RDM meele damage

[MagicH4t]

Hello all!

Im a level 30war with 10 sam and 5 drk and to tell you the truth i cant decide what to be!!!!!!. I have been really consedirng paldin but i like to do damage!.

So my question is how is RDM damage wise i know its not like a drk but how good is it? I LOVE rdm swords shields and af armor. I LOVE the fact they can cast (Samurai cant cast :() i love the fact that they can find partys my only concern is how will they be in pvp i mean. Can a red mage one v one a drk???

[PhoR]

1) rdm dmg is great in low to mid levels, but very poor in the endgame compared to damage oriented classes such as DRK

2) pvp is not going to be pk.. meaning you're not going to be killing each other. They haven't really released much about it, but I assume it will be something like "see who's party or alliance can gain the most conquest points in an allotted amount of time" or something to that extent. So it will not matter what Job you are, so much as how balanced your party is. (if pvp was pk oriented, a pack of 6 rng/war would be utterly unstoppable, but it's not going to be pk)

stick with melee classes if you want to do lots of dmg. drk seems to be more your cup of tea.



ps.. the reason rdm are such good soloers in the endgame is because of all the status effecting and healing they can do. They can solo very well, BUT it will NOT be fast soloing in any right. They will just outlast their enemies.


hope that helps you out! ;)


have fun

[MagicH4t]

hehe id be drk but i hate teh slowness of the weapons and the fact that scythes werent used in real life combat (weird reason i know).

I like samurai but they seem to be weak still. i mean b/c of no multi hit ws. But i love how sam look.

I mean im not tlaking massive dmg per hit i just wana be able to 1v1 a drk or 1v1 a drg or 1v1 a sam and win.

I love RDM WAR PLD Shields/Swords. low delay and look bad ass *_*

I have a whm alt and its kool to be able to heal urself and i like casting black magic but i like attacking. so pewp is rdm meele less than a PLD?????

I mean if i can cast poison on something and just beat it wiht my sword till it dies id be pretty happy :spin:

I like big numbers on text box :X but sam cant get them only drk can so i dont really care that much.

In Ac2 I played a sorcerer but i always wished i was a defender because i could take hits lol..

[Discordian]

At level 35 the damage I do with a sword has been fairly good. The biggest thing is that I've noticed that whenever I upgrade my sword I really feel the difference. Maybe as a rule of thumb save up and buy every other sword that you can get. You can ussually make your money back anyways by selling the old one after you buy the new.

The problem is that in the initial stage of a new area since your sword skill is basicly a B rating compaired to warriors, paladins, and drk's, ect that have A- to A+ rating you won't be hitting the target very often and you won't get a lot of skillchains in. However if you wait 3 levels you should be able to participate as well.

The nice thing about this is that you can still cast the spells that the enemy is weakest against. Typicly Ice, Fire, and Thunder. If you ride a skillchain and burst then more the better since at level 35 or so you will be using level 1 attack spells while the blm uses level 2s for mroe damage. Still, 70 points of damage on a spell isn't to be sniffed at when the melees are doing 10-15.

[PhoR]

magicH4T, if you like playing SAM, then did you read up on the new patch changes? Because now the "charge TP" skill gives you 300 tp instead of 100 over 10 seconds.

also a few of their weapon skills have been bumped up in dmg, and also changed positions on the renkei chart to be more effective.

Surely now that the lvl cap has been extended, they've been given a multi hit WS, or will be given one soon.

Or as another suggestion, why not just stick with war? you could sub samurai, and be a weapon skilling machine at high levels. And with Great Ax's being upped in effectiveness for War in the last patch(?), what could be better?


about your comment "i just wana be able to 1v1 a drk or 1v1 a drg or 1v1 a sam and win" i'm not really sure what you mean by that, but from what i've pried out of dev's about pvp, you're not going to be killing each other. Instead it will be some sort of contest between parties. (who can get the most conquest points in a certain amount of time.. comes to mind as a possiblility)


hope that helps your decision! ;)

have fun

[MagicH4t]

Originally posted by PhoR
magicH4T, if you like playing SAM, then did you read up on the new patch changes? Because now the "charge TP" skill gives you 300 tp instead of 100 over 10 seconds.

also a few of their weapon skills have been bumped up in dmg, and also changed positions on the renkei chart to be more effective.

Surely now that the lvl cap has been extended, they've been given a multi hit WS, or will be given one soon.

Or as another suggestion, why not just stick with war? you could sub samurai, and be a weapon skilling machine at high levels. And with Great Ax's being upped in effectiveness for War in the last patch(?), what could be better?


about your comment "i just wana be able to 1v1 a drk or 1v1 a drg or 1v1 a sam and win" i'm not really sure what you mean by that, but from what i've pried out of dev's about pvp, you're not going to be killing each other. Instead it will be some sort of contest between parties. (who can get the most conquest points in a certain amount of time.. comes to mind as a possiblility)


hope that helps your decision! ;)

have fun

I like how sam looks but its rather boring right now point blank i want to cast spells and be ok at meele.

[Beener]

If you want some melee at low lvls and casting, go redmage.

If you want good melee and healing/support casting, try Paladin.

I think ninja has ninjutsu, which is like spells, but not MP based.

[MagicH4t]

HMM ninja are to expensive for my taste and there really just tanks to bland for me same with paladin.

I have war at level 30 would that help my rdm sword damage at all?

What i want to do is pull out my sword and fight stuff then in the middle of the fights cast my spells and stuff that do dmg what class does this?

[Macht]

If you are looking for a damage dealer that casts spells then I think you want DRK. With a mag class subbed it'll give you a decent boost in mp so you have a decent amount to casts spells with too.

[MagicH4t]

wat about rdm/war or drk/war which is betta for spells?

the strategy guide i have Bashed the shit out of rdm/war but it didnt have level 70 invovled :(

[Discordian]

If you want more attack then you shouldn't be looking at rdm/war. You want rdm/drk. That gives you more attack, however less defense.

rdm/drk is something I've been cooking in the back of my mind. You get drain and aspir at lower levels than blm but you do not get access to cool spells such as warp and stonega.

[Apple Pie]

I'm not sure which is better but here's what you get for combat abilities when you choose either WAR or DRK as your sub-job.

RDM/WAR
LV20: Defense Bonus I
LV30: Berserk
LV50: Defender
LV50: Double Attack
LV60: Attack Bonus I
LV62: Vorpal Blade (WS)
LV70: Warcry

RDM/DRK
LV20: Attack Bonus I
LV20: Drain
LV30: Last Resort
LV40: Aspir
LV60: Souleater
LV60: Attack Bonus II
LV62: Absorb MND
LV62: Vorpal Blade (WS)
LV66: Absorb CHR
LV70: Absorb VIT
LV74: Absorb AGI

I prefer RDM/DRK since choosing DRK as my sub will increase my MP a little and Souleater works cool with Stoneskin. I won't choose both for leveling in PT but I may try those when I go solo.

[TokeN]

errr... doesnt teh subjob only go up to level 37? Also if u wanna deal damage and do Melee thats pretty hard to decide. I would go with RDM/WAR but ur MP will be below average and u wont be good at meleeing either. DRKs only really have draining spells and later on RDMs lean over to just mages category. So i have no idea what a good choice would be. I would go paladin. Theres alot to keep you busy with that job though.

[Discordian]

The reason why he only went to level 74 is because absorb agi is a level 36 drk spell. Its something I've thought about. Just been too busy leveling my rdm to do anything. I wish my leveling group would slow down, then I could play with other jobs.

[Beener]

if you REALLY REALLY want to do great nukes and great melee damage, there's a secret job you could get that would work.

it's called GM. you have to complete the "Square-Enix Application" quest to get that job. i hear it's a toughy.

[Arli]

I see this question come up so often and I'm suprised people still ask it. While a RDM does have sword skill that is enhanced with the En-spells. You are not - I repeat- you are NOT a fighter, you are a MAGE. Trying to do so will be detrimental to your health and your PT. I really wish people would understand this, but I guess it's Square Enix's fault for making RDMs nothing more than WARs with spells at the lower levels. Regardless of Support Job and equipment, a RDM is a mediocre fighter at best at middle levels and should never, ever be considered a reliable source of melee damage in a team.

/rant off

While a RDM truly fits the role of a fighter mage at early levels quite well, once you pass level 25, you will take a *dramatic* shift in role. I really, really can't stress this enough and was kind of taken aback by it when I first came to the realization. The role of a RDM in a party is as support for melee as well as other mages (especially after level 41 when you can cast Refresh).

You really won't be engaging in melee after level 30 unless you're playing solo, and even then don't expect to do very much damage ( we got great staying power though). The gap between a true melee class and a RDM is incredibly vast. If you think SAM is weak, RDMs begin to hit like kittens on IT mobs at level 35+ (15-25 damage if you're lucky). I'm sure every experienced RDM on these forums can attest - our melee skills are innadequate for enemy engagement in a party... period. This is ok, because as we settle into our roles, you'll find its MUCH more entertaining and useful (IMO) to be debuff and assist champ. Your nukes, especially with BLM SJ are faaaaaaar more effective anyway.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the topic. I'm sure there are those who will disagree, but not recognizing the true role of a RDM is a quick way to never live up to the class' potential -and ultimately decrease your enjoyment of the job. You can mix and match how you feel, but at higher levels, people will be looking very closely at your job/subjob combo as well as expecting you to perform in a certain manner for your class. A RDM/WAR or a RDM/DRK will usually be frowned upon in a leveling party, and should only be used when you're solo and experimenting.

[Halorin]

I'm currently a level 31 Red Mage / Ninja, and I have two Centurion's Swords equipped. I'm not going to say my damage is the greatest, but I'm usually tied for the highest damage, if not a close 2nd. I don't think we're as bad as people say we are at melee, but I do get the feeling that after like the 40's our damage starts to dwindle. I say our damage at the 30's is enough to be noticeable, which is fine for me. I use melee after everything's been cast and I know the WHM doesn't need me to back them up fully.

[Icemage]

If your damage as a RDM31/NIN is "as high" as the true front-liners you're partying with, there is something seriously wrong with the people you are playing with. Any self-respecting DRK, RNG, DRG, SAM, or MNK should be doing twice as much damage as you are at that point.

While you might get some extra damage from /NIN for a few levels when you're at a prime weapon upgrade level like 30-31, you'll notice within a few more levels that the true damage-dealing jobs are going to race ahead of you in damage, and there isn't anything you can do to catch up as a RDM (and if you think you can, you're in for a very rude awakening when the thieves in your parties start using Viper Bite for 300+ damage at level 33).


Icemage

[Halorin]

Well, of course Rangers outdo me in damage. I was talking about melee classes. I haven't played with any DRKs, but I know they'd do more damage than me to. I guess my ultimate point was that my melee damage isn't weak enough to not warrant its use. And.. I wasn't talking about weapon skills. O.o

I'll just drop the whole issue. Yes! Red Mages suck at melee! Don't do it ever! If you do you should die! Just equip a two-handed wand and sit in the corner during fights. You're useless.

[Halorin]

Well, of course Rangers outdo me in damage. I was talking about melee classes. I haven't played with any DRKs, but I know they'd do more damage than me to. I guess my ultimate point was that my melee damage isn't weak enough to not warrant its use. And.. I wasn't talking about weapon skills. O.o

I'll just drop the whole issue. Yes! Red Mages suck at melee! Don't do it ever! If you do you should die! Just equip a two-handed wand and sit in the corner during fights. You're useless.

[Deodorant]

Sorry to say then but the melee classes you play with suck if they can't outdamage you by level 30+ :P

Anyway, nobody's saying rdm's are totally useless at melee. One of the best rdm's I've partied with at late 40's debuffs, nukes, refreshes, dispels and heals, all while attacking the monster with en-(whatever) on. fF course her melee damage really isn't anything to shout about (roughly on par with my normal attacks, I'd say), but you could also argue that every extra bit of damage helps.

[Jei]

later levels, the only attacker that use 1h sword is PLD. So don't bother compare your damage to other jobs. axe, lance, bows, guns, scythe, grapple, every single weapon other attackers will use, will outdamage 1h sword easily.

Just some side note, leveling does take tooooo long after 55 : P the 20,000 exp is a lot. I normally become tired after 3-4 hours of partying and prefer to stand back and cast. My lose my attack interests as soon as i cap my sword skill pretty much. Since casting is such a busy thing to keep it going...

[ajg126]

I 100% agree Jei im level 57 now and it take FOREVER to level. 20000 xp is ridiculous. When i die i lose more xp than it takes for some ppl in my LS to level. I'm alsmot afraid to make a party wthout whm for raise 2. What i hate most about these levels though is that all we fight are stupid crabs and crawlers and what not. Same junk i have been fighting forever. I need to get into delk's tower =/. Whats even worse though is that the accuracy of most melee's in my party is real bad so i have to play madrigalX2 which means no minuet and were attacking crabs for poor damage. I need to get into a party with a warrior =( shield break is to helpful against these crabs.

On the topic- yeah rdm's dont fight usually because their damage is minimal and they have too much stuff to do casting wise. See in later parties with a bard rdm usually replaces blm so they will be nuking on top of buffing debuffing and healing so they work with bard's thrennodies to cast. doesent leave much time for fighting. Also in order to do decent damage with a rdm you probably would have to sub some kind of melee job which will prolly mean you do not get a party invite. At least not from japanese players anyway( i havent partied with a USA player in like 10 lvls =/ everyone is level 50 or below) blm has an extremely helpful int boost as well as mp boost and whm has other good boosts which make the two subs much better than any melee sub. if you want fighting and casting job that is good at both then maybe find a different game? in terms of balance i dont think it would be fair to have a job good at everything......

[Jei]

hmm melee can't hit - -?
I really can't imagine playing melee jobs 50+ without lifebelt really. My old 62 THF have a very hard time hitting at all with out it. And I was a THF already...

leave alone rdm...

[Taskmage]

This is just a curiosity I thought of the other day. Do you think a red mage could be an effective tank if Convert was used mainly to supplement hps rather than mps?

Here's what I'm thinking. A level 70 taru rdm/war has 922 hps and 647 mps (no equip). If you wait until you get low on hps and use convert that gives you an effective hp reserve of a little under 1500 depending on how efficient you are and how close you cut it (922 + 647 = 1569). Compare this to a level 70 galka pld/war who has 1496 hps. Now granted, the difference in vit is huge (53 taru/75 galka) but as a rdm you have access to Stoneskin and Phalanx. I'm not sure how much better or worse that is. Another interesting thing is that both Regen and Refresh effectively add to your hp regeneration.

Of course, you'd get better mp to hp efficiency if you did your job the traditional way standing back and casting Cure instead of using Convert as essentially a Cure spell. I'm not really asking if this is a better way to play a rdm, just a possible way, like if the tank in your party had to log or something.

[Gman]

In my experience (which is limited to level 40) it's better that the RDM attack than not attack. We were fighting Nest Beetles in Crawlers near the end of Beta with a level 39-40 PT, and I was doing good damage. Not the DMG a DRG, SAM, DRK will do, but enough to help out (when I'm not healing, debuffing, etc...) I find with up to date weapons (I had Centurions Sword for it's +5 att) I will usually do between 15-25 damage BEFORE my enspells kick in. If I get the right element for that particular monster, then I increase my damage by 4-7, which gives me an attack of 19-32 per hit with a delay of only like 226, which means I'm hitting a monster 2 times in the time a DRK can attack once which is 38-64 DMG... how much is a level 40 DRK doing each attack? Maybe 70-80 at most? That's not bad considering I'm also healing my allies, etc..

Bottom line, RDM are mainly there for their magical abilities at later levels, but that doesn't mean they ~shouldn't~ fight, it means that fighting takes a back seat to the other duties.

[Jei]

no way task. RDM's surviving tools are our magics not our HP. I have 700HP right now and 1 hit from the enemies im fighting to level up i lose 100-150. converting reuse time is 10 minutes but if i use it to supply HP i'll only last 20 seconds the most.

plus, your cure4 uses 90MP for 350-380HP. it's even better to cure, then convert to get more MP back.

[Discordian]

Any melee damage is good melee damage. I always have my sword out and contribute to the damage flow. I don't need to start chaincasting spells every time. Doign that burns MP like flash paper and results in more resting. If I can get 100 damage out of attacks, great that was well worth it and I can use my remaining MP to top off the melee classes before they find something else to pull in. Having clear mind makes the difference at level 31+

Having now gotten to level 37 this weekend sword skill is taking the big dip down. It still works but not very well. I encourage rdm's to keep at it though. It doesn't do much but it adds up when you do it between spells.

[bonovoxpsu]

first post...

sorry jei, i really disagree with you. rdm's can melee. while not as good as everyone else (drk, drg, whatever), it is at least 80% of their damage, if not 100%. the key, the absolute key is enchanting your weapon to en-whatever. the other absolute must is we MUST hit them - missing kills because of the lack of bonus to enchant and our overall damage. so all u melee'ing rdm's jack up your accuracy and dex!

right now, hunting in qufim (lvl 25) i do hang damage wise with everyone else. the reason? our 1-hand sword swings about twice for their one swing. and enchants give me +7 per hit right now. simple as that.

will i be able to do the same in the future? maybe. maybe not. i wait and see - for now you are wrong. ;)

meanwhile i debuff, heal, nuke - its great. i can only imagine the lvl 41 move of BLINK-STONESKIN-REGEN-CONVERT-CURE2(maybe 3). yum.

[Echo]

I agree, Discordian. :)

RDM's damage does start sucking in the higher levels...

But... engaging offers a couple advantages:

1) Over the course of a battle you may get 100-200 points of damage in. 'Free' damage, just because you happened to click 'attack' and get a hit in here and there between spells.

2) You get a convenient 'lock on' to the monster, which lets you know "uhoh... he's not dropping.." or "okay, we have this easy". knowing how well a fight is going helps mana management.

3) If you're lucky, you may even get to use a weaponskill. Okay, so we don't get cool things like RLB unless subbing WAR or PLD... but... more 'free' damage.

The most important thing I've noticed since beta is Gravity was very much underrated in beta. It is very useful in driving down the monster's evasion: you'll actually be able to hit it! Maybe not often, but better than never. :)

[PhoR]

Well Jei realizes things that most do not.

getting in there for that extra 100 dmg may cost your party more than it helps. What about enemy's with AOE attacks? For instance Mandragora's and their AOE sleep. If you get in and fight. you get put to sleep with melee's. Whereas if you hang back, you can help whm to wake everyone up quickly. What happens if the aoe attack hits you for all but a small amount of hp? Then most people's instincts tell them to heal themselves, instead of healing the people that need it.

There are times when rdm SHOULD melee. And there are times when they should not. after lvl 30, most times involve the latter.

[bonovoxpsu]

very true very true.

i am not discounting the no melee rdm. but i'm hoping i still can above lvl 30.

again, i don't claim to know more then the resident rdm....

i'm just hoping there's hope. :P

[tonka]

+accuracy equipment means you don't have +caster equipment, which is doubly hurtful for a red mage because you have the lowest MP of all mages and you rely on MND and INT, not just one.

Considering that even offensively designed classes like Rangers and Dark Knights have real problems hitting without +accuracy equipment, a red mage will whiff even more.

I think i posted this earlier in this thread, but Red Mages do contribute in melee if you are chaining weaker mobs like a T or VT.

Let's flip the situation. A White Mage has BETTER SKILL in club than a Red Mage has in Sword. Would you be happy if your White Mage decided to spend time "in between heals" meleeing the mob?

Anything you can say about a Red Mage melee can be equally applied to White Mage.

[Jei]

well, I have lived through the 40,000 exp per level hell ;) my Rdm's attacking for 5-10 damage every 10 swing, is nothing compare to RNG's 200+ every single shots and 1400+ from sidewinder.

I melee to cap my skill. repeat, to cap my skill. Which is very helpful when I'm out soloing stuff on my own.

[bonovoxpsu]

well as a taru, i have boat loads of mp......

and my skills are high enough that my magic sticks on INC's... so i'm willing to jack up my dex/strength to stay as balanced as low level rdm's...

a different way to play. and i think i can make it work. its just a game after all...

[Tempest198]

sorry jei, i really disagree with you. rdm's can melee. while not as good as everyone else (drk, drg, whatever), it is at least 80% of their damage, if not 100%. the key, the absolute key is enchanting your weapon to en-whatever. the other absolute must is we MUST hit them - missing kills because of the lack of bonus to enchant and our overall damage. so all u melee'ing rdm's jack up your accuracy and dex!

I don't mean to be rude, but you're disagreeing with a person who has level'd a RDM to high level and is now leveling a second RDM to high level, while your experience is based on level 25 in Qufim.

Saying RDM deal 80-100% of a dmg dealer's damage is outright rediculous. I'm happy if over the whole period of combat my total damage is as much as like 3 hits from a real damage dealer.... Unless the mobs are only T or VT, I simply miss too much....

Yea I can get items to boost my melee powers, but my question is, why? I'd much rather get +MND, +INT and +MP items to make me far more useful. I have +14 MND right now, and it can still take several attempts to land Paralyze and Slow on IT's (stupid ants often have Shell II buffed :/).

What I find interesting about this whole discussion, and several others just like this I've seen (on this, and other messageboards), is that people simply won't believe the experienced RDM, who've been there and tried it, because based on their experience at lower levels meleeing works (this is not directed at bono or anyone else here, just an observation I made)....

Even before I started to play this game, I had accepted that RDM simply wouldn't melee very well at high level, because people who tried it told me it's not possible....

[Apple Pie]

Before LV41, yes, we may have enough time joining in forward players and meleeing while we cast necessary enfeebling spells and cures.

However, after you learn Refresh, I feel that we have no time for that. Suppose we have four people with MP (e.g., BLM, PLD, RDM, and WHM). We have do the following every 150 seconds.

Refresh [5 sec]
18 sec
Refresh [5 sec]
18 sec
Refresh [5 sec]
18 sec
Refresh [5 sec]

Total : 74 seconds occupied

One battle usually takes 60 to 90 seconds. So, do we still have time to melee? Well, no...

Unless we can constantly recover caster's MP, that will make more down time.

What is worse, after we learn Haste at LV48, we have one more routine... This will completely kill our time.

Total 100 damage doesn't sound bad at lower LV but imagine how much HP do they have around LV50. As Jei stated, our sword only does 5 - 10 damage and En- spells are mostly resisted when we fight with incredibly tough (totetote) dudes even though we choose the right element.

We are great fighters in solo, the second strongest (BST is the strongest, I think) ones. However, the amount of exp we earn is really up to our contributions as supporters.

[bonovoxpsu]

sigh... fine. consider me broken. you guys win i give up... :(

[Karinya]

Originally posted by Echo
I agree, Discordian. :)

RDM's damage does start sucking in the higher levels...

But... engaging offers a couple advantages:

1) Over the course of a battle you may get 100-200 points of damage in. 'Free' damage, just because you happened to click 'attack' and get a hit in here and there between spells.

2) You get a convenient 'lock on' to the monster, which lets you know "uhoh... he's not dropping.." or "okay, we have this easy". knowing how well a fight is going helps mana management.

3) If you're lucky, you may even get to use a weaponskill. Okay, so we don't get cool things like RLB unless subbing WAR or PLD... but... more 'free' damage.On the other hand you may get caught in AEs. Taru especially should probably stand back against goblins and other monsters that use AE a lot.

<--- But I'm not a taru :biggrin:The most important thing I've noticed since beta is Gravity was very much underrated in beta. It is very useful in driving down the monster's evasion: you'll actually be able to hit it! Maybe not often, but better than never. :) The other point people seem to be overlooking: EVERYONE'S damage sucks against IT crabs, not just the RDM. I do MORE damage than thf or pld, about on par with war, because I'm using enthunder which ignores the crab's physical defense, and because my small sword has low delay and +2 dex (and I'm a mithra).

Drk and mnk still outdamage me though. And I'm not counting sneak attack for the thf, which may be a bit unfair but a lot of thfs can't land it anymore. :eek:

Does Gravity really reduce evasion? I'll have to start casting it more often - I thought the only use for it was as the last spell you cast before everyone runs for the border.

I don't know what it's like at 40+. But a lot of players aren't 40+, and I don't want to see level 15-20 RDM (or other jobs!) thinking our job is worthless in melee at those levels. It isn't. At very high levels we may become worthless at melee, I don't know. But at levels up to at least the mid-20s, we aren't.

[bonovoxpsu]

/me applauds karinya!

:spin:

[Jei]

For your information. I used Rdm/War when i leveled my first Rdm, Jazaar. all the way from 1 to 27. And I simply found out it's not working. It worked very well from 1 to 20, but after 20, not only I can't participate in the skillchain which is the main killing damage for the party, I barely have any time to swing at all due to my casting. And actually I even slow down the party when they need to spend extra healing power on me when I got affected by any moves like group paralyse from batallia's tigers.

And my party experience, I can see why Rdm in NA parties can do decent damage. All NA parties I was in, only kill for 60-100exp a kill. giving me around 1,500 - 2,000 exp an hour the most. While there are some greater NA groups out there doing 200+ a kill, those are pretty rare and everytime i got invited into a random NA groups, they normally are the 1,000-1,500 exp per hour groups.

Compare to JP groups that kill for 180+ every fight and making 4,000-5,000 exp an hour. Those enemies giving 180+ to the party, is simply TOO STRONG for a redmage to even land any hit at all.

I switched to /blm at around that level (25-27), I had more mp and spells and everything got better. Every group i was in even kill faster than when i used /war, had a better use of mage's MP and the killing are just plain smoother.

Level 30 I'd say is the last chance Rdm can be a decent melee with centurian sword. After that, the sword we can use are just plain sucks (all the good ones go to pld/drk/war). And our dex fall a lot behind fighters.

I'm not saying RDM should not melee, you should as long as it's not slowing down the group. Just don't forget to cast and know your limits.
- low MP, sit. Don't keep attacking when your group needs MP.
- Have bard, stay back for ballad. No bard, go ahead and join the attack.
- Enemies can group attack? stay back.

That's about it.

= IMAGINE THIS =
Imagine yourself as some other jobs that is not a RDM. And is a party leader. Are you inviting Rdm to melee or to cast? What kind of Red Mages do you want in your group?
Are you picking Rdm/war to do damage or rdm/mage to cast spells?

The NA version just beed released for 1 and a half month, I am currently a level 58 rdm with 5 AF pieces. Will I be able to reach this level if I am a Rdm/war?

[Rico]

Originally posted by Jei
For your information. I used Rdm/War when i leveled my first Rdm, Jazaar. all the way from 1 to 27. And I simply found out it's not working. It worked very well from 1 to 20, but after 20, not only I can't participate in the skillchain which is the main killing damage for the party, I barely have any time to swing at all due to my casting. And actually I even slow down the party when they need to spend extra healing power on me when I got affected by any moves like group paralyse from batallia's tigers.

And my party experience, I can see why Rdm in NA parties can do decent damage. All NA parties I was in, only kill for 60-100exp a kill. giving me around 1,500 - 2,000 exp an hour the most. While there are some greater NA groups out there doing 200+ a kill, those are pretty rare and everytime i got invited into a random NA groups, they normally are the 1,000-1,500 exp per hour groups.

Compare to JP groups that kill for 180+ every fight and making 4,000-5,000 exp an hour. Those enemies giving 180+ to the party, is simply TOO STRONG for a redmage to even land any hit at all.

I switched to /blm at around that level (25-27), I had more mp and spells and everything got better. Every group i was in even kill faster than when i used /war, had a better use of mage's MP and the killing are just plain smoother.

Level 30 I'd say is the last chance Rdm can be a decent melee with centurian sword. After that, the sword we can use are just plain sucks (all the good ones go to pld/drk/war). And our dex fall a lot behind fighters.

I'm not saying RDM should not melee, you should as long as it's not slowing down the group. Just don't forget to cast and know your limits.
- low MP, sit. Don't keep attacking when your group needs MP.
- Have bard, stay back for ballad. No bard, go ahead and join the attack.
- Enemies can group attack? stay back.

That's about it.

= IMAGINE THIS =
Imagine yourself as some other jobs that is not a RDM. And is a party leader. Are you inviting Rdm to melee or to cast? What kind of Red Mages do you want in your group?
Are you picking Rdm/war to do damage or rdm/mage to cast spells?

The NA version just beed released for 1 and a half month, I am currently a level 58 rdm with 5 AF pieces. Will I be able to reach this level if I am a Rdm/war?

/clap :thumbsup: nicely said Jei.

Red Mages is a surrport class if you want to deal damge while casting magic be a drk or pld subed with war :sweat: Jei took his RDM to lvl 70 this is second character this guy knows everything about rdms

[Apple Pie]

The NA version just beed released for 1 and a half month, I am currently a level 58 rdm with 5 AF pieces. Will I be able to reach this level if I am a Rdm/war?
It's off topic but you're so fast, aren't you? :P

Well, I can only spend two hours on leveling a day since I have a job in real life but yesterday I also got 5th AF from the treasure coffer in Castle Oztroja.

As for the main topic, I don't think I would go such further if I choose to be RDM/WAR because if there are two RDMs, RDM/WAR and RDM/BLM, the latter is defenitely preferred and invited first.

In order to get 4,000+ exps an hour, we must get 4th or 5th chain bonuses but it really depends on our MPs. If there's no MP for Cure, then we have to stop and take a rest. That's it.

[Halorin]

Maybe everyone's not trying to race up to level 70 so then there's nothing to do. I would rather be in a 1,500-2,000 exp an hour group because it's fun to be around people and it's fun for me to melee. I'm not trying to reach 70 as soon as possible. It just sounds ridiculous to me that someone would want to get to level 70 in 2 months and then have nothing to do but change to a job you may not like as much and start it all over again. Ah well. I play how I want to play.

[Discordian]

All we're saying is that one day you'll wakeup at the homepoint and smell the red mage in the air. Thats mage with a capital MAGE. It works fine as a melee class for awhile, then dips hard.

rdm's will figure it out looking at the logs about what difference their sword damage vs spell damage do. I heal a LOT in fights, if it looks like the tank is starting to fall behind how fast the whm can keep him up, I give him a couple Cure2 spells. That puts him back nice and far in the pearly white area that warriors like to be in.

Learn the filters. I pulled out all of the damage around me except my own. I do that so that I can see if my enfeeble spells stick to the baddie and when they get shrugged off. Then I recast them OR if the enemy has about 1/4 life left, I just drop the blm magic on it and kill it quicker.

Sword works well to a point and then it becomes a thing that makes you feel safe. Like a law enforment officer on the street with a pistol sent into a warzone. Thats when you get something bigger, because it works.

No reason you shouldn't have as many enfeeble spells as you can. Dark Magic helps too but a blm has a better chance at getting Bio off after level 34 because the blm should have a higher Dark skill. Leave that spell to a blm mage and play ultimate super substitute for the party. Take every magic burst oppertunity you can grab. Sometimes an enfeeble spell works better than an attack spell. It appears to last a LOT longer when you burst an enfeeble after a chain then when you do it normally.

Thats what makes this class fun and exciting.

[Arli]

Well, I have to agree with Jei and Apple Pie completely on this topic. After getting Refresh and Convert - the RDM is the ultimate support unit. Refreshing, debuffing, back-up healing and nuking take up a TON of time and ALOT of MP. Getting up into melee range of an IT mob at level 40+ is foolhardy for a RDM. Not only is it valuable time you could be spending regaining mana or keeping buffs/debuffs up, it puts you into harms way. Sure we can take a licking more than most caster classes, but we are just as important in a PT as a WHM. A good RDM with BRD backup can keep casters going almost indefinately if you have the right tools (Refresh and Convert), which means the melee players will have stamina to keep on fighting.

I really can't stress enough how important it is for a RDM to begin acting like a mage after level 30, because come level 40-41 when Refresh and Convert become available, meleeing RDM are going to have a hell of a time keeping their party in top condition. I find myself forgoing DEF on my gear for more MP and INT/MND boosts. Remember, both casters AND melee rely on your abilities - learn to use them and master your role. The shift from the 30's to the 40's for a RDM is drammatic, and Jei and Apple Pie's words ring very, very true.

[Jei]

Halorin
At level 55 you need 20,000 exp a level. If you're stuck in a 1,000 exp an hour group you'll need 20 hours per level at that point. tell me if that really is the fun part for you :P

The real fun part for me is what you can do after levelling up. Getting all AF pieces, have enough level to wear them, start doing treasure hunts, progress on story line and beat shadow lord, Have enough level to battle crystal warriors, etc etc etc those are stuff im looking forward to do. And getting stuck in a party making 1K exp an hour which will take forever per level isn't just the idea of fun to me.

I don't mind having a little less fun in party if it means i can level faster. I don't expect to have the most fun when level up but I am levelling up to do the fun stuff. If you understand what I mean.

I melee in party all the time if it's not slowing down the group. My damage is a "nice little add," and not something that meant to be the main damage to the group. But, I also enjoy staying behind and cast spells too.

To everyone.
If you have no fun casting, then why are you playing red mage? red mage is a caster. If you want to be the main damage dealer for the group, want to melee all the time and can't stay behind to cast, then, change job now. Don't even bother levelling red mage pass 40 because red mage will not give you the role you want.

Red mage can melee. But trying to strengthen the melee aspect will only lower your value as a red mage.

Strengthen your casting. Enhance your spells. Use your magics/ And you'll be a red mage everyone love.

[Taskmage]

Let me just say this for the people that are still dissenting. The way that Jei and Apple Pie and the other experienced players are saying you should play a red mage is not the right way to play a red mage. The right way to play any character is the way that is fun for you! This is a game after all. The entire purpose is to have fun.

However, from a standpoint of safety and efficiency the most effective way to play a red mage is to be a mage. Do the job the party recruited you to do. Red mages are casters (imo the best casters) and if you're not making the most of your mana and the mana of the other casters in your party then you're not playing at your full potential. If you find that you can melee and still fullfill your role of enfeebling, healing, and getting as many MBs as possible then great, keep doing that until it stops working if that's what's fun for you. But rest assured it will stop working. Either have a backup plan ready for when that happens, most likely another mage class sub, or rethink your career as a red mage. Consider dark knight or paladin if you still want to be versatile but prioritize melee.

Like Halorin said the exp grind is not the end-all and be-all of the game, but some of it is necessary to meet any other goal in the game and you want to make the most of your time. If you're having fun and are happy with your slower party then fine, but eventually you're going to get tired of being the same level and when that happens you're probably going to want to play the suggested way.

Btw, I wouldn't worry to much about suddenly reaching 70 and having nothing to do. 75/37 is a goal that will take months to reach regardless of how hard you chase it.

[Apple Pie]

I really like to be a supporter because we're the ones providing the whole PT members with full of exps and joys although what we do may be boring to others. We should be proud of ourselves and in fact, many people have respect on both BRDs and RDMs. That's why we are popular and always "Sold-Out," especially after LV40.

Well, unless we go outside leveling with our friends or LS members, we always team up with someone we don't know. Only one thing we know is we all want as much exp as possible and get our LVs up. FF battle is systematic and each job has its own task. If the PT is well-balanced and each of PT members does her/his job perfect, we iventually get tons of exp. We may be very busy in our task and have no time typing our keyboards. However, when we really concentrate on something, we are usually in a good mood and feel satisfied.

I remember when I went to Crawler's Nest at my LV41 hunting Soldier Crawlers. Our PT consisted of BRD, PLD, RDM (me), THF, WAR, and WHM (all LV41). We kept fighting for almost three hours without saying anything. We just so much concentrated on our task and simply had no time to talk. However, all of us did it perfect and got around 15,000 exp. I never failed to recast Refresh to 4 people (including myself) as soon as it goes off. When we killed the last one, we simply couldn't help screaming and shouting. We felt we really achieved something great. We even kept talking for a while after we went back to Jeuno because we were still excited.

Isn't the story like this fun to you guys? I rather hate the PT without discipline; chat-chat-chat but dead-dead-dead and got only 1,000 exp in three hours. Waste so many apple pies whenever I died :P This kind of PTs make me nothing but stressed-out.

[Patchinko]

No need for me to beat a dead horse, especially when others of higher level (who fortunately are saying exactly what I've found true :)) are preeching that RDM is a mage and not a melee class.

Considering the fact that RDM has mage defense and attack among other things, subbing DRK would be a very bad idea, I would imagine. You'd be a mildly better damage-dealer than a RDM/WAR with far worse defense and more hate. Bad combo all the way around.

I get so annoyed when I join a PT and have people asking me why I'm not pulling out my sword or using provoke (yes, I'm subbing WAR right now at RDM24 for the reason that it makes a good sub for most of the advanced jobs, especially BST ;)) while I'm in the back row enfeebling, supporting the WHM and casting appropriately timed BLM for magic bursts. :(

[Weezingpipes]

My own perspective of red mages is many of them are frustrating. I read this thread and saw a lot of people who do understand what they are meant to contribute to a party, and melee damage really is not it. To this day, I've grouped with 3 good red mages and the thing they all had in common was they didn't melee, or at least not unnecessarily. Red mages get the least MP of all the mage jobs, and its especially noticeable for the non hume/taru red mages. It makes no sense to me why a rdm would melee when they could be helping heal so the whm doesn't have to rest as much to continue the chain. It makes no sense why a rdm wouldn't prioritize their MAGE duties over adding really sad melee damage. If you honestly believe your damage is gonna really help compared to the time wasted not healing for mp or helping with cures, you'd be best advised to pick another job.

I think the biggest problem is many non red mages simply haven't got the slightest clue what a red mage does in a group, how much their enfeeble spells do help, etc. So they don't mind when a red mage turns on auto attack and goes afk. The problem with this is the NUMEROUS red mages who don't understand their role by the time they get over 30 never learn. There is a 45 red mage right now with a warrior sub on Midgardsormr who spends all of his time in a party meleeing, and nothing else. Doesn't help heal, doesn't enfeeble, just melees. I blame the people who invite him to groups and don't explain to him what he should be doing (but I personally think its fairly lazy people don't read forums such as these for info, not like its time consuming). The important thing to remember is while just melee might be fun for some people, it isn't just your time spent, its the other 5 people in your parties time. Show a bit of consideration and be an active participant in your group, and do what your group needs.

But not to rag on RDM melee entirely, it has its uses. As mentioned at times it can be useful in renkei depending on the party make up, but the real damage comes from magic bursts, not the low swings for 10 dmg or so with your sword. And no I don't play a rdm, I just pay attention to what the other people in my parties do and I see what works, and what does not. At least on Midgardsormr I think many players either think RDM's contribution is to melee, or that rdm are completely worthless, and that is unfortunate. It is a two fold problem caused by other players' lack of info, and red mages who haven't settled into the party supporter role.

[Discordian]

Less and less. I'm looking at my weapon slot as another way to get INT boosts now. A damaging weapon is almost bottom priority now. My compound circlet which has been a stable item since level 9-39 has now been retired in the moghouse. I'm using a combat casters cloak for the INT bonus.