/s/ess/esses/whatever. Killing a NM 10x in a row and not getting the drop you want is very frustrating. You want luck on your side. ;)

[obmar]

OK - good discussion all

I never expected everyone to agree with the idea. Those that do, should send feedback - those that don't (I notice mostly people that already have one) that's ok too.

Making this item ex/rare reduces one thing - the non-bard/bst campers. If you can't make a buck off it, you won't camp it.

Competition would still be there - but at least I would know that the guy that just stole my NM is getting his and leaving the area right? No multiples see?

So yeah, maybe it gets a little easier to get, so what? Shortened camp times are ALWAYS a good thing. I don't think anyone is going to stand up and say that camping an NM for 10 hours straight is why they play the game... it's just not the "fun" part.

Thanks for all the feedbacks (if you sent one)

Obmar

[LikeWhoa]

Puttin my 2 cents in. Making it Rare and Ex is just stupid. Anything that promotes a cookie cutter build (once you get high enough lvl then you go kill this mob and get it, etc etc) is a baaad thing. However making it simply Rare would be a good idea because it would cut down SOME time from those people that simply camp for profit, since it would make them at least sell it first (dunno if merely putting it up for sale would work).

However, i'm just gonna put my idea forth for all NMs in general, because i personally hate that most of the NMs that drop high $$ items are low lvl and you can solo camp them (lizzy, jack, signa bird i forget his name already, etc) with your lvl 60 char or somethin like that just sitting in 1 or 2 squares on the map. With the exception of quest nms, i think NM spawning should be completely randomized for the zone, giving that NM the capability to spawn anywhere. This would add a hint of danger to those lower lvl groups just leveling cause suddenly a high lvl mob can spawn near ya, but that adds to the excitement as well. As for the diehard campers, this would force them to actually have a full party or alliance to cover the whole map, greatly reducing the "My ping is better than yours" part of voking the NM. Personally i think its just stupid to be able to sit in one place and the NM is guarenteed to spawn within 20 feet of you, and its just a matter of time and luck.

Ok, well thats my idea, flame away as i know you diehards will.
*LikeWhoa gets into his falme resistant suit and hides behind a rock*

[voodoo]

i think you over-estimate the droprate of this NM.
anyone who comes away with 2(+) Monster Signas in 1 day is incredibly incredibly lucky.

[Tigre]

Here's one thing I have been unable to get an answer on:

How hard is Hoo Mjuu the Torrent or whatever? What I looked up said he was like lvl 17 or 18ish, same as the drop. This would make him ridiculously easy to defeat for anyone at the lvl 30 needed to even open bard, which is probably why ppl solo it and pull it ASAP.

Also, although I definitely wanna at least try for the staff, it certainly is not the end of the world if I don't even have it. There are other staffs that help with mp since I'm a Hume, or I could go brd/ninja and dual wield some boosting knives. But all in all, I'd still rather have it just to show it off :).

[Arto]

I Killed him earlier has a level 30 whm, got zealot mitts :( does anyone know how often he spawns etc?

[tomc1988t]

i may not be a bard...but getting Rare EX on monster signa would take alot of gil from peoples pockets...and then there would be 2-3x more JeJ and LL camping -_-; then NM hunting would become complete hell...and then there will be no money causing the crafted items (beetle gear ram mantles lizard gear ect.) will sky rocket for the crafters to make their money back..thusly screwing the whole community..THANK YOU! :(


the NM that drops bard staff is patheticly easy...if your in the upper 20's 27-30 ......it makes up for not having a JeJ or LL near windurst....because not many noobs know about that NM and no level 11 can kill it XD

[PetriW]

I'm just gonna chime in with the this is a stupid idea crowd. The Signia will not be easier to get just because others can't farm it, it'll just mean that all the people who buy it will also farm it. ;)

[DipNSniff]

I don't even want a Monster Signa, I prefer a dagger for the MP draining Weapon Skills or renkei possibility (giving a MB possibility). Before level 50 I found myself with enough time to gain 100% TP every 1-4 battles (in bad to good groups) and post level 50 with the reduction in singing time I find myself with more free time where I could be benefiting in melee combat (this is of course by busting my hump to be the best I can be). I'm of the mindset that Bard melee > Bard resting in most situations, unless the monster is such that curagas are used often.

Annnnnyhow, got way off topic there :) Here's what I think about the NM problem on this:



"Monster Signa has no encumberances"
This benefits the lazy guy who doesn't want to seek out the item him or herself, as well as the guy who camps the NM for hours on end with the fastest connection / pull.


"Monster Signa is rare"
Again the lazy guy who doesn't want to seek out the NM and kill it benefits along with the high level / fast pull guy who camps the NM for hours on end. The camper gets the added annoyance of going to town and ridding him or herself of one before moving on to get another, which in all actuality does very little since the item is more likely NOT to drop than drop in an average sitting (get one and then sell it is the norm already).


"Monster Signa is rare+ex"
This benefits the people who will actually use the item and want to get it themselves (or can't afford it). He/she cannot be consistently bullied out of the opportunity to get one as is possible under the current no encumberance status.


Sooo... I'd go with rare-ex myself. I'd rather have it so the item is accessible to everyone through one method (fighting the NM over and over) where everyone has to work for it while no one gets bullied out (once someone has it they are eliminated from the competition permanently). This is much better than the way it is now where campers and buyers benefit bullying out the players who want to work for the items but are denied the opportunity. To get off topic again I'm fed up with Stray Mary too; the cycle is Brd/Thf (me) kills 900 Mad Sheep, Thf/Rgr kills Stray Mary. I am bullied out of every opportunity to fight the NM, even after earning the opportunity, playing as the job I should be to actually USE the drop of all things while the undeserving player steals the spoils.

[Seance]

camped about six to eight hours, fought him three times. Had thf 16 subbed. Dropped Scroll of Deodorize. Dropped Zealot's Mitts. Dropped Zealot's Mitts. And one time it didnt spawn for 2hrs 30 minutes and I left out of disgust.

Now I know why its 300k =P

[Ugnaught]

maybe I'm just lucky but on my server this item only sold for 2k in Windhurst and 15k at Bastok. I just checked last night. Sure there hadn't been any sales since last year in Bastok but the one in Windhurst that sold for 2k was purchased on the 15th of Jan 2004.

I've also gone out to the spawn site and there was hardly anyone out there. So even if someone did grab it from the NM and ran it to Windhurst they would be hard up to sell it for 300k.

I haven't checked the prices at Jueno yet so it may go for much much higher there.

[sudo]

The price drop has a very good explination

THE NORTH AMERICAN LAUNCH

the game has been out in japan for a year plus now and pretty much anyone who needed or wanted one over there already has one, the demand for the thing fell to nothing so prices fell with it

as the servers are now full of north american die hard players for the first time, demand just went through the roof and prices will continue to be that high as long as some ppl out there are willing to spend real money to buy gil to afford the best eq possible

Just wait it out in my opinion. After a few months when everyone figures out what job they want to be to lv 75 -80 etc etc, the demand for it will fall as all those that want and need it already has one and some high leveled ppl with too much gil will have to sell it to clear up inventory space ... hehehehe or so I hope




:sweat:

[Weezingpipes]

I sort of agree it should be flagged RARE/EX mostly because I agree with the guy who said there is no challenge to it. Part what I dislike about NM's is some of them have super great items but take 0 effort to kill, so its mostly an exercise in frustration to have a provoke/chi blast/dia war with 10 other people 24 hours a day 7 days a week on *any* notorious monster. If anything a lot of these items need to be taken out of newb zones and put on higher level monsters, and replace the items with something more suitable to the level. If this was done, then I see less reason to have a RARE/EX tag. It is actually a great thing very few items are not tradeable, look at what No Drop flagged items did to Everquest, creating tons upon tons of literally wasted items. To this date I've tried camping multiple NM's including Argus, Valkurm Emporer, Leaping Lizard, among many others for minimal at best gain, and these are for items I would actually WEAR, not sell. What is baffling is the NM's which aren't camped and are higher level drop complete crap - does it really make sense that a level 8 monster drops a 200-300k item, but a level 30-40+ monster drops a 5k item?

There is a term for this : its called bottom feeding. Forced to kill spawns which are incredibly low level for drops denies content to people of said level range and in general is just bad in games. It isn't challenging, its boring as hell. You can't even compare things like people killing lowbie crawlers for Silk for crafts to this. You are comparing monsters which spawn in great multiples to monsters which are rare and unique.

I'll give an example of a GOOD NM. There is a goblin NM in Onzozo (name escapes me), which a level 45-50ish party could kill, drops I believe a level 47 earring with 5% to magic damage, among some other spells which are appropriate for the level. So it takes some effort for a higher level player to solo, is a good challenge to a party, and can give good rewards. Basically that earring is on par with the quality of many items in terms of useful efficacy including Monster Signa, Emporer Hairpin, etc. The difference? 1 NPC is intelligent design, the others are not.

And for those who think its unfair for crafters to be able to rake in cash if this is made RARE/EX, consider the amount of effort which goes into raising a craft and making desireable items - not just the gil investment, the time spent too. Fact is, the people who are opposed to any change are opposed because they want to have provoke wars with 10 other people and hopefully luck into a fast buck. Heaven forbid you have to put effort into money making. Crafting is balanced - it rewards people for time and money investment at getting better at creating items. NM hunting low level monsters for overpriced items is bottom feeding.

[imac2much]

I see your argument, weezing, but it is inherently flawed.

You want a good way to earn money from NM's, instead of just killing lowbie monsters and NMs for high priced goods right? First of all, you are basically saying that the ONLY GOOD items should be dropped by super high level monsters (70+). Because if it was lower, the NM will eventually be 'low level' to someone right? Well that's what HNMs are for. Also, you are then saying there should never be any GOOD HARD TO GET items that are low-mid level equippable. It wouldn't make sense for a lvl 70 HNM to drop a lvl 15 staff right?

Next, have you ever heard of BCNM? BCNM40 is the best way to make money. If you want to use strategy, take the time to make a good party, etc, just do BCNM40 a couple times, and you'll have enough money to buy that monster signa. This would probably take less time than camping for it, takes much more interaction and skill, and thus should quench your desire for an "intelligent" NM. Camping NMs is more for those people who don't have the time/are too lazy to form a good PT, get good equipment/items, and make a good strategy for BCNM.

People who keep arguing for a certain selfish change are just thinking the grass is greener on the other side. First of all, this item, and many other 'VERY GOOD' items that are expensive, is not NECESSARY (leaping boots, etc). You can have a good BRD/THF/whatever without them... but obviously if you have it you'll be a bit better. What exactly is the point to make it easy to get? The people who work the hardest and put in the most time SHOULD have better equipment and stats than those who don't. And if you don't want to waste all that time, you can STILL have fun and play the job properly. I think it's good to have certain non-essential items and equipment that are hard to get, since it shows you spent the time to do it. If you make it questable, everyone will have it (even if it's a hard quest, all you need is a high level to help, since it seems most players love begging for help).

[Weezingpipes]

So what you are saying is high levels should be farming level 8-30 monsters because nothing around their level drops anything worthwhile? Makes sense...

You're right, the items aren't a necessity and are a nicety if anything. NM's however are not for people LACKING time, they are for people who can sit around for 12 hours a day trying to win provoke wars. If you don't win the provoke war guess what - your time has been wasted.

Here would be intelligent itemization : Leaping Liz drops +1 dex +1 agi boots, fitting for the level who can wear them. The current boots are moved to a level 30 something monster instead. Valkurm Emporer drops a +5 evasion +2 dex 2 def head slot item or something - again, fitting for the level of those who can wear them. Does it make sense Ochu's in Rolanberry which are higher level drop a head piece which is worse? No, it doesn't. It makes 0 sense that lower level equipment is desireable enough that level 50 even 60+ players wear it. Have the better stuff on higher monsters, make it scale properly. Why am I still wearing Battle Gloves at 54? Because there is literally nothing better for the job I play. If anything, the game needs more NM's in more zones with equipment that is desireable for that level range. The people camping NM's aren't people even close enough to that level range - its almost always level 50-60+ players. Why? Because it is profitable, or the items are still desireable to them.

On the topic of BCNM's and HNM's - face facts. Some jobs simply won't be wanted for BCNM's (in fact some of them its a waste of a party slot to have them), especially BCNM40. How many Dragoons, Thief, Summoners go to BCNM40? Yep, none. I see you're a PLD - no wonder you just say "oh just go farm BCNM40". Congrats, you picked one of the staple jobs which makes BCNM40 stupidly easy. If you wanna do BCNM, you don't screw around, you pick the jobs for the fight which make it fastest and easiest. Since BCNM 50 is a waste of seals, the only other option is BCNM60 - you know, the ones you won't win without a party of level 60's? Yea those ones. As far as BCNM 40 goes, sure you will probably make a combined total greater than the worth of some of these NM drops - except its split 6 ways. So seriously, show me a DRG, SMN, WHM, WAR, THF and RDM who finish BCNM40 with no deaths. That would be a good fight. Wanna talk having a good strategy for BCNM when you just use the exact same BCNM strat that 100% of ALL players use for ALL BCNM 40's that actually win?

But what about the HNM! Yea, the things which take alliances to mash down. That's a cash crop for sure, again, 60+ crap which is completely unrelated to camping some level 18 spawn in Giddeus. Sorry I stand corrected. I watched a single party consisting of a NIN, WHM, RDM, BRD, BLM and MNK kill Serket. It took 2 tries, and when they won it took 40 minutes.

Sitting at a spawn for hours and winning a provoke war doesn't fall under "hard to get" equipment. Its random luck. Its a matter of who has the worst resolution so the monster fades in the fastest and doesn't have any lag when their gank macro goes off, and when you finally claim that spawn, kill it in 2 hits, you know being 40 levels above that monster makes you a good player. You really earned it.

[sudo]

Well all this monster signa bashing aside, I have a question.

I ran searches during peak hours on the bismarck server when there were almost 6000 ppl on and I only found about 120 bards while there were some 300-400 whm and warriors each floating around.

SO if there are only about 120 bards, and the game has been out for over a year, and someone has been getting at least one monster signa per day and possibly selling it....

where's all the extra signas? It's not like there's much other demand for it other than bst and I ran a search on that and only 90 bst were on. So that's slightly over 200 ppl in the game will ever need a monster signa.

So I am wondering who is buying the stuff? I mean only poor NA players don't have one yet but a check on that during mostly american times had only 35 bards in the game. So that means after 35 ppl buy the signa, no one will want one anymore.

The price can be whatever but if the guy can't sell it, well then maybe ppl will stop camping the guy and everyone else can have a shot at it if the REALLY want one.

Any comments?

[Talonus]

You also have to take into account people not logged on at any given time, people who have brd/bst levels but aren't on a brd/bst, people who had one and quit, etc etc. That accounts for a large number of people.

[imac2much]

Dude, weezingpipes, CHILL DOWN . Why the hell are you being so hostile? It's like you have a personal vendetta against me or other PLDs... geez. For one, I have never even camped a NM other than rams (which aren't really NMs, they spawn in 10 minutes) to try to pop a Rampaging Ram and Lumbering Lambert for that belt quest. So stop assuming things and pointing fingers. I never attacked you personally so I guess I would like the same respect.

Firstly, you are right that I suppose some jobs aren't wanted for BCNM's. You are wrong to assume PLD is the staple job for BCNM... you're probably thinking of the PLD using 2hr strat: that's not a good strat since that means you can only do BCNM every 2 hours. The most vital jobs for BCNM are BRD and RDM. MNK, PLD, etc are good if you use 2hrs, but again, that's not exactly recommended (it works, but it's better if you don't use 2hrs if you don't need to). Also, I know plenty of THFs that do BCNM (not DRG though).

I agree with you on the 'scaling up' concept of NM drops. It *would* make sense that lower level NMs have worse versions than higher level NMs... that indeed is pretty weird. But for something like Monster Signa, of which there are no other versions, I don't think this argument really applies. I guess you can make Monster Signa CHR+4 or something, and let some yagudo bard NM drop the CHR+8 version... actually I don't see why this wouldn't work, and I think it's a good idea. Hoo Mjue or whatever will still be camped, but not by super high levels probably.

But still... from what I have seen, most of the people camping Hoo Mjue are in the level 25-40 range. So maybe the camping will still remain constant. But, on the other hand, I'm pretty sure the price in AH would go down. Oh well.

Still, I disagree with the RARE+EX and questable item idea, but I think your idea is workable. Guess it's more of a personal preference.

[TheBruce]

You don't need a paladin for bcnm 40 if you know what your doing. Only class that is required is a bard. Don't even need a whm.

[Weezingpipes]

Well sorry if I seemed hostile, I wasn't, but I don't like being talked to like I am stupid which affected the tone of my response. That being said, nope, nothing against PLD, but like you said, some jobs are simply more desireable than others for these events.

Anyway, I think the more relevant point is that there simply aren't enough items scaled properly. Today I tried camping Archer Rings again, fruitlessly. Why should I want a level 30 item at 54? Well I wanted it to sell to buy a level 40 crafted item, but anyway.. more specifically, why were there a 50 something RDM, 60+ warrior (he was anon just saw the full fighter's gear) and and some other 50-70's camping this drop? If anything its the lack of items to fill in the gaps which is why you have 10+ people at any NM. I check a few quite regularly, never have I seen for example only 1 person at Valkurm Emporer or Leaping Liz etc, and rarely is there less than 5-6 people camping Stroper Chymes. The only NM's I seldom if ever see camped is like...the pugil in Buburimu or the bird there..but the drops suck and no one would buy them anyway...

What I think would fix this nicely is a lot more NM's in like Crawler's Nest, Garlaige, and higher up places too - stuff a single group could kill, get a decent drop, lotto for it/sell and split among the party or whatever.

If any of you played Everquest during Kunark, you will understand the following example. Back then, the place to exp was Sebilis, which had a pile of named monsters with assorted drops that were useful to people of that level. Groups got the drops, randomed/gave to whoever needed or whatever, but it was still equipment which required a level 50ish group to get, and most of it was in fact useful to the people who were fighting the monsters to get it. So anyway, consider at level 50 the common exp grind spots : Garlaige, Crawler's Nest just as 2 examples. In neither place have I ever seen an NM while exping besides Serket which doesn't really count. Most groups I walk away with a handful of crystals that aren't really of any value, maybe get the odd chest key or something, again, not quite the same amount of $$$ you rake in killing lowbie monsters. So what if they added like some NM beetles or crawlers or whatever in those places? I know there is a NM bat in Garlaige, but its not near where anyone fights really and probably would only be killed by a higher level camping it.

Add NM's, add a few drops people could use for that level, the content is still challenging, and people are rewarded for their time, and it doesn't really drastically affect the market - if anything it improves it, because there are too few items to upgrade to for many jobs. Adding more items would fill in the awkward gaps along the way to AF armor + (ie for many jobs the best gloves for 42 levels are Battle Gloves), and in general people would be able to exp group for equipment upgrades rather than bottomfeed to afford them. Basically it would make the game a lot more like the Sebilis example in Everquest (to those who still don't get the analogy, sorry ^^).

After playing Everquest for 4 years, I see a lot of the flaws in that game (ie excessive no drop items) and thankfully don't see the same ones here. If anything I would hope S-E would learn from the mistakes in games like Everquest and use them to improve problems in this game. Part of the problem is the automatic rarity of items period in the game - simply put, NM drops aren't common at all. While its good because it helps control the inflation to a degree, its bad to create bottlenecks, especially bottlenecks which spill over into other lower levels' game play.

[obmar]

great discussion guys - gotta love it- this is what boards are all about

anyway

make it ex and rare and only people that need it will go for it

put it on a damn lvl 100 mob for all i care - at least that is a challenge

"provoke-wars" with 5-6 other people is not only a complete waste of time, it's bad game design.

obmar

[Rekiem]

Its so ridiculous, the monster spawn with a pink name :rolleyes:
That item should be given from a quest.

[Mylek]

I see nothing ridiculous about it. So a bard has to pay either 300k or compete with other players hunting a NM to get the best +cha weapon available for their job. Other jobs must pay millions of gill to get some of their top notch items. I consider bards to be quite lucky in terms of cost and availability of equipment. Asking for another break is like a slap in the face of the other jobs who must spend so much more to be the best they can be.

If you are not willing to put down the time or the money to get a monster signa staff then wait until you can use your AF knife for +2 cha, or a Shell Buster for +4 cha.

[imported_Hechicera]

When I first read this thread I thought it was a bit silly, possibly an overreaction. The high price in AH (near 300K consistantly on my server) didn't bother me. I prefer to camp my own drops, and once my Bard started getting lullaby resists in regular PT play wearing the affordable low-end CHA items, I hopped on my 30 WHM and went down to promptly camp it myself.

I'm not sure how it is on your server, but on mine its a big production. Some people are perma-logged out there .. looks like alt chars since as soon as its killed at least 2 ppl log back out .. and reappear 10 mins before next spawn. The closest in level to me was a 35. Most people were doing 100-250 points in damage per swing. The ones doing low 100s were the mages ... Others come in to join a BLM permalogged there who then Warp IIs the camp crew out after each kill. FYI my average hit is about 20.

I sat thru 6 spawns, no staff. I did get 2 of the spawns, but it still seems like really silly game design. It looks like to be able to get it in under a weeks worth of camping it every spare minute I have .. I need to get my LS to blanket cover the area with 3-4 vokers (as I saw done). Why can't I be asking them to come do something .. I don;t know .. fun? instead?

As well, many fellow NA players were being stinky, like trying to use Galka to block views of ppl not in their LS, and repeated examining (same one over and over and over). So its the type of game setup that can lead to a lot of negative game experiences not positive.

So even though I think I could eventually get my own staff ... I'm on the "It should be changed" side now. At least on my server that place is really silly ...

[Seance]

I've camped this for a week and spent many hours trying to obtain one. I finally picked up one up with a friend, but since I was with a friend, we split it and divided what we got for it at Jeuno AH. ( I still need my own ). I had 16thf subbed when hunting Hoo and its truly an excruciating process. I've killed Hoo about nine times before he dropped it and have seen him around eighteen times.

Yea I agree with you when you say it's silly and boring and unfair to be competing with everyone else to get Monster Signa. But I like the fact that it is that hard to get. Why? Because when I see a bst or brd carrying one of those around, I go, Wow, that guy must've worked real hard to get one of those. If every bard or beast was carrying one around, what would be the fun in that?

It's a luxury item. Thus everyone shouldn't have it.

Edit: And furthermore, us bards have it so good compared to some of the other mage jobs. My songs in the 40s cost nothing compared to how much whm's and blm's have to dole out. A few 10k equipment here and there and a 300k staff, and we're set.

---------
just my opinion, i respect yours as well.

[imported_Hechicera]

I'm all for hard.

Hard and fun is great.

Hard and excruciatingly boring, as well as an ideal atmosphere for asocial players to be ..well .. asocial, is not good game design.

Frat hazing design good - maybe. Game design - no.

If the staff is this good it should be hard, but not hard in this way.

[Arto]

Ive camped him awhile now and killed him 10 times and not got it, it's rather frustrating but im still staying until i get one.

[Hechicera]

Well, now as I'm nearing the end of my seconds day and 18th hour of working this spawn on my server.

I have decided that if/when I do get it, it won't be an accomplishment. I feel I need it to get 2 LSs thru BCNM 40 s to gear up. When I do get the NM, it luck. No skill. No fun. I happened to be in the right place and the right cycle in spamming my hoykey ...

.. and when someone else gets it ... what is the accomplishment in having 6-8 people all sanding in the same spot and all spamming variations of the same hothey? Nothing I can tell.

I willl not pay one of the L60s-70s in better than AF gear for one either now. Not after seeing how it goes.

To any who say its an accomplishment .. all I can say is pfffffft. It takes zero skill to stand there and spam a hot key for 20 minutes every 90 minutes and then kill a L17 mob. None.

[Seryu]

Rare/Ex would be nice, especially since it's already a low level item, but I think Weezing had the best plan, just don't put such great items on easy kills. -.-

[imported_Hechicera]

Well after day 2, 25 hours total camping. No staff.

My LS came out with multiple THF and we covered the spawn area. We absolutely cannot beat latency. It spawned purple every time with every single one of us macro targeting.

The sad part is that most of the campers were high levels with no THF main or sub ... they all said they only got deoderize.

This blows holes in the argument that camping it as is leads to more staffs in circulation. IMHO in the last 2 days on my server .. it has lead to less.

[Moo]

Dear Square-Enix,

Get rid of Hoo Mjuu.

Have the Monster Signa be a reward for completing BCNM40. You know... something that requires SKILL instead of loads of time and luck.

And while you're at it, get rid of Leaping Lizard and all those other incredibly easy NMs that drop 200k loot. Put the items on something that is appropriate risk vs. reward.




Love,

Codi




P.S. (If this happened, I wonder what would become of all the Antisocial NM campers. They wouldn't know what to do with themselves.)

[Weezingpipes]

EXACTLY! I'd love to see NM's have rewards which scale properly for the level.

[Arto]

For the people who actually have a signa, how many times did you have to kill him to receive your reward?

[kaldyra]

i think the problem is not how rare the spawn / drop or how over crowded is the camping spot. but it's because this game is lack of +chr weapon for bards or beastmasters.

i browsed through the AH last nite, and i found no sword/staff/digger really will add some decent amount of chr. nothing else but only a +8 chr monster signa (or maybe only a +1 chr digger i don't quiet remember)

that means, if u want to buy a chr weapon (let's ignore armor pieces for now), your only option is to pay 200k for monster signa or get nothing; there is no other option say 25k for a +3 chr or 50k for a +4 chr or 100k for a +6 chr... NONE.


so... i think making the mob spawn more / remove the mob / change the weapon level / change the drop rate / change that to ex / whatever won't solve the problem; the best way is to add more +chr weapon, like a +3 and another +6 chr, they are not as super hard to attain as the monster signa. yes monster signa will be still the best one but then what's wrong if u want the best weapon then u will need to pay a lot of $ or camp for 100 hrs; for those who don't want to spend that much crazy $ or time they can pay less for an alternative weaker weapon.

just my 2 cents.

[imported_Hechicera]

I did get it. And I'm not changing my tune, it still needs to be changed. Any of the suggestions here would help: like alternate less-powerful pre-40 items, making it EX (rare only means you warp/mule it/ride back), changing the way of aquiring it to one that is appropriately hard and challanging .. etc .. anything.

3 days, 37 hours, 7 friends in 2 LSs three of us with TH, and 1 stranger ...

About 24 spawns seen in that time, 8 of them claimed by me solo or my PT. I had THF with Treasure Hunter at all times, on a few spawns we had two Treasure Hunter in PT. Of the 16 spawns I did not get, 15 of them did not have a Treasure Hunter and all got Deoderize or Mitts, the one staff in 3 days I saw drop that I did not get the person was anon and equipped staff for us .. but I am unsure if they had TH. I hear another one dropped between Day 1 and 2 when I slept also unsure if they had TH.

Again, from what I've read my server seems to have one of the more heavily camped spawns, its an older server - perhaps thats a factor. People do have (alts?) characters perma-logged here.

The spawn area is not that large, 2 people can stand stationary and cover all but one spot behind a tree. You need to minimize your graphics lag (low res) and make a target + your fastest attack macro .. and then you stand there and spam it. If you get a PH - better kill it fast and get back on the spam. A three man team can cover all possible spawn points and keep them under perma-spam macro. A four man team allows you to have a fast-killing floater to take place holders off the macro spammers and to clear other yagudo nearby (supposed to help).

1 - latency matters. Even the Japanese and Singapore based players were very surprised at the low percentage of spawns I had gotten. (My search comments indicated my goal and time spent) The first day and a half I was mainly solo - I got 2 spawns per day. Not only does Hoo spawn purple .. ever single PH and wasp spawns purple when campers are competing and he is know to be due to pop. One nice Japanese player actually joined our LS PT for a spawn cycle after seeing that latency realy did factor.

2 - if your serious and your LS wants you equipped for BCNM come out in force. Yes, one low latency player with something casting as fast as you can can beat you to a spawn every time even if you spam macro in front of him (happened). But! It takes 3 people to garuntee constant macro spam on every spawn ... it might spawn out of thier line of sight.

3 - bring treasure hunter, the more the better. This is huge.

4 - stay out in force with no stop even between spawn times. A lot of the regular farmers and people who are perma-logged there will log in/run by and see if its camped ... if 6-8 people are already there .. they usually move to another NM in the area. His spawn time is irregular but follows a pattern, knowing the pattern and time of his last spawn is an advantage.


Or go to a new server with fewer career NM campers with no trasure hunter and pray you get lucky. ^^ But the above is what it took for me. It is no accomplishment, it was boring, tediuos and unchallenging. The only thing I have proven is that I have nice friends that are willing to also have 2 days of thier playing time ruined to make us a better team. ; ;

[Trell]

I agree with alot of weezing's ideas. Before I ever read this thread, having faced this problem when I camped my Signa, I thought there were plenty of solutions to this problem:

1) Make the item Rare\EX.
2) Change the properties of the Staff so it reflects the level needed to fight The Torrent.
3) Add more weapons with CHR enhancements in the game, leaving us with more options than having to camp for days or being extorted out've 300K Gil for this item.

Any combination of these three options will make things better. It will make sure that the people camping The Torrent are actually people who can put it to good use, as opposed to greedy bottom feeding higher level players just looking to extort money from those who would have a real use for it. If every warrior out there camping it was actually a bard who changed jobs in order to provoke it, as someone suggested earlier, there wouldn't be that many Signas at the auction in Jeuno, selling for a ridiculous price. Noone in his or her right mind who actually has a legitimate use for a Signa would sell it. I definately will never sell mine. It is complete folly to think that any of these changes will adversly affect the economy in any appreciable way. Puh-lease.

If it seems like it would be unfair to all the people who wasted hours camping in order to get one, I'm sorry but just because you had hours of boredom to spare, it doesn't mean that the process in getting one is well conceived. I had to camp for it too and when I FINALLY got it, it didn't feel like any kind of accomplishment. It felt like I wasted alot of time because of bad game design. People who don't have the luxury to play this game 24/7 shouldn't be penalized for it with long boring processes like this. It's true that in many cases, it is unavoidable (ex: 5 hour long quests), but in this case, it can be avoided.

JR.

[Thingol]

I have to admit.. Overall I liked the way EQ did NM's more. A NM could drop a set number of items but, while some were a bit better than others, you never killed a NM and got NOTHING! Yea some dragons, gods and such had 1 week or more spawn times but at least when you killed them you knew you were going to get the goods. I have found nothing more frustrating than waiting all day or more for a NM to spawn, killing it and getting abosluetly nothing at all... then doing it over and over... at the end of 3 days you still have nothing at all... sad