Redmage - best subjob for ninja

[KingTonberryIV]

I was wondering - it seems the role of the ninja has become a tank because of blink. and the ninja could do other enfeeble using ninjitsu, etc. but doesnt the redmage already get blink? instead of buying powders, couldnt the ninja just cast blink on himself using the redmage sub? or at the least, he could save money by not using blink powders as much. a ninja with a rdm sub would get blink at lvl 46. thats not too shabby in my opinion. before the battle, he could also give himself stoneskin, phalanx, haste, en - spells, blazespikes etc. i think slapping these on himself would be just as beneficial as any ability thief or war, or any of the other subjobs can give.

also it would save him some moeny because he wouldnt need to buy some of those powders for blindness, poison etc. he could cast those himself.

just my two cents.

[Ghostlion]

From what I hear, the usutsemi blink is far more powerful than a redmage's blink. Especially if the ninja were lv 46. He would most likely have a blink that let him avoid at least 6 hits as opposed to the redmages 1 (or was it 2?)

[Aaramis]

Couple of quick comments :

1 - Ninjutsu Blink1 is about on par with the RDM Blink. Also keep in mind that you'll get the Ninjutsu Blink1 a LONG time before you get the RDM Blink. But yes, Blink2 certainly seems far better. I'd imagine the same goes for the 2nd version of some of the other debuffs as well (Blind, Slow, etc.), but can't verify it as...well... I'm not a lvl70 Ninja :p

2 - RDM spells are still a great combo. Elemental debuff with Ninjutsu, then cast the appropriate elemental nuke after that. In a group, you can debuff for your own magic bursts, or to help the other nukers in the group.
The RDM sub will also up your INT a bit, and help get less resists on your spells.
RDM spells also cost 0 gil to cast (obviously), so you can save on a few Ninjutsu spells by sticking with the RDM versions for now. You also get a bunch of spells the Ninja can't cast, such as Sneak, Protect, Cure(s), Gravity, etc.
En- buffs will add to your dps, but have a very short duration. These alone can drain your manapool very fast in a group.

3 - Phalanx, Stoneskin, and the like are great for absorbing damage. However, as a NIN/RDM the only time you should be tanking is if you're soloing :p In that situation, they'll be a great asset. But in groups, you probably won't use those spells at all.

4 - strongly suggested to either stock up on juices, or start working up Culinarian to make your own. 1 Juice will pretty much refill your manabar for quite a lot of levels, and allow you to actually use your mana.

It's a great combo, though, and more of a support melee/debuffer role (which I feel Ninjas were meant for), rather than a Blink tank. Between the RDM spells and Ninjutsu, you have ALOT of versatility to offer a group.
Just be sure to make use of it.

[Razz]

Some quick comments:

Ninja and Paladin are tanks only, therefore their best and only subjob is Warrior.

A mage subbed will give you half it's max skill for whatever magic, therefore you will be resisted if you subbed rdm.

Ninja's debuff ninjutsu is far far better than the mage's. I was using slow and blind version 2 at level 50 along with utsusemi and the enemy struggled to move and hit me. Too bad it's so expensive.

[Aaramis]

/shrug Razz.

I still feel the Ninja was intended for more than Provoke and chain-casting Utsesemi.

I've also heard from some others who have subbed RDM that they generally don't have a problem landing debuffs, so I think the combo could work IMO.

But to each their own.
Personally, I don't want to be NIN/WAR_90139507.

[Fendall]

I have been planning on going NIN/RDM for a while because I think it would be a lot of fun and a cool combo to play. Like aaramis said, NIN/WARs are so abundant already, something different is nice to see for a change. I think being able to debuff/buff and having the En spells will add a little extra something to NIN instead of voke/blink, voke/blink, voke/blink, etc.

[Bluejoker1118]

WTF who says ninjas are just tanks. They are heavy damage dealers if used correctly. And with blink you wont get damaged. So i think NIN/MNK would also work but taru NIN/RDM sounds cool

[tonka]

The RDM (and WHM get it at the same level) takes a very long time to cast. You cannot cast it while getting hit like Blink. I also think there is a lockout timer on it, so at best it will save you 1 blink powder per fight.

OTOH RDM get Fast Cast which should let you use powders quicker...

Even as RDM main there will be problems landing debuffs on IT mobs at later levels. As RDM sub, debuffs will have a lot of difficulty landing and require many casts at higher levels. It would be better if another mage did it.

A WHM is much better at landing debuff than a RDM subjob.

[Ghostlion]

Heheh, whenever I see someone saying that ninjas are tanks only, I imagine the shredder from TMNT or big, slow, heavily armored (and loud) people calling themselves ninjas (with a big N emblazoned on their armor just to prove it)

"I am samurai."

"Oh yeah?! Well I.R. Ninja, stoopid weasel sam R.I.!"

:spin:

[KingTonberryIV]

i dont think the whm debuff(enfeebling i think you mean?) spells will land better than the redmage. actually i am 100% sure that redmage has better enfeebling capability than a whitemage. so if someone decides to sub redmage, they will have a better chace enfeebling than a whitemage.


as for subbing war - thats true that subbing war gives you provoke, which is most important for a tank. so now i guess i dont know how a nin can keep hate on them. but if it wasnt for that fact, i think a nin/rdm would still be more versatile/fun to play than a nin/war. because a nin is already weak anyways and cant melee or defend without blink, so a warrior wouldnt really add much as a sub.


but what i dont understand is how the nin came to be the blink tank? if the other mages have blink, why are they not tanks too?

[Ghostlion]

From what others say, Usutsemi is a near instant cast while a mage's blink spell has quite a long casting time. Higher level Usutsemi will allow you to avoid multiple hits and require only gil instead of MP (so you can keep casting til you run out of powder)

[Vivid]

Have you seen the number next to Razz's "NIN"? It is "50" which means he has had more experience in leveling ninja than majority of the people replying here.

One thing I'd like to stress is that he doesn't type for his own good. He's got it made already, he can level ninja whenever he like and not give a crap about people on these boards, but he does. He posted his advice, don't trash him because of it.

I've been hearing a lot about people saying nin/rdm is awesome. But let me lay out the hard facts seeing as I look to be the ninja "head" around here.

Ninjas cannot deal massive damage. Even if used well. I've subbed thief my entire ninja career, until lately. The damage just doesn't add up when compared to a warrior or monk... Even thief can out damage a ninja during a battle. Simply put, ninjas are not damaging machines.

Ninjas will never have the MP to fufill the requirments of subbing red mage. Just think of it. Even if you cast rdm blink+ninja blink 1 and 2, you need to understand that: a) the two different types do not stack, and b) by the time you manage to do it, the monster is half dead and the mass amount of hate has already been distributed to your lead tank. In other words, you won't be able to stoneskin+blink+phalanx your way into the monster's sight.. Thus, making you a useless character (little damage, wasted MP, wasted slot in PT).

It's become dreadfully apparent to me that warrior IS the only GOOD sub for a ninja. Yeah, there are tons out there. Yeah, you'll want to stand out from the others. But trust me on this one, nin/thf is good while in the low levels, even fuidama won't be as horrific as a warrior's regular criticals. NIN/RDM may be good during the SUPER low levels (soloing purposes), and that's about it.

So, in the end, I hope you take this ?advice? and put it to good use. And if you think you know more about ninja then I do, then feel free to post and say so... Just so that people can laugh at you.

[Ghostlion]

So exactly how useless will I be as a ninja with a monk sub?

[Aaramis]

Viv, nobody's slamming Razz.

We're simply saying that some of us don't buy into the whole thing that the ONLY viable subclass for NIN is WAR.

And yes, I saw the signature with all those levels. Grats, want a cookie guys?
Trust me, I've played numerous MMORPGs, and levels do not necessarily mean knowledge about the game. I've grouped with high-end gamers who didn't know their arse from a hole in the ground, and other times with low level "noobies" who knew more instinctively about a game than some others ever would.
So while I value the insights and advice of the experienced ninjas, I don't blindly swallow everything someone says due to the fact that they're a "lvl60 / 60 / 60 / 50 / 30" or whatnot.

I also don't see anyone saying that they figure RDM will be a damage dealing NIN.
If I wanted a damage dealer, I'd go play a RNG or DRK. Simple as that.
We might do a bit more damage overall with that combo (En- buffs, and some mana for nukes), but we're still no "damage dealer" class, that's for sure.

I simply don't buy into the whole NIN class as being solely meant for Blink tanking. We have elemental DD/Debuffs, katanas with status effects, and in essence, we're a more expensive RDM in alot of ways.
So it would only seem to reason that we should combine well with RDM in some regards (in other regards it may be a redundant combination). We'll see with time I guess. I haven't hit the "high-end" material with this combo yet, so I guess I'll see soon. But so far I haven't had a problem. .

And although I don't agree with the title of this post that the RDM is the "perfect" subjob for the NIN, I do, however, feel it is still a viable combo. At least until 30+. Once I fight BCNM40s, things may change. But like I said, we'll see.

[one true zog]

This is advice coming from people who's main goal is to level, level, level.
You could put a monkey in front of a computer and it'd be lvl 75 in short order.

[qweezy]

I don't know about others, but for me I'd rather get done with leveling sooner rather then later. When you don't have to worry about EXP anymore, the game becomes a whole lot more fun, go whereever you like and do whatever you want. Time is precious to me, if you like wasting time waiting around all the time be my guest.

[Asmandeus]

When PvP hits all of these subbing debates will totally change. NIN/WAR might be good for doing mob exp, but what about PK? Are you going to blink tank your opponent to death?

I think not.

[qweezy]

Picture of machines? o.0. Are you sure you're at the right forum? Your farmer friends are at www.farmer.com lol.

Is that you driving the tractor? Very segsy.

[one true zog]

tractors = farming = farming for items at 75 = ah, you're obviously too stupid to get it so how about:

EDITED by Rico

[qweezy]

Lol, pwned? Please stop banging your head on the wall, you're gonna hurt yourself.

Like any other MMOs, it's about testing your skills against tough opponents, and getting the rewards for it(items, new places to explore whatever). If you call that farming, then maybe you shouldn't even be playing this game at all :rolleyes: .

I think you just voilated the rules, excessive flaming. Good job.

[PhoR]

PVP isn't going to be PK.. you're not going to be killing other players at all, so that's not even going to be a factor.

The way the dev's have answered my questions, it's going to be some sort of contest between parties, such as who can get the most conquest points per party member in a certain amount of time.

[Asmandeus]

Bah to no PK. Although if you think about it, PK would be wildly unfair anyway.

[Rakhir]

Opinions: Good
Beating Dead Horses: Bad
Flaming like little kids with no patience: Stupid

I'm a Tarutaru NIN/RDM and I don't want to be the main tank. I want to cast very occasionally and sometimes SOMETIMES save lives with cure when the WHMs are busy. I have mainly AGI+,DEX+, and then MP+armor on. Although I don't rest for MP that much and tend to work on building my TP for Renkei's while using my elemental debuff ninjutsu for the BLM's. I have little to no problem finding PT's when there are people around as well (As far as being lvl 17 goes.) Sure, I may have trouble finding PTs at one point or another, but I'm going to have fun either way because of this: I'm playing with good friends of mine and the job combo that I want. I don't care how useless or uneffective I seem to some of because I like playing this combo enough to follow it through no matter how hard it is. Also, to all of you NIN's that have the highest fighting experience under your belt - I respect you less when you cannot see diffrent paths to walk down but one.
Whew, that feels better:thumbsup:

[Wish420]

heh play your nin/rdm once u get past noob stage no one will want to pt you, ninja without provoke/utsusemi? what a joke, gtfo

[Vivid]

Here's some tried and true facts again... especially for those of you who think all I do is level:

1. If you're leveling ninja solely for PvP purposes, you may as well quit. In order to attain PvP "rights" there are certain requirements which means higher levels.

2. NIN/WAR is the FASTEST way to level

3. NIN/RDM, although not the greatest option for tarus, will work [but only for tarus]. And like I said, still not the greatest option.

4. Ninja's ninjutsu doesn't do crap for damage when compared to a warrior's regular attacks. ANY dreams of being a damage dealer are nulled... You don't meet any requirements for damage, you don't have any of the neccesary spells that actually prove to be usefull as a 'mage'.

This is tried and true. You don't believe me? Go ahead and experiment, just trying to save you folks the trouble of going through the pain.

You don't want to listen, it seems. So screw it. I don't need to waste my time here anymore helping people who think they have a grasp of what it's like at the higher levels. Good luck to you... You'll definately need it.

[Rakhir]

I apprciate your advice Vivid. Although, you need to get over yourself and realize you were once the same as us. I'm sure you DO realize this fully-you just aren't acting like it. Wish something something, you can go play your job. I'll play mine.

[one true zog]

ninja was one of the jobs I was planning on (fuck thief and thier super gay peter pan meets mc hammer AF :mad: )

but seeing how the only "approved" combo is a unfuckingbelievably boring voke/blink, then meh.......i'm not even going to waste my time :zzz:

[Rakhir]

Tell me a million more times I'm not playing the combo thats the best. Then I'll tell you a million more I don't care. :p

[Ghostlion]

I'm wondering if subbing monk is a waste of my time. (And by waste of time, I refer to me sitting around with the seeking party icon over my head vainly waiting for someone to invite me) I staunchly refuse to be a blink tank as a ninja; if I wanted to tank, I would play a PAL, DRK, or stay with MNK/WAR. I picked ninja over SAM and DRK because it seemed a very very attractive as a class: Dual weapons, spiffy ninjutsu and stealth abilities and neat armors at higher levels.
Perhaps I didn't think it through enough, perhaps I didn't fully comprehend what I was getting into. I knew it was going to be expensive to play and am fully capable of paying for everything I need, but I was completely unprepared for (the majority of players) thinking that ninjas are nothing but second rate WAR/PAL/DRK with flashy techniques.

[Vivid]

Here's the thing folks.

I WAS once like you. I fully understand that which is why Im trying to warn you in advance. I was nin/thf until the higher levels. But in the higher levels, ninja becomes totally useless UNLESS you can tank. So take it at that, but it's close to the only way you can get up there... Unless you find a very nice group of people who take you along in a set PT. Either way, it's your choice in the end. Good luck on reaching AF^^

::edit::
Oh. If you want my advice. NIN/THF will get more invites than NIN/MNK anyday^^ If you don't want to be a tank, that's the road I suggest you follow.

[Cryptik]

Hehe

sadly everything Vivid said is true.

I always wanted to be a nin/thf...

but then SA does not have DMGE MULT. if THF is subbed....

TA doesnt come till lvl60 NIN MAIN?

If you want to do some big chunks of dmge or good DPS over a small period of time, go THF/WAR or THF/MONK.

THF is a very fun class to play.

I stopped playing THF because there were too many support/dmge dealing classes.

Too many NAs on my server go dmge/support classes.

I did something different.

Currently I have different sources of makin gils. and can afford playing NIN.

GL to everyone.

[Spider-Dan]

I don't mean to criticize, but what is the goal of NIN/MNK? Dual-wield is thrown away, and NIN's other job abilities are... well, non-existant. The only thing you would have would be ninjutsu.

This is a question, not a flame.

[Discordian]

Interesting. Some questions I had were awnsered righ there in this thread. I'm thinking of training ninja tonight with rdm subbed. I'm planning on using the Aspir Knife to repleninsh my MP so that I can cast cures on occasion. I'm not planning on taking it high. Probably level 24 tops. Its a side idea and makes for good fun.

[Reaper]

I like Vivid am another AF wearing ninja, (60 to be precise). So my opinions aren't coming out of the blue and I have even had a few of the same thoughts as the earlier posters and lower level posters here.

These are my views on the current job situation for Ninja:

1) we are really really good at blink tanking. I am not kidding, after level 37 we can null out 10 hits in a row if you know what you are doing and if you are lucky. Since we are good at this I can see why other jobs/pt members expect us to do this.

2) although we are good at nulling out,dodging/parrying hits, we are horrible horrible at holding the monsters hate. Without a thief to set it in us, provoke is barely enough to keep a monster in position. However the recent patch that weakened the thieves yokodama has made me quite popular as the 2nd tank to put the SA/TA into, so finding PTs has been very fast for me.

3) our Ninjutsu spells help debuff monsters to make MBs more damaging and we can also join in for 2 mbs if you are doing a level 2 , 3 man renkei chain. The damage adds up and it does help keep the exp chain going.

4) we have alot of haste gear. we have haste boots that add 3%, haste ring that adds 5% and our AF3 adds haste. Also at level 70 our earring adds 20% haste. With haste from a whm and if my double attack goes off from subbing warrior, it looks like you go non stop shredding machine. HOWEVER your damage is utterly pathetic, averaging around 30 pts of damage a hit. With high dex like plus 20 though or so you crit for 50-60. Still like Vivid says this pales next to a warrior with a crit on a great axe.

5) with point 3 being said, we build up TP like theres no tommorow. With a thief in the pt or monk, we can churn out renkeis quickly.

So basically it boils down to this, we can take hits very well assuming we get the monster to hit us. We are able to link a variety of renkeis via using 1h sword or 1h katana. We also build up Tp extremely fast, so you will need a partner to renkei off with you so you can help make the MB better and join in the MBs. A good partner would be like a thief, samurai or monk type of job. That means we are actually only good at situational tanking, where the hate can be directed at us and we have people in the PT who can work with us to do renkeis quickly or else we are sitting there at 300% waiting for mr. Paladin to get up to 100% or whatever.

I am not saying you shouldn't play what you want, but unless you can guarantee you will get a pt with your bestests friends in the game all the time, I wouldn't venture too far out of the ninja/warrior mold. Ninja/thief didnt sound so bad either, but again the damage is limited. Remember your first multi hit ws comes at 60 and its only a 3 hitter. Ninja monk would let you chain rangeki on your own, but I find pts that let members go off to solo WS not to be that common.

Finally I am currently working on Ninja/ranger for kind of the same reason as Ninja/monk. Since ninjas have a C in gun skill we can learn Slugshot at level 55, which means builds up alot of Tp and fire off slugshot, use your blink to save from getting hit, rinse and repeat. Now since slugshots 5 shots are low on accuracy, you might need some plus accuracy gear, but I have only gotten gun up to 89 so far :sweat: so I will report back here again if this works. Certainly would make us good damage dealers :biggrin:

Good luck and I hope this help gives more ideas on what a ninja can or can't do, personally I am kind of sick of using up 99 shiheis for a pt. Good or bad exp you still use them up as a tank so yeah please tell me I have missed something after 60 levels :p

[one true zog]

Well..you look at the damage you do per hit vs a warrior 2h axe hit, then yeah, it's gonna be sad

But how many swings do you get in for every swing the warriors does?

[Reaper]

Well the warrior AF gear at the equivalent level of me gives them increased chances for double attack for going off. So on an average round i might get in 4-5 hits while he gets in 2. You have to remember our weapons at the level I have experience in are about damage rating of 19-22 or so. Its not alot of damage when you deal with monsters like, robber crabs, terror pugils, knight crawlers etc etc. Most of these monsters have high defense even before they use their defense boosting spells. So the flurry of regular hits we land in usually don't add up to much of a warriors regular few hits.

Another thing to keep in mind is, even if we did manage match the warrior in damage in terms of regular hits because we get in more hits than they do, why would we get invited into a PT when we don't bring that much to the table for damage? Wouldn't you invite another ranger or monk or drk and just ask them to deal damage for you??

[Rakhir]

If i wanted to do as much damage as a WAR, I'd be a WAR. I'm still sticking with RDM/NIN. I cast less and less yes, but my cures (when I have them) keep the mages healed so they don't need to worry about thier hp as much. I cast elemental ninjutsu then cast spells between blows to do more damage with them and also do Renkeis according to what I've weakend it to. Maybe I'm just lucky in finding PT's and I'm certain that in later levels this will change. I'm going to take my job combo as far as I can though. No matter how novel it seems:biggrin: .

[Skygto]

I support you fully Rakhir, I'm going Nin/Rdm aswell.

[Ghostlion]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
I don't mean to criticize, but what is the goal of NIN/MNK? Dual-wield is thrown away, and NIN's other job abilities are... well, non-existant. The only thing you would have would be ninjutsu.

This is a question, not a flame.

Because I picked monk when I made my character and was not sure what advanced job I would take or even what the job system was like. Now the only job class I have with any significant level is monk.

Your question seems to imply that I am going mnk/nin, not nin/mnk. To answer your question though, at least part of it, the monks abilities would not necessarily be wasted. I will have increased HP (not that great admittedly), counter-attacks (not lvl 20 with nin yet so don't know how great that would work), focus, dodge, and chakra. Once again, this is not something I researched as I made my character shortly after US launch.

Though my frustration with ninja (trying to earn tenshodo fame) may be my undoing and cause me to burn out and drop the game as my patience tends to run thin at times.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Ghostlion
Your question seems to imply that I am going mnk/nin, not nin/mnk.
I admit, it was poorly worded; since you seem to be using h2h equipment, I can't exactly say that your Martial Arts bonus is wasted, can I? The best way to put it would have been, "Either Dual Wield or Martial Arts goes to waste." IMO, those are the two main reasons to sub either of the jobs in question.

To answer your question though, at least part of it, the monks abilities would not necessarily be wasted. I will have increased HP (not that great admittedly), counter-attacks (not lvl 20 with nin yet so don't know how great that would work), focus, dodge, and chakra.
Agreed; MNK always brings something to the table (this is also why my question was worded the way it was), but NIN has no job abilities, so the only thing it brings is Dual Wield and Ninjutsu. NIN seems to be just about the least compatible job with MNK, because their main benefits are in direct conflict.

Though my frustration with ninja (trying to earn tenshodo fame) may be my undoing and cause me to burn out and drop the game as my patience tends to run thin at times.
I've heard very good things about MNK/SAM, and I'm considering going that route sometime in the future.

[Vivid]

It's funny you brought up the nin/rng combo, Reaper. Im actually experimenting with that myself. hehe~

[Reaper]

Hey Vivid, let me know how that works out if you get your marksmanship up to 150. I am stuck using all money raising carpentry, got it up to the big 45, but I need about 50 or so to start making HQ shiheis. When thats done I will resume my ranger project. Would be interesting too to see what would happen when the ranger got to 30. Seeing thats when he gets ?that multiple shot ability I think.

And my opinion about Ninja/Monk: I can only think of one thing good for that, chain rangeki. but then you can't do it as fast as a regular monk with samurai or thief subbed. Also limits your weapons to grapples which I believe ninjas don't have such a high rating in. But hey you wont get hit, you will definitely dodge well, counter attack, and you can blink on top of that. That also is another interesting route, but its not much different from painting yourself into the corner like the ninja/war. Just different corner and different paint.

Rahkir- I pted once with a RDM/NIN and that didn't seem too bad for several points. One was, his enhancement skill was maxed out so he could en-thunder-fire-whatever his weapons and it would do reasonable damage.(it worked on both his duel weilded weapons) he also had the mp to keep it going. Two was he was able to heal like you said you want to. It was quite interesting, but most of your utility lies in your ability to hit the monster you are fighting. You are going to have figure out how to balance your agility /dex and int/ mp gear I suppose. When you get Phalanx, Refresh and Haste, I think it would actually not be too bad. But it seems like it was made more for soloing then a group. If you were to join a group at the higher levels, about 50 or so what would you bring to the party that some one else in a more orthodox class couldn't do better at longer? But I think I will give this a shot one day after I save up enough money myself to buy those said spells :)

[Aaramis]

Any 60+ NINs tested out NIN/SAM yet?

With all the high-level haste gear, I'd imagine that while NIN can't do the best damage, they could certainly bust out ALOT of weaponskills, especially with Meditate.

[Lean]

In reply to an earlier thread, NIN/MNK is a good combo^^

But when your NIN reaches 12, better sub WAR^^

[Lean]

Aaramis, our WSs blow^^

You want to sub SAM? Sub it with WAR/SAM

If you don't want to go NIN/WAR, you can always go WAR/NIN^^

[Vivid]

nin/war is NOT the only way to go... man, each post i read from you has been really lame and lacks any support for your "nin/war is THE ONLY WAY TO GO" posts. if it was truly the only way to go, i wouldn't be 60. go put your head under a bus tire.

[Lean]

Originally posted by Vivid
nin/war is NOT the only way to go... man, each post i read from you has been really lame and lacks any support for your "nin/war is THE ONLY WAY TO GO" posts. if it was truly the only way to go, i wouldn't be 60. go put your head under a bus tire.

You're right, NIN/WAR isn't the only way to go, WAR/NIN makes an exceptional combo as well.

BTW, have I done something to offend you? Seriously, you have some issues.

[Vivid]

war/nin is an entirely different job. it uses the support job of ninja (this basically means ninjutsu 1 and dual wielding), while capitalizing on the warrior. war/nin, however cool looking it is, doesn't do much for a party in general. because of the extended wait time on your dual weapons, you won't get TP as fast as normal, however, you'll make up for it on your power output. then again, the lack of a lot of HP makes for a weak taunt, even with blink 1 at your disposal.

[Reaper]

I agree that with war/nin the way the job is played differently from nin/war. I don't think there is that much difficulty keeping hate on the monster with your two hits and your ability to sub many different weapons.

Using a heavy axe and or accuracy up weapons its pretty good for landing hits and doing some heavy damage. But like Vivid said its damned slow. You end up doing some constant damage and get in some good crits with dex up gear. You wont be able to build up TP as fast as possible if you had Nin as main.

Your primary job I feel is being the guy for the thief to put the hate into. And helping them provoke when the casters go too trigger happy. Other than that its kind of like a monk with more focus on the gear and what to equip to use for extra dodge, hit or parry or what have you. Monks get it for free with their active abilities while a war/nin would have to get it through equipment.

[KingKong]

so have you 2 try out nin/rdm? what do you think about this ? also i nin/brd? i saw that at lv29 i think not so sure .. brd got haste song. do you guys think this is good combo?

thanks.

[Patchinko]

Vivid's post on the first page hit the nail directly on the head. :)

If you're a main RDM who has tried leveling a melee class with it as a sub (I did WAR/RDM for a bit while leveling WAR for a main sub, which I eventually switched to WHM because it was relatively useless :sweat: ), you'd know very well how practically useless RDM subbed on a melee class is. The interrupt and casting rates are too high and the MP is exceptionally low. Perhaps if you are pushing level 60 and therefore have a little over 100MP with your sub RDM it'd be useful, but otherwise it has little to offer.

People speculate that Phalanx will be very useful, which it will be, but let's not forget that your main will have to be level 66 before you can even use it, so it's not even an issue for most of your playtime. Same goes for Stoneskin. So yeah, maybe you'll get some advantages as a NIN70/RDM35, but nobody here talking about using the NIN/RDM combo is even close to that level.

To contrast, RDM/NIN seems like a very useful combo for the RDMs looking for a different combo from RDM/BLM or RDM/WHM to try out, given the ability of NIN to cause elemental weakness and the dual enchantments granted by dual weild. A RDM/NIN can carry both a sword and a wand and increase his effectiveness a great deal in both melee and magical aspects, not to mention being able to singlehandedly exploit the effects of the Utsusemi spells.

Also, I've heard a lot of good buzz about NIN/RNG, which I'm considering because I truly despise leveling WAR. :sweat: My only problem is that RDM already being extremely expensive, combining the two most expensive jobs (NIN and RNG) would be a death sentance, even with a healthy cash flow. :(

[Vivid]

Originally posted by Patchinko
My only problem is that RDM already being extremely expensive, combining the two most expensive jobs (NIN and RNG) would be a death sentance, even with a healthy cash flow. :(

it is. ;)

[isilidure]

NIN/RDM this combo has very ineresting appeal i think. The ability to cast spells that weaken an enemy against an elemtal then casting the enspell that they are weak against on two swords could be sweet but id like to see this in battle to see how effective it is. the problem with this is that you would need to be a fairly high lvl ninja rdm to pull this off. and the fact that you cant provoke could suck. but at lvl 45 nin your dual weild ability has no hinderance so at that point I think the damage could be pretty ill

[Discordian]

nin/rdm has appeal only if you havn't thought into its inherent problems.

Enspell works sure, however it will only be at the level of enhancing skill that comes from the level of redmage (ninja40/redmage20) so it won't do a lot and you'd be better off with the warriors extra strength anyway.

Enfeebles see above. Enfeebles are an A+ redmage skill, subbed they are worse then F grade and will never land, better to let the whm cast them than a nin/rdm.

Stoneskin see above because its the same problem

Blink compaired to ninja blink, ninja blink is superior. Use it.

[Kiyosuki]

Ninja/Red mage is one of those combo's I keep in the back of my head to try out when I'm far more advanced in high levels. I know people have done this combo before, although they ususally use Nin/War or something else. It sounds like a combo that could really excel in some situations, and in others be a little more hindered. Like of like how Rdm/Brd is really badass in some situations, but is average in others.

The way I see it working is doing that elemental enfeeble/elemental enchancment matchup, and then taking advantage of Elementally heavy Weapon Skills to make the effect even greater. I have some idea's on how proper mixing of the Red magic and the right Ninjutsu's to make they're enfeebling game work better. It would all depend on the situation though, and not be as flexible as it sounds. Some monsters take really heavy damage to they're elemental weakness, and if that were taken advantage of with the right enfeebling weaponry you could seriously cripple an enemy. However some monsters don't take particularly extra damage from they're elemental weakness, or resist enfeebling by a high %. There's also the fact you never get a Dark or Light enfeeble or enchance so monsters with those two weaknesses alone wouldn't be applicable to that game.

Also, Nin/Rdm would work best at 60 and above, because thats when you get the majority of the En spells as well as a wider range of options and a tiny bit more mp. You wouldn't need hundreds of mp to go crazy with spells or anything, you'd only need an occasional one. I'm guessing its enchancing your own enfeebles. Other than that though I ofcourse have little to no experience with this combo. Its something I'll definitely try out when my Nin is 60 +. It sounds like something useful to have as a sub option, like something with one extreme strength, but a little light on everything else. If anything it sounds like a really fun solo combo.

[Bamce Sylph]

posting a slightly altered version from my post in the war forum

its my personal belife that if your going to sub a mage as a melee don't make it a redmage pre 32,

u will get better blackmage spells from a blackmage sub, and probably earlier (including blazespikes at lvl 20, which is the only feasible reason to do it gimped mana pool and such)

from a whitemage u get cure2 at 22 as opposed to 28 w/ a rdm,
u get status cures, i remember how many times i hated my early levels, being poisoned, watching my health tick down wondering if iw as going to live or die. (of course i then started carrying antidotes) u get the same barresist buffs as a rdm only the group versions which have minor downfall of slighty longer casting time.

however at 32 rdmages get they're first enspell. WOOT!, wait no, i'm lieing, enspells damage is based upon your enhancing skill. not on a mobs resistances directly. granted if a mobis weak to (we'll use enthunder b/c its the first one) thunder (and for numbers sake your max en-damage is 6) chances of your enspell doing 6 will be higher, however u can still hit for 3's, or 4's. well hmm... thats not very good, but wait better stuff is coming. at lvl 40 u can get blazespikes!, SWEET! now when the mob hits you it takes damage to go w/ your awsome en spells.....wait.... once again the damage limit of the spikes spell is limited by your enh skill. which as a sub is gimped out.

so by the time your char hit 32, to make a redmage a passable sub, lets think of what else your missing by not subbing a real melee.

Theif -
treasurehunter (oh how u thought u farmed before)
sneakattack
evasion bonus, not being hit is good right?
Gilfinder. who doesn't love the $$
steal, whats mine is mine, and whats yours is mine.

Monk -
boost at lvl 10, thats pretty okay.
Dodge at 15, 5 min reuse, 2 min duration, skill is good, + evasion awsome skill
counter attack, an extra miss for the badguy, not being hit is good right?
a max hp boost free hps, whats wrong w/ that?
martial arts2 i don't think by lvl 30+ u will be using h2h weapons,

Warrior
Provoke... i don't need to go into anymore detail
Beserk fun ablity we all know what this does
Def trait, its free
resist virus once again its free

thats just the basic jobs. now since your level 30 u can get adv jobs, more uberness. we'll take a quick glance at pal/dkn/goon/ranger/bard/sum

those 6 classes were meant to be played as main classes and mainclasses only. granted u could choose them as sub but other classes bring more. oh and bard/sum's should be subbing whm to increase they're efficency but thats another topic on another forum.

Samurai
5 u get warding circle + to party def vs demons..... i still havn't fought a demon......yeah.....
5, pasive resist blind...well missing is bad so....
10 storetp, one of the big sam ablities but it only gives u like 1% more tp per hit....nothing spectacular.
15 gets u third eye which is interesteing it makes one attack miss you, the next attack to be precise, on a good conection and low lag u can use this skill to dodge onehit weaponskills from mobs, save ya a blink once a minute....worthless, gotcha.

at 60/30 u et meditate, the ablity that people sub sam for, and that pre 60 u will see something else as they're sub b/c store tp isn't worth it.

another thing to think about if your instistant on subbing a mageclass then you will need to take into consideration supplementing it through equipment or it will become an even large waste,
why wear electrum rings at 40 when u could wear a snipers ring?
why wear a +mphairpin, when uc an wear emporers hairpin?
why eat pies, when u could be eating mithkabobs?
granted u don't have to make these decisions based soley on your sub but they will make you more effective due to less time before resting, larger pool in general etc

i find it hard to invite rdm/melees (yes i know this isn't theproper forum but bare with me) because they will be tempted to melee and neglect other duties. i had a rdm/dkn in party last night, only spells i ever saw him cast were blink, stoneskin, dispell and refresh, granted he kept up on the refreshing but he didn't enfeeble at all, (the tank and dkn in the group were friends of his so i beared with it, alot harder to replace 3 people than 1) he never /healed and rarely spot healed, and honestly i didn't know he was /dkn until he asked to be warped out. never saw him use aspir, or drain, or even regen.
now lets flip that, lets say i have a nin/rdm. frankly before 32 iwill not invite you unless friend, or no other possible choice, having rdm w/o being able to change to something else, preferably war, says that u havn't leveled a proper sub, and the only real excuse for that is lazyness, i hate having lazy pt memebers . post 32, i will stillgive you a sideways glance may once again ask you to change subs, but if in jeuno i'll give u a look at your gear, rank etc, those things matter as much as the player in the case of rare combos, (i say rare as a euphamisim for crappy, or rare for they are rarely good people behind them and make them work) something needs to make you stand out and if it doens't i will pass you over. now we'll say u made it into the party, what do u do now, go on your enspell+ninjutsu corrosponding, okay good, thats a start, however should u totally neglect your mp's u willrun out, don't rely on rdm's to refresh u, they are usually busy doing they're jobs.

[Kiyosuki]

Yeah I have to agree that subbing a Mage job to a melee is usually not a good idea. The Ninja's a strange job with lots of indirect abilities, but I'd only think of subbing Rdm to it after 60 for any kind of remotely workable play, because then you'd have access to most of the En spells, and other minor spells too as well as at least some mp to even make it happen. Before then I don't honestly see how it could be workable in my opinion. Your options would be really limited.

[fyrewyre]

Thats how i feel. Ninjas dont have a "role" but parts to a play.