How much are we needed in later levels? LVL 60+

[Seance]

Currently at 22, and loving the damage. Is this sustained throughout the higher levels?


Edit: This turned out to be a huge thread and I thank all those who have participated. What I got from this is that, BLM's are the primary insane damage dealers at lower levels. The damage ratio vs mp declines somewhat at higher levels. And that damage can suck when your magic is resisted. Honestly, the long down times when solo-ing, deaths, and hearing this made me dislike blm further, and I've fallen in love with the support jobs of whm and bard.

However, I don't think this thread should discourage anyone from being a blm if you like the job and the role you've been playing in your parties. I've spoken with a few higher lvls friends in-game and it seems that their damage still rocks (although it may not be the best all the time). Don't despair, know your enemies' weaknesses, know your enfeebles, know your role in the party. You'll love the job if it's right for you.

[peacemaker]

Depending on the competition, 61-65 you will start to see less invites, 66+ you will have to start forming your own PTs. At those levels, most ppl generally go for BRD, RDM, WHM for mages, many opt for another RDM or WHM if BRD is not available. If you like getting invites, BRD is the #1 job.

Ancient magic cost around 300-400MP per cast, depending on the spell, and is not often used in level up PT for efficiency.

[Dbossmon]

and these guys dont know that Magic burst can double or tribple the parties damage in a skill chain... But thats because they still dont under stand how it works..


but true as you get higher and higher in levels start making your own group also make groups that compiment your renkie(mp?).. Lead the Group, Take charge of the unintelligent ignorent players and show them how devistating a 60+ BLM can really be.. You should be the one incharge of getting the info on how has what TP abilities and you should Deligate the Order in which the skill chain will be done. Dependin on the mob and weakness and properly done Renkie(mp?) and take down a mob in half the time..


RENKEI & MAGIC BURST FAQ and Guide (http://db.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/final_fantasy_xi_renkei.txt)

[peacemaker]

Frist of all, you need to have this game and have played at least one job to level 60+ in order to answer his question.

And are you trying to say that level 66-70 guys, most of them have been playing this game for well over a year and some have multiple jobs at level 70 doesn't know how renkeis and MBs works?

The reason why it has become this way is, the higher the level, the less the experience you get per fight, and more experience is needed to level up, thus higher efficiency is needed. If there is a RNG or THF in party, those guys alone can do 1000+ dmg as finishing WS in renkei, which also usually kills off the monster by the time the last WS lands. Therefore they don't need the additional damage from BLMs. There are of course different PT formations where BLMs are needed, but in general, the BRD, RDM, WHM mage configuration is preferred at 66+.

I'm not saying BLMs don't get invites at all, but since they become less popular as a party member, you have more BLMs waiting around with their invites on. And if you happen to be playing during peak hours or weekend in Japan or NA with lots of people around your level playing a job thats not so wanted - you realize the immense population of BLMs there are on your server. So, you either wait a long time to hopefully get invited or you make your own PT.

[SmartieKjm]

just curious...can someone explain to me why people would want a red mage?

i have seen red mages in battle...played with red mages....and really i can't see why any party leader would pick a red mage over a white or black mage.

but yet i keep hearing that red mage is like so popular later on...why is this??? he seems to have half the spells a black or white mage has and half the melee power a warrior has...basically he seems half the man other jobs are.

if i was starting a party and i seen a white mage,black mage,red mage all the same level....i just don't see why i would want the red mage at all...the jack of all trades things doesn't impress me...i would rather have someone purely trained in one skill.then a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

anyone care to shed light on my ignorance concerning red mages?

[peacemaker]

RDMs are popular later on because at level 41 they get Refresh, which can refresh the MP of party members. If you get a BRD casting Ballad+Ballad2 and a RDM casting Refresh in PT, its almost like infinite MP, the mages barely have to sit down to rest. Nor does the PLD or DRK.

RDMs also have spells like Dispell which can take away defensive status of monsters - eg. Processaire Crawlers in Boyada, one of the main sources of experience in mid level 60s are much easier killed if their defense status is broken by Dispell, so its more efficient to have a RDM in PT, but a high lvl BLM/RDM can also do the same. It more for Refresh that ppl invite RDMs.

[Seance]

- questions below -

[SmartieKjm]

so basically its a matter of being impatient.

I for one kinda like a little downtime...being a mage i have learned to be more patient...which can be tough partying with warriors who like to attack everything in sight and just run from one enemy to the next.

i like a little pause to gather my thoughts and get everything together strategy wise.

i have been in groups where i was the only black mage and we were still able to get experience chains to 6 constantly if we chose to without much problems.

but i am only at the 26 level...so i am not sure how things work around the 40's...may be a totally different way of doing things.

[Seance]

thanks thanks

[Kirara]

Originally posted by Dbossmon
and these guys dont know that Magic burst can double or tribple the parties damage in a skill chain... But thats because they still dont under stand how it works..


but true as you get higher and higher in levels start making your own group also make groups that compiment your renkie(mp?).. Lead the Group, Take charge of the unintelligent ignorent players and show them how devistating a 60+ BLM can really be.. You should be the one incharge of getting the info on how has what TP abilities and you should Deligate the Order in which the skill chain will be done. Dependin on the mob and weakness and properly done Renkie(mp?) and take down a mob in half the time..


RENKEI & MAGIC BURST FAQ and Guide (http://db.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/final_fantasy_xi_renkei.txt)


please don't use a lame gamefaqs faq and your no game experience comment on peace's level 70 blm life... me and peace are both level 70 blms, we are both elvaan, it was hard for us to get up there. a lot of what peace said is very ture however i believe its a bit exatrorated. not every party can find a ranger. especially now they have blm 2 mb set up parties where the damage dealer land on black mage (or two black mages x 2 = 4 mb)

anyways another reason peace's trouble came from where he live... he live in japan and play japanese hours, and there are a lot blm tarus on that time. therefore if people will pick blm they are usually racist and go for taru. we elvaans don't get picked untill the last (and sometimes that's never)

[Seance]

thanks~

[Andry]

spoke to a 69 taru blm on ragnarok...

he said high performance parties rely on BLM/RDM/BRD, with the RDM healing, and told me not to worry...

nearing 30, so i've been contemplating rolling a RDM/BLM, but speaking to him's semi convinced me to stay BLM/WHM

edit: oh, he mentioned something about WHM/RDM/BRD being true before some patch...

[FF Fan]

RDM's abilities will really shine when he gets refresh and phalanx.

Like as peacemaker said, there will be very little down time at all with bard's ballet 1 and 2. This is a major plus point because XP will keep flowing in.

If you think PLD are the best tankers, you have not seen a RDM with phalanx.

Well, with these abilities and others like an occasional cure, many parties would prefer RDM. However, the path taken is very difficult because pior to that RDM is highly unpopular. (Phalanx is a lvl 33 spell but you are unlikely to get it at that lvl unless you have completed BCNM50 or have 240,000 gil) I believe you know the reason why as RDM are seen as a "watered down" warrior (with no provoke) and fairly competence mages (with less MP).

[evilution]

I was a little worried being a BLM but then i remember i have a set group of 6 people i play with every day so it is no biggy.

Our party is:

1 Galka PLD/WAR
1 Galka DRG/WAR (SAM once we hit 60)
1 Elvaan Bard/WHM
1 Taru BLM/WHM
1 Taru BLM/RDM
1 Taru WHM/SUM

Just hit 48 this weekend (my RDM sub is 30) chain pulling IT's in crawlers nest..

the level 50 break quest is a pain in the butt BTW.. getting all 6 of our members peices is a nightmare... Almost done tho.

Anyhow, we hear resists can be a problem after 60? Even with MB?

Right now depending on what we are fighting me and the other BLM usually burst with Waterga II, Fire II, or Blizzard II and then (thnx Fast Cast) i can get in a 2nd burst of Fire I or Blizzard I in the same renkei effect.

So what your saying is we will have problems? because even with our crappy level 30 gear we can still get #4 EXP chains off IT's.

[peacemaker]

Kirashi is right, its not that bad, its the first group of people who were stuck on 65 for a while before they released 70 who got it worst. If BSTs can get to 70, BLMs can definitely get to 70. It can be boring at times waitng hours for no invite, but persistence does pay off.

By the time most of the NA players get to level 65, NA peak hours will be just as crowded as JST peak hours.

As for BLM/RDM/BRD pt, if you weren't a BLM and you were in that group, you already have BRD and RDM, who would you invite next? A WHM so in case someone dies and there are no other WHMs around the area, that person doesn't have to lose hours of experience? Or a BLM because the PT can kill the monsters 30 seconds faster but if someone dies, oops, here's Raise ONE ...? Especially if you are leader, do you want to be responsible for looking for a WHM not in your PT should someone dies in the middle of nowhere?

You won't have too much problems with MBs, but you will just see some of the melee's WSes become much stronger than magic. You will still be dealing damage, but its more like icing on the cake.

At the end of the day, if you enjoy the job now, just stick with it until it starts to suck for you. All jobs have its ups and downs throughout the levels. And for many people, after playing through 60 levels of any job and got your full AF, you'd probably want a change anyway. The way the game plays now may be very different after a few Updates.

[evilution]

Thanks for the info.

I see what you mean about melee weapon skills comming of age. Our dragoon got level 49 last night and pentathrust...

Now our paladin is convinced he will be a fine tank as a WAR/SAM for the rest of our 50-70 levels because every time our DRG hits penta the paladin cry's at his damage output.

[peacemaker]

WAR/SAM is sweet, almost all WARs sub SAM at higher levels, it was quite a scene seeing like a thousand SAMs leveling up to sub WAR when the job was first released. PLD gets a tiny bit quiet in some 60s level, then get popular again at later 60s. But that may have already changed, when I was leveling 61-65, it was a totally different experience calculation system.

WAR is very popular as well, they get a level 66(?) or 68(?) WS, forgot which level it comes, thats really useful.

[evilution]

So do you think a WAR/SAM would be an acceptable tank in place of a PLD/WAR?

He is a Galka.. so his MP pool is hurting and his damage output is nothing to write home about.. It just seems to me that heals are alot better at grabbing agro than a little bit more damage (since if he did go war/sam he would not be able to use the agressive abilities since he would be the "tank")

[peacemaker]

I think it really depends on what kind of job he prefers to play - defensive vs. offensive (and which AF he likes better), both are solid jobs and will get decent invites at most levels. There are benefits to each - having a high level PLD is great for BCNMs and HNM hunting. Having a high level WAR/SAM is versatile for PT renkeis and leveling up most other melee jobs. And a Galka is perfect for either job. Really depends on what his priorities are. I wouldn't worry much about the MP, thats what the mages are for.

[maelin]

i've been in the 40s for about a week now and i can really see a major decline in my damage contribution from earlier levels.

thieves for example, with triple attack and sneak attack put into their weapon skill have been doing 400~500 damage on a regular basis. when we do a ws chain and if i magic burst with water 2 he does his 400~500 damage and i magic burst for 200.

i'm poor and haven't really bought all my ga spells but i'm told ga and ancient spells do a lot of damage when magic bursted.

but for me atm the class' appeal has declined significantly. not only do blmages have to worry about keeping up damage but we have to worry about agro management. in a fight with few resists, i can probably do as much if not a bit more then any one melee in the group atm. but if fire 2 or water 2 starts getting resisted and put out 12 dmg a piece then my contribution to the fight diminishes quickly. and it's hard to compensate without pulling agro or just depleting your mana. i see thieves crit normal attacks for 200+ damage and then ws for 400+ and they don't seem to ever pull agro. i just don't like that idea.

personally i'd like to see the agro of higher level spells slightly reduced and magic burst should have a greater multiplier. the most i've seen water 2 do is about low 150 at my level. when magic bursted the most i've seen is about 200. that is a 30% increase.

[aznsky]

I get many invites sometimes. Sometimes it's too many.

Sure DRK's and Rangers can do more damage then us. BUT you are missing the fact that BLM's do more constant stream of damage then those jobs because they have to use Job Skills ETC... in order to do more damage while we just can cast away until our mana is out.

But over all BLM's can TOTAL more damage then DRK's and Rangers.

[Kirara]

they use their ws you use your mp... same thing, and the question was how much is blm needed after 60, i doubt you are there yet, there's big differences

[Seance]

Very interesting indeed.

[Seance]

Maelin, you said that at lvl 40ish you were doing significantly less damage. Are you a taru-rian by chance?

[aznsky]

they use their ws you use your mp... same thing, and the question was how much is blm needed after 60, i doubt you are there yet, there's big differences
__________________________________________________ __

Okay 1st of all. It takes time to use the Full potential of a wp.
Even with a samurai.

Also remember what i said? BLM's do a constant stream of major damage.

Casting time is much shorter then just waiting for your Tp to go up.

Also it takes time to build up your skill with a sword and such.

while magic doesn't all you need is MP and your knowledge of what element to cast.

[peacemaker]

Originally posted by aznsky
they use their ws you use your mp... same thing, and the question was how much is blm needed after 60, i doubt you are there yet, there's big differences
__________________________________________________ __

Okay 1st of all. It takes time to use the Full potential of a wp.
Even with a samurai.

Also remember what i said? BLM's do a constant stream of major damage.

Casting time is much shorter then just waiting for your Tp to go up.

Also it takes time to build up your skill with a sword and such.

while magic doesn't all you need is MP and your knowledge of what element to cast.

What level are you? You shouldn't be doing a constant stream of damage after level 40, that means your party has to wait for you to recover MP and lose chain. If you think spells are easy to come by, wait til you have to save up 800k for a basic elemental spell or try to hunt down some HNM in Zhval for Firega3.

[lesuaine]

Can you guys confirm Maelins story about thieves doing 400-500 damage and him only bursting for 200 around level 40? If so BLMs are pathetic and I have just wasted the last two weeks of my life on a pathetic class that will never amount to more than a weak damage dealer with a very very finite source of energy to draw upon.

Do these developers of games not understand the concept of BALANCE! Melee, most health, most damage. Casters least health, least damage. They seem to think the only worthwhile casters are those that keep melee alive with heals/status effects.

It seems Baldur's Gate will be one of the few rpgs where they recognize the power of mages. I think it is time to go take out my frustration on Firekraag with a few timestops and meteors.

If you ask me nobody who has not reached the end game should not be allowed to post on message boards about how a class is. I foolishly took the advice of somebody who was probably level 5 and amazed that water was doing 20 damage.

[peacemaker]

40-50, regular black magic attack power starts to decline, but 50+, there is ancient magic. Problem with ancient magic is that it takes up a lot of MP (300+) and is not often used in level up PT because of this inefficiency. 60+, rich RNGs and THFs can do 1000+ damage WS in renkei, and BLMs do MBs (not ancient magic) averaging around 500-900, depending on effectiveness of renkei.

Actually, the BLM class in FFXI is not so different from many other FF series. In most FF games, the black mage starts off strong, but later on the summoners take over with summons that do insane damage. Right now, summoners can't do that kind of damage yet, but level 70 summons get special abilities, which enhances them significantly. And after the 75 patch, with new spells, weapons, abilities, and new WS, its hard to say how the balance of jobs will become.

[zark]

i really wish i had never read this post... it has made me want to log in and delete my BLM... all the high lvlers saying BLM is basically useless at high level, thats just great - why am i wasting my time with this class?

so we're not wanted in ANY groups at high level? so basically, what is the point of being a BLM if we are pretty much outdamaged and useless to a group?


what am i missing here... i always thought we were good damage dealers and generally wanted in end game play :/

[Silkiv]

well I wouldn't know yet...
When I read the getting the higher smn's avatars they advise having 2 blm/whm in the group.

Higher lvl blms can still get gil fairly fast by using area spells (waterga, etc) in lower level areas. Training a large group of monsters and then letting them all die in 2 or so -ga spells.

If a monster had a high physical def and physical evasion but a low magic def then I'm hoping Blms are needed. Either way using ancestral magic, ninja's elemental powders, or getting a bard with thernodies would help, by lowering the enemies elemental resistance.

I really hope there are some monsters that blm would be a must.

[peacemaker]

No, no, don't get me wrong. Its not like BLMs become totally useless, the class just becomes less popular than it used to be in earlier levels. Although the ideal high level mage lineup is BRD, RDM, WHM, often not all parties can get all of those 3 jobs in one party, then they go invite the SMNs or BLMs.

BLMs are still useful for other things ike BCNMs or HNM hunting at high levels. The job can still be fun, it just takes more effort and patience to level up.

[Tsama]

Ok, I have been thinking about a little combination.

This one I think would make me kind of wanted later on, I was thinking Blm/Nin or Blm/Rdm I am going either of those 2 I was thinking about Blm/whm but I need the attacks of the Rdm, and the Phlanx is kind of kickass.

I am just wondering what do you guys think about those 3.

I really want to do the BLM/RDM or the BLM/NIN

oh well.

[Tsama]

Oh yeah Peacemaker I have just one question for you, what is your total playtime. I am just dieing to know.

[peacemaker]

Only 2 BLM combos are useful in PT as an effective member. When you are not partying, you can sub anything you want.

BLM/WHM - the standard
BLM/RDM - for fast cast and dispell (mid to high level 60s)

If you like having varying sub jobs and still be a decent member in PT, RDM or BRD might be better job choices.


Tsama>> my total game play time I havent checked in a while, but my real-time play time, since May 2002.

[Tsama]

OMG I didn't even know the game was out then. I so need to read up on this game more, Hmm.... I have to make some major lvling.

Ok now I have one more question. Are there still things out there that you fight that are challenging and that you need a party for?

I am only 17 so I am not sure. Right now I am still being raped alot. So I am wonder about the later time.

Damn that is over a yr and a half.

Just out of curiousity what do you do know, you can't make any more lvls until they drop the next patch you can't get any more spells. So what do you do? I know you have had some kickass parties. But I am wondering just what you do.

Oh and one more thing.
How long did it take you to make it to 70?

[peacemaker]

Yea, PS2 version came out in May last year, and Windows version in Nov or something.

The higher level your blm, the less things you can fight alone that are almost the same as your level or higher, actually even the ones that say they are easy can kill you sometimes cause they won't bind and will interrupt casting.

Generally you don't die much later on, if you party with experienced players, but that goes for all levels.

While waiting for level cap break (next one is "final", as Square says), you can try to get new spells (some late 60 spells are very hard to get), new equip, hunt HNMs, or change jobs. Can't really compare my level up process to new players cause of level caps. It will be the 5th one to be broken next week.

[Tsama]

Well one day I will get to lvl70 hopefully. What I think though is that they need to release more spells for later lvls. I mean something. It seems like once you get that high you don't get anything else.

Which kind of sucks.

That is something I would like to see, and you being able to use a World pass to go to another server without losing your Character. I haven't used one yet but my friend told me you start over whenever you do.

Hmm... Peacemaker what was the origional top lvl that they had setup?

I think they will raise it again. Becauese if the game stays up for let's say another yr. Then you will have a crap load of people stuck at 75. Which is no good, no one will want to play as much.

So I think they will raise it again. Just to apease people.

[Zenyx]

The blm's at 40 only doing 200dmg seems to be because his spells are pretty outdated, Water2 is a lvl 30 blm spell. I have done 277+ with Blizzaga in MB's and that's only a lvl 32 spell. I'm pretty sure that if he had lvl 40 spells he would be doing lvl 40ish damage. He should be using Stonega II at lvl 40, I bet with that spell he would be close to the 400-500 range on a MB also.

[evilution]

Well I can say that at 53 (almost 54 now) my group has 2 BLM and we are TEARING mobs to peices still. We both manaburst Tornado every other monster for ~1100 damage each and our (non ideal group setup) is still able to get exp chain #5's off IT con monsters.

The key for us is Bard debuffs. Without the debuff on the monster they resist about 20% of their "vulnterable" type magics, or 90%+ of their "resistant" type. But with a bard debuff we can nuke a "Earth" monster with Stone III for max damage every time.

Also MB with ancient magic is more efficient that I thought it would be, our passive MP saving skill kicks in enough to make me happy and the downtime between the last #5 exp chain kill and the next pull (to start a new chain) is usually under 60 seconds.

BUT, we can do this because we play with the same 6 people every day. Coordination is key, MB anicent magic in a pick up group could be a nightmare.

[Zenyx]

Evilution,

I'm curious how you setup the MB's for Tornado, do you wait for the melee to have tp, and then you start Tornado with a macro like this?

/ma "Tornado" <t>
/wait 10
/p Start WS's now!

I've been looking at the ancient magic for abit and that's about the only way I can figure out how to MB with such long cast times (Tornado says it's an 18 second cast time)

Is that what you do?

[evilution]

/target <stnpc>
/ma Tornado <lastst>
/p Starting Tornado
/wait 8
/p <Melee name> Start skill chain NOW <call1>

spells cast at 75%

I'm a RDM sub so I start my cast about 1.5 seconds after the BLM/WHM starts his cast so both our bursts hit at the same time.

I smile every time we do it tho. Helm beatles go from 90% health to dead :)

[Zenyx]

Ah, I did not know that spells cast at 75% I should pay attention to that bar more often. Thanks ^^

Still abit till I get to 50 but closing in on it, although I need to spend some time leveling my sub now.

[evilution]

and to emphisize the difference a BARD makes.

if the Bard forgets to debuff tornado usually bursts for about 500 =/

a good bard is the key to higher level exp more or less (melee accuracy song, debuffs, and great mp regen)

[caramelmania]

Seance,thx for send me message,but my reply may too late.
(I was doing our mission..didn't check this board)

One day I talk with NA version's WHM taru.
We talked about Squareenix's Ver'up (or down?)run‚“ to an extreme.It is tooo much.

Yes,Peacemaker,RDM is must person on group.but u know,It was after Feb's(?) Ver up.
I was very grad to know that,cause I have high skill RDM(Elv)friend together since we were lvl 6 or so,and WHM(Hum)Friend too.(They are now lvl 70 both)
RDM friend had too hard time....for nearly one year.

After that,BLM had hard time,Peacemaker,you know.

Everything may change,I can't imagine BLM when Seance get over lvl 60.
But now,Getting better.FFXI is team play game,BLM's role is glowing after 10/21's Ver.up.Yes,not just waiting invite,u have to sometimes make group yourselves.(And make party good for you :) This is fun)
And If you(new ppl) want to give big damage by spells,be a BLM,RDM's damage by cast spell is smaller than BLM,My friend RDM always complain me.RDM is good for supprt group,especially after lvl 41 and get Refresh.
But RDM is very good for soloing,even on lvl 70,BLM is not,choose which u like.

As lvl68BLM, I can work in a group,even Skillchain's Damage is bigger after lvl 60, Magic Burst's damage is also big,we BLM is needed,(Peacemaker,You know The boyarda tree's crowler or Gustaf's bone)

And,new ppl now..mostly NA version's ppl do warrier or dark knight or like that,so all Mage will be less.I guess mage will more invited.

But for all BLM and who want to BLM,I have to give warning....Ancient spell is no use.Too long cast time and too much MP cost.

Excuse me my respons is hard to understand.....I'm so sleepy,I will correct If any mistakes.This reply must be complicated...
zzzzzz....:zzz:

[Merlinian]

This is quite disappointing, I was under the impression that BLM are needed in all groups lateron because of the damage output. :(

Anyhow, I guess I will level my Taru BLM/WHM up but I will get the BRD advanced job quest done, just in case so I have options lateron. On my servers there are not may bards at all, os that maybe an option to improve your PT eligibility. :thumbsup:

On Fairy the number of melees is just staggering and I was always wondering what all these guys gonna do lateron, seems like I was gravely mistaken and not they but myself will be sitting, LFG.


Merlinian

[Zenyx]

Like Caramelmania was saying all the melee that NA people started will most likely change who the desired people are since there seems to be significantly less NA mages than melee.

Also patches make big changes on the desirability of classes, and we're fixing to get another big one, so it's possible that BLM will be up there once again.

[Coinspinner]

After grouping in Qufim I'm come to realize that Melee characters outnumber mage/bard characters nearly three to one. BLM and Bard seem to be the rarest, apart from Summoner, which most NA players won't bother taking above 15 or so as a support job option, or else for having fun with the radioactive rabbit.

[MadCatXXX]

I just reached level 50 (and still stuck there, damn all the liches of Eldieme!) so I can give some impressions.

The obvious thing is that we are not decisive damage dealers anymore.

With Drain, low level elemental magic (for hate purpose), Thunder 2 here and there, and MBs I can add a steady stream of damage. Its helps speed the kill and the flow of xp. But it is nothing compared to what a THF or a RNG can do. THF Viper Bite+WS+Yokodama=650-700dmg, Me MBing with Thunder 2=350dmg.

I debuff with elemental debuffs only (Bio2 way to costly on mana). I never grouped with a BRD so this is the only way I found to not have my debuffs resisted.

I also help the WHM heal so that he can finish the fight with around the same amount of mp as me, no downtime. The RDM does what RDMs do best: convert, pump mana to everybody.

The RDM and I (and to a lesser extent the WHM if he/she has BLM as a SUB) put the adds to sleep (Sleepga>>Sleep2) and I handle the Escape when things go really bad.

At the end of the xping session, I send everybody back to HP (Jeuno, heh) with Warp 2.

I noticed that even though I still have very few problems finding a PT, it takes somehow longer than before on average.

So yes, I am still a very fine addition to any PT, but I am not as necessary as a WHM, a BRD or a RDM.

EDIT: Grouped with a BRD for the first time...and WOW ! RDM+BRD>WHM if you dont need Raise 2 (we had no WHM in the PT).

[progenitor]

My own impressions:

I am a Blm/Whm and just finished leveling the next 7 levels of whm, so that I can level another 14 Blm without switching back and forth. Last night, I am brought into a group not for my Blm, but my WHM.

I fullfill the role of secondary healer and occasional MB when I haven't just cast cure II on someone. And then the Whm left and I was the sole healer. ( I still impress myself when I manage to play the role of healer and quickly switch over to catch a MB. )

Last night was the first time that I hadn't capped Elemental, Dark and Enfeeble magics when I reached next level. Mostly because I wasn't using my blm skills.

There was a Thf, Sam, Rdm and War that all pounded on the mob while I made sure they stayed alive. But I wasn't play much of a Blm. The XP was great, we were chaining to 5 but I wasn't really a Blm.

When I logged, a feeling of dread came over me that that is what I had to look forward to - second class healer.

-p

[Meriadoc]

/me wouldn't worry about finding a party as a BLM later on. Mages in general usually don't have too many problems from what I understand.
I heard Drk is more difficult when looking for a pt

Keep in mind people are racist in game.. (Ie: who the heck wants an elvaan blm when they can grab a taru blm?)

[peacemaker]

caramelmania, I agree, RDMs had had a rough time for long time until Refresh came along. BLM was a great job up til a couple months ago. I can kind of understand Square Enix's logic though - when WHM/BLM can cast Dezone2 and BLM/RDM can cast Refresh, things can get quite complicated. Only way they can resolve those problems are making those 2 spells main job specific. They are going to have to do it one way or another, they can't keep the 75 cap on for too long.

[Silverquick]

What would happen if... the lowered the cost of using Ancient Magics by say 100 points?

[Zenyx]

I'm kinda curious what lvl 75 blm's will use once they get there. The reason is that I would guess that blm's will get these spells (just going from how the pattern is upto 70)
71 - Aero IV
72 - Fire IV
73 - Blizzaga III
74 - Blizzard IV
75 - Thunder IV

Anyhow Blizzaga III should cost about 302mp which is very similiar to Freeze (307mp), so I'm curious if lvl 73 Blm's will use Blizzaga III or Freeze? Blizzaga III should probably cast in the range of 7-8 seconds so it'll cast faster, but it kinda seems like Freeze may actually do a little more damage? Just going off of how stuff seems to scale with the mp costs, and how the mp costs seem to be scaling with level.

Or maybe Blm's will ignore Blizzaga III also? and Just use the other IV's?

If levels continue to raise eventually the regular magic will cost the same as the ancient magic, and then it will be really odd. Because it will be like you got a level 80-90ish spell at level 50-60. And the Ga's will pass the ancient magic up eventually if the cap continues to raise.

[Kirara]

you get a 4 spell every 2 levels........... D:/
and if the rest 4s are as hard as it is to get water4, i am going to slaughter someone ŽE‚·?I

[Zenyx]

Oh ya it does take that pattern there at the end, so I guess blm's still won't have all IV's at 75, so It should go:
71 - Blizzaga III
72 - Aero IV
73 - Thundaga III
74 - Fire IV
75 - Stonega IV

And most likely Thundaga III will cost 327mp+ (Burst 352 so a little more there)

And Stonega IV (probably 352+mp) will actually cost more than Quake (337mp) most likely

Wonder if people will use the Ga's?

[KaggeR]

Ok, General Question. I don't have the game yet, but I'm eye the NA PS2 version. I was considering black mage, or an attacker (not together). I think a black mage would be great, but if I put gosh knows how many hours into the game, and end up being not wanted...I think that would stink. But, considering during the week (I'm in highschool) I get about 1 hour to 1 hour and a half of play time, It would be a while before I got that far to be "unwanted"

peace, did you form your own party?

If anyone can clear up some worries, it would be greatly appreciated. I think this game, and being a black mage sounds fun.

[MidgardPlas]

this was just posted at allakhazam...what do you lvl 70 guys think about it? his reasoning sounds good, but i can't really tell because i'm still only lvl 30. i really, really want what he says to be true, but i'd like to know if he's just pulling everybody's leg.

thanks
To all you BLMS: NO ONE CAN REPLACE THE DMG YOU DO AND IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DEFEAT ANY ENDGAME MONSTER, LIKE A BEHEMOTH NOT MAGIC BURSTING ATLEAST 3 or 4 times...

I have 3 lvl 70 jobs and so many subs...


Here are the facts

1. RDMS are ONLY useful for REFRESH... They like to brag they can tank somewhat because of phalanx cause they were so useless the rest of their career. You CANNOT replace a PAL/provo subjob tank class... many monsters ignore defense and dispel...

2. You DO NOT NEED refresh and ANY LVL 70 PT will accept a BRD OVER A RDM... Having a RDM in your pt is ONLY for xp purposes.. refresh and a brd's balad keeps mp near full.. once you reach lvl 70 and XP isnt a factor anymore or lvl 65 for that matter and you begin to participate in high end game encounters.. YOU NEED SERIOUS DMG SERIOUSLY FAST...

3. Let me tell you something about thf skill chains .. because I AM a lvl 70 thf... i have many subs avaiable i use ninja though mainly for tp purposes... That misinformed, UN-experienced RDM makes it sound as if RENKEI's come every fight... whats FUNNIER is that hes speaking of THF's using renkei's... lol... OK, UNLESS you ARE USING your A grade wep (dagger) you WONT GET MUCH TP PER STRIKE, YOU NEED TO DUAL WIELD, BUT THIS CAUSES your DMG TO BE LOW... you can RENKEI EVERY OTHER MONSTER... Im almost certain that little nub is use to a typical chain 2 or 3 skill chain... and not a 6 or 7

4. Misinformed/in-experienced nub has his jobs all backward... THE BEST OFFENSIVE CASTER = BLM/RDM ... you use RDM for magic attack up and faster casting... HE reports that BLMS have low enfeebling magic... lol .. thats ONLY because whatever particular BLM hes talking about doesnt use enfleebling magic often... What kind of statement is that to make.. thats like saying RDM aren't adept enfleebling as well.. the argument works both ways...


5. MULTIPLE BLM's CAN burst off eachother for dmg that is UNEQUALED by ANY other renkei.. A BLM/RDM can BURST off himself with faster casting using 2 spells of the same element.. one just a lower version of the first provided he has good macros...

Don't let some misinformed, 0 potential, part of the herde poster influence you... Hes a RDM.. Hes angry because perhaps he got few invites, perhaps he didnt like his avg performance... and what hes doing is trashing on BLM's with his ONLY strength... REFRESH.. Phalanx tanking is retarded once you fight ANY 65 + mob ESPECIALLY an end game encounter.. its not even an option... In his little goblin dreamworld though, for now, it is...

BOTTOM LINE: ANY ELITE GROUP, LINKSHELL, PT WILL HAVE OR WANT 2 <----- BLM's for MB'ing OFF eachother... Remember: ANY ancient spell used to MB is MORE THAN ANY SINGLE SKILL PERFORMED AND WHEN MB'd OF THE FIRST MB (becausae you can burst of another burst) the dmg is ALMOST MULTIPLIED... its a joke... If you ever make it to lvl 70 on carbuncle as a BLM, you shoudl already know wtf im talking about... if not and your deprived, msg Fistandantilus on Carbuncle... Ill Make a pt and show you

[evilution]

BOTTOM LINE: ANY ELITE GROUP, LINKSHELL, PT WILL HAVE OR WANT 2 <----- BLM's for MB'ing OFF eachother... Remember: ANY ancient spell used to MB is MORE THAN ANY SINGLE SKILL PERFORMED AND WHEN MB'd OF THE FIRST MB (becausae you can burst of another burst) the dmg is ALMOST MULTIPLIED... its a joke... If you ever make it to lvl 70 on carbuncle as a BLM, you shoudl already know wtf im talking about... if not and your deprived, msg Fistandantilus on Carbuncle... Ill Make a pt and show you


I'm a newb and have no clue what he is refering to here =/ What does he mean burst off each other? My regular PT has 2 BLM and we both burst with Tornado, but what is this "burst off a burst" Cuz all we get is

Slott casts Tornado on XXXX
Magic Burst! XXX Recevies 1088 damage
Evilution casts Tornado on XXX
Magic Burst! XXX Receives 1091 damage

but never burst >off< a burst =/ please explain

[Zenyx]

I've never heard of bursting off a burst either?

[Tsama]

Ok...

First how much of a Noob are you if your Casting Tornado?

Let's say there are 2blm in my Party. I cast Stone and then the other casts Stone, and then I got Stonega and then he goes Stonega. I am pretty sure that it increases the Attack Points. I have done that little thing with a friend I play with alot we both have a Macro set up for it. It works kind of nice.

That is what I believe he means. But I could be wrong.

[evilution]

Originally posted by Tsama
Ok...

First how much of a Noob are you if your Casting Tornado?

Let's say there are 2blm in my Party. I cast Stone and then the other casts Stone, and then I got Stonega and then he goes Stonega. I am pretty sure that it increases the Attack Points. I have done that little thing with a friend I play with alot we both have a Macro set up for it. It works kind of nice.

That is what I believe he means. But I could be wrong.

ya lost me =/

[Zenyx]

Me too, I have never noticed multiple same spells or a spell progression causing the damage to be higher.

[Tsama]

I have done it and I have seen more damage. Not 2 ^ 10 worth. But I have seen more damage. Try it. See what happens.

[evilution]

are you talking about a double burst at the end from the same mage?

IE: Distortion effect chain is done

You cast Blizzard 2 and MB with it
Then you imidiately cast Blizzard 1 and MB with it as well?

I can pull that off sometimes but the other BLM in my group can not (I'm RDM sub and spells take effect at 65% for me.. so i have more leeway)

And the burst from the blizzard 1 is usually not even worth the trouble because if the 2nd tank in the chain goes late you can miss the 1st MB but still have the effect take place =/

[Zenyx]

If you're talking about non mb's then I think you're just seeing differences in resists, I have pt'd with blm's before and that's all that is, sometimes you will be higher and sometimes you will be lower. In fact last night I was in a pt with 3 blm's, and we were all casting blizzard (killing beetles in crawlers nest), there was no consistent amount of damage being added to our spells and we were all casting at about the same time.

[peacemaker]

Originally posted by KaggeR


peace, did you form your own party?

If anyone can clear up some worries, it would be greatly appreciated. I think this game, and being a black mage sounds fun.

I rarely formed level up parties before level 66, as least not with people I don't know. But now I have to because I don't have time to sit around for 5-6 hours and get no invites.

As long as you are willing to take on the responsibility of being a leader and your reputation doesn't suck, you take any job to level cap.

[Kirara]

Originally posted by peacemaker


I rarely formed level up parties before level 66, as least not with people I don't know. But now I have to because I don't have time to sit around for 5-6 hours and get no invites.

As long as you are willing to take on the responsibility of being a leader and your reputation doesn't suck, you take any job to level cap.

that responsibility SUXOR
but then again... i made 80% of the pt i am in D;/

[peacemaker]

Luckily all those lvl 70 auto-leaders will be back for genkai 5 - if I can manage to find the time to play before they dissapear again.

[Shananiginz]

Im a pre-n00b (havent got the game yet, hurry up time and space, i want Christmas!) but i dont think we would be that useless at high lvls, i mean the only real reason red mages are chosen is for refresh, but if you sub red for blm then you get refresh as well as all your destruction and fire, plus some spells blm's dont get, like gravity and the dias and cures.

But even without those people will still want the sheer damage output blms provide, rangers and warriors and dragoons may do tons of damage in one shot but that shot takes a while to use, but blms can dish it up nonstop until they run out of mana. plus blms can add TONS of damage to renkais by magic bursting flare and the like so i think we will be used quite frequently at high lvls.

[Andry]

1) Refresh is level 41 for the rdm. Unless they up the cap to 82, BLMs won't get it.

2) Chaincasting till you have no MP is bad. Means huge downtime.

3) Ancient spells eat mucho MP. also bad unless you're MBing.

[Shananiginz]

Huh, coulda sworn refresh was a lvl 23 ability but oh well like i said, newb...

And knowing my style of playing other games (keep firing until even my party stops twitching) i prolly would catch tons of aggro doing that, and get killed almost instantly...

[Xeross]

Seems to me that blm just got a VERY nice boost with the new lvl 4 spells.(Aero, Fire, Blizzard, Thunder)

Sounds tasty since now you guys can cast high level spells that correspond with the weakness of the enemy.

[KaggeR]

As I have said, I know hardly anything about this game, and want to learn more. When you say 5-6 hours to join a party, I wonder, how long does the party last. I mean, after the night is over, do you go on and get a new one. Or do parties carrie over. I know 6 people can be in a party, and I'm just confused.

If I were to join Party X at night, and have to get off an hour later, will my spot in the party be there next time ie get back?


Thanks,

KaggeR

[Tsama]

Ok, to the guy that said, he kill Fire until everything is dead. I am not going to recommend that, becuase you doing that will do just one thing. It will make it so that you are dead really soon.

Trust me on this one, it took me a while to learn this, expecially once you start to get spells like, Waterga, Stonega. Or anything like that.

Those spells hit in an Area, so let's say you are fighting a Yagudo, and there are 2 other ones in it's area. Then you just hit all of those. The really crappy thing is that when you do that, you attack everything so they all come after YOU. So now you are fighting 3 things while your party is still working on the first one.

So you just might be dead. You also have to learn to slow down your Casting for a couple reasons, one MP conservation (<<-- == less down time) Two to much Agro, which will really piss your Warrior and Whm off, because the Whm is going to start healing you and now she/he is taking damage. So now you got your WHM dead, because it started healing you and drew Agro. So now your whm is dead your warrior is pissed, your about to die, and soon after your warriors will be dead.

Then the next thing to happen will be you will be getting kicked from your party for not knowing how to party.

^^^^^ Learned from exp and from seeing it happen.


So you have to control how much hate you take, another reason you don't want to cast like crazy is Magic Burst when you do them you will have to cast and if your casting like crazy you will probably miss when it is your time to do one. So then your Screwed on that, and have screwed your party out of a good chain.

BLM and WHM are 2 jobs that you have to more think what you are doing then just doing, for every spell you cast you have to think about how it is going to affect the rest of the party.

Now to the guy that said if you wait around for 6 hrs and get into a party and then leave will you spot be saved. I will answer that like this, it kind of depends on a couple things.

One how good you are. If you are just an average player at your Job, then probably not. But if you are a kickass guy that knows your job really well then you will possibly have a spot.

I

[caramelmania]

Hello.

I said Ancient spells no use,but now we got a time,

lvl70 ppl all goes to Quest to be over 70,me still lvl 68 is too.
Yes, kill "someone".using Ancient spells.

Damage was,at 1st time,(I lost)My Flood?@was 260(resisted)
If it was full,I've heard the damage is 500~600.

But I guess I'll not use these spells after lvl 70's lvling group,
cause BLM's way is

cast-not earn hate over who has Provoke,-cast-sometime support healers-cast-.....Not to attacked,If so, you easiry die.

hmm----I'm so sorry always my words are not enough in English, plz keep it secret to JP ppl /blush

[Arguile]

I'm a 34blm and i chain cast spell after spell after spell most of the time.

I do this for 2 reasons, 1)I'm an elvaan blm, at lvl 34 with my current equipment i have 523hp. I wont die in 2 or 3 or 4 or even 5 hits.

2)The monsters you're fighting are all INC tough....meaning there resistances are usualy retardedly high. Ok, so you can hit a "too weak to be worthwhile" monster with your Water II spell for 164dmg..wow right? Now cast it on that Siege Bat...wait, it only did 34 dmg...now cast again...oh, it did 134dmg.

You see, out of 10 spells cast chances are 4-5 of them will do peddly damage as the monsters insanely high MIND score resists most of the dmg. And if you do hit 2-3 times in a row for 150+dmg spells, chill for a few seconds and provokers get aggro back and cast a few weaker nukes.

If you are a Taru blm, DONT chain cast. Just don't. They will and can and most often do die in 2-3hits. This is when race comes into play.

[Andry]

regarding the above post...

chaincasting spells, regardless of race is a bad idea. as an elvaan, you'll have less MP than a taru, resulting in more downtime, killing your ability to do chains.

taking hits. you'll take more damage than your tanks due to lower defense. you'll be sucking up the WHM's power too. learn to control your hate instead of chaincasting.

IT mobs and resists. That's why you have to learn what types of mobs are weak to what spells. Bats are only weak to light, however.

edit: I don't die in 2-3 hits to a low IT.

[Oompa]

Being fairly new to the game, and quickly raising to mid levels as a 26BLM/11WHM, I do a LOT of chain-casting myself. Yeah, as a Taru it's a horrible idea, and I usually get hit once or twice, but most the time my party is really good about keeping the aggro on them and voking when needed, but on the off chance I get hit, I can usually take one good hit before I run like a little girl, and which time I'm trying to hide in the corner and heal myself.

Anyway, chain nuking isn't for everyone, and I don't recommend it. However, I party with good people that know my style of play, and can easily anticipate my every move, so it's not usually a problem.

As for unpredictable hits, I deal with the same issues on most IT mobs. It's really irritating to be honest...

[Fippish]

You see, out of 10 spells cast chances are 4-5 of them will do peddly damage as the monsters insanely high MIND score resists most of the dmg. And if you do hit 2-3 times in a row for 150+dmg spells, chill for a few seconds and provokers get aggro back and cast a few weaker nukes.

As I posted in the other thread, if a good deal of your spells are doing poor damage, you're playing bad. Bottom line, there is NO excuse for nuking under 50% max more than once on a mob. If you are casting on the monster's weakness (Which you should do EXCLUSIVELY on mobs after you get thunder - referring to nukes only) you should be testing for weakness, and as soon as it does under 50%, you know it's not a weakness element.

I'm gonna add a line to my Sig now, too many of these threads going around

And BTW Bats are also weak to wind.

[Arguile]

If my spells do bad dmg i'm playing my blm badly? LOL

Funny...too funny.

At lvl 46 i out-damage any other blm i've ever seen. I have better equipment than any other blm my lvl i've seen. Elvaan RSE armor gives INT bonuses for every piece but legs. So please, don't speak when you're talking shit.

It's all nice until lvl 40ish when your spells can and will get resisted. I have not seen ONE single blm in the crawlers nest, during my lvling there, land every one of his spells to full effect.

In fact, a great BLM there will land full effect spells roughly 70% of the time. My INT score is higher then 90% of the Taru BLM's i've seen of my level, mostly because most mages dont buy the best equipment. I'll tell you right now that even with food to boost up my int by +4, 70% full effect spells landing is the best you'll get.

I don't know what lvl you are but since you mentioned Thunder i'm guessing your under 30. Enjoy it, because at lvl 40+ monster resistances get retarded. I have the BEST equipment for BLM's in the entire game for my level, and if my spells get resisted 30% of the time, chances are yours will be 60% of the time when you get to that level.

So please, don't compare low lvling to high lvling, it's completely different. That's like arguing "Hey, i'm a lvl 5 BLM and i can solo easily. So anyone who tells you at lvl 40 BLM's can't solo is playing there class bad."

Now, look into your mirror...and repeat these words "I will try not to be an idiot" 500 times so maybe it sticks.

[Arguile]

"If you aren't nuking against weakness, go play another class plz"

Please don't add that to your sig, you didn't invent it or "magically" figure it out and you're trying to make yourself sound intelligent by saying it.

Besides, any BLM who is subbing RDM, as you are, is only half worthwhile in a party. Now go and try figuring out why.

[Fippish]

Heya Arguile, did you finally read my sig and realize I'm the same level as you after spewing junk about me not knowing what the 40's are like? Teehee.

I'm your level, and my int is 78 while exping, what's yours? I'm assuming at least as high, because with the BEST gear for your level, you of course have the +3 INT rings that only cost 600,000+ gil in the Auction House. Wow, you're rich.
And saying RDM is a bad sub.. You're hella full of bad ideas. RDM get ALL the same heals as WHM sub does, sure I can't be a buff bitch cuz I don't have protectra. But at 70/35 RDM has *1* less int Summoner, and a Magic Attack UP trait at lvl 25, making BLM/RDM the highest damaging nuker in the game, which is what I want.

If you want to disprove something I said, do so reasonably, don't make bad assumptions about what lvl I am (it was right in the frickin sig), and what abilities I have.

And the idiot line, that's just a pointless immature flame.

[Arguile]

You do know RDM's get whm spells much later then whm's do right? Meaning if you're subbing RDM and not WHM, you are getting your white magic spells MUCH later. Hell, i get raise by the time i'm lvl 50 blm. You won't get it until what, lvl 72? Come on....2+2 = what?

[Oompa]

I'm having a hard time believing that an Elvaan will outpower a Taru BLM with the same gear. Yeah, you might have some damn fine gear, but comprably equiped a Taru should have a higher INT than you ALL THE TIME.

If I'm wrong, feel free to prove me wrong, I won't get upset...

Elvaans are known for strength and not intellegence. In fact, as I remember, Elfs have the lowest INT of all BLM's.

[Fippish]

No, I will never get raise as a BLM/RDM.. wtf kind of lame arguement are you making? I'm not a healer, I'm not a rezzer, I'm not a frickin support class. I am a BLM, a BLM designed to be MOST effective at dealing damage. The fact that I can heal is just a bonus. You lose this arguement, and you won't mention what your INT is after I said mine is 78 at lvl 46 (with only lvl 16 sub). And I also doubt your INT is higher than ANY Taru your level, mine is 59 with no gear... again.. What's yours?
I usually don't like to point out the differences in race, but because you're being an ass... I have more INT than you, regardless of how nice your gear is.. I have more MP than you.. again, regardless.
I don't know what lvl you are but since you mentioned Thunder i'm guessing your under 30. Enjoy it, because at lvl 40+ monster resistances get retarded. I have the BEST equipment for BLM's in the entire game for my level, and if my spells get resisted 30% of the time, chances are yours will be 60% of the time when you get to that level.
So umm.. how do you attain this "better than Fippish" status with less INT, less MP, and obviously worse reading comprehension? Did you spend 4 million gil on gear?

[Taga]

This has been argued many times and most everyone agrees there is NO POINT to this arguement (between RDM/WHM subs) RDM and WHM are both viable subs that can accomplish pretty much the same things... RDM you get magic attack bonus (Which adds about 10 damage to my friend's 64BLM/32RDM) and less MP. Also, you get Healing spells later and miss out on some WHM only spells. If you want to see the biggest numbers from a nuke and don't want to be bothered with healing much go BLM/RDM... If you don't mind healing and doing a little less damage per spell then go BLM/WHM. BOTH classes have the pretty much the same damage output total (RDM most per spell/WHM more spells).

I'll show you a base comparision of a level 50 BLM/WHM and level 50 BLM/RDM. (both tarus)

WHM:
MP 623 INT 63 MND 42

RDM:
MP 610 INT 64 MND 40

RDM damage + 7 on each spell (this is how much a 64BLM/RDM gets with -II spells compared to a WHM sub.. gets +10 with -III spells)
WHM has Raise
WHM has 13 more MP which can easily do 39 more damage with that 13 MP. (3:1 ratio assuming you have good equip, goes up to 3.7~4:1 on MB)

+1 int isn't really going to change the tide in battle. If they both nuke around 5 times per mob ( which would be around 1~2 minutes (mob should be dead after 2 minutes at max)
So in the end they are pretty much equal.. I'm sick of this arguement

[Fippish]

/agree.. it's all dependant on playstyle, the difference between the two are rather small. I notice tho, I have never got a group invite where I was expected to be even the secondary healer. And that's exactly what I wanted. And no, I don't have problems getting groups :)

[Taga]

Originally posted by Fippish
/agree.. it's all dependant on playstyle, the difference between the two are rather small. I notice tho, I have never got a group invite where I was expected to be even the secondary healer. And that's exactly what I wanted. And no, I don't have problems getting groups :)
And I've got group invites to be primary healer + MBing (JP party) and I don't mind healing.. :)

[peacemaker]

Originally posted by caramelmania
Hello.

I said Ancient spells no use,but now we got a time,

lvl70 ppl all goes to Quest to be over 70,me still lvl 68 is too.
Yes, kill "someone".using Ancient spells.

Damage was,at 1st time,(I lost)My Flood?@was 260(resisted)
If it was full,I've heard the damage is 500?`600.

But I guess I'll not use these spells after lvl 70's lvling group,
cause BLM's way is

cast-not earn hate over who has Provoke,-cast-sometime support healers-cast-.....Not to attacked,If so, you easiry die.

hmm----I'm so sorry always my words are not enough in English, plz keep it secret to JP ppl /blush

Yeah, apart from killing that bastard. We sometimes have to use ancient in PT now 71+ if have BRD or RDM + black or vermillion cloak, and enough MP, because some monsters have too much HP, like the weapons in moon gate. But at these levels, some ga spells are more powerful than ancients. eg. Blizzardga3 > Freeze.

Note: PLDs and other taunters have to be very good. I've been in PTs where I've never gotten hate even if the monster only lost half HP, and I've in PTs where I get hit every time if the monster doesn't die after MB.