Ninjas as damage dealing melee job

[Loc]

I really like the ninjas gear and style, but the tanking with extremely expensive ninjitsu doesn't sound very appealing.

I was wondering if it is possible to play a ninja like a melee class that deals damage without the use of much ninjitsu.

[Loc]

You guys think Ninja/Dark Knight could work possibly for being just melee damage?

[Maxim]

NIN/DRK might do semi-decent damage once they get Darkness, but NINs don't have a lot of HP to work with, and since they attack twice they'll be eating lots of HP while using Darkness. Could be risky. NINs aren't super strong and aren't really melee damage dealers though.

[BobMeisterLlama]

Would NIN/THF work as melee dmg? Vivid?

[Aldo]

Attack can be increased substantially from equipment, war is the the best subjob attack classes have, berserk and passive attack up give the best constant support for attacking. tanking with blink is not that expensive, actually, 99 bags cost roughly 5000gil, and its not that difficult to stockpile them. Its using all the ninjutsus, maxing your ninjutsu level, and making use of shirukens that make the job extremely money-dependant. The job will never be thought of as an attacking class, again, because of the lack of str and the weakness of 1hand katana.

[Ryudan]

Ninja seem like a type of all purpose class if you ask me. They can wear decent armor, weild dual weapons, use ninjutsu (normal magic substitute), and throw weapons efficiently. Only problem with ninja most likely is their low base HP and the fact that the mass use of ninjutsu powders and throwing weapons might require hefting funding.

[Loc]

So.......from what I understand, ninjas have low attack, low defense, low hp, no mp, all they have is blink ninjitsu. I still want to play ninja, but I think they are in SERIOUS need of a buff. Perhaps they could lower the effectiveness of blink and increase the ninjas attack power or something.

[Aldo]

the class is rather original, so I'd urge you to continue in your goal^^. It is best to consider it a tanking class, because the attack is about the same downgraded as a pld. Blink is a rather effective magic I must say, it blocks attacks 100% effectively, which blink magic that whm and garuda use cannot (you can still get hit every now and then), only g-series magic is not resisted. And when you can blink1 and 2 at lv37, it becomes even more fun, but skill is required so you know when to blink/reblink because the magic does have regen times. I am happy with the job as a whole, because i like classes that can use magic and attack, its very nice. NIN is a very well rounded tank that, imo, doesn't get as boring as pld.

[ajg126]

I think ninja is a pretty orignal class idea but I cant really imagine why anyone would pick it over paladin if they want to be the tank of the party (which ninja needs to be). I guess their is the argument that it looks cool or ninjas are cool in general but I'm just talking in terms of effectiveness. I'm a level 43 bard and noone on US players on my server are around my level so I party with only people running the Japanese client. I cant tell you what its like at hgiher levels but i have a first hand experience and probably a general assumption of ninjas.
I think due to the extremely weak status of katana ninjas add very poor damage to the party (this can be made up for though, as explained later). They are rarely used as part of the renkei their DPS is very poor, they are encouraged to boost agi rather than str meaning that theirs not much you can do. I guess you can kind of think of them as negating the attacks of the monster but not doing much themself. While this may sound good I dont really like ninja in my party ( at least at these levels) because their lack of decent attack power makes the experience gain faster. Today in quicksand caves we had a 41-44 party made up of rdm whm brd nin drg thf. obviously it wasnt an ideal party but it was close. With a bard and rdm we had so much mp we didnt know what to do with it, ninja's blink made mp kind of useless. IN other parties similar to the i would normally choose to substitute warrior or paladin for ninja because of their increased damage. Our high mp pool meant we could have kept a job healed that was doing more damage but ninja didnt really have that option. warrior does.
I do however think that parties with ninjas can be effective. because the ninja i partied withwas a friend of the rdm who i was with i was glad to party with them and we decided that instead of whm we would get a blackmage because the ninja's blink made a rdm with blm and brd as backup healers more than enough to heal. this would have probably helped to make up some of the damage but i dont know if blm will be able to do as much as an efective warrior, especially later levels. Similarly as soon as raise2 hits i think the ideal party will have a whm for raise bumping blm off the list therefore brining back that huge pool of curing mp.
As far as abilities I'm not so knowledgable about this because i havent seen ninja operate at higher levels and dont know what they have acess too but other than provoke and ninjitsu im not sure how much the ninja has at its disposal to keep hate on him which is his/her responsibility. ninja is argued to be a good tank because they use blink powder. but i would say that possibly the fact that they use blink powder makes them not as good a tank? I mean essentially blink will compensate for XXX amount of damage ninja would take, well paladin instead of evading the attack takes it and then cures himself sometimes therefore compensating for the damage and building hate at the same time. seems like it may be easier to keep hate on tank this way? especially when thiefs yokodama goes away( an effective party can probably compensate). I just dont see why so many low level players are in such a rush to get ninja when they dont have any money or anything. I ask them assuming their answer will be, "O ninja is cool, or I'm just trying to have fun" but instead they tell me that they hear ninja is the best tank in the game and they will therefore get lots of party invites. I just have trouble seeing how that is the case.....

[Shinoro]

Weeellll here's my knowledge and experience of the opinion.

Ninjas have the potential to do good damage, however I think the real problem lies in their choices of weapons as they level. If you look at the buyable list of katanas, they scale up in damage very poorly and the dmg/dly ratio compared to swords, axes, etc., is laughable almost. Ninjas usually have good attack ratings, but being that katanas have insanely low damage, they are C rated in Swords and Daggers, and GKatana are so limited to them that its almost not worth using sometimes, is what dampens their damage output.
Add to that, most of the time if you're in a group, you'll be blinking instead of applying your moderately useful DD/debuffs which not only burst on chains, but can debuff for BLMs and renkeis at the same time.

I think the problem here is that Ninjas are foreseen as a job of infiltration and assasxxxxtion by description, and then in turn are given horrible weapons and a powder that lets them not get hit. You have to be dedicated to be a Ninja, fight against the odds and confusion, and afford the job at hand, and stand out. Something of which I'm doing.

[Kirk]

I've been a big ninja fan since about 2 months before the release, and yes just like you said my main reason for wanting to become a nin/war (besides all the coolness ect) was to be a tank. Also I guess there is something to be said for going against the norm to accomplish something. At the very least, even if somewhat inefficient compared to paladin, a high level ninja would be well respected for their accomplishment.

all that aside, I think ninja can be most effective in the right type of pt. I dont have first hand basis for this as im only just lvl 4 NIN :cool: But i do remember with my lvl 25 war i pt'ed in qufim with 4 meele a blm and 1 rdm and it was a totally kick butt group. We killed stuff so fast the rdm easily kept up with heals. I forsee a ninja tank needing to have a similar sort of pt to be most effective. Total offense so to speak. The killing will go fast, the mp slow and hopefully the chaining will be near continous. But since this type of Pt is pretty unconventional, most Nin will probably have to get used to forming their own pt's and customizing them to suit.

[ajg126]

what do you mean when you say you were killing fast?....
For me killing fast is getting 5k xp and hour and chain 4 and 5ing mobs for 180+ dmg. Its seems that with all the ppl i play with they have unbelievable equipment cuz they have other jobs at real high levels and our pt is just insane, and as you get higher up you need to be getting 5k xp and hour or else it takes a REAL long time to level. it isnt really disputable that ninjas arwent a strong class. I mean you can think they are but then your wrong =(. The katanas are weak their WS is piss poor and they arent used in renkei. they spend all their time in battle using blink it seems. THe only real point i see of level ninja is if you think its cool/fun or if you just dont have anything better to do. THis lvl 70 thief on cerbereus named Nono is currently the highest level ninja but he just screws around with it. He has an insane amount of money and can buy all the powders he wants. He also levels ranger for fun too. I wish i could have fun by spending extravaganmt amounts of money.

NInja is arguably as pretty tight subjob too. I like having thieves in the pt who use ninja sub cuz then they have wicked good atk and acc boosts. and also they can blink when they pull!

[BobMeisterLlama]

Hmmmm, I had heard all the info. about NIN/WAR being the only useful Ninja, but then some high lvl NIN/THF's (read: Vivid) and was wondering how that would work, since I don't see how a NIN/THF could tank w/o provoke.

[Aldo]

I agree with you ajg that ninja should not be a main job for someone who does not already have a high level job or means of getting gil fast, because as I said, to be efficient, you must invest alot of gil into the job. In reference to the 1h katanas, their purpose is inflicting status effects, rather than dealing damage. Atleast every other katana has status effects embedded in it, I urge any nin to buy only HQ versions of katanas, their effectiveness is much higher and it is rather beneficial to the party.

On the tanking issue, I chose warrior over pld because of the sheild break, but this is more of a high level problem (accuracy), at lower levels pld is about as good. NIN was always new and revealed in myster to me, so I strayed abit from inviting them as tanks, but now it seems much more common. Chi is a decent weaponskill, although not strong, but vorpal blade and swift blade do not deal that much damage either, they are about the same. Hate-wise, taunt and casting blink + dama from a theif is enough in most situations. It just depends on preferance, I tried using a ninja at mid and high levels, they function about the same, not too many new abilities, battles lasted just about as long, just a change of paste.

[ajg126]

The status effects is somethign that i guess should be factored in but im really not that knoledgable on how beneficial they really are. I know lots of high level thieves run around with stun knives equipped and stuff but I dont know if these status effects woudl even be comparable to the added damage and shield break advanatge that you get from a warrior (not to mention warcry which is a great party boost). In a party with a ninja blink tanking you will most likely have mages with more than enough mp to enfeeble so does the katana effects really add very much more? As for the weapon skill, does RIn even have any effects othwer than damage? the measly damage done by ninjas solo WS i dont think can even be compared to the overall damage increase from less misses by shield break.

I think that as of now the best tank i have seen is warrior sub. Before level 60 when warrior doesent really need to sub samurai this combo seemse just plain awesome. Two very hgih rank friends on my server(both tarus leveling war atm) sub ninja and tank extremely well. They use blink powder sometimes and just take hits sometimes. It has proven to be phenomenally effective at my level ( 45) and i dont really see if they are missing out on much by not subbing anything else till level 60

[Aldo]

Well my #1 tank, as I stated before, was always a war/sam, at lv60+. Before this I didn't even party with warriors so it was fair game between those 3, usually I picked paladin, for same reasons i stated before. samurai sub is the #1 sub for warriors, and rarely you will ever find one not subbing it beyond lv60. Their role changes somewhat, they can renkei decently with Raging Crush and start off battle with Sheild Break.

On the nin topic, yes mages will cast status effects, but they do not always hit the enemy/last very long. nin support assures many status effects are always inflicted on the enemy. In addition some status effects such as defence down, cannot be cast through magic. While a warrior can use this in a break, it has a possibility of connecting with each swipe of a nin's katana. still, these are only trivial things that thelp the party other than blinking nonstop. There are certain situations where monsters use very powerful moves, that could easily kill a paladin (ex: bark tarantulas use sickle slash which can do 1000+ damage to paladins, bats can use jetstream, which does alot of damage as well), in these situations having a copy image absorb all damage could be very beneficial to the party.

I would still prefer a warrior than a ninja, but under some circumstances, i could see where nin could be more desireable than the latter.

[Kirk]

My 2 gil.

I think from the discussion it can be sumized that Ninja tanks can be useful but ultimately can be replaced by a more efficient, less expensive and more common job comination.

So where does this leave us poor <and I emphasize poor> ;) > young Ninja hopefuls? :confused:

Hopefully right where you left us! :thumbsup: Striving to become a Ninja just because we want to!

I just want to give nuff respect to Aldo and Ajg126 for their experience and insight. But lets not forget this _is_ a game afterall and people play it to have fun. And some people get that fun from playing what they want to play, not by playing what is most effective. I only say this because it seemed this thread was starting to sound like it was trying to discourage people from playing Ninja.

Fair warning is fine, but can you guys supply any positive points about playing Ninja that might encourage younger players who really want to play Ninja? ;)

Thanks guys!

[BobMeisterLlama]

Hmmm...while all this input comparing Ninja to other tanks is great and all, I think the purpose of this thread was to ask whether a Melee Ninja is viable in any way.

[TherosIrn]

ninja/warrior using blink is the best tank in the game hands down, for hate they have dmg(although it is lower then others dmg) and provoke. Blink then does its work and out deos a paladin/warrior tank..

Didn't you mention that with that ninja tanking in your party you had "more then enough mana to heal?", that is exactly what you SHOULD look for in a party.. a tank requiring little mana to heal... allowing CONSTANT pulling and fast exp...

if i misinterpreted what you said sorry but it seems to me that you were just bored because the ninja tank didn't need alot of healing^^

[Aldo]

I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from playing the job, as it has been alot of fun for me and that is one of the reasons I visit this part of the forum, to get others insight and see if I can clarify anything. PLD NIN and WAR are tanks, that cannot be argued, and they all have unique qualities that set them apart form eachother, it all depends on what the leader decides to makeup really.

[BobMeisterLlama]

They should put a disclaimer on the Ninja Forums. "Anything you post here will immediately turn into a Tank discussion."

[Loc]

For some reason, I don't really think ninja was meant to be a tank, I think people just take advantage of blink, casting it over and over when maybe it was only supposed to be used sparingly. When I think of ninja, the last thing I think of is a tank, I think of them as a "behind the line" stealthy damage dealer.

It would be nice if they could possibly change ninja some, perhaps give them alot more attack power, while making blink not quite as powerful, because I'd really love to play as a ninja.....but because it is sooooo gimpy and all it has is blink....it kinda discourages me a little.

[Vivid]

Let me clear up some issues, and hopefully manage to answer all the questions here:

As for the topic's questions, ninjas as damage dealing melee job, it would definately be in your liking to sub thief. Of course, even with the thief sub job, your ninja will not be doing as much damage as, say, a war/mnk. We're weak and quick, but still, even in the long run, you will not contribute a whole lot to the damage factor of the party.

However, there is a way to -maybe- make up for it. It won't be in blink bags, but it'll still be rather expensive. What you'll want to do is buy all the possible elemental ninjutsu powder that you can. During battle, you'll concentrate on using sneak attack (sneak + trick when you're 60+) effectively, and then blast the monster with level 2 ninjutsu (this is 40+) as much as you can. This is the best way to properly title yourself as a damage dealing ninja.

Hope this clears that question up.

As for the other popular debate. NIN/WAR is definately an awesome tank. Bar-none, end-game, done. And yes, being a ninja (when not in a set pt with understanding friends) revolves on your ability to control the income of gil and outgoing of blink bags wisely. Without blink bags/war sub, you are an outcast, simple as that.

To the brave ninjas: nin/thf, nin/etc., good luck to you, the road is long and hard. My only advice is to be vigilant.

-Viv

[BobMeisterLlama]

So NIN/THF uses sneak attack and lvl 2 elemental ninjitsu. Before lvl 40 would you use lvl 1 elemental ninjitsu? Haha, i know it seems like a stupid question, but maybe there's a diff strategy before you get sneak atack and the lvl 2's.

[Aaramis]

Ok, back on topic here :

I think a couple of people are kind of looking for a dual wield combination that isn't forced into a tank role (via blink), but can still contribute to the dps of a party with their melee.
So if you kept NIN main, which combo(s) seems to work for dps?
- /WAR (passive atk up, berserk)
- /THF (sneak/trick atk)
- /RDM (En- buffs + debuffs)
- /DRK (passive atk up, darkness)

Or would it be best to forget NIN main altogether if you wanted melee dps, and go with THF/NIN or WAR/NIN (dual axes)?

[tongyang]

Originally posted by Kirk
But lets not forget this _is_ a game afterall and people play it to have fun. And some people get that fun from playing what they want to play, not by playing what is most effective. I only say this because it seemed this thread was starting to sound like it was trying to discourage people from playing Ninja.

I think posts like this are all good, but one thing that needs to make clear to people that don't play with so called "more effective job combos" - If you don't play with conventional job combos, be prepared to be a leader of the party all the time, and don't expect people to invite you to parties. And even if you're a leader, expect people to remember your name and may not join your parties if you ask again the next day ;)

There are many ways to have fun, but since exp is very hard to come by at later levels, you would want the best job combos as possible. And when you're goofing off with your friends later, you can be whatever you want and have fun at the same time.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by tongyang


I think posts like this are all good, but one thing that needs to make clear to people that don't play with so called "more effective job combos" - If you don't play with conventional job combos, be prepared to be a leader of the party all the time, and don't expect people to invite you to parties. And even if you're a leader, expect people to remember your name and may not join your parties if you ask again the next day ;)

There are many ways to have fun, but since exp is very hard to come by at later levels, you would want the best job combos as possible. And when you're goofing off with your friends later, you can be whatever you want and have fun at the same time.

Just so you dont get the wrong idea, My statement was not referring to trying to play say a wtm/drk and expecting to get to level 70. There are of course combo's like that which any sensible pt leader will stay away from like the plague. What I was referring to was playing a nin/war as opposed to a conventional tank like a pally. Nin/war is probably about as effective a nin combo as you can get. My point was if you really, really want to play a nin/war dont compremise by switching to pal/war just because its easier.

Your statement of having to be leader is correct though. To get a decent pt that can take full advantage of ninja blink ability you almost _have_ to be leader. Fortunaly I enjoy being leader and probably many other ninja's do as well. After all, if they didn;t they probably wouldn't be playing ninja in the first place :biggrin: