Thief/??? - Maximum Damage Potential

[Blackguard]

I've been toying around with various subjobs and it seems as if I am too low of a level to really get a good idea about this...

What sub-job will provide maximum damage potential in the end game?

I'm currently a level 35 Thief/Ninja, and I definitely hit pretty hard, but I don't know if this will be the best combo in the end.

Some combos I've looked at, taking into consideration level 75 Thief and 37 Sub-Job:

Thief/Ninja
- Great DEX/AGI
- Two weapons means multiple elemental damages or bonuses (to attack/accuracy)
- Triple attack means 6 attacks in one combat round
- Can exploit elemental weaknesses with ninja tools for maximum renkei damage
-- Example: I currently use Huton: Ichi before a WS->Sneak+Trick+Viper Bite and do ~435 initial damage with a ~300 Distortion (improvement of an avg of 50 over non Ice weakened creatures).

Thief/Samurai
- Extra TP on daggers makes a decent amount of difference
- Meditate at Samurai level 30 stores 100% TP in ~10 seconds, meaning you can Yokodama every single fight at least once, probably twice (Meditate works outside of battle, so you can yokodama immediately).

Thief/Warrior
- Lots of STR means more damage on standard attacks
- Double Attack at 25
- Attack Bonus at 30
- Berserk = Increased Attack (5m reset, 3m duration)
- War Cry = Increased Attack PT (5m reset, 30sec duration)

Thief/Dark Knight
- A combo I've never seen...
- Last Resort = Attack increase (5m reset, 30sec duration)
- Souleater = Consume HP to enhance attacks (6/1, don't know how good this is)
- Attack Bonus level 10
- Attack Bonus level 30

So in conclusion, what is the best Thief/sub-job combination for maximum damage output without consideration of anything else (like def, hps, evasion, etc)... just straight up massive damage?

[Omecle]

Maybe you could try Monk?

[leii]

What sub-job will provide maximum damage potential in the end game?

[ninjas, warriors, ranger, dark knight and samurai are pretty good]


Thief/Ninja
- Triple attack means 6 attacks in one combat round

[wrong. triple attack only works on ur main hand. so u still only hit 3 times.]

- Can exploit elemental weaknesses with ninja tools for maximum renkei damage
-- Example: I currently use Huton: Ichi before a WS->Sneak+Trick+Viper Bite and do ~435 initial damage with a ~300 Distortion (improvement of an avg of 50 over non Ice weakened creatures).

[yes. but it would be weak. since its level 1 ninjitsu]

Thief/Samurai
- Extra TP on daggers makes a decent amount of difference
- Meditate at Samurai level 30 stores 100% TP in ~10 seconds, meaning you can Yokodama every single fight at least once, probably twice (Meditate works outside of battle, so you can yokodama immediately).

[true. but a ninja as a sub using fast daggers would get tp just as fast. (maybe faster. i am not sure yet how much the delay is lowered in dual wield II)]

Thief/Warrior
- Lots of STR means more damage on standard attacks
- Double Attack at 25
- Attack Bonus at 30
- Berserk = Increased Attack (5m reset, 3m duration)
- War Cry = Increased Attack PT (5m reset, 30sec duration)

[yeah a standard subjob]

Thief/Dark Knight
- A combo I've never seen...
- Last Resort = Attack increase (5m reset, 30sec duration)
- Souleater = Consume HP to enhance attacks (6/1, don't know how good this is)
- Attack Bonus level 10
- Attack Bonus level 30

[and i thought about being a thief/drk. but i plan to be a thf/nin]

So in conclusion, what is the best Thief/sub-job combination for maximum damage output without consideration of anything else (like def, hps, evasion, etc)... just straight up massive damage?

[i think ninjas, dark knights and warriors would do the most.
ninjas because of dual wield (u hit more)
dark knights because of last resort, soul eater and attack ups.
warrior because of double attack, attack up and beserk.
so technically these 3 do the most damage.]

but if u really want to do damage be a ninja/dark knight.
reasons:
ur dual wield time would be only ur original delay time. u have a 40 damage katana at like level 72. with it u would hit 4 times before a sycthe wielding dark knight would hit once. u dont 160 damage and he does 90 something. (i forgot how much damage the strongest scythe was) and also u get soul eater, attack ups and last resort. and if i am not wrong a 5 hit weapon skill came out for a katana.
so imo ninja/dark knight would do the most dmg

[John Doe III]

Uhhh...monk is a worthless sub.

[Ripersnifle]

Monk is not a worthless subjob. Any subjob you pick will at least give you some extra HP and attribute points. When you dismiss something as worthless without any support you come off as childish, as well as being extremely unconvincing due to your lack of support.


True or not, when you throw out a statement as sweeping as that, you have to have something to back it up.

;)

[miffycat]

Yo zandria.. its me miffy^^ how's it going?

I am just going to say something abt thf/mnk since you guys think it is terrible.

Firstly i admit i ahve not seen a thf sub mnk after lvl....hmm let me see..... 20? But does it mean tat sub mnk is bad... no of cos not.

There are 2 places tat are good for lvling up at high and mid lvl, gustav and ranperre tomb. If a thf is to kill skeletons in these 2 places, the damage done by dagger is going to be so weak.
So usually, the party will prefer thfs to use h2h in these 2 areas.

For a high lvl thf, using h2h means you are stuck with only 1 decent ws, 3 hit ws Combo which is good but not tat great. However, if a thf sub mnk at high lvl, the thf would have Raging fist plus the thf gets h2h delay bonuses.

Thus in this aspect, it would be better for the thf to actually sub mnk.

[Anya]

Monk sub is only situational past around 25, as are the use of claws, for the most part.

[John Doe III]

Originally posted by Ripersnifle
Monk is not a worthless subjob. Any subjob you pick will at least give you some extra HP and attribute points. When you dismiss something as worthless without any support you come off as childish, as well as being extremely unconvincing due to your lack of support.


True or not, when you throw out a statement as sweeping as that, you have to have something to back it up.

;)

Ummm... :P Yes it is.. *laughs*

Originally posted by miffycat
Yo zandria.. its me miffy^^ how's it going?

I am just going to say something abt thf/mnk since you guys think it is terrible.

Firstly i admit i ahve not seen a thf sub mnk after lvl....hmm let me see..... 20? But does it mean tat sub mnk is bad... no of cos not.

There are 2 places tat are good for lvling up at high and mid lvl, gustav and ranperre tomb. If a thf is to kill skeletons in these 2 places, the damage done by dagger is going to be so weak.
So usually, the party will prefer thfs to use h2h in these 2 areas.

For a high lvl thf, using h2h means you are stuck with only 1 decent ws, 3 hit ws Combo which is good but not tat great. However, if a thf sub mnk at high lvl, the thf would have Raging fist plus the thf gets h2h delay bonuses.

Thus in this aspect, it would be better for the thf to actually sub mnk.

Sup my dawg Miffy^^;

Anywho, I still dont think MNK is a great sub..I think it's passive abilities would be worthless to a thf and wouldn't help. But that's just what I think.

[Ripersnifle]

Now you see, martial arts probably wouldn't help (though thieves can use hand-to-hand weapons if they want) and I agree there for the most part.

But how about the other passives?

Counter- who can say no to that? Turning an enemy attack to one of yours is something that I think would be useful for any job that gets melee duty.

HP Boost- Once again, not useless in my book. I rarely hear people complain about how useless extra HP's are.

The actives are all good. :)

It might not be the most powerful comination, but I think that it's workable and it offers some interesting abilities.

[Anya]

Any THF who swears by counter is not a THF I want to PT with. ^^

[Sinzer]

I have used MNK to 30 as it means I can switch between sword and H2H. WAR till 30 doesn't offer much more than MNK and the HP bonus was useful.

Counter is fairly lame, if I drew hate I might counter maybe once a fight, not worth it.

Benefits of MNK is really the lower delay on grapples and the extra HP. That extra HP has saved me lots of times because of a little bomb that goblins like to throw :p

Provoke is useless on a THF most of the time unless you are fighting stuff that is only just tough to you. It can be used occasionally to draw a mob off and then use perfect dodge.

Past 30 I wouldn't recommend MNK.

[Blackguard]

Past 30 monk really is a useless sub-job to thief. While they add some dex, you can do better...

Hand-to-hand isn't even an option in standard combat past level 33, when you can get the Viper Bite dagger skill.

HPs are trivial to a thief. You shouldn't be getting attacked very often. Same with counter -- if you are being attacked often enough that counter helps you out, you need to find a new party.

I subbed Monk up to 30, only because h2h does better damage than most anything til then (I switched between h2h and sword til 30, then dagger at 33 [though if you're smart, you should keep a dagger with you at all levels and keep it near max]).

After talking to a bunch of high level thieves on my server, they seem to all conclude that ninja as a sub-job has the best damage output, so that's what I'm sticking with.

[Wish420]

Miff said it best, Mnk sub is situational.
At times it is useful >> IF << and only >> IF << the pt
setup is ideal for a combo/ragingfist to end ws's..otherwise mnk sub for thf is pure garbage. Only in this situation is it worthwhile(So ya this is why John Doe said it 2nd best, its good in this 1 situation=P). Like someone stated earlier, h2h = E weapon for thieves, meaning ure atk will be shit compared to Dagger (A weapon) Sword (B weapon)

As to which sub is best as far as dmg potential for thieves...I would have to say it kinda ping pongs around.

Thf/nin definitely outdamages samurai sub pre-60, given dual wield = more dot, higher dex/agi = a decent sneak/trick dmg increase over sam sub, at 55thf u gain access to triple atk, which further enhances the thf/nin combo dot abilities.

But when ure talking end-game thf...theres this pretty nice weaponskill called => Dancing Edge...this skill changes the scope of your thf entirely, even moreso then viper's bite i shit u not^^
Post-60, Thf/Sam gains access to TP Store 2 and Meditate, with dagger I gain 12% per hit...with meditate u are able to pump out more sneak/trick + dancing edge stacks which means 1-2 ws's per mob minimum...this is the reason why 90% of experienced jpn players say that samurai is THE sub post 60...but why so many thf's with nin subbed? nin is jus damn pimp, and when u dualwield daggers and fight a mob with slow atk...on a successful triple u hit that slut 6x in a row...looks damn cool^^ I have both jobs able to be subbed since sam and nin are bother relatively quick and painless to get to 30, hope this helps or at the least confuses few,-)

[Wish420]

PS- I tested the water out when i was trying to choose between the 2 as well but every jpn pt I asked "Which sub, nin or sam" post 60, not 1 pt has asked me to bring nin over sam..

another reason for this may also be the fact that if all your melee dmg dealers sub sam = massive renkei + magicburst

[peregrine]

I can't remember the exact numbers, and the site seems broken at the moment (or was last I checked...)

But thf/nin vs thf/war at 70/35 resulted in a _one_ dex/agi difference. Yes, the 'good dex' sub only provided 1 more dex and agi than warrior did.

Take that for what you will. Those numbers could very well have been off, as well.

Personally I think warrior has the best setup to deliver the 'hardest single hit' but samurai might be more damage over time. I think ninja's more for the utility than the damage output, honestly, I'm not sure the +stats from the extra sword will outweigh being able to berserk and warcry, but I can't exactly test so it's just hypothesis for the time being~

I'm debating leveling ninja at all, honestly, as warrior seems to do a better job assisting me in what the party wants me to do -- deal damage.

[SergeG]

NiN is only good for 1 thing....


The +7 DeX. , Rare Sword you can equip in your off hand. Thus giving you highest possible DEX.

[Blackguard]

I've talked to a lot of people about this now, and almost all of the high levels say that Ninja is the best damage. Why? Well, dual wielding weapons isn't as slow after you are high level for one. You can equip two really nice weapons that enhance your stats or have hefty elemental damage on them. If you reduce a creature's resistance to the renkei element/s, it does even more damage...

Also, they say that with Ninja you pretty much always have 100% TP by the time you are able to Sneak/Trick, so there is no point in being a Samurai (because using a weaponskill without SA/TA is stupid for a Thief).

And yeah, for a single hit warrior is supposed to be pretty good (Berserk/Warcry + the one attack bonus). But you don't get the uberness of 6 attacks when you triple attack with two weapons on (this has been confirmed from multiple sources that you do attack 6 times rather than 3 with your primary).

[peregrine]

I'm not exactly sure how/if they stack assuming both fire at the same time, but thf/war ends up with double and triple attack, so the 'odds' of one or the other firing are pretty high on any given swing.

Unsure exactly what happens with both though.

I could have sworn triple attack was checked individually per hand, so you could either do 2 hits (normal), 4, or 6, but I donno from first hand experience yet~

[Blindside]

Thf/Drk

This has to be one of the least seen but most powerful combo for thf... imho

the attack up means you will do more damage in addition to the str.... only downside is the dex boost isn't as much as the other classes

But if you Last Resort+ Souleater + Sneak + Trick + Viper.... omg you would do SOOOO much damage it would be insane...

Plus the classes compliment each other so well...

Drk/Thf
Thf/Drk

both are viable... both have similar jobs to just deal raw damage

[John Doe III]

Originally posted by Blindside
But if you Last Resort+ Souleater + Sneak + Trick + Viper.... omg you would do SOOOO much damage it would be insane...

You would kill yourself...

Originally posted by Blackguard
Also, they say that with Ninja you pretty much always have 100% TP by the time you are able to Sneak/Trick, so there is no point in being a Samurai (because using a weaponskill without SA/TA is stupid for a Thief).

btw if you think Sam is a worthless sub your stupid.

[Alyandah]

Originally posted by John Doe III

You would kill yourself...


Actually.... you would kill the poor, helpless person who is standing infront of you.

Anyway, Ive heard that Triple Attack can trigger when using WS like Dancing Edge? Is that true? If so, how many hits? >_>

[riceburner4540]

john doe is right, you would kill yourself...unless you properly trick it onto someone else :biggrin: THEN you would die once "the poor, helpless person who is standing in front of you" dies and the monster targets the rest of the group. those self-buffs lower your defense so much, i'd imagine a thief with already low defense would get one-shotted easily if the mob somehow survives it or if you miss your trick in the first place

[John Doe III]

Originally posted by Alyandah


Actually.... you would kill the poor, helpless person who is standing infront of you.


Actuallllyyyyyyy you can do fui on yourself if you didn't know already. I did it once on myself on Genkai one and died (hound NM)..and twice during PT's shortly after.

[Alyandah]

@@ how do you trick on yourself?

[peregrine]

Fui on yourself? I... can't honestly say how I can stand infront of myself in order to fui on myself. Involves secondary targetting and locking yourself or something? Do tell.

[John Doe III]

I'll tell later when I have more time but if you want you can as MAK (Jingo), as for the first fui though it was in the genkai PT with about 16 members and I dont really see how I did it on myself..but I did..becuase the guy in front of me guy down to red life as well as me...

[ClydeArrowny]

you cant fuidama yourself but you can fuiuchi without dama which would give you a bit of hate....btw...as for the darkness+fuidama+last resort+dancing edge...youd do like 3000-5000 dmg or so to yourself (3000-5000/3= about 1000-1600 dmg to enemy) killing yourself and giving the dama'd person a ton of hate....using darkness as drk sub drains 3 hp per 1 dmg as i hear....even if it was a 1:1 ratio youd do like 1000-1600 dancing thus killing yourself anyway....

[Saurian]

souleater takes away 10% of your current HP, and coverts it to dmg. It is not possible to killyourself using it, barring getting attacked by the mob.

So you have 1000hp, you do darkness , first hit takes away 100hp, and adds 90dmg to your attack. Second hit takes away 90hp, and adds 90dmg to your attack.

The worst you could do is be left with 1 hp.