Why DRG/SAM isn't so Godly

[Sanguine]

Well, I'm here to let you guys know my experience with the so called godly DRG/SAM combo at level 60+ exp groups and why it's not all it's cracked up to be.

Disclaimer: I want everyone to know that I don't think Samurai is a *BAD* subjob above level 60, it's just that there are more desirable options in an optimal exp PT. Also I want to let everyone know that BCNM hunts are totally different and that is where the Samurai subjob really shines.

It seems every post that asks for advice on subjob gets the following reply.

Level 1-60, Warrior or Thief
Level 60+ Samurai

Why is this? There seems to be this idea that because you can meditate (and this is the ONLY, again I stress ONLY, reason that you would subjob a Samurai) you can crank out an insane amount of WS (namely Penta Thrust).

Why isn't this a good idea? Because no one besides a fully refreshed + balladed PLD can keep hate off you (and even then it's sometimes sketchy). What happens if you have a Ninja Tank? What about a Warrior Tank? Already I hear people saying "You have High Jump and Super Jump though right?" Here's the truth:

Even though you have better hate mitigation than the DRK (or any other damage dealing class for that matter), you still CAN'T do it every single battle unless you're in one of those 1000 exp an hour type groups. When you're in those 5000 exp+ per hour type groups, you're going to be pulling in mobs so fast that your normal Jump timer won't have refreshed by the time the next mob comes in. How are you going to be using Super Jump and High Jump consistently? Answer: You can't.

Some of you may say, but you also get the Store TP ability! That's godly! Right? Right?

Fact: You gain 12 TP per hit with a lance. With the Store TP ability at level 30, you get around 2 more TP per hit. Every full strike Penta Thrust will only net you 69% TP as opposed to 60% TP. 9% TP isn't going to make or break a Dragoon with the ability to get 12% TP per hit along with your two Jumps.

Now, what do you lose by subbing a Samurai in your exp group?
In my humble opinion there is only 1 real optimal subjob above level 60 for the good exp groups. That is the Warrior:

Berserk: Huge gains in ATK, the ability to do consistent damage while still letting your tank maintain hate. This also ups your average WS damage.

Provoke: Great utility. In the event your tank DOES lose control, you have the ability to provoke and save your casters. Note that this is a Last Resort (Lookie I made a funny).
It can also be used in a party of DRG THF NIN as the front liners so that the DRG can provoke while the THF uses Fuidama on the NIN to ensure hate for the rest of the battle.

Double Attack: Another consistent damage tool. This can also help your Penta Thrust because it does (albeit rarely) add an extra attack to make your Penta Thrust hit 6x (if all connected).

In the end, you sacrafice WS burst damage for more consistent damage and utility making you that much more valuable to your group. So kids, don't jump onto the Samurai subjob bandwagon, it just ain't so hot :)

Added: The Wyvern
Ah yes, forgot to mention the added damage from the wyvern for all the WS you do with samurai sub. The painful truth is, if by some luck your wyvern is at 100% HP (very rare) and by the same luck that your wyvern selects the correct element that the mob is weak to (Such as Frost Breath on Pugils) then you will get an additional 150+ish damage (with AF3 helm).

On the other hand, when your Wyvern decides to drown a pugil with its Hydro breath, you're going to get the ownage 20 damage added. All I can say is, when you average it all out, the 1-2 extra renkeis you did as a samurai will add negligible damage to your total damage output. Rather sad really, the single defining feature of the Dragoon, negligible :(

P.S I'm sure I missed some relevant facts but this is all I could think of at this time >_< So sue me ^_^;;

P.P.S Did I mention I really hate levelling up Warrior? I hate levelling Warrior!

[Yoss]

It makes sense, I've been doing searches on all the lvl 60-75 dragoons on my server...and if there are roughly 15-20 of them on, atleast 70-80% have a war sub. Maybe 1 or 2 thief subs, and maybe 1-2 sam subs.

It looks like it would be hard to play, but if you had a really competent thief and paladin combo, would it be possible? Or even a paladin & drk/thf combo? Or is just too risky?

[GSDragoon]

Exactly. It's all about hate control. That is why I think THF will work good. Trick attack is great for controlling it. I'm going to be playing my DRG (only lv12 right now) with my bro all the time. He's going PLD. He's awesome and keeping hate and making sure he's set up for my THF abilities.

[Weezingpipes]

I've had this discussion with some friends of mine who insist SAM is the way to go. I'm not 60+ yet (only 50 now) and I do believe WAR makes the more useful sub, and I'm glad to see this post honestly. I agree Samurai is definately a very viable and useful sub, but for practicality sake, shit happens. Sometimes it is useful if you can provoke and defender and soak a couple hits (PLD gets 1 shotted by a sickle slash/jet stream type ability), or someone gets disconnected, its just things which *happen*. Samurai can't do that. You can get agro, do Third Eye, and die 20 seconds later. I also consider all the abilities you give up for what basically amounts to subbing a job for 1 ability. The extra TP gain amounts to 1 swing difference, you lose double attack and berserk, a slight defense bonus which is *something*. I also would use defender as a way to lower hate for 30 seconds or so and click it off provided Super Jump/High Jump wasn't up. Very likely to happen in high activity exp parties. On paper Samurai sounds fantastic...as it is my agro is pretty high with warrior sub, I couldn't imagine a PLD keeping agro off me consistantly if I had samurai as a sub at 60+. As THF sub goes, it doesn't seem like a desireable tradeoff to me to lose all the warrior abilities in favor of a using an ability which doesn't work as effectively as it used to, or at least doesn't work as effectively in most party formations. Might be fun to try but I'd lean warrior personally.

And yea, leveling warrior sucks terribly. I wish I had leveled warrior to 30 first instead of thief so I wasn't stuck in awful awful Qufim groups.

Just my own opinion, was the way I was going and hope some folks put some thought into it before immediately going /sam.

[Dragoon_K]

well these are all valid points. I went through the samuria quest and man it was rough. I think it's well worth it to sub Samuria, I used the combination last night for the first time and I was very impressed. I was doing very good damange along with getting the agro on me for a little part of the battles. I despise warrior, warrior tanks and dies that's all they are good for. (just angry opinion they are better than that but seems to happen to much). Double attack is great, however if you sub warrior with Dragoon, people will expect you to tank, and provoke as much as you can. I don't like that if you add the damage you'll be doing, it'll always be on you. So for my character and what I feel is best for me, is Dragoon/Samuria. It'll be differnt for everyone, but thank you for posting this, it opened my eyes to a few things I didn't relise and can look out now.

[Thoronas]

I believe someone posted here several months ago about subbing sam with drg at lvl 60+ saying that it showed you weren't a team player. Instead of trying to be part of the renkei all you want to do is spam Pentathrust.

[Riva]

All the High level Drg on my server seem to be warrior subs, also a few thf. I will prob just stick with war sub, tired of leveling.

[struck]

The only reason why samurai sub isn't used as much on Dragoon is because of the need to set up for the Thief. Nothing else has changed. Drg/War doesn't stack up to Drg/Sam in damage. Drg/War is simply if you want to hold hands with Thiefs on your way to 75.

[Sanguine]

Struck: 2 questions I'm curious about

1) What happens if you have a Ninja tanking?
2) What is there that I'm missing that Samurai sub will out damage a Warrior sub over a long span of time?

I'd love to continue playing as a DRG/SAM, but from my point of view (and several others that are 70+), it is only good for BCNMs.

I'd rather masturbate with this cheese grater than level up my Warrior sub, so I'm all ears.

[d3vilmaycry]

I think Dragoon is still a great main job when consider subbing SMN. I mean, which other job has an ability that shakes off hate easily? I bet other jobs has to hold back way more than Dragoon and becareful with their WS when subbing SMN.

Never the less, good points ^^ Becareful spamming hard hit attacks ^^

[Tokitoki]

I hope you mean SAM and not SMN. I dont see why people cant figure out how to abbreviate.

[Ayako]

If your THF is worth their weight they won't need you to sub WAR. If your PLD can't keep hate, he isn't worth his weight. If your NIN can't keep hate, he isn't worth it. A Ninja should be equipping hate up equipment to make up for the lack of PLD abilities.
My current favourite combo is PLD, DRG, DRK. The PLD keeps hate as usual, with the renkei being Swift > Cross, or Daisha > Spin. The DRK subs THF and Fuidamas' me. First renkei, he uses Darkness, I super jump. Next time, I high Jump. The nice part is our PLD is good enough to keep hate through it all, half the time, so I don't even need to. The basis to my argument is, if you are unable to perform your job it means your tanks aren't. It's not your job that's broken, it's theirs.
WAR has it's merits, but SAM is far better.
Your Wyvern argument is totally wrong. With AF helm she will do the correct element everytime. Yes, every time.

[Lone Dragon]

"It." ;x

[Akimatu]

I agree with the post above^^ I am looking forward to Samurai Subjob at Lv. 60, but so far WAR/THF are going to make really good sub jobs below Lv. 60.

Also when soloing for items or helping lower Lv. with quest, I don't think nothing ever stacks up to DRG/SAM.

DRG/SAM all the way for me.

[Sanguine]

If it is as far superior as Ayako says, what are all these rank 10 level 70+ Dragoons missing? Are they total morons that they would intentionally gimp themselves day in day out by subbing a NON OPTIMAL subjob?

Lets be realistic here.

I concede that I was wrong about the AF3 helm thing since after I got the helm, the only time I've used it was for soloing and farming (using Emperor's Hairpin at the moment).

P.S As of 9:23pm Japan Time, on the Pandemonium server. There are in total 28 Dragoons at 60+. There is 24 Warrior subjobs, 3 Thief subjobs and 1 Samurai subjob. Funnily enough, that 1 Samurai subjob was me :D

[Ayako]

Or you could check their search comments, if their comment is at all PT get related, then they will have SAM listed. If they are in a party, you don't know what their lineup could be, they could have a clueless thief or a clueless leader. People who don't play your job won't ALWAYS know whats best for it. For example, I invited a SAM/RNG the other day, and asked her to sub WAR. It didn't dawn on me how assrocking it would be to have her blowing off Sidewinders like crazy. I didn't even think of it until I saw her Euripides Bow, I even apologized.
Warrior is NOT a bad sub. You aren't gimping yourself by using it, since it has it's qualities. Hell, the person could just be lazy and not want to level a boring class. It's not like they are playing DRG/SMN or something, that would be gimping.

[Sanguine]

Ayako, you miss the whole point of my post.

First off, I'm not talking about the super rare but surprisingly effective subjobs like RNG for SAM. I certainly don't see the Samurai forum suggesting 65+ subjob of RNG as though it were the god-send subjob that everyone must have.

Secondly, from the beginning of my post, I stated that Samurai is not a bad subjob. Just that it is NOT the cookie cutter subjob 60+ like everyone says.

Thirdly, you're telling me to look in their comments to see if they do indeed have a Samurai as an option. That's fine. Lets make a comparison over to another class. WHM characteristically subjob a BLM correct? However! In their comments they will sometimes have "Subjob: RDM, BRD, SMN dekimasu!"

So what does this mean to our scenario? All DRGs subjob WAR as their default, for good reason. Because it's the most versatile and *Party Beneficial* (Note the bold) subjob.

Looking for PT is like advertising in some ways. There's a pool of those god damn fucking melee damage dealers right? You're going to have to stand heads and shoulders above them. What do you advertise? Your optimal (for the PT) subjob. Right ? Right ? If some high ranking, high level dragoon Japanese players are lazy and "can't be bothered" levelling up a Samurai subjob (as Ayako says). Doesn't that tell you something? Not worth the effort comes to mind.

[Awntawn]

Actually, samurai sub is more party beneficial. Penta spam on it's own isn't party beneficial :sweat: skillchain is. With war sub you can penta spam -or- skillchain, with sam sub you can do both. In fact I think war sub's penta spam is more damaging... but sam sub is more useful.

[DarkHero]

can't you self renkei with penta > skewer?

[Sanguine]

Yes but the added damage from the self renkei is like utter shit. And if you find a WHM MBing Holy from it, I suggest you mutilate said WHM.

[Potsnu]

Sanguine, you hit everything right on the money. I wanted to persude Sam sub at 60+, but now I'm having second thoughts, mainly because of the few things you pointed out.

First of all, I'm 57 right now. If I were to Penta spam everytime i'm at 100%, I gain more hate than I can shake off. What does this mean? I"m wasting valueable MP causing unnecessary downtime and slowing down exp. I think a typical group considers 3k/hour as a good exp group. By constantly Penta spamming, you'll be getting considerably less than 3k/hour.

Now what is the main function of having a Sam sub over a War sub? The idea supposedly is gaining more TP and doing more Penta spam. This is not possible. There is no way you can control the huge amount of hate you'll gain by doing this. You'll just be wasting MP as I pointed out before. Yes you have Super Jump...but in a good PT, you'll manage to get 1 super Jump every 3 fights. I'm really wondering if Samurai sub is worth giving up all the great things a War sub has to offer.

Berserk is amazing. Your dmg output will be consistent, and it helps drastically with WS. Double attack is also a blessing. It goes off quite often as you go up in lvls, at least from what I noticed. The occasional 72% or even 84% is quite nice as well. You'll also have crappy stats with a Sam sub in comparison to a War sub.

All in all, all that extra TP you'll be gaining from a Samurai sub won't do you any good, simply because you can't control all the hate you'll gain. On the flip side of the coin, even a Good/Skilled Pld with Rdm in the group won't be able to hold agro off you. In the end, you'll be wasting MP, causing unnecessary downtime, and slowing down exp for the rest of the PT. With a Ninja Blink tank, Agro control becomes more an issue. This is because Ninja have a tough time holding agro in the upper lvls, unless they're filthy rich.

Before there is any confusion, I don't think Sanguine made this post for the purpose of putting down Sam as a support job. He is merely point out the fact that the Sam sub is not what everyone thinks it should be. When I first made a Dragoon, and read the posts on this forum, I was under the assumption Sam sub is the way to go for 60+ However, as I approached 50-60 lvls, I started to realize, I really need to moderate my hate and can't go all out if I want to be efficient in a group. NO one would group with a Drg that uses Penta everytime you have 100%.

I was relieved to open up this thread, because Sanguine shares the same thoughts and realizations I've made lvling as a Dragoon. When I do a /sea Drg 60-, I see that 80% use War sub, 10% use Thf sub, 5% use Whm sub, and 5% use Sam sub. Some would argue a Sam sub allows you to self renkei. That may sound good on paper, and seem like a cool idea...but its utterly useless. What renkei does that make? Light? Darkness? That does like what on IT's? 10-30 dmg? You're better off doing 2 Pentas instead of Penta > Skewer. Hell, if you time your Penta just before you Swing, than do 2 jumps afterwards, you can self renkei anyways. Only advantage I see with a Sam sub is that, you will no longer be stuck at that dreadful 96%. Sometimes that's ok, because you might get hit 2 times from agro, other times its annoying waiting for that extra hit before you can go again.

[Feday]

its not just being able to penta spam. It is being able to participate in any renkie and also throw a penta into the mix that makes the sam sub so great( from what ive read).

[Ayako]

Know when you have to use your jumps. Don't play with shitty tanks who rushed to level 60 without learning how to play their job. Play it for 10 levels before you make assumptions. Funny, I don't have a problem with any of the above. You see the black and white of it, SPAM PENTA OMFG IM GONNA GET SO MUCH HATE, It's not what you do. The times I have, hey, guess what, my Paladin isn't a total dipshit, and knows how to keep hate.

[Sanguine]

Everything's fine until you can't find a Paladin.

[Elusivellama]

Good to hear educated opinions on subjob choices at high levels! I'm new to this board, and I'm already tired of wading through the bs and flame posts to reach the few nuggets of useful info to be found ^^.

I had thought that DRG/SAM would be the ultimate, but I'm looking hard at my long term goal now. Can't really do damage if you get aggroed and die...mebbe I'll stick it out with DRG/WAR, since my WAR is already level 31.

[Stanislav]

Personally I would like to say this is pure BS

I started using DRG/SAM

If you make sure Mediate, High Jump and Jump are charged and your TP is at 100

Use it on the mob your party lures in the beginning

With this way you can crank out 4-6 penta thrusts and deal about 90% dmg to the monster your party is leveling on.

Then have the tank use a Skillchain with a THF to finish it off

Usually when I did 2-3 penta the NIN keeps hate fine especially when THF tricks off them.

I was tanking 50% of time but the mobs were finished off so fast It didnt matter, we had no downtime.

This was tested so far in Hidden Area at Delfutt's Tower Upper and Valley or Sorrows

This sub is purely amazing.

-- EDIT --

I forgot to mention from personal experiences NIN seem to keep aggro after my Penta rampage most of the time but PLD looses it right away, most likely cause NIN unloads decent dmg especially with their WS.

[Awntawn]

WAR sub is about penta spam... SAM sub is about skillchain...

You don't skillchain with penta... it's not compatible with anything good. Usually you use skewer or daisharin or something... WITH SOMEONE ELSE... The thing is with war sub, you'll charge up your TP only to skillchain again and never be able to land a penta in between. With SAM sub you can skillchain AND land a few pentas for good measure.

I don't know if our PLD is too good or whatnot, but Ayako jumps away the ~2000 damage skillchains that I slap onto her back with just high jump alone. With both high and super jump, we've got just about every skillchain covered; sometimes our PLD has the hate down so well that the monster doesn't even turn...

... And if your PLD sucks, it's not DRG/SAM's fault, so don't diss a good combo ;)

-------------------------------------

Daisharin > 200 damage
+
Spinslash > 850 damage
+
Level 3 Light renkei > 1200 damage
+
ThunderIII MB > 750 damage

---is greater than---

Penta > 90~350
Penta > 90~350
Penta > 90~350
Guillo > 100~420
Guillo > 100~420
ThunderIII > 250~500

Not only is the damage higher, it's assured. Skillchains and MB's don't get resisted or miss hits anywhere near as often... "Penta spam" and the like generally only works with a bard on VT's... On IT's you're gonna have trouble landing all 5 hits, and the damage will bite the big one.

[Hattori Hanzo]

And so I say . . .

Level THF, WAR, and SAM all to 37, and use appropriately.

[Shuketsu]

I'd just like to say... how the heck are you guys getting so much hate from penta? Either all of you have absolutely amazing equipment and I'm one gimped SOB, or the tanks you play with are horrible. I don't know about your pentas, but they're like Awntawn said, for me: 90~350 damage, maybe 400 or 500 if double attack goes off a few times(maybe 3 times a PT?). Penta really isn't that damaging. If I do pull the monster off, the tank normally sets it back pretty easily. As for the jumping issue, almost all the tanks I've PTed with are good enough to get the monster back from single high jump after my thief friend pokes me in the back with a viper bite. The only ones who can't are: Stupid paladins who splooge all of their skills prematurely at the beginning of the battle, and ninja who decide that they only need to taunt when the monster turns to the mages.

Note/Rant: Both Daisharin and Spinslash were buffed in the last patch. Why the hell is one doing 200, and the other 850?! ::sobs:: Ah well, at least Daisharin looks cool as hell...

[Kain99]

I have read through this entire thread thoroughly and have decided to lvl up War and Sam to 37 so that I can change between the two to fit the party setup. I am currently a Lvl 44 Drg/War on Ifrit and patiently awaiting Penta :biggrin: .

P.S. What exactly is Daisharin?

[sonova]

you will do more damage with penta if you skill chain it anyway

warrior you gain more consistent damage + utility

thf you get steal. yes only steal. the effects from gil finder and treasure hunter are irrelevant since theres almost always another thf in the party. please note that sneak attack with thf sub is sub optimal since it looks like stats dont focus subjob skills (yes i have tested this). which means your sneak attack hits only hit as if they were a normal crit not the 6-10x damage that main job thfs do and i suspect it is the same for trick attack.

sam you get the ability to do a solo chain which is not really that powerful. or to pentathrust an entire fight which is not really that powerful since you will probably need super jump to bleed the hate off so you are limited by your skill refresh timer unless you want to cause the WHM alot of stress

[Akimatu]

Well thats the idea for most people on the boards is to Mainly use Warrior for XP parties and then Sub Samurai while soloing or just for fun.

Personally I would like to think Samurai is nice for soloing but then again you wouldnt have the healing breath from the dragoon which is a plus like sanguine said in other threads.

But Ideally in a xp group you won't be able to use your Abilities as a Samurai in a XP group to its full potential because of the Super Jump Cool down time(ie. 5 mins). But thats what we are all getting at. A Warrior would be able to use his abilites (ie. Berserker/double attack) at its up most highest abilities, while parting for XP.

You gotta think, the game would be to unbalanced it Super Jump had a shorter Cool down time, because of the massive spam of penta and super jump. :sweat:

[Akimatu]

Thats whole other issue also, making the WHM waste its mana on you while you being a Dragoon that is not suppose to tank taking 100+ dmg from IT mobs, while the Paladin or Ninja would be taking a whole lot less DMG. So less dmg = less mana used = less downtime.

Don't be so selfish and try to look so cool dealing gobs and gobs of damage. Sure mobs will die faster, but more mana will be used if the hate is on you, unless who ever tanking is really good.

[Ragnarok54321]

Would DRG/DRK be good? DRK does alot of dmg and DRG aren't for tanking anyway so the subtracted defense wouldn't be that bad...would it?

[TMPikachu]

Originally posted by Potsnu
Sanguine, you hit everything right on the money. I wanted to persude Sam sub at 60+, but now I'm having second thoughts, mainly because of the few things you pointed out.

First of all, I'm 57 right now. If I were to Penta spam everytime i'm at 100%, I gain more hate than I can shake off. What does this mean? I"m wasting valueable MP causing unnecessary downtime and slowing down exp. I think a typical group considers 3k/hour as a good exp group. By constantly Penta spamming, you'll be getting considerably less than 3k/hour.

Now what is the main function of having a Sam sub over a War sub? The idea supposedly is gaining more TP and doing more Penta spam. This is not possible. There is no way you can control the huge amount of hate you'll gain by doing this. You'll just be wasting MP as I pointed out before. Yes you have Super Jump...but in a good PT, you'll manage to get 1 super Jump every 3 fights. I'm really wondering if Samurai sub is worth giving up all the great things a War sub has to offer.

Berserk is amazing. Your dmg output will be consistent, and it helps drastically with WS. Double attack is also a blessing. It goes off quite often as you go up in lvls, at least from what I noticed. The occasional 72% or even 84% is quite nice as well. You'll also have crappy stats with a Sam sub in comparison to a War sub.

All in all, all that extra TP you'll be gaining from a Samurai sub won't do you any good, simply because you can't control all the hate you'll gain. On the flip side of the coin, even a Good/Skilled Pld with Rdm in the group won't be able to hold agro off you. In the end, you'll be wasting MP, causing unnecessary downtime, and slowing down exp for the rest of the PT. With a Ninja Blink tank, Agro control becomes more an issue. This is because Ninja have a tough time holding agro in the upper lvls, unless they're filthy rich.

Before there is any confusion, I don't think Sanguine made this post for the purpose of putting down Sam as a support job. He is merely point out the fact that the Sam sub is not what everyone thinks it should be. When I first made a Dragoon, and read the posts on this forum, I was under the assumption Sam sub is the way to go for 60+ However, as I approached 50-60 lvls, I started to realize, I really need to moderate my hate and can't go all out if I want to be efficient in a group. NO one would group with a Drg that uses Penta everytime you have 100%.

I was relieved to open up this thread, because Sanguine shares the same thoughts and realizations I've made lvling as a Dragoon. When I do a /sea Drg 60-, I see that 80% use War sub, 10% use Thf sub, 5% use Whm sub, and 5% use Sam sub. Some would argue a Sam sub allows you to self renkei. That may sound good on paper, and seem like a cool idea...but its utterly useless. What renkei does that make? Light? Darkness? That does like what on IT's? 10-30 dmg? You're better off doing 2 Pentas instead of Penta > Skewer. Hell, if you time your Penta just before you Swing, than do 2 jumps afterwards, you can self renkei anyways. Only advantage I see with a Sam sub is that, you will no longer be stuck at that dreadful 96%. Sometimes that's ok, because you might get hit 2 times from agro, other times its annoying waiting for that extra hit before you can go again.

It sounds to me that you are saying warrior is better sub because it does less damage?

Couldn't a drg/sam just restrain himself, do /war damage, then spam away at the monster's last slivers of health?
or do WS's deliver a spike of hate greater than consistantly higher average hits?


on drg/drk

/war gives you berserk (better than last resort I hear)
and double attack
the only thing drk has going is a tiny MP pool for 1/2 level magic, and attack boost II (I think they can get att II)

[LunarGaze]

Well i personally agree with awntawn and ayako sorry if i spelled your names wrong. If everyone in the groups knows what they are doing drg/sam is good. I am going to sub war until lvl 60 then switch to sam sub. If they want a war sub then i will do that too if needed. My main sub will be Sam though. If your so worried about spamming penta's and getting hate why not just NOT spam them. If someone spams skillchains for nothing then they are an idiot and deserve the hate and ensues damage that befalls them. I only use TP in a skillchain personally. Again assuming everyone in the PT is competent which isn't hard to assume at lvl 60 your fine with a sam sub. Now if it were possible to try this is qufim on my server your dead most people at lower lvls aren't really good in PT's yet. lvl 60+ you should know what your doing. If the PLD sucks kicks him out and get another or grab a ninja or war/mnk or whatever tank you can find.

[Ragnarok54321]

Ok so if you sub DRK you don't have stronger attacks?

[sonova]

berserk lasts longer than last resort

i would only really sub DRK for souleater but berserk is plenty enough for me

[Ragnarok54321]

Who would do more using regular attacks? DRG/SAM or DRG/DRK?

[TMPikachu]

well, a samurai has no real bonus for 'normal' attacks

while a warrior has no 'special' attacks

[SelfdestButton]

I'd have to agree with Sanguine on pretty much all of his points, but I'll offer a counter-point anyway.

WAR= better consistent party benefits, people generally feel safer with another voker lying around (even if it is a DRG)

But I would have to vouch for the Samurai sub if his/her abilities were used with a conservative last resort sort of approach. If say, the proverbial shit hits the fan, said drg/sam would have (ideally) two or more pentas, high jump, jump, those wyvern breath attacks, and a super jump to shed the phenominal amount of hate resulting from these abilities. ASSUMING you have saved these abilities for just such an occasion, this strategy effectively becomes your replacement for a traditional 2 hour ability (since the dragoon doesnt really ave one) and the cool down is the cool down of your super jump. I totally agree that the warrior's abilities are there for you all the time, and the party sees benefits because of this. There are only two things you could do to distinguish the "better" sub of the two.

A. Use either for the appropriate situation

B. aesthetic value (whats cooler?)

There are really pros and cons to both, and it ultimately comes down to the competence of your PT.

[Darkani]

Im gonna level up SAM, want to try it out and I think it should be useful when soloing. Am I right?

[Sanguine]

No

[TokeN]

Soloing is not what this game is about, why does everyone wanna go that route :rolleyes: .

except if ur a BST...

[Feday]

do a mage if you wanna solo... soloing is all about the healing breath.

War and Sam are both good grouping subs from what ive read. It would do you good to have them both fully lvld after 60 and switch out for whatever the PT needs most.

[contagiondc]

LOL I had to reply to this thread because Sanguine's in my LS on Pandemonium server.

My two cents worth is this:

Penta-Spam isn't Penta-SPAM vs IT mobs. Given I'm an Elvaan, I still have 2 Sniper's Rings, Life Belt, Assault Earring, Coral Gorget, full AF, Emporer's Hairpin, Grand Knight's Lance, etc. I've got all those + Accuracy items, and even when there's a Bard in the party singing double madrigals... Penta-Spam isn't really Penta-spam with SAM sub. Three minute cooldown on each meditate, and the meditate only give you 60%.

The one useful thing I do get from SAM sub is this:

I get to set up a lot more skillchains for a Ranger, Dark Knight, or Thief to finish. See, in order to skillchain with a DRK for instance, you need to use Vorpal Thrust, which gives you only 13% or so TP return, and that automatically puts you behind the DRK's 4 hitter TP return of 40+%. So basically, meditate helps you play catch up with your skillchain partner.

I'm not saying this is true of all IT mobs either, crawlers seem to take a lot of hits, whereas the damn Perytons in Valley of Sorrow seem to evade like they're on crack.

SAM sub reflects the essence of Samurai: the ability to [ set up ] skill chains. Samurai, on his own, isn't very powerful in terms of damage dealing (in comparison to other classes that is). It's the ability to add 50-80% of a powerful weaponskill damage (for example, by setting up a Ranger to Sidewinder finish a skillchain). that makes the Samurai powerful useful. The same goes for meditate in the support job position. A Dragoon therefore becomes more capable of chaining with the party. If you think you're just gonna spam weaponskills, you're sorely mistaken unless you're in a VT chaining party, which is fun in its own respect, and should allow for a DRG/SAM who wants to go crazy.

But, yes, if you're partying for 200+ EXP IT kills, then the added DEX, Berserk, and Double Attack from the Warrior support job will go much, much further than a 60% TP add every 3 minutes.

Tanthalas
Once a Dragoon... now gone astray to other jobs because having to earn more than 30,000 EXP per level sucks ass.

[Sanguine]

Once a Dragoon... now gone astray to other jobs because having to earn more than 30,000 EXP per level sucks ass.

Naw, 30000 exp is ok. It's having to get 30000+ exp per level *and* being one of the least desired jobs in the game that makes it rough.

I recently switched to playing a Bard. The game experience is totally different and I'm having fun again. How's the summoner? =P

[Potsnu]

I don't know about you guys....but as Drg/War, I am able to use Pentathrust right after Initial Fuidama and STILL outpace my Thf's TP before he is ready for Skewer --> Dancing Edge Fuidama. I don't see the issue of trying to "catch up" to other melees for skillchains. In fact, by the time my Thf is rdy for Dancing Edge Fuidama, I am doing a 160% skewer. This is on IT's and I'm Elvaan. Of course, the game will change at 65, so I will have to see since I will be using Wheeling Thrust instead for renkeis. Imo, War sub is the most viable option up until 65+, and not 60+.

Also, I think the biggest lost of all from using Sam sub is the lack of ability to set up Fuidama. Let's face it, a Good exp PT will consist of: Whm, Rdm, Blm, Pld, Thf, and yourself. If you go Sam sub, you're relying solely on WS to turn the mob, and hope the Pld didn't build too much intial agro for you to turn it. If I can't set up Fuidama, not even Flash + Shield Bash + Cures can take it off me. The way I work with Thf it's almost flawless. I use Defender, do 1st Provoke for fuidama, click off Defender, use Berserk, use Penta Thrust, Jump, High Jump, and than I'm waiting for Thf to get rdy for Dancing Edge and for his Fuidama to be rdy for skillchain. More than enough time to "catch up" to my Thf. More like the Thf trying to "catch up" to me.

Contagiondc, sadly I have never been in a situation where I actually had to use Vorpal Thrust for Drk. As a matter of fact, I have NEVER grouped with a Drk for 1 very obvious reason. Drg's and Drk fit in the same melee category, therefore, unless you're in a sub par group, I won't be in the same PT as a Drk ^^

[Weezingpipes]

Actually if you look at any skillchain chart, Scythes have significantly better versatility compared to Polearms, they aren't in the same category. Rangers and Dragoons are basically in the same category skillchain wise, which makes them poor in parties together since about all you can do is Transfixion/Compression chains. Whereas a DRG can basically do those 2 and Distortion reliably, a DRK can do Scission, Liquefaction, Distortion, Detonation, Induration, Fragmentation, Impaction....see where this is going? DRG can do Impaction too of course, but only with very low damage WS which results in poor chain damage anyway. Not even close to being in the same damage slot. DRK > you.

[Potsnu]

same melee category

Do people even read? What does this mean exactly? A damage melee class. What fits in this category? Mnk, Rng, Drk, Drg, Sam. Does this imply their Skillchains are equal? No. I wasn't talking about their role in Renkeis. I was talking about their role as a Job. Like I said before. A good PT will consist of: Whm, Blm, Rdm/Brd, Thf, Pld, Damage melee class if they want 3-4k Exp/hour. Since I am a damage melee class.....I will not be in the same PT as a Drk, unless I replace Thf with a Drk/Thf at 60+. Again to reiterate since you seem to have trouble comprehending and reading, I am NOT Equal as a Drk in terms of damage output, nor am I equal in terms of Renkei versatibility. I don't even know what you're talking about. No where in my post did I imply such.

Reading > you.

[sonova]

i do gravitation and lead up to a detonation (or some other air based renkei i forget =P ) all the time?
i have no idea what the hell you are talking about........

and never you mind that penta thrust is kind of abusive not because of its damage or chainability , but because you end up with potentially 60% or more TP at the end?

anyway what kind of moron will pick DRK over DRG solely based on the chainability of their WSes?

you pick DRK and DRG to do damage. full stop. so in that sense DRK and DRG inhabit the same party slot.

[Potsnu]

Exactly, I never do Transfixion/Compression unless I'm with a Rng. 95% of the time I'm with a Thf. So I'm doing either Detonation/Gravitation with Dancing Edge, or Distortion with Skewer. Since I'm fighting Toramas at the moment, I favour the former. Drg's are fine in terms of chainability with WS. Even at lower levels, you'll be doing Double Thrust --> Viper Bite for Distortion. Since I make all my PT's and Drk fit the same role as me, I have never nor will I in the future be able to group with a Drk unless I want 1.5k to 2k exp/hour. As you reach 65+, a plethora of MB options become available.

[Serif]

Originally posted by Potsnu
same melee category

Do people even read? What does this mean exactly? A damage melee class. What fits in this category? Mnk, Rng, Drk, Drg, Sam. Does this imply their Skillchains are equal? No. I wasn't talking about their role in Renkeis. I was talking about their role as a Job. Like I said before. A good PT will consist of: Whm, Blm, Rdm/Brd, Thf, Pld, Damage melee class if they want 3-4k Exp/hour. Since I am a damage melee class.....I will not be in the same PT as a Drk, unless I replace Thf with a Drk/Thf at 60+. Again to reiterate since you seem to have trouble comprehending and reading, I am NOT Equal as a Drk in terms of damage output, nor am I equal in terms of Renkei versatibility. I don't even know what you're talking about. No where in my post did I imply such.

Reading > you.

Just pointing out something, isn't it at higher levels, the WHM is optional instead of the RDM. I talked to 2 JP people who live in USA now who has atleast 2-3 Level 75 characters each. They say that RDM + BRD + BLM Combo is easily enough MP to heal the PT. Can anyone at high level 70+ relay if this is true or not? I mean come on, RDM=Refresh,Convert BRD=Mages Ballad I+II, and BLM having WHM subbed.

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by Serif
They say that RDM + BRD + BLM Combo is easily enough MP to heal the PT.
Enough? Yes. Ideal? Perhaps ... until the party gets a link and someone dies, and then you're stuck Raise1 instead of Raise2/3.

Besides, I can't speak for all rdm's, but I dislike being the main healer in a party. If I wanted to do that I'd go whm instead of rdm.

[Potsnu]

Serif, you are correct. At higher levels, Whm is optional and can be replaced by Rdm. However, if you read what I said carefully, the setup I indicated is the Ideal/Good PT setup necessary to obtain 3-4k exp/hour. Furthermore, at higher levels, you often need to keep Sneak/Invis on the whole PT and travel across 2-3 zones to reach your exp destination. Simply put, Shit happens, especially when Sneak/Invis is placed on a random timer. Getting 25% back vs. 75%/95% is the difference between 1 Kill and 2 hours worth of exp ^^

Sigh, people never read the whole post before they reply =/ Ironically, I even stated that in my reply. I agree with Deodorant, not all Rdm's want to play full time healer. That is not their role. They are support healers and their main role is Debuffing/Enfeeblement.

[Serif]

Originally posted by Potsnu
Serif, you are correct. At higher levels, Whm is optional and can be replaced by Rdm. However, if you read what I said carefully, the setup I indicated is the Ideal/Good PT setup necessary to obtain 3-4k exp/hour. Furthermore, at higher levels, you often need to keep Sneak/Invis on the whole PT and travel across 2-3 zones to reach your exp destination. Simply put, Shit happens, especially when Sneak/Invis is placed on a random timer. Getting 25% back vs. 75%/95% is the difference between 1 Kill and 2 hours worth of exp ^^

Sigh, people never read the whole post before they reply =/ Ironically, I even stated that in my reply. I agree with Deodorant, not all Rdm's want to play full time healer. That is not their role. They are support healers and their main role is Debuffing/Enfeeblement.

I wasn't saying you were wrong, I completely understand the roles of the WHM and RDM at higher levels. I read everything. I was just really bored at college and just decided to reply to you, and I guess this is how it came out. :(