How long before EN parties realise the benefits of THF?

[Sinzer]

I see a lot of arguments about damage output of THF, yet it seems that THF are very undervalued by the EN population. I play in the UK and often am around during JP times. I get picked up all the time by JP parties, yet very rarely by EN parties.

It seems the biggest reason why EN seem reluctant is because they do not understand how THF works! To me a THF's bread and butter is based on renkei, JP parties are great because the Renkei is always the first thing discussed.

EN parties always say bah Renkei is not that good, you don't really see much damage till high levels. Well even at level 20/21 when I finish on a sneak/combo+fusion I usually do 110 combo damage followed by 80-90 fusion damage. This is on ITs!

I don't see any other melee output that type of damage, yes it may be a one hit, but you find that everyone is missing wildly when they fight ITs. Without that one hit it is likely to take around 3 times longer to take a mob down.

So how long do you fellow THF's think it will take before EN people realise how to party and what we do?

My bet is that it is gonna take a good few more levels!

[Cri]

Its never going to happen, i switched my job to ranger since the patch. I mean later on people would want u for yokodama and treasurefinder. But without that thiefs are casted out of the best party. Thiefs were used as hate placement. Without that, they have even worse chances of getting parties. I hate to say it, but thiefs arnt a really good job except for gil farming and treasure/nm/fudiama/chest hunters.

[Nameless]

They won't. I still like THF, but most people see me as a hassle when I ask them to not run around or something so I can do sneak. And they don't even think it is good.

I hardly get into renekis, one because the party doesn't know how, or two because the party doesn't want me to (I have grapples dagger and sword capped, but I like to use dagger the most and nothing connects with dagger ; ; ) They are fun though, to see awesome power.

[Xeross]

This has been my experience with Qufim so far.

Set to seeking. Wait 30 seconds. Get invite. Group for a while and do massive damage following one other cooperative member with renkei. Get good exp

next day. Set to seeking. Make it out of tunnel, see a group hanging around, get invite, ok group, one person too high(lvl 20-21's and one 23).

Next day to right now. Set to seeking, one minute later get invite. The group I'm in right now(i'm typing on my laptop) is the best group I've ever had. I'm the puller, we have our War and Drk chaining and the blm casting blizzard off that chain. Then me and the other thf are chaining Burning -> Fast, i'm doing fast since i'm a mithra and 1 level higher(fast + sneak). Because of this we can split two powerful chains over two enemies, and get realllly good exp. Its just rocking.

I dunno what it is, but I think people are realising just how good thfs are on this server. When I did 216 damage on my fast + sneak mix everyone kinda dropped their jaw.

[Kafeen]

I've never really had much of a problem. I was in a party last night with a Paladin, Dark Night, Summoner, Bard, Warrior and 2 White Mages (not all at the same time, the SUM and BRD came after the WAR and a WHN left). I didn't even ask to join them, they just invited my on my way to running to town. We were racking up some nice exp. 220, 200, 170. I don't think it went below 100 and we were finishing almost every fight very close to full HP (thanks to the WHM and SUM who had a WHM sub).

If you can't find a party, make one. Use the serach function to see who's looking for a party and invite them. Its pretty easy to make a decent party although mages can be hard to find.

[Poopo]

I'll second Xeross, I believe that in Qufim , the value of THF is much higher since by then we have snk attack and people there usually have PTed with THF's enough to know that we are DAMAGE !

[GSDragoon]

I dunno what it is, but I think people are realising just how good thfs are on this server. When I did 216 damage on my fast + sneak mix everyone kinda dropped their jaw.

Lol, same here. The have no idea how good THF's are untill they party with them and see the massive dmg we do.

[Junun]

I really didnt have much problem with my thief until level 35. Then I was repeatedly watching a LS friend(dragoon) get groups over me. Keep in mind, I was also one of the only NA players that could do yokodama(pre patch). After 2 days of no groups I rerolled and leveled up my bard.

Also on my thief, I had trouble getting into JP groups after level 30+. Thief requires a fair bit of communication in a party in order to set up proper fuidama/yokodama. Now its going to be even harder to setup a proper trick attack when there is the language barrier.

My bard is now 31, so time to test the waters with grouping. So far grouping has been good. 1-31 in less then a week :)

[Nameless]

Originally posted by Xeross
This has been my experience with Qufim so far.

Set to seeking. Wait 30 seconds. Get invite. Group for a while and do massive damage following one other cooperative member with renkei. Get good exp

next day. Set to seeking. Make it out of tunnel, see a group hanging around, get invite, ok group, one person too high(lvl 20-21's and one 23).

Next day to right now. Set to seeking, one minute later get invite. The group I'm in right now(i'm typing on my laptop) is the best group I've ever had. I'm the puller, we have our War and Drk chaining and the blm casting blizzard off that chain. Then me and the other thf are chaining Burning -> Fast, i'm doing fast since i'm a mithra and 1 level higher(fast + sneak). Because of this we can split two powerful chains over two enemies, and get realllly good exp. Its just rocking.

I dunno what it is, but I think people are realising just how good thfs are on this server. When I did 216 damage on my fast + sneak mix everyone kinda dropped their jaw.

I've never waited less than a half an hour (I give up after that and ask) so I always ask for groups and I'm level 25.

Maybe it's because people want to look at your mithra ;)

[Juggy]

What makes me laugh is that you're stupid enough to think its only the english population that doesn't know how to use the Thief abilities... Typical of most europeans that have nothing but envy for America, you fail to understand that there are bad players in japan as well...

I have been in japanese groups that do not use the thief skill correctly either, or that have stated without yogo, the thief would not be worth it. Perhaps its time to get out of the Euro envy and step into reality.. Where bad players exist regardless of nationality.

[Kei]

Originally posted by Juggy
What makes me laugh is that you're stupid enough to think its only the english population that doesn't know how to use the Thief abilities... Typical of most europeans that have nothing but envy for America, you fail to understand that there are bad players in japan as well...

I have been in japanese groups that do not use the thief skill correctly either, or that have stated without yogo, the thief would not be worth it. Perhaps its time to get out of the Euro envy and step into reality.. Where bad players exist regardless of nationality.


Maybe you need to calm down?

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by GSDragoon
Lol, same here. The have no idea how good THF's are untill they party with them and see the massive dmg we do.

And later on you'll realize that thfs don't do that much damage after all. We have one attack that does a crapload of damage. Everything else is horrible. The only thing that sets us apart from the rest of the high attack low defense melee is the ability to pin the resulting hate onto somebody else. Without this ability I'd pick a drk, drk, sam or war over thf without blinking an eye.

[Xeross]

Originally posted by Nameless


I've never waited less than a half an hour (I give up after that and ask) so I always ask for groups and I'm level 25.

Maybe it's because people want to look at your mithra ;)

hey whatever floats their boat. A group is a group ^^

[GSDragoon]

And later on you'll realize that thfs don't do that much damage after all. We have one attack that does a crapload of damage. Everything else is horrible. The only thing that sets us apart from the rest of the high attack low defense melee is the ability to pin the resulting hate onto somebody else. Without this ability I'd pick a drk, drk, sam or war over thf without blinking an eye.

Too bad I won't get to use Trick Attack. I'm going DRG when I hit 30.

[Tokitoki]

People really dont understand the THF. People think they are just a weak WAR but at 33 they are almost a NESSECITY(sp?). The damage for Sneak + Trick + Viper and the ability to move the mob onto the main tank is priceless. These people whenever i say to get a THF say, "No they dont do enough damage and they cant tank." Well if youd listen to me about the Renkeis they would out damage you all the time!

[vudoodoodoo]

They need to realise that Trick Attck is the shizzles. :D

[Nameless]

Originally posted by Xeross


hey whatever floats their boat. A group is a group ^^

I can't help but laugh.

[Sinzer]

Hehe been off in Amsterdam for a few days!

Perhaps its time to get out of the Euro envy and step into reality..

It wasn't really envy, it was just my observations that I quite reguarly listen to EN players in groups saying how useless renkei is. Whenever I group with JP they use it all the time.

I am sure there are awful players in JP, however I have really yet to meet one and I group with lots of them.

It seems the poll is looking a little pessimistic :)

[Juggy]

You also have to understand that most American players have just started playing the game, where as the Japs have had over a year of game time with multiple information sites dedicated to the game.

Regardless of this fact, I frequently see Japanese groups using the thief the wrong way, where he just picks random party members to trick off of, or even worse, performs this manuever on random party members way too early.

I would just think twice before categorizing American players, as a great deal of them use the thief class more efficiently than the Japanese players. In fact, after the patch, I haven't seen a jap group that fully utilizes a thief's abilities yet. Of course, I would never be stupid enough to categorize japanese players as bad players, since I witness a very small percentage of japanese players.

[Roldarin]

My desirability varies. I think it has more to do with how many groups are hiring than anything else. I've been invited into groups which already has a party.

Most NA don't really know how to take advantage of a thief that well. Tanks don't always provoke early in the battle to give me a chance to get my sneak attack off before someone else gets agro and blows it. And when setting up a Renkei, even after explaining why I want to be the Fast Blade person (extra awesome Sneak Attacks) I end up on Red Lotus Blade duty. But that isn't to say these groups are all idiots. Just don't know how to take advantage of a thief that well.

I haven't been in many mostly JP groups. The one I remember the most was just amazing. They knew what weapon skills to ask for (in this case Combo) and to make sure I was going to do a decent skill chain (in this case Fusion) at the same time I did my sneak attack. I never had any issues finding the back of a monster. Most amazing group ever.

So my experiences have been mixed. I imagine as time goes on people will realize the value of thieves. Perhaps when more NA players get into their 30s with their first job and see what thieves are bringing to the table.

Roldarin

[Kerberos]

I had a lot of issues getting groups well into the mid-twenties. In general NA release players don't really have a grasp on the kind of damage sneak can do, especially when paired with a WS and in a SC. Around 23-24 parties I was in finally noticed what kind of damage I was doing with sneak and their jaws pretty much dropped when I did sneak+fast at the end of a chain. Of course being rather insanely well equipped for my level as a NA player probably helps in comparison to the often under-equipped, under-leveled sub, non-food using melees I find myself ending up with.

I'm sure that comparable level and equipment first tier melee probably beat me out in DPS overall, but its nice to feel appreciated rather than just a warm body to fill a pt spot since they can't find anyone else.

As for JP parties, I haven't had the opportunity. I have recieved invites on occassion but always when I'm about to log off or such... Alas, my FFXI experience is poorer for it I guess.

[leii]

i havent seen any japanese people playining b4. well i do but everytime i see a japanese player they have artifact armor. but english players really dont think highly of thieves. i played a whole hour b4 and wasnt invite :( so i decided to do the chocobo quest :thumbsup:

[bunta]

Off topic...

Was just partying with a level 30 THF, he was pulling Combo (trick + sneak attack) off Red Lotus Blade and he scored around 200 + 180 off IT. Amazing..i kind of laughed to myself after seeing that.

[Sinzer]

Add the Fusion ~130 damage and then the magic burst and you have one dead IT :)

I am starting to get more and more invites since getting past 25 :)

Shame I will be switching to BRD/RDM for a while once I get another 2500xp :p

THF will always be my true job :) I love it!

[PhoR]

there should be an option in this poll that says:

This poll is retarded.


jk. :)

[DarkHawk]

Heh heh

you guys think its bad in the 20's wait till the high 30's.

My sneak/trick/viperbite does 300+ damage to worker crawlers and pushes the chain effect up to 100+ damage. Thats my value to a pt. I just sat in jeuno for 7 hours today looking for a group and didnt get even 1 invite. The people i grouped with yesterday are 3 lvl's higher and im still sitting here 700 xp from 38. Id make my own group but there are no mages and so no one else will join the group. This sucks.

[Nameless]

Originally posted by PhoR
there should be an option in this poll that says:

This poll is retarded.


jk. :)

Go away.

and not a j/k :)

[Tokitoki]

recently, i have to say, that they are STARTING to understand, but dont know fully yet. I havent been lvling but when i go to Yhaotor now, i get an invite within 1 minute and dont even have seek up :sweat:. They realize that they need 2 tanks for me to pull this off and adjust accordingly, things are beginning to shape up.:thumbsup:

[sinfox]

i'm of the opinion that a theif isn't a very important part of a party...

.. i find that, yes - i can hit for 350 - 550 twice a fight (level 37) with fuidama.. and that yes, it can be pinned onto a tank.. but i think that the hate can usually quite happily be held on a tank without my aid, and that even without the smack of damage every minute or two the enemy's hp will go down all the same..

.. i just see the thief as an *optional extra* in the party.. replaceable by anyone who can deal sufficiant damage over time to make up for the fuidama hit.. and may even bring other useful abilities to the party..

that being said.. i adore being a theif ^^ .. i just have the view that we're not that valuable a component of a party.. no matter how nice powerful fuidama/renkei damage can be ^^

sin

[tomc1988t]

no problems getting theif into grp....really if i tried to level it up more(actually xpd w/o friends) i would have it to 30 by now XD....these goddamn noobs dont realize value of drk knight on odin tho ;) if you're theif..come on over

[GSDragoon]

OMG! I FINALLY got lv30. Made a macro with Sneak + Trick + FB. (no viper yet) My new high dmg was 429, including scission. We had 2 WAR's in the party, so it worked out nice. After seeing 400+ dmg, they all realized how power full a good THF can be. Have to thank the 2 good cooperating tanks too.

[Sinzer]

but i think that the hate can usually quite happily be held on a tank without my aid

Yes, that might be the case if you have a PLD, but if you have NIN/WAR or just a WAR/XXX they need all the help they can get.

Also, our sneak costs nothing, if we only renkei every other mob, then we speed up the killing no-end. The MB at the end of the renkei also relies on high damage, that is our job to get the renkei multipliers as high as possible.

I dunno, I think in some cases we are replaceable, in others we are not. DRG should be one of the highest damaging classes however put them in a situation with AOE damage effects, eg bomb tosses and their wyvern is shafted. Without Wyvern they are lame.

I agree on the DRK, I never see one in my group as no one will invite them, however as far as I am aware they are an awesome damage class?

[Duffman]

As a paladin I love having a thief in the PT. For the last 13 or so levels ive been partying with a group of people I met, A thief, monk, and a whitemage. So far i havent been in a Party that was killing as quick as this layout:

PLD, THF, MNK, THF, WHM, RDM.

The thiefs would time there fuidama right so they got 4 (2 each) right at the begining of the fight, after the last I would cast a few things to Pin the agro on me.

After that we would get a sneak/trick every 30 seconds which totally out killed the party next to us of similar level. With us killing that quick and along with refresh there was almost no downtime.

I love having a THF in the party, even 2 ^^

[Serif]

I am a Bard.

My favorite team right now is. Warrior or a Palladin, Dragoon, Dark, WHM, BRD, Thief.

Good balance with Renkei's and Thiefs do massive damage. It is very nice.

Especially on Mandragoras. 2 Fire SC. With Thief doing Sneak Attack on one of them. Kills them like that in da JUNGLE!

[GSDragoon]

Especially on Mandragoras. 2 Fire SC. With Thief doing Sneak Attack on one of them. Kills them like that in da JUNGLE!

THIS is how you kill Mandragoras in the jungle.

[MCfuzz]

I dont think thief is a very good choice as far as damage goes. Thieves are good subs(which is what i am going to use it for) because of their passive abilities(Gil finder, Treasure hunter, etc.), and steal is always nice. almost all of the thief abilities do not actually help their ability to fight. you get an evasion bonus, but you shouldnt be taking much damage anyway so it just saves the WHM a cure or two(for the same reason thf 2hour is also almost useless in combat). I haven't played a high level thief(im level 26) or anything so i dont know how much damage you do endgame, but i can not imagine that they get anything that makes them stonger than a monk, dark night, samurai, or any other of the non-tanking damage classes.


someone needs to make a parsing program so that everybody can get accurate info on how much DPS the different jobs actually do.

[GSDragoon]

So you don't think 180+ dmg every minute is good dmg? I think the problem is that it's hard to get the other meele players in position. You also need a good tank that can keep aggro. I was in a party yesterday with an awesome PLD. With him and a DRG, I was able to dish out the dmg, and they were very impressed. When the PLD left we got a WAR to replace him and the hate was out of control. I was only able to get Trick Attack to work a few times. Renki's were even more out of the question. IMO, a good THF NEEDS a good tank. They deserve the credit too.

[Mylek]

I would say about 15 levels and actually grouping with a good thief. You have to be braindead not to notice a monster losing a very large chunk of life from one attack.

[Thoronas]

The other night I had a party with two thieves in it and good lord did they rip the jungle up. I was the main tank and they would both time their sneak attacks right after I spammed provoke and were taking off anywhere from a quarter to half of the enemies damage. Lets just say its some of the best chain exp I've had in a long time.

I love me some thieves (especially if they're mithra :thumbsup: )

[John Doe III]

Originally posted by Thoronas
The other night I had a party with two thieves in it and good lord did they rip the jungle up. I was the main tank and they would both time their sneak attacks right after I spammed provoke and were taking off anywhere from a quarter to half of the enemies damage. Lets just say its some of the best chain exp I've had in a long time.

I love me some thieves (especially if they're mithra :thumbsup: )

Two thiefs are always nice regardless of anything else :P. Get a second tank and your set at higher levels.

[Sly]

I'd have to say I am very well loved in the crawlers nest when they do their defense boost and theres not a redmage in sight :biggrin:

The main problem I see is what everyone else has already stated; not everyone wants to put in the work to setup a good trick. A lot of times I just have to settle landing it off of the second provoker and hoping for the best. But its great when a paladin listens and agrees with my idea :)

As for the dark knight part of a post I read, i've seen some issues with them as well. They don't seem to get groups too often, but I think that might be because a lot of dark knights seem to have trouble playing their job. Most dark knights I team with in my server are still not too sure when to use souleater, etc. in order to save themselves. There was one drk that I partied with that was excellent. Dished out major damage and rarely gained aggro.