I have seen this alot what in the heck is wrong with Dragoon class??????

They can't take many hits due to low defence.

heh thats funny, people should not care about that, if you play a Dragoon right with a good subjob (like redmage) you can be a great Dragoon

Redmage sub? That would be kinda odd but hell whatever makes you happy.

it my sound odd but that is why at a higher level it will rock :P

Originally posted by MAK
Redmage sub? That would be kinda odd but hell whatever makes you happy.

Mak read some of the things people post about using dragoon in this game with RDM as a sub its not to far down this list.
I personally play a drg/rdm now , and luv it .
theres nothing weird about it.
If it was square wouldnt have made the drg the rdm of melee classes. NOR would they have given us sub jobs to argue about any way.

Hey, i never said it was a bad choice i just never heard of anyone sub a redmage..

Originally posted by sHaDoW hEal2t
They can't take many hits due to low defence.

Well thf cant take hits but they dont suck...same with drk....mnk cant tank well either.... you make a strong point my friend :rolleyes:

Actually monks can tank fairly well because they have a naturally high defence, and what dark knights lack in defence they make up for in strength, then thieves have good skills and speed. Their's pro's and con's to all classes. The reason why dragoon's have a low defense is because the armor they can equip is limited. And i didn't say they suck, sorry if you misread my post. But that's why most people don't play them, or why they give up on them early on.

im seeing Dragoon/Theif becoming a viable class combo for this reason....

with the theif sub, you get added evasion of im right. Since Dragoon's cant take hits, like theif's, they need to find another way to live.

edit: btw if anyone has played this combo and can give me some info that would be great. I thinkin of this for my character. Race is Elvaan btw.

Well, this is just my view, but a lot of times people say a class sucks because 1. They haven't even tried it yet, and they feel they are too Uber to change. 2. They couldn't complete the quest, so they say it sucks to make them feel better. and 3. (sort of like 2) They're just too lazy to try it, so they assume it's bad. I agree that all classes have their pros and cons. Personally, when I actually get the game, I'm going to be a dragoon because they were my favorite class in Final Fantasy Tactics. :thumbsup:

A tought came to me. Why not sub Pld with dragoon
i've run it trough the stat calculator and the vit for a Pal/War and a Dragoon/PLD is alomost the same :D

I've tought of this while beeing torn apart by the desicion of beeing either a Draggon or a Pal

I've seen a LOT of people diss the stat calculator, and I think I understand now.

Abalister, VIT is one thing, defense is another. Paladins get much better armor defensive-wise, plus natural increased defense due to their passive skills, plus, their active skills as well...so it's really not the same.

I DON'T have in-game experience but I HAVE been reading a LOT on the game, and I *think* what I posted above is right...

Originally posted by LillithNura
Why People say Dragoon suck???


Because they don't know what they're talking about.



:thumbsup:

Tactics? wha? where?! GIMME A NEW TACTICS SQUARE!!!
*remembers the endless nights of wandering around in deep dungeon*

sorry off topic hehe


Dragoons rock, they attack and then can get rid of hate in flash. Nothing finer in a good party:thumbsup:

dragoons rock man!!!!!!!!! :handsdown :handsdown :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :biggrin:

"Why People say Dragoon suck???"

Because they're idiots. No job sucks.

There is no sucky job in FFXI and if there was it shouldnt matter bc you like it. DRG is my favorite class of all time. I love drg and nobody can change my opinion. Even if square enix itself syas drg sucks i will still play it

HaHa nothing makes me happier then when ppl say a job i am interested in sucks, no I am serious. Back when i started a rdm in import they where not liked, and I loved every minute of it. Then they were given enchant spells and regen and the whole thing changed. As soon as i knew ninja was in expansion I have been anticipating playing one in NA release and was very happy to find out that ppl were having difficulty with them.

People seem to have an obsession with being "uber" and i have never really cared. Problem with uber is taht you just make a cookie cutter and everyone follows along, so congrats you are the best, jsut like everyone else who crunched statistics and read strategies.

Nowadays i hear ninja is getting better, or at least ppl are complaining less, so maybe the mantle passes o dragoon. Hell that just means there are a few less dragoons in the world, but if you have a good head on your shoulders you are always welcome in a party of mine. See ya on the fields of Vanadiel, I'll be the one on the battlefield smiling ^^

Would a Dragoon Lancer/Black Mage be a good combo? Thanks!:cool:

I like the fact people say the Dragoon sucks. I have loved them since i played as Kain, and i have always liked them since. And i would rather have a lot less people being Dragoons, instead of everyone being them :p

DRAGOONS RULE :handsdown :thumbsup: :handsdown

yeah I have like Dragoons since Kain as well and I love the ju,p thing it rocks heh, and I am thinking of trying many diffrent combos with Dragoon to see what I cancome up with :)

Dragoons dont suck. There is a lot of them but not horribly. I just dun like it when people say they are not needed in a PT. Then hell, what is? PLD and 2 mages...what else? Its the same as my DRK some people wont let me into there PTs because they think im useless becuase i cant tank. Thats not the point, thats not what these 2 jobs are about, they are there to deal dmg not tank. You can have defense but with no offense you will go no where. Dont get your hopes up though thinking that DRGs will be a minority there are lots. Ive actually seen less DRKs and more SAMs, NINs and DRGs lately

I used to hear that DRK's were everywhere compared to the other classes, maybe the changes you're seeing is because people want to try something that's not so popular? Or just trying a new class

DRG was a nice class to PT with-- honestly I'd trade WARS for DRG in my PT (if only because 1 tank is all that was really needed anyhow XD). Damage dealer = always good. And having the dragon's breath attack (whatever that was.. dunno HOW many times I've had to wipe sand off my armour.. Keth.) does help out in adding to dmg taken by the target.

Dunno how good /PLD would work.. I've seen WARs sub PLD, but that gives you *maybe* 2-4 extra defense... and in comparison to the 240-250 def I got at 42.. meh. I saw a WHM sub PLD once and jus wanted to die right there.. losing a ton of MP from a SMN or BLM subjob jus for a *few* measily defense points that shoudn't even be bothered with for a support class? (Kinda offends me because I felt like the guy didn't trust that I knew how to do my job).

People I've heard say DRGs blow simply for their low def... and I jus sat there with the look of duh.. DRKs have low defense too.. it's not DRG or DRK's job to tank.. that's why there are PLDs and WARs ^^ DRG and DRK are uber damage dealers, and are definitely needed in PTs *nods*

Retail time I want to try DRG for kicks.. Woogark was an uber DRG (and Kethcr in CN after Woo left us T_T btw if he ever posts here: QUACK). Karav-Marav was my favourit dragon too (Lumiere was cool Keth.. but again I had SAND in places I didn't realize it could get to because you aimed it RIGHT at me everytime XD)

You would trade a High lv WAR for a DRG 0.o if the war was using his 2hnd axe he could shield break and power break and taunt and attack. WARs WS are godly with a 2hnd axe. When ever i get invite to a PT they always make sure i have a 2hnd axe with me for shield break. Its better to have a WAR IMO....

And while the enemy has all its hate focused on you the DRG gets some penta thrusts and some super jumps in :thumbsup: In partys you shouldn't "trade" one job for another, you use them all together. Its not like you say, well we already have a DRG so theres no reason to have a WAR, you just have them both in the group. The WAR can take more hits than a DRG so you get the enemy to focus on him while the DRG is beating the crap outta the enemy. Jobs compliment each other, they don't take each others places.

Yeah... but if you experienced some of the things I went through with a WAR in my pt you'd understand why.. *ie taunting something off me when I was still in good health, then getting the crap beaten out of them and me having to waste a lot of things to get it back ON me.. etc* I still like the DRGs a lot in comparison ^^

No job in FFXI sucks, they all have a Str and wnknss in a PT. I never got the Dragoon Job but i was in PT's with them and i they were just like any other job, their dragon helps too ;d

Originally posted by caelestis
Yeah... but if you experienced some of the things I went through with a WAR in my pt you'd understand why.. *ie taunting something off me when I was still in good health, then getting the crap beaten out of them and me having to waste a lot of things to get it back ON me.. etc* I still like the DRGs a lot in comparison ^^

Sounds like you just need to party with warriors that don't suck^^

Heh... around the time when I hit Eldieme did they understand that I was the prime tank for a *reason* when they were getting smacked for 80 and me roughly 55 ^^;;

I've worked with some really good WARs though.. so I won't dog them. Heck, I started out as one (and will be again..).

DRGs are still cool to PT with.... the fact the dragon *snorts* is still amusing to me ^^

DRAGOONS ROCK. they were my fav in ff 4 in ff5 with whm sub and ffix's freya had the coolest ablities, the drg in ffxi should have freya abilities then they would be the gods of all classes. and for those who love drg and would like to see them with wings egend of Dragoon and you will fall in love, its for ps1

Originally posted by sHaDoW hEal2t
They can't take many hits due to low defence.

You have absolutely NO relation to why people claim drg sucks...noone judges drg by their defense whatsoever, in fact we have better defense then a drk or rng...so...yea...

as for drg/rdm...no offense but I gotta ask why...if anything I would be subbing white mage, and that would be for solo purpose only, /whm gives you more MP...I dont see anything coming from rdm that is better than whm, maybe they have an occasional nuke, but that will completely waste ur MP doing a total of 12 damage...if youre lucky...so...if anyone could lemme know...I mean dispel I know might be helpful at 66, but I just don't see a point really

in fact we have better defense then a drk or rng...so...yea...
with my normal pt equip a mage has only slightly less def -.-
and no we dont have better def than drks ><"
they can wear heavy armor and we can wear paper =P

as for drg/rdm...no offense but I gotta ask why...if anything I would be subbing white mage, and that would be for solo purpose only, /whm gives you more MP...I dont see anything coming from rdm that is better than whm, maybe they have an occasional nuke, but that will completely waste ur MP doing a total of 12 damage...if youre lucky...so...if anyone could lemme know...I mean dispel I know might be helpful at 66, but I just don't see a point really
poison uses only 5mp so even if you have less mp with rdm you can cast the spell more ^^
+mp items are also more effective then >.>
and dont forget phalanx or fastcast that helps a lot soloing <.<

@Kaylik
why the hell do you revive a 1 year old post -,-?

Cause maybe he wanted to feel good about DRG again :P

yeah this was my old accounts post lol......and I see the fight for DRG is still going strong -.- my DRG is 46 now and once I get WAR to 37 I will will go back to DRG. I dont care what peopel say I am getting that job to 75!.....even if it takes me another year

Originally posted by ElJoyo
with my normal pt equip a mage has only slightly less def -.-
and no we dont have better def than drks ><"
they can wear heavy armor and we can wear paper =P


but their natural defense is less than ours..without armor on, the point is drgs defense is not even a tiny bit of the reason theyre said to be bad

but you are not going to go into an EXP PT with out armor...so the armor is a factor in this.

but omg how did you actually answer a q that was made over a year ago XD

Anyways DEF is NOT an issue for DD unless they expect you to back up tank...and even then that's not really something you should concern about :P

But changing the subject...i notice that the wyvern has healing breath I and II....how come elemental breaths don't have upgrades? :confused:

And has anyone gotten away with a breath MB? i'm still waiting to see that :P

NO defense is an issue.

Just not the biggest one for DD.

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again, It's not about hate, it's hate balance

Just not the biggest one for DD.

In a perfect theological situations, the best case senerio is the pt damage is just shy of taking hate off your main tank.

Of course that doesn't happen.

IF you take no hate, the theory goes you are not doing the damage of a ideal DD because you're "wasting hate" in a sense, on the flip side, too much hate and you're "wasting defense".

So we play the +/- game. Where is your pt balances the load of damage to enemy vs damage from enemy over the best xp senerio.

Rule of thumb is, you hold back and be conservative in chain 1-3 and full attack on 4-5.

So anyway on drg, I don't think they're a bad class either, but all those dime a dozen idiot dragoons give them a bad name.

Still... the main problem I see with drg is not really defense so much, though it's not steller compare to /nins

It's the pet actually. The liablity of the little one in terms of AoE really sucks. If it dies, the drg is handicapped, if it's hurt, you waste major mp.

Takes a skill player to keep him alive and kicking without holding the pt back, which sadly most drg don't seem to have.

Originally posted by Kibagami
And has anyone gotten away with a breath MB? i'm still waiting to see that :P
http://mitglied.lycos.de/eljoyo/ffxi/pol%202004-12-15%2017-23-07-26.JPG

Let me make my final statement for this thread that I've been staying from the start.


Defense.does.not.matter.for.DD I don't care that they get hit, yes they do wooha arent we all so special, if you buy armor that sacrifices another piece that is better str dex attack or accuracy wise, then my guess is youre not a very good DD.

So you don't care if in WS, your darknight goes souleat/berserk/ vorpal, get double attack and hammerbreaked to death, before the thf can SATA back?

SO what's the solution, tell the darknight to hold back hate, i.e. less damage, while at the same time, say don't hold back too much because we need chain5.

OR in the case of a ranger, who gets triple attacked shadow down and peked to death.

Or a drg that goes "wtf {super jump}" but finds himself dead from 600 poison breath+ 2 hits, from your lovable crawler.

Yea well shit happens, and it happens more when you need to do [full attack]. That's why ranger cling to /nin for their dear life, when a berserk + sidwinder is heck a better.

Defense matters, not the most important, but you need a decent amount depending on your pt.

This where an intelligent DD goes "How can I play my job better?".

As a DRG myself, I sadly don't get parties...though I am oneof the better ones out there. When I am picked, it is usually to start or end a Lvl 3 WS with a specific job, or to be a fuidama partner.

Now, at this current moment I use a Tiger Jerkin, some pieces of AF and Tiger pants. Nothing special. Now, 90% of the damage dealers would go "Ok, lets go on out and get busy!". An intelligent one would say "Hmmm, I play multiple roles in the party...be it dealing huge damage, emergency tank, or fuidama partner. Maybe I should prepare for those.".

Myself, I do that. I carry AF, Carapace set (for fuidama and emergency tanking), Feral set (+attack) and multiple weapons for given situation. And before I get razed about this being too expensive, carapace pieces run 15-20k, tiger/feral run even lower. The only sticking thing may be your weapons.

So in the end, all of you are both right and wrong. Defense isn't really much of an issue for most damage dealers. The base defense of normal gear provides adequate protection. But smart ones, the ones that try and play to the fullest, prepare for everything. It all depends on playing style, and party role.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: Intelligent playing also applies to abilities. Know when and how to use them, and you won't need to concetrate on defense so much in certain situations.

If your tank is worth it you really don't need to worry about this.

I myself have hold agro to the point where the THF can fuidama on to another melee and it still won't turn around. This is not good at times cause if you get too low on hp no one will be able to take it off you so you will die...and then the WHM and then the party disbands etc etc etc :P

Yes there is a point when you over tank and it's not good. Hate management is key in a party. The tank must have hate but must also not over tank, melees can get hit a couple of times so can mages. For DRG/WAR it's just a matter of having a defender macro and super jump ready for those times when it gets rough.

DRG is very unloved and Ive never really been to sure why either...we arent a very appriciated DD
I hate how it can take me hours and hours to get a pt, even at my mid level >< I have been worried about this cus..I love DRG but some people say they stop playing it at higher levels because its just to hard to get invites.

I don't think I've had a PT yet where I wasn't complimented on my Dmg output.

I get PT invites on reputation.

I was going to say that Polearm is a shitty weapon and a lot of mobs are resistant to it, the mobs that you fight most often, like... Crabs. Later levels there are much better Light SC starters and much better Light SC closers. Jumps miss 90% of the time, period. DRGs lack in STR so they don't do a lot of DMG per hit. They can't tank. Wyverns get owned by AoEs easily and Spirit Link makes your HP go down, making mages, get angry. Your wyvern never really MBs, it misses often and it only does 1/2 your damage... which... isn't much to begin with. Even if it does MB (wyvern breath) it dosen't do all that much. Anyone can be a fuidama partner... you don't need a ability to get out of the hate. MNKs, 60+ are perfect fuidama partners. They get SATA'd off of all the time. And they're not tanks either. But you don't seem them yelling: SE! PLEASE GIVE ME A ABILITY TO SHEAD THE HATE!

Also, your two hour is a wyvern. He dosen't do much. You guys never steal hate so a Super (or whatever it's called) Jump isn't nessacary. Once in a PT config. We were forced to fuidama off a RDM and a RNG/WAR, yes, no Utsusemi here. And the tank was able to pull hate off him or the mob was dead before anything got rough.

You guys also don't get any abilities 30+. The job just halts from there. Of course you might say...: I got my sub's stuff! Yes... good Dragoon. You were right! However, the DRK get his own abilties and traits stacked with his subs.

Also, you guys aren't versatile. You guys can only use polearms. Wait, I know you can use Swords... but you can't use anything good 60+. You're stuck using a already flawed weapon forever.

DRK: Sword, Great Sword, Shield, Scythe
WAR: Pretty much everything
MNK: H2H and Staffs (even though Staff is never used for EXP), H2H is a rocking weapon especially 65. IMO, one of the best weapons.

Can I think of more? Sure. But I wanna play FFXI. Not chat right now.

EDIT: Also, you have a lot of gimp n00bs in your class. I don't know why this job may attract them... You guys got a rough time because people choose it for the cool factor because they're well... "cool". Because they can't waste IRL time to farm because they got to chill, or smoke weed with their friends. It's either EXP @ Lv. 57 with their AF1 lance and their home town ring or logout... and in the end... that fool gets a invite because some group of mofos are desperate.

And DRGs aren't very good for HNM. I don't know why, but other classes do better.

I don't hate DRG but they lose their edge 60+ definitley. If you guys get some buffs 60+ then you'll be in the same place as every other DD.

Funguwari, you are mostly right, but what most people do not relize is that DRG CAN sub any job and adapt to useing it to their best ability witch IMNO makes DRG a very good job, I became a Dragoon because I loved Kain from FFIV and that is what keeps me a Dragoon!

DRG/PLD emergency tank
DRG/DRK DD
DRG/WAR hate control
DRG/WHM backup healer
DRG/BLM MB caster (only use spells durring MB)
DRG/RDM Read this (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19618)
DRG/MNK DD
DRG/SAM DD
DRG/NIN Blink tank
DRG/BRD an extra song doesnt hurt :p
DRG/SMN .......ok well not all jobs
DRG/RNG dito

now before you respond....dont give me any of that statistical crap, or any of that "you cant sub that" jazz....I dont want to hear that BS because that is all it is...BS
now useing these subs does not make DRG "leet" or anything but it makes them usefull in any condition, and that is what I realy think SE had in mind for DRG, it is just once the cookie cutter crap set in, it ruined that vision.......

*places Flame barrier in place and gets ready*

Ok go ahead and let he have it, and remember, dont flame it untill you have tried it yourself! stop being lazzy and try checking this info out foryourself for once..........

omg jou guyz er so stupid. every1 no that dragun subs bard. were ja hell jou been.:zzz: jou fa'cking maricons!





http://tune.ache-bang.com/~vg/outitem/up/img/2942.gif -Al Pacino a.k.a Genuine

omg jou guyz er so stupid. every1 no that dragun subs bard. were ja hell jou been. jou fa'cking maricons!

*her flame shield shimmers and blocks the flame*

Genuine, if you are going to post.....use your brain first.........

LOL LOL LOL

Ok to the idiot up there that made a really long post about some really stupid shit.

DRG doesn't lack in strenght...if anything DRG does most of it's damage from the hits. Pretty nice DoT. Also DRG get super jump at 50....DRK and SAM are the ones that stop getting anything after 30.

THE ONLY and lemme repeat this... ONLY real problem DRG has is wheeling trhust. DRG is an SC opener not an ender. I always get invited to open up distortion for a THF. Later on i will get invited to open up Light. Now b4 66 the jobs i compete against are SAM and DRK to open that up. Thank god most DRK are retards and sub THF pre 60 and cause of that they don't get picked to open up SC. SAM is pretty weak compared to DRG at least from 1-50 . Even with kote, snips and all that shit thier enpi is not going to surpase double trhust of a well equiped DRG. Also DRG gets tp fast enough to catch up to a THF/NIN. Heck if you SAM sucks in the gear department you can even catch up to them even with meditate.

Once lvl 3 SC starts rolling in we compete against WAR and RNG. I already said this b4 but i'll say it again. RNG owns us in the dmg department plus he is THE puller of the party. WAR is probably the tank. We are only DD. We are not used for anything else. Therefore guess who get's picked last?

About being a SATA bitch. Yes everyone can do it. But it's not that good actually. I really prefer a WAR or a RNG/NIN to be it cause i do get hit hard. Heck if i wait too long for SATA to land i usually die. And so will MNKs and anything else cuase we don't gear ourself for defense, and sometimes we got berserk on, etc etc...

And no we don't need anything else besides polearms. We are SC openers...we don't need to be flexible about our weapons at all. And no one excells against crabs....only BLM you dumbass. Even your beloved MNK or the master RNG hates those. Geeeez dude.

Only bones give us problems....can you tell me how often you fight those? in almost a year of playin ived only xped of bones once....

And kailea i really love your suport and all but plz don't claim things we are not. We cannot sub everything. I would say that for xp purposes WAR and THF only...and THF only on certain parties. The rest of subs CAN have a use but not for xp matters.

Originally posted by Funguwari
I was going to say that Polearm is a shitty weapon and a lot of mobs are resistant to it, the mobs that you fight most often, like... Crabs. Later levels there are much better Light SC starters and much better Light SC closers. Jumps miss 90% of the time, period. DRGs lack in STR so they don't do a lot of DMG per hit. They can't tank. Wyverns get owned by AoEs easily and Spirit Link makes your HP go down, making mages, get angry. Your wyvern never really MBs, it misses often and it only does 1/2 your damage... which... isn't much to begin with. You see this is the sort of stuff that gives us a bad name. I had a parser running recently while fighting Robber Crabs. Something that according to Funguwari is something that we're weak against.
(THF/NIN)
Total Fights: 21
Average Damage: 736.71
Average Percent: 22.17
Average Accuracy: 72.83
Estimated DPS:

(SAM/WAR)
Total Fights: 21
Average Damage: 1015.48
Average Percent: 30.5
Average Accuracy: 71.97
Estimated DPS:

(PLD/WAR)
Total Fights: 21
Average Damage: 345.76
Average Percent: 10.4
Average Accuracy: 56.23
Estimated DPS:

(DRG/THF)
Total Fights: 21
Average Damage: 851.33
Average Percent: 25.55
Average Accuracy: 69.15
Estimated DPS:

(WYVERN)
Total Fights: 21
Average Damage: 288.38
Average Percent: 8.67
Average Accuracy: 73.49
Estimated DPS:

(WHM/BLM)
Total Fights: 0
Average Damage: 0.00
Average Percent: 0.00
Average Accuracy: 0.00
Estimated DPS:

(RDM/BLM)
Total Fights: 15
Average Damage: 12.4
Average Percent: 0.37
Average Accuracy: 0
Estimated DPS:

SC: Distortion
Total Fights: 18
Average Damage: 95
Average Percent: 2.85
Average Accuracy: 100
Estimated DPS:

As you can see we're not weak at all. My base damge was lower the the SAM/WAR. With his WAR sub he was using Beserk alot and his Ochi's Kote gave him a big attack boost in addition to his other equipment. But even with all that with my + my wyvern's damage we still managed to out damage him. There's some new equipment I'll be getting soon that should boost my attack even more. Oh, and about the wyvern taking alot of damege. I only needed to use spirit link two or three times, every time used after a fight and the HP I lost could be gotten back with a single Cure III. And jumps deffinatly do not miss 90% of the time.

And kailea i really love your suport and all but plz don't claim things we are not. We cannot sub everything. I would say that for xp purposes WAR and THF only...and THF only on certain parties. The rest of subs CAN have a use but not for xp matters.

yes I know...but this is my point, NO ONE has every really tried messing with these in dept, all we have done is taken the advice of others and made that law.

Originally posted by kuu

Defense matters, not the most important, but you need a decent amount depending on your pt.

Id hate to be in your pts

Originally posted by Kailea-D
Funguwari, you are mostly right, but what most people do not relize is that DRG CAN sub any job and adapt to useing it to their best ability witch IMNO makes DRG a very good job, I became a Dragoon because I loved Kain from FFIV and that is what keeps me a Dragoon!

DRG/PLD emergency tank
DRG/DRK DD
DRG/WAR hate control
DRG/WHM backup healer
DRG/BLM MB caster (only use spells durring MB)
DRG/RDM Read this (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19618)
DRG/MNK another backup tank
DRG/SAM DD
DRG/NIN Blink tank
DRG/BRD an extra song doesnt hurt :p
DRG/SMN .......ok well not all jobs
DRG/RNG dito

now before you respond....dont give me any of that statistical crap, or any of that "you cant sub that" jazz....I dont want to hear that BS because that is all it is...BS
now useing these subs does not make DRG "leet" or anything but it makes them usefull in any condition, and that is what I realy think SE had in mind for DRG, it is just once the cookie cutter crap set in, it ruined that vision.......

*places Flame barrier in place and gets ready*

Ok go ahead and let he have it, and remember, dont flame it untill you have tried it yourself! stop being lazzy and try checking this info out foryourself for once..........

ok here it is.. that was one of the stupidest things I have ever heard, none of those subs would get invites ever other than /war, /sam 60+ and /thf.

Originally posted by Kibagami
LOL LOL LOL

Ok to the idiot up there that made a really long post about some really stupid shit.

DRG doesn't lack in strenght...if anything DRG does most of it's damage from the hits. Pretty nice DoT. Also DRG get super jump at 50....DRK and SAM are the ones that stop getting anything after 30.

THE ONLY and lemme repeat this... ONLY real problem DRG has is wheeling trhust. DRG is an SC opener not an ender. I always get invited to open up distortion for a THF. Later on i will get invited to open up Light. Now b4 66 the jobs i compete against are SAM and DRK to open that up. Thank god most DRK are retards and sub THF pre 60 and cause of that they don't get picked to open up SC. SAM is pretty weak compared to DRG at least from 1-50 . Even with kote, snips and all that shit thier enpi is not going to surpase double trhust of a well equiped DRG. Also DRG gets tp fast enough to catch up to a THF/NIN. Heck if you SAM sucks in the gear department you can even catch up to them even with meditate.

Once lvl 3 SC starts rolling in we compete against WAR and RNG. I already said this b4 but i'll say it again. RNG owns us in the dmg department plus he is THE puller of the party. WAR is probably the tank. We are only DD. We are not used for anything else. Therefore guess who get's picked last?

About being a SATA bitch. Yes everyone can do it. But it's not that good actually. I really prefer a WAR or a RNG/NIN to be it cause i do get hit hard. Heck if i wait too long for SATA to land i usually die. And so will MNKs and anything else cuase we don't gear ourself for defense, and sometimes we got berserk on, etc etc...

And no we don't need anything else besides polearms. We are SC openers...we don't need to be flexible about our weapons at all. And no one excells against crabs....only BLM you dumbass. Even your beloved MNK or the master RNG hates those. Geeeez dude.

Only bones give us problems....can you tell me how often you fight those? in almost a year of playin ived only xped of bones once....

And kailea i really love your suport and all but plz don't claim things we are not. We cannot sub everything. I would say that for xp purposes WAR and THF only...and THF only on certain parties. The rest of subs CAN have a use but not for xp matters.

Well, you're right except WARs will do more damage than you over time and per swing. Except for WS. Wheeling Thrust is better than Mistral Axe from what I've seen. And WAR can be Tricked off of easy, as well as DRG because of your Super Jump. It really depends on situation. If we were fighting agianst crabs and whatnot, WAR defintiley. Bones, WAR definitley. But if it was for something like flies or anything along those lines... I'd pick the DRG. Sadly, there are more Crab or "hard" type, Polearm resistance monsters. And DRG stops developing via job TRAITS, not ABILITIES. DRK stops developing via job ABILTIES and continues to develop via job TRAITS. Therefore, giving DRK the advantage here. I'd rather have no abilties and all traits, it works out better in the long run (see: MNK).

Actually, Rogan. The reason they don't get an invite is because of the main job, not the sub job. Really, the "required" sub is like putting salt on the wound. Does it hurt us? Yeah. Is it the main factor? No.

For instance, I was trying to prove in my linkshell that there is no "right" sub, that subbing WHM for levels 1-10 to solo is no better than subbing RDM or WAR. Their argument was that it reduced downtime where RDM means no cure till lvl 6 & WAR means no cure at all. My point was that WAR & RDM gave more boosts to melee, which is pretty much all you can do (except BLM when you get Bind). That in turn made the fights shorter, allowed for chains--which are easier at that low level--and got more exp over time. By way of example, I made chain 3 at level 11 as DRG/WAR. I couldn't have done that as /WHM. I simply don't have enough MP or my wyvern enough HP for Heal Breath to make it work.

Now let's take DRG/BRD. Will it get a lot of invites? After 50, it can if the party members are thinking straight. While no job w/ BRD subbed can use instruments, there is little to no effect on Paeon or Ballad becuase of that. The ATK boost from Minuet doesn't quite make up for loss from WAR subjob, but adds up over the course of other melee. Also, the wyvern can do Heal Breath on red HP members from any song. I can sing an endless line of threnodies to trigger that. Did I mention there's no MP involved? That means no resting and losing TP. To recap, I refresh MP, I regen HP, I help everyone do more damage, I heal party members when things go bad, I can WS as normal and still get element breaths. In addition, I can madrigal or march (closer to level 60) if it helps the situation. I can solo/farm decently, and can use madrigal for skill points (I did the math and Jupiter Staff can outdamage spear on bones until, like, level. . . 62(?) I don't have the info with me right now).

You're right, /BRD won't get a lot of invites. But I feel it has a lot to offer a party once you get to level 50 and become mage-friendly. Sure it's not quite as powerful as BRD at that half-level with instruments, and the damage I cause may be through other people, but I can lower downtime, do all the jumps any other DRG can, and come through in a pinch. Now tell me that's not useful.

jou kno i was joking bout bard....

ok here it is.. that was one of the stupidest things I have ever heard, none of those subs would get invites ever other than /war, /sam 60+ and /thf.
ok look....I said nothing about invites, I was talking about what each combo can be used for, and yes these combos would get invites if it was not for the BS going around about this game and how it works, and it is all due to one group of lazy arss people that got togeather and said "Hey lets say this and this go togeather and not test it and say we did"

I have no idea where all of this hate comes from. I literally have Drks, Sams, Rngs, Thfs, and Mnks, /telling me compliments during XP PTs, or begging me to tell them how I gain 200%+ TP to their 100%.

90% of my PT invites since lvl 58 have been JP (most of them compliment me and invite me when they see me online.). With my Current Gear (and food) set-up, I can Solo Skewer (for 200-400Dmg + breath for 50-155~) at the beginning of the fight and still beat the other DD to 100% for the SC. I eat Sole Sushi, and Both of my Jumps land 85% of the time ON TORAMAS! At lvl 60, I still pull hate from every Pld and DD I PT with at least a few times, if not every fight. ... I don't know what you guys are talking about...Maybe you PT with sub-par Drg.

Whatever your problem is, it pisses me off. It pisses me off if you are spouting all of this crap because you don't have any personal experience with it. And it pisses me off even more if you have had experience with crappy Drg and then assume that all Drg are equally as crappy and then consider it your divine obligation to spread rumors to further tarnish the Drg reputation.

As for End-Game. On Fenrir the current leader of UnBreakable HNM LS is a lvl 75 Drg/War\Drk\Rdm\Sam. If you play your Sub-jobs right for each HNM fight, you can become a very good asset to your Alliance.

Don't spread crap all over the place just because you are:

A. a Drg that doesn't put enough effort, farming, research into your Job, to become a great DD. Unfortunately, you can't just pick up Drg and be great at it.

A lvl 60 drg without 34+ equip Acc? {Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.}

B. Someone that has been told by someone they respected that "Drg = teh SuxXor" and have been too confirmation biased to figure out the truth for yourself.

C. Someone that has PTd with less than a handful of Gimp Drg and automatically decided to discriminate against us.

o... and for all of you that doubt the power of Drg/Mage... try soloing the Sea Horror @ lvl 67

Vid of Drg soloing the Sea Horror for lvl up (http://ffxi.devilsnevercry.net/seahorror.html)

DRG/WHM =1
Sea Horror =0

/cheer

and that is how you play a DRG/WHM :p

Yokai, I agree with you. DRG is a force to be reckoned with. As I said before, I spent an evening trying to reason with my LS on how DRG/BRD could work (especially with AF). I believe in the power of DRG. I don't have the most "uber" gear out there, but I still manage to keep up with other jobs no matter how "l33t" they are. I'm still figuring out how I'm going to make all the money needed for the great gear as I level. And to think, I can spend less money than some jobs since I can't equip some of the awesome armor that they can.

However, the problem isn't me. It isn't the DRG's on these boards. It's the handful of DRG's that can't play well, who are the same handful that give a bad name to any job they try, and those who never take the wyvern damage into account. Really, if S-E would just add a "Party Member Pet" series in the chat filters, DRG and SMN would be much more liked. The recent "NPC" set helps, but allows too much through so that it's likely still turned off by others.

Then again, even with that, DRG could still stand to have a few improvements. DRG quite simply has too much of a bad image to be nullified by something as simple as that. Suddenly making it obvious they are equal to other jobs doesn't make people want to replace those other jobs, the prejudice will still persist. DRG either needs something to make them better--which is unethical and unfair--or something to make them unique.

That's all I'm asking for. How often do you see someone try WAR to see what it's like, or BLM, or BRD, or RNG, or DRK. They do it because they see what they do for the party and want to try it for themselves. I want people to tell their LS, "I'm thinking about unlocking DRG. I partied with one the other night, and it looked like fun." And I want the LS to respond, "You'll like it, it works with any subjob." I want to join a party and have them ask me if I have another sub leveled enough to use because they played with one the other day and loved it, or make sure I'm using a spear to open SC's to let the wyvern MB. That doesn't happen yet, but it could. . . and it should.

my post wasn't directed to you man... just the gaggle of other self-absorbed, "haters".

:mad:

Well that vid is entertaining and all but DRG problem isnt soloing...it's more about party invites. If DRG/WHM actually gave that kind of advantage to a party then that would be nice...

Well that vid is entertaining and all but DRG problem isnt soloing...it's more about party invites. If DRG/WHM actually gave that kind of advantage to a party then that would be nice...

that is the thing....it does, you just cant see it

DRG/WHM can be a back up healer, anuker with banish, and help with enhancement spells look at DRGs AF helm....it gives + to MND for gods sake.......and I dont care what anyone says haveing WHM as a sub does not lower your attack that much, but yes I know you do loose the attackup skills of other jobs....

but this is the problem, when saying that this sub is better then this sub or what ever, you can not factor in the skills of the sub, because that is why everyone always subs WAR for beserk and the att up skills.

Nuke....with....banish............................ ...???

I'm sorry but that would just never. ever. work. Whm nukes are inefficient as it is on most things, and now you're talking about halved divine skill. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that's a horrible horrible plan. And just how much mp does a drg get from subbing whm anyway?

That's a good question. I went to check a stat calculator on that same subject a coupe days ago, and it was taken down. Does anyone have a site they can recommend for this?

One thing I was interested in was that I'm pretty sure subbing BLM gives you more MP, as well as a cheaper spell--poison--to trigger heal breath with. In addition, you'd have more spells to MB with, which is surely the only way you'll get any decent damage out of the spell.

Don't know where to put this but I got a parser of my EXP session tonight. http://gsdragoon.flaretech.net/ESK/index.htm

Ekoh was the Elvaan JP DRK/THF we picked up. They used a zweihander and tuna sushi. I stuck with Kabobs. TP was pretty good that way, but I still was usually ahead of them some. Think I'm going to try some sushi next time. Oh, and I only had my wyvern out the few times we fought crawlers and for Aquarious. So basicly, this is without they wyvern as we fought just about all Darters.

PS: please excuse the cheasy site, no one really goes their much, so I don't bother working on it much.

Most people will look at that and see that the DRK out damamged you.

Smart people will look at your wyvern aswell. People say it sucks and its true that it doesn't too masses of damage. It does give a DRG the edge alot of the time though.

You were still out damaged by Duracell. Although that was spell damage. BLM?

Yes, Duracell is our Taru BLM.

I paresered again tonight, but with Sushi this time. I bumped my dmg to about 28%^^ 2-3k for 30 minutes kinda sucks htough. I'll put them on the site tomorrow sometime.

There is nothing wrong with DRG, people just don't look at at least 1 of two things.

1. Our wyvern's damage contributes ALOT to our DoT.
2. Our mostly used Penta Thrust is a multi-hit WS (That means that against an IT mob, its possible that the CG makes it look like ur striking 5 times, but you can actually hit only 2-3 times. Thats why the damage seems very low sometimes. You may get 400+ one time then only say 250 the other.)
All depends on a DRG's ACC whether each hit lands or not.

Originally posted by Kailea-D
Funguwari, you are mostly right, but what most people do not relize is that DRG CAN sub any job and adapt to useing it to their best ability witch IMNO makes DRG a very good job, I became a Dragoon because I loved Kain from FFIV and that is what keeps me a Dragoon!

DRG/PLD emergency tank
DRG/DRK DD
DRG/WAR hate control
DRG/WHM backup healer
DRG/BLM MB caster (only use spells durring MB)
DRG/RDM Read this (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19618)
DRG/MNK DD
DRG/SAM DD
DRG/NIN Blink tank
DRG/BRD an extra song doesnt hurt :p
DRG/SMN .......ok well not all jobs
DRG/RNG dito

now before you respond....dont give me any of that statistical crap, or any of that "you cant sub that" jazz....I dont want to hear that BS because that is all it is...BS
now useing these subs does not make DRG "leet" or anything but it makes them usefull in any condition, and that is what I realy think SE had in mind for DRG, it is just once the cookie cutter crap set in, it ruined that vision.......

*places Flame barrier in place and gets ready*

Ok go ahead and let he have it, and remember, dont flame it untill you have tried it yourself! stop being lazzy and try checking this info out foryourself for once..........

drg/pld as a tank...sure if a jump could steal hate...wich wont happen because 1...i havent seen jumps teal hate since lvl 40..and two...your subbing pld...if your pting with a rng there is no way in possible hell you are taking hate...

drg/drk a dd...a very bad dd...

drg/war...damage...not hate control...

drg/whm is a good soloer...not really useful in a pt...

drg/blm retarded as fuck

drg/rdm useless as fuck

drg/mnk pitiful dd

drg/sam decent...faster ws...still think /war is better

drg/nin...not a fucking blink tank...not at all...no voke...3 shadows (unless 74) and as i said...if you are with another DD that hate will be right the fuck off you...

drg/brd yes that extra song does hurt...your taking off a song the brd has sung...and that bard is singing better songs...

drg/smn just no

drg/rng...has more use then /rdm and /blm...sadly...more acc is better then half assed half ass nukes...

you completly forgot drg/thf wich will do lower DPS but better ws...more usefull then most of those other subs...

drg has more flexibilty...but so does war...war can sub nin sam thf or monk with all having their perpose...drg can really only sub 3 in a pt and 1 for soloing...you completly forget about usefullness in a pt...any job can sub anything if they use your logic...fuck drk could sub whm and be a back up healer too...it would be a worse then bad idea though...some of these ideas look good on paper...but are shit useless in a pt...drg can be a real damn good job but with out the gear, skill and sub you could be easly out damaged...Kailea-D you are the biggest retard i have seen on these forums...and i have come to...you are a hooker and im going to slap you in public...please stop playing ffxi...just you playing makes the game suck...

By: Buuyon
Kailea-D you are the biggest retard i have seen on these forums...and i have come to...you are a hooker and im going to slap you in public...please stop playing ffxi...just you playing makes the game suck...

you know alot of what you said is true when I made that list it was late and I was not thinking about siomethings straite...but what I was trying to point out was that yes DRG can sub anything and bee good in a PT, because their stats are compatable with most subs.

You did not have to insult me, I am sorry I am not a hooker, and I am not a retard, and sorry but close minded people like you are the ones that "make the game suck" so please grow up a couple of years before you post on this thread again

Originally posted by Kailea-D
You did not have to insult me, I am sorry I am not a hooker, and I am not a retard,


(lie) You offered me 10 gil for a nut job last night.

People who say Drg hav'nt played it to EndGame, true its a ruff road of leveling, but actually you'll be doing more damage than a Mnk. With the right equips, I personally had to suck a lot of dick to get into Parties and did'nt get into a set until my late 60's, oh well I love Drg, heads turn when you run by.

It's very unique and is good against Drg type HNMs, but its very inderated for EXP parties, especially since S-E took away our most useful Job Trait.

edit; lol jo3, hooker Kailea is all you'll get.

by: jo3

(lie) You offered me 10 gil for a nut job last night.

in your dreams....,,I would not do it for even 1,000,000 gil.....looser

Originally posted by Kailea-D
by: jo3


in your dreams....,,I would not do it for even 1,000,000 gil.....looser

Yeah you would. Last night in my Mog house.

Originally posted by Kailea-D
that is the thing....it does, you just cant see it

DRG/WHM can be a back up healer, anuker with banish, and help with enhancement spells look at DRGs AF helm....it gives + to MND for gods sake.......and I dont care what anyone says haveing WHM as a sub does not lower your attack that much, but yes I know you do loose the attackup skills of other jobs....

but this is the problem, when saying that this sub is better then this sub or what ever, you can not factor in the skills of the sub, because that is why everyone always subs WAR for beserk and the att up skills.

Actually Kailea had some nice points, DRG/WHM would be bad for a exp Party, but on special missions you can take advantage of there extra Job Traits. The reason why they dont get invites is because they were downgraded, and they'd rather choose a DRK over them level 60+

No reason to call Kailea a hooker. :sweat:

Stop with the hooker stuff and back on topic, will ya?

Originally posted by Kailea-D
By: Buuyon


you know alot of what you said is true when I made that list it was late and I was not thinking about siomethings straite...but what I was trying to point out was that yes DRG can sub anything and bee good in a PT, because their stats are compatable with most subs.

You did not have to insult me, I am sorry I am not a hooker, and I am not a retard, and sorry but close minded people like you are the ones that "make the game suck" so please grow up a couple of years before you post on this thread again

please think before you speak about stuff that isnt true...every job can sub any job...doesnt mean it works...and no...drg cant sub anything and be good in a pt...sure go ahead...i dare ya...sub whm in a pt after lvl 60...lets see your dumb ass be kicked right back to the curb...hell for shits and giggles...sub blm...

when soloing...drg can sub alot of diffrent things...but soloing is MUCH diffrent then pts...when you solo you fight things 3 or so lvls over you(well a good drg/whm)...in a pt you fight things 12 lvls over you...its a big diffrence...

by: Buuyon
lets see your dumb ass be kicked right back to the curb

I am not listening to a thing you say untill you stop talking rudely to me and insulting me.

The resason DRG can sub even mage jobs effectivly is becuase of the DRGs core stats, witch are more on the generic side, allowing the ablility to sub WHM, RDM and even BLM, and I have said nothing about getting PTs with the job combos........ I am sayung that the combos would work well enuff to be in a PT and do quite well

in EXP PTs (just so people would not bitch) = WAR/SAM/THF
in Event PTs (all other reasons to PT) = all jobs but BST and SMN

Originally posted by Buuyon
please think before you speak about stuff that isnt true...every job can sub any job...doesnt mean it works...and no...drg cant sub anything and be good in a pt...sure go ahead...i dare ya...sub whm in a pt after lvl 60...lets see your dumb ass be kicked right back to the curb...hell for shits and giggles...sub blm...

when soloing...drg can sub alot of diffrent things...but soloing is MUCH diffrent then pts...when you solo you fight things 3 or so lvls over you(well a good drg/whm)...in a pt you fight things 12 lvls over you...its a big diffrence...

"lets see your dumb ass be kicked right back to the curb...hell for shits and giggles...sub blm..."

I suggest you stop. Make anymore flames and you will be banned, your already running a very high warning point. I won't ban you incase you are not aware of it. However, anymore flames towards anyone and you will be automatically banned.

-lieb39

"please think before you speak about stuff that isnt true."
Buuyon please think before being an ignoramus, maybe thats asking for the impossible.

"drg/rdm useless as fuck"
Even though its got fast cast and you can use poison for the healing breath which costs less MP than Dia ^^ useless indeed -.- I liked using this rather than whm sub and it worked just as well and can be even better at higher lvls.

"sub whm in a pt after lvl 60."
I've heard it before and it would work in certain pt setups. It may be a shock to you but changing subjobs to suit a situation is somthing we all should be doing. Its not the best sub for pick up pts but in set pts or LS/buddy pts who know what their doing and know the other pt members playstyle from the start it can work if they want it to. Subbing whm in a pt like that you would be a support melee rather than a DD aswell as being SATAed on if threres a thf.

The main problem with DRG is that people don't realize that it's a utility class. It's the only melee job that can sub mage type AND non-normal melee classes. It's versatile, but in being so suffers from mediocrity that bogs it down later in the game.

Why you people say Dragoon sucks?

Because in a normal 6 man EXP setting, they do.

Originally posted by Mephisto
Why you people say Dragoon sucks?

Because in a normal 6 man EXP setting, they do. Got any reasons or are you just another sheep following what other people started to say?

I've seen parser damage from both mine and other people logs showing Dragoons out damage other melee by quite a margin. So what is it that makes them suck?

I'm still waiting to see some real reasons here not just 'they just do, so there' crap with nothing to back it up.

Originally posted by Mephisto
Why you people say Dragoon sucks?

Because in a normal 6 man EXP setting, they do.

http://gsdragoon.flaretech.net/ESK/parsers/010705-Averages.htm

Ekoh (DRK/THF)
Total Fights: 66
Average Damage: 1130.53
Average Percent: 25.38
Average Accuracy: 74.58

Kainhighwind (DRG/WAR) me
Total Fights: 66
Average Damage: 1219.97
Average Percent: 28.01
Average Accuracy: 82.43

We both had great gear, used sushi and were hasted. They used a GS and the SC was wheeling thrust >> spinning slash. And no, this was not your average crappy DRK. They were JP and woke up early in the morning just to level with us for a few day. Oh, and I don't even have my assault jerkin yet, plus this doesn't include wyvern dmg.

Originally posted by lieb39
"lets see your dumb ass be kicked right back to the curb...hell for shits and giggles...sub blm..."

I suggest you stop. Make anymore flames and you will be banned, your already running a very high warning point. I won't ban you incase you are not aware of it. However, anymore flames towards anyone and you will be automatically banned.

-lieb39

DO WHAT IS RIGHTEOUS FOR THE FORUMS LIEB, WE COUNT ON YOU

Originally posted by Kailea-D
by: Buuyon


I am not listening to a thing you say untill you stop talking rudely to me and insulting me.

Aww shit...sucks for me then huh?

Originally posted by Mephisto
Why you people say Dragoon sucks?

Because in a normal 6 man EXP setting, they do.

Yeah, uhm, instead of jumping on the bandwagon, maybe you should hop on the Get a Clue train. Lower and mid levels DRGs are incredibly efficient damage dealers. The reason they fall behind later on is a combination of equipment unavailable to them and the lack of any decent Weapon Skills besides Wheeling Thrust.

My personal beef with the DRG is, that i'm not sure if i'm supporting a Gilseller or not.

Around 80% of the Gilsellers i know are DRG. Also i won't join ever a party made by a Low Rank DRG unless in his comment stays something like (Bastok) R6 etc.

But i have to say, for me as THF is a DRG better then a DRK as a Trickbuddy, not only the Jump but also the no -DEF Gear that the DRKs using. A DRG can hold more hits then a DRK before he gets nailed.

You need sometimes a bit more time for SATAn when the mage or bard casting songs on you at the beginning what will you freeze for a second.

I have yet to his this magical "Drg = suck" lvl..

I have a lvl 75 HNM Drg "friend" who yields much respect in his HNM LS. I don't see him or anyone else complaining about his Dmg. (of course, he has Drk,Rdm,Thf,Sam,and War lvld to 37 and he uses them depending on what is needed of him)

80% of my PT invites come from 3.5-4k/hr JP PTs... none of them complain.

I think this whole "Drg suck" crap, is nothing but hot air, fueled by misinformation and ignorance. It's really funny how people ignore DoT (mostly NA, which I guess makes perfect sense. It's like they see that one "BIG hit" and forget about the 2 smaller hits that add up to out-Dmg it).

Everyone I confront who says "Drg suck", usually either had one or two bad experiences with very-very Gimped Drgs (no Acc gear, no skill) , or they turn out to be complete (and usually defensive) Asshats that have no idea what they are talking about. And no proof to support their claim.

I'm tired of this mentality... you would think by lvl 60+ people would know better.

I do find amusement in people that talk mad shit in /p when I'm invited, then stfu when I pull out 100%TP to their 45%, WS then still beat them to 100% for the SC. Or when I still pull hate in Pld, Drk or Rng, Blm, Whm, Rdm or Brd, PTs @ lvl 61. I out-dmg most DD with Wyvern Dmg...so when am I gonna feel the burden of sucking so bad?

stop talking shit and --> PROOVE IT :mad:

how can we prove it in words on a forum other than giving our opinions?

Nobody commented on my parsers?

I agree with the "BIG hit" comment.

What people usually see:

DRG uses Wheeling Thrust
Mob takes 450 points of dmg
DRK uses Spinning Slash
Mob takes 900 points of dmg
SC: Light!
Mob takes 900 points of dmg

And that's all they see. First of all, you can do SC dmg without another person. You can't include that in their dmg. Wyvern may die a lot on strong AE mobs, but when it's there, it does well. But honestly, people won't change their minds. If they think DRG sucks, there's nothing you can do. No point in wasting your time.

Ekoh (DRK/THF)
Total Fights: 66
Average Damage: 1130.53
Average Percent: 25.38
Average Accuracy: 74.58

Kainhighwind (DRG/WAR) me
Total Fights: 66
Average Damage: 1219.97
Average Percent: 28.01
Average Accuracy: 82.40




Do that with DRK/WAR and it will be TOTALLY different. DRK/THF closes renkei, to lock hate on tank. /WAR gives berserk and double attack to a DRK, /THF makes them do 500 extra dmg each renkei.... you CAN NOT compare /THF to /WAR, they have totally different purposes.

Actually you can compare! Thats like saying you cant compare a drg/war to a rng/nin because the rng/nin has to sub nin to stay alive. It's nigh on a strategic necessity, so it's free game to flak it down as a disadvantage.
You also seem to be neglecting Gs' un posted wyvern damage, which going on my own experience could've done anywhere from 300-400 damage. Do you honestly think that Drk/war has such a substantial advantage in DoT as to be able to overcome that?

Originally posted by Mephisto
Do that with DRK/WAR and it will be TOTALLY different. DRK/THF closes renkei, to lock hate on tank. /WAR gives berserk and double attack to a DRK, /THF makes them do 500 extra dmg each renkei.... you CAN NOT compare /THF to /WAR, they have totally different purposes.



How many DRK/WAR 67+ have you leveled with? Would you rather have a DRK/WAR or DRK/THF in your party?

Oh, and the reason why I didn't post the wyvern dmg is because it was pretty much dead the whole time. I can try the parser again with the wyvern as we'll be leveling off Tormentors.

the point is that DRK/THF is for hate control. DRG is dot. go parse DRG/THF vs DRK/THF and DRK will win.

Actually your point was that drk/war would've destroyed said drg in DoT. It failed.
Before that, your point was that drg sucked in typical six person pts. That ALSO seems to be failing. Now you're saying that the credibility of drk/thf is untouchable because they perform hate control. GG, from ub4r damage dealer to niche strategic job. Hows about actually conceding to what's right in front of your face?

Originally posted by Mephisto
the point is that DRK/THF is for hate control. DRG is dot. go parse DRG/THF vs DRK/THF and DRK will win.

Not entirely true.

My friend drk/thf which was lvl 67 at the time and I (lvl 66 drg at the time) were exping on Prossecionares(sp? lol) and Darters. I was drg/thf (had thf SJ because we actually had 2 drg's so 1 had to sub thf, then the drg got replaced with the drk and I was stuck with thf SJ) and due to the fact we didn't kill 2 Darters in a row very often (crawler->Darter->crawler most of the time) I was able to keep my wyvern alive. The drk had nice gear (heabergeon, snipersx2 etc) (I had feral jerkin snipersx2 etc, but was switching to AF body most of the time to keep my wyverns HP high) and according to my drk friend who was running the parser, I was outdamaging him (by a small margin tho) most of the time thanks to my wyvern on both crawlers and Darters.

His Spinning Slash would do about 700-900 dmg most of the time, my wheeling thrust would do about 500 dmg on crawlers (breath attack excluded) and about 600-700 dmg on Darter (breath attack excluded here too)

(We both used meat mithka's, it was before the nice new food got added ;) )

So it's not right to say drk will outdamage the drg, it depends more on mob type (being Darters was in my advantage of course), gear, lvl (even tho I was 1 lvl lower), etc.

I give up on trying to convince the general FFXI population of DoT. Maybe expecting everyone other than the Drg and Mnk community to add dmg/fight and compare, is asking entirely too much.

If everyone is only capable of grunting and getting excited when they see a big chunk of Mob HP leave the bar, (I'm sure that's what they're staring at. I wouldn't even expect them to understand numbers if they had their filters off.) let them.

If I had the patience to teach elementary math to mentally retarded children, I would be doing volunteer work in stead of playing FFXI.

Man , this will never end.

Anything DRG can do RNG can do better. I can do anything better than you!

Damagewise you can, but playing with a party in hate control? Nope. Running away from a higher level mob and getting away alive? Nope.

Humilty ? Nope.

I never seen a DRG one shotted but a goblin's bomb either. Our RNG was taken out from full HP the other day when a goblin dropped one.

Damagewise you can, but playing with a party in hate control? Nope. Running away from a higher level mob and getting away alive? Nope.

Humilty ? Nope.


Hate Control: Yes, at 60+ Sneak Attack + Trick Attack
Running away and living: Yes, /ja Flee
Humilty: No, RNG gives more to a party then DRG does, RNG can Wide Scan, hide from something (camolouge), does more damage.
DRG can hit pretty hard but not as hard, misses more often, more down time (wyvern needs to rest, even if u sacrifice HP the whm will need to heal you causing more MP causing more downtime)
DRG has more humilty when no one wants to invite them and someone checks the "LFG" search and see you there and checks again 4 hrs later and sees you there = "hahaha what a loser"


Without DRGs 2hr they are half the fighter (during a normal fight and not a fight when something goes wrong)
Without RNGs 2hr does not change a thing (during a normal fight and not a fight were something goes wrong)


so yeah, anything DRG can do, RNG can do better :thumbsup:

Note: I have nothing against DRG but I do have something against the people who think DRG are the best and better then the highest DMG Dealing job (if played right)-RNG.



EDIT: and no, RNG's defense isnt as good as DRG but when was the last time you saw a RNG attempt to tank? Also, I havnt seen any threads asking "why do people think RNG sux!!?!????". I don't think DRG suck, they very good job, dmg wise and trick buddy wise and hate control wise, I never said they were not good, there just not AS good as RNG is all.

ok I posted in it another drg thread ill post it here...

Well if you guys are wondering "why people say drg suck" etc etc here is the answer, as im getting higher up in the lvls obviously not what some consider to be high, I see that we can't compare to some other classes, at this lvl we start off with like 32k tnl, and that's pretty much a lot, people want to get it fast so a lot of parties consist of just rng, blm, rdm brds, etc. and where some have a drk for sata guillo, sam for sata yukikaze or a thf for sata DE, we aren't cared for much because for me anyways skewer does about 250-300, where there's is going up to about 450-600. I've talked to LS members they say that it is going to suck from 60+ and mostly I make my own parties, but I put up my flag for the heck of it while farming for a few hours, and not one /tell so im starting to believe them, im just going to keep making my own parties, even though they're not as good as most going on, and about wheeling thrust, that apparently is pretty shitty and only good for opening light sc's, according to them anyways but I will soon see for myself. That's pretty much all I can say for drg at this time, but as for pre 60 they do outdamage sam, drk and sometimes war.

And to tell the truth what really kills me is I've been told also, and I know for fact it's true, that a lot of HNM LS's do not accept drg, because they fail to see their damage worthwhile. This really sucks in my mind because I want to participate in endgame stuff but it is apparently going to be hard-impossible

Hey dont blame Drgs for bad job design, blame Square Enix. They never changed or added anything useful.

Rangers are over powered in the damage dept. Yep just damage dealers, not hate control.

I do blame SE but the thing is I've sent multiple mails and crap to them telling them the problem, even giving them links to threads and crap, personally I dont think that drg are that bad, because where I do maybe 84 a swing and the rng does 110-130 an arrow and 6-8 a dagger/fransisca, whatever, my wyvern does an unacknowledged 27 a swing, so when it adds up, yes rng do out damage them and noone should disagree with them, but they dont put them to shame the way people think, and rng have to put a lot of money into lvling where drg don't so thats part of the reason.

And to be politically correct Genuine the wyvern does about 1/3-1/4 the drg's damage. And almost never is my wyvern killed, and on the rare occasion that he is I think there's only been 2 times when my 2 hr wasnt up to recall him

you act like hate control is that vital in exp pt - with a good tank its entirely not needed. a pld with a BRD RDM backline can hold hate from rangers spamming, a good ninja with bard (and preferably smn) can also do that if they know what they're doing. sacrificing dmg for hate control is lame D; and if your tank sucks anyways, the PT is pretty crappy too ;x

It is important.
Unless you have the most perfect party that you dont get add-ons, you have an amazing damage specialist and you get all the drops. Your healer never loses mana and you get all the bonus damage too.
What a perfect party isnt it? Does that happen 100% of the time?

Must be a boring game you're playing.

DRG can hit pretty hard but not as hard, misses more often, more down time (wyvern needs to rest, even if u sacrifice HP the whm will need to heal you causing more MP causing more downtime)

Actually, this isn't quite true. We had a RNG in our static with *the* best gear possible, yet he still had a hard time hitting the mobs. Hrmm...my guess is that it had something to do with not having a BRD. Yeah, something about RNGs needing BRDs to really hit... Maybe that's why RNGs are able to actually hit the gods enough to be the top teir DD, having a BRD buff them...

I wonder how well other DD would do if BRDs would dedicate their time to buffing them the best, instead of the RNG? The RNG would probably still outdamage the other DD, but not by as large an amount.

Actually, this isn't quite true. We had a RNG in our static with *the* best gear possible, yet he still had a hard time hitting the mobs. Hrmm...my guess is that it had something to do with not having a BRD. Yeah, something about RNGs needing BRDs to really hit... Maybe that's why RNGs are able to actually hit the gods enough to be the top teir DD, having a BRD buff them...

Ill believe it when I see it.

Originally posted by Genuine
Ill believe it when I see it.

They switched from +str/ranged attack gear to acc gear and was STILL whinning the entire time that they needed a BRD.

Well for one thing is, arrows costs money, so why not maximize the cost/dmg output with a bard?

If i missing every second shot, i'll use cheaper arrows/bolts.

heh I love the people that still have that same mindset as most people did about a year ago......DRG is not as bad as it was said to be by the people that "tested" (yeah right) all the jobs and job combos........

It's funny how people just keep on defending a job, if it's weak then it's weak, let it go. If you like a job play it, it don't matter what people think about you.

On Topic: DRG/WHM for HNM @_@! erh

I notice you might like to dia or something and get some healing breathe, fight against Fafnir (OH OH Dragon mob, dragoon should have advantage) and let it hurricane wing about 2 times and say bye bye to your wyvern, Dragoon are not good damage dealer neither, fight aura statues and you'll get destroy by mnk drk or rng, but i do support those that play drg, if you like the job play it

Originally posted by Tru
It's funny how people just keep on defending a job, if it's weak then it's weak, let it go. If you like a job play it, it don't matter what people think about you.

On Topic: DRG/WHM for HNM @_@! erh

I notice you might like to dia or something and get some healing breathe, fight against Fafnir (OH OH Dragon mob, dragoon should have advantage) and let it hurricane wing about 2 times and say bye bye to your wyvern, Dragoon are not good damage dealer neither, fight aura statues and you'll get destroy by mnk drk or rng, but i do support those that play drg, if you like the job play it

hmm...noone cares.

hmm...noone cares.

then why is there this topic hm:spin:

Right, and you're not a RNG, noob ass DRK. BUt I havez respectz for peoplez who playz t3h unique jobz!1!111!
Same mindset, same response. Now go away.

Originally posted by SelfdestButton
Right, and you're not a RNG, noob ass DRK. BUt I havez respectz for peoplez who playz t3h unique jobz!1!111!
Same mindset, same response. Now go away.

Um... how is every job not unique?

Originally posted by SelfdestButton
Right, and you're not a RNG, noob ass DRK. BUt I havez respectz for peoplez who playz t3h unique jobz!1!111!

anyone have a translator for that???....and what does not being a ranger or being a DRK has anything do do with it.....

and you cant base a job off one type of mob...because every job has a mob type they have trouble with

Ok, noone got it. Nevermind.

IMO i think the only reason ppl dont like DRGs only on the sole fact that they dont cast magic and all they do is DD. in all reality DRGs may not hit as hard as DRKs but the acc. is well surpassed. as for all other DD jobs they have specific roles. (ex. - thf is used for hate control. war - can be a tank if need be.)

But samurai only DD and they're not bashed as much as Drg are. :(

Originally posted by XxEva02xX
IMO i think the only reason ppl dont like DRGs only on the sole fact that they dont cast magic and all they do is DD. in all reality DRGs may not hit as hard as DRKs but the acc. is well surpassed. as for all other DD jobs they have specific roles. (ex. - thf is used for hate control. war - can be a tank if need be.)
Samurai casts no magic and has weaker hits than a DRG (well sometimes, but talking in general from actualy weapon DMG and delay numbers). Their accuracy isn't as high as DRG either. I guess your response for "specific role" will be for more skillchaining which allows more magic bursting, etc. and being able to gain TP very fast.

When you see a SAM ripping two SC easily and doing 1000+ dmg with a THF sub i guess it makes them "cool". DRG doesnt usually have ultra big numbers, therefore i guess they arent as liked just because of the appeal of ultra high damage.

Then what about MNK? I dont know i havent pted with one for a LONG time..><; I can only guess that their bone killing skills and cooler looking WSs make it appealing? Bah -_-;

Originally posted by SelfdestButton
Right, and you're not a RNG, noob ass DRK. BUt I havez respectz for peoplez who playz t3h unique jobz!1!111!
Same mindset, same response. Now go away.

Originally posted by Kailea-D
anyone have a translator for that???....and what does not being a ranger or being a DRK has anything do do with it.....

and you cant base a job off one type of mob...because every job has a mob type they have trouble with

SelfdestButton was being S-A-R-C-A-S-T-I-C. geez. He was actually defending drg in a way. Saying that Tru was just spouting crap (Though I can't say I totally agree with that). People really need to brush up on Sarcasm 101.

The previous point was also that DRG are supposed to be good against dragons due to their traits. But apparently they don't make one bit of difference against dragon type HNMs like Fafnir.

My opinion is that Drg are great exp jobs before level 60. But they taper off in strength after that because they lack the necessary tools that other jobs may have.

Now when I say necessary, I'm talking about what 99% of the population percieves as being the setups that will net you the best possible exp. I'm sure a drg would do just fine in any party situation. But many see the drg slot as making them kill slower, preventing them from doing the bigger numbers they'd be able to do in order to take down mobs much quicker and making the exp slower than if someone else were in the slot.

Mind you I don't have any firsthand knowledge of any of this myself. But that's what everyone seems to be saying. And that's all the majority of us can really go by anyway until we get to that point.

Originally posted by Rougtan
im seeing Dragoon/Theif becoming a viable class combo for this reason....

with the theif sub, you get added evasion of im right. Since Dragoon's cant take hits, like theif's, they need to find another way to live.

edit: btw if anyone has played this combo and can give me some info that would be great. I thinkin of this for my character. Race is Elvaan btw.

When I was playing almost a year ago I was a DRG/THF. I was pretty good. I could keep up damage wise using Sneak Attack + Double Thrust and wyvern's breath compared to a thief using Sneak Attack +Trick Attack + Viper Bite. DRGS make a good SA+TA buddy, I was that alot >_> and I am sure my PT didn't mind the TH.

Im a relativly n00b player, hell only just got my subjob so let along an advace job, however its pretty obvious that all jobs are diffrent, but you cant claim that one isnt as good as another. It comes down to the major factor, "PERSONEL PREFRENCE" if you like to play one class, then play it. If you want to but that subjob in and everyone else screams no, do it anyway!

I plan to become a dragoon, {If i ever get to lvl 30} I like them, I also plan to sub RDM for it aswell, I like them to.

Originally posted by Horris
Im a relativly n00b player, hell only just got my subjob so let along an advace job, however its pretty obvious that all jobs are diffrent, but you cant claim that one isnt as good as another. It comes down to the major factor, "PERSONEL PREFRENCE" if you like to play one class, then play it. If you want to but that subjob in and everyone else screams no, do it anyway!

I plan to become a dragoon, {If i ever get to lvl 30} I like them, I also plan to sub RDM for it aswell, I like them to. I've used that combo for soloing but its not going to get you a party. As a Dragoon its hard enough getting one as DRG/WAR or DRG/THF never mind subbing a mage job.

First, allow me to introduce myself, a dragoon-loving roleplayer who's dragoon is lvl 32. :biggrin:

Alright, I did go through some posts, and skipped the rest.

I must say, it is clear dragoon is an unpopular class. I also admit it is not a necessary class like the white mage or the <insert your favorite tank> job. However, the dragoon is a very fun class to play. Mind you, I didn't exactly pick dragoon for any the above reasons, I really picked it because I heard from a friend on the same server (Fairy) as myself that dragoon was a very rare job in the high levels. So I wanted a challenge. I've heard numerous rumors about the dragoon class-some I have yet to witness, for instance, one is the dragoon doing almost no damage at higher levels-my favorite rumor I just loved being debunked was that the dragon cannot move through-out the zones with you. The only thing I don't like is Call Wyvern being the 2hr ability of dragoon, but I've gotten better-especially after getting Spirit Link.


My favorite party I ever organized was we had four dragoons (I forget the other three's subjobs though) and 2 white mages, was in Yhoater Jungle as well and we literally able to get 200exp in only a few minutes and that was without using any weapon skills.


The dragoon may not be a good tank-but then, it's not supposed to be. The dragoon class is an all-around class, slap on any sufficient-lvl'd subjob and it can do a good job. Of course, that's merely with a hume-race dragoon. I think (and probably many other dragoons probably agree with me) that though the dragoon is great as an all-around class, the best attribute to strengthen it is dexterity/accuracy followed by strength/attack, which is why I've started to rethink about my subjobs (I could use my whm, war, or thf as subjobs, but I'd have to level the thief again).




I've found some here speaking of the samurai too, I must say it is an interesting job atleast (though I personally hate the actual samurai). What makes the samurai so great is it's able to get TP so fast it can do a numerous number of weapon skills in any battle compared to all-else.



So, all-n-all, the job you like most ultimately determines your favorite attribute and style of play also. There are PROs and CONs to every job, Square Enix made it this way so no job can be better or more "important" than another ('cept the white mage, of course), to be fair atleast.

Off topic a bit but...WHMs arent more important than other mage jobs...we just excel at healing a little bit better than say the RDM. But RDMs can heal pretty fine definitely. Not to mention BLM/WHM and SMN/WHMs as well...they can heal pretty well...just not as well as RDM...same concept. Those mage jobs can do a good job too. Although i must say that Refeshing jobs are a much more different story :x

You can have a RDM BLM and BRD backline and have extremely fast exp, you just sacrifice the things a WHM can bring is all. Same with a WHM BLM RDM...you just sacrifice what a BRD and SMN can do....its just basically swapping in different mage jobs for different mage roles for different pros and cons...the only thing i feel a little little limited on is refreshing jobs. Doing WHM/BRD when theres no refresher(or when i feel up to it) isnt that bad but again its just another pro/con thing :/

EDIT: I guess it also the same for melee now that i think about it...change a PLD for a NIN and you can have faster but riskier exp (depends on mob though). Replace a RNG for a DRK and instead of more raw damage its more controlled and you get DRK Stun and magic...although some jobs have more impact than others when replaced.

Originally posted by lionx
Off topic a bit but...WHMs arent more important than other mage jobs...we just excel at healing a little bit better than say the RDM. But RDMs can heal pretty fine definitely. Not to mention BLM/WHM and SMN/WHMs as well...they can heal pretty well...just not as well as RDM...same concept. Those mage jobs can do a good job too. Although i must say that Refeshing jobs are a much more different story :x

You can have a RDM BLM and BRD backline and have extremely fast exp, you just sacrifice the things a WHM can bring is all. Same with a WHM BLM RDM...you just sacrifice what a BRD and SMN can do....its just basically swapping in different mage jobs for different mage roles for different pros and cons...the only thing i feel a little little limited on is refreshing jobs. Doing WHM/BRD when theres no refresher(or when i feel up to it) isnt that bad but again its just another pro/con thing :/

EDIT: I guess it also the same for melee now that i think about it...change a PLD for a NIN and you can have faster but riskier exp (depends on mob though). Replace a RNG for a DRK and instead of more raw damage its more controlled and you get DRK Stun and magic...although some jobs have more impact than others when replaced.

Meh, you just had to go and rebute my statement! J/K.

But seriously, I do support the white mage to be a better and defintly more important job, but alas my max job is at lvl 32. Next to dragoon, it is my favorite job and was very easy for myself (many those I've partied with who had higher-lvl'd jobs have said I made it look so easily, and many more became white mage after seeing me).

Want the know the real reason why DRG is bashed so much?

It's not because they suck in EXP parties. As a matter of fact, DRGs can put the hurt on in EXP parties. Between their wyverns and themselves, they are a source of damage over time that just keeps on giving (like a monk). Never mind that their WS are weak, they are primarily damage over time and they excel at this (unless fighting bones).

It's during end game activities that DRG falls flat on its face. They can't Stun like DRK, so they're bumped lower on the priority list. They can't boost chiblast and do 4 digit damage like monks. They can't match RNG damage output, or shadowbind, or barrage, or widescan, or do damage during kiting maneuvers, or generate TP nearly as fast, or do damage from out of AOE range.

In fact, they just end up doing Spirits Within. Then they quit going to sky and start levelling up RNG, tank job, or a mage job.

Maybe if they would give us our edge back as they hinted to in the flag quest we'd be better. We're Dragoons, not Wyveerns. Wyvern is cool and all but give us an upgrade or something.

yea, its definitely the end game that ruins drg. as far as the exp pt conversation above goes, i'm a pld and my favorite party is with brd, rdm healers. brd keeping me with double ballad and rdm refreshing me. i have so much mp i can just main heal.

i dont know but, evrey pt with dragon's i got bad exp... and we cant chain 5 , and i avoid exp with dragon on my rng because all dragon's ws eww weak and no good renkei with my rng, aslo dont like pt with dragon's on my blm .

dragon's gimp because all ws weak and all job's do better than dragon's so why invite DRG to exp pt? when there's SAM/MNK/WAR/THF/DRK/RNG seeking ?


i feel sorry for all dragon's , :thumb: i'm with you guys SE should fix you,
dunno if DRG seeking for merit point :wtf: too many job seeking between 73~75 , i heard DRG seek for day's and week's to get pt :depress: that's really sad ,why you guys just lvl another job?

I dunno, but i always hear rangers say 'if we're so overpowered, why don't you level up a ranger?'

I guess that's the train of thought that NA's have. I always love to experiment so I've never denied a class into a PT, even if I hated them in the past--because just maybe I was wrong to think so for some reason. E.g. take thf; they normally suck for endgame exp, but properly equiped with ranged weaponry and acc, they do very well.

:vent: I am so sick of hearing people say that dragoon suck, I myself am a dragoon and nobody ever tells me im a bad dragoon, currently lvl 51 I pt in various places and maybe miss once or twice a battle and do very good dmg not to mention Penta thrust (usualy 500-1253) so if you say all dragoon suck then please /tell Sobish on cerberus server so i can show you how wrong you are

:vent: I am so sick of hearing people say that dragoon suck, I myself am a dragoon and nobody ever tells me im a bad dragoon, currently lvl 51 I pt in various places and maybe miss once or twice a battle and do very good dmg not to mention Penta thrust (usualy 500-1253) so if you say all dragoon suck then please /tell Sobish on cerberus server so i can show you how wrong you are

Dragoons are fine in XP parties up through 65 or so, but saying that Penta Thrust is an awesome WS simply because it puts up comparable or better numbers to other WS at that level is incredibly short-sighted. The reason most people don't like Dragoons at higher levels (NOTE THE EMPHASIS HERE) is that Penta Thrust has terrible skillchain properties, and the remainder of Dragoon WS don't measure up at higher levels (Skewer, Impulse Drive, Wheeling Thrust are all lower max damage than most of their counterparts for other jobs).

The only time Gravitation (which is the only viable skillchain that Penta can form) is useful is the handful of levels where you're fighting Torama in Labyrinth of Onzozo, roughly 60-64. After that, it's totally useless.

End-game activities are covered in previous posts on this thread, but brief summary: No one needs/wants a dragoon for anything end-game. Period.


Icemage

:vent: I am so sick of hearing people say that dragoon suck, I myself am a dragoon and nobody ever tells me im a bad dragoon, currently lvl 51 I pt in various places and maybe miss once or twice a battle and do very good dmg not to mention Penta thrust (usualy 500-1253) so if you say all dragoon suck then please /tell Sobish on cerberus server so i can show you how wrong you areSomehow I doubt that damage is against an IT mob in an exp party. I'd love to be proved wrong but even with my DRG at 55 I've never come close to 1200+ damage with Penta Thrust, especially on an IT mob.

Doesn't mean DRG suck thouygh, I've matched RNGs in their 50's , then only time I started to fall behind was on WS damage once they got Sidewinder or Slug Shot and I got Vorpal Thrust.

Dragoons are fine in XP parties up through 65 or so, but saying that Penta Thrust is an awesome WS simply because it puts up comparable or better numbers to other WS at that level is incredibly short-sighted. The reason most people don't like Dragoons at higher levels (NOTE THE EMPHASIS HERE) is that Penta Thrust has terrible skillchain properties, and the remainder of Dragoon WS don't measure up at higher levels (Skewer, Impulse Drive, Wheeling Thrust are all lower max damage than most of their counterparts for other jobs).

The only time Gravitation (which is the only viable skillchain that Penta can form) is useful is the handful of levels where you're fighting Torama in Labyrinth of Onzozo, roughly 60-64. After that, it's totally useless.

End-game activities are covered in previous posts on this thread, but brief summary: No one needs/wants a dragoon for anything end-game. Period.


Icemage

Dragon's only lack strong WS 65+, but that's not really an issue. Dragoon's have a much better DoT to make up for it. In terms of overall damage in exp parties, Dragoons deal just as much total damage as any melee job. If they aren't, then the Dragoon doesn't really know how to play their job.

As for endgame, our LS has just as many Dragoons as any other job. Again, they don't put out the WS numbers that some jobs can, but you can't say they're useless against gods. My brother is always one of the top 3 melee damage dealers on the gods(excluding Kirin). He's always in on Kirin fights now too. He uses SAM or THF sub and opens/closes light with our Dark Knight. With the MB's that BLMs get off, Kirin dies REALLY fast. Who needs RNGs(of course, 3-4 RNGs to counter Kirin's regen is handy)? And you can't complain about TP gain. They had TP so fast that they were waiting on Kirin to stop and cast a spell more often than waiting on TP. That was with only 4 people making 2 SC's for MB's.

Don't discount Dragoon's power in endgame. People just haven't been able to see past their own misconceptions of the job. Remember how SAM was thought to suck back in the day as well? Well guess what, people now know that SAM is just as good as any other melee. People have even found that SAM/RNG is good on Kirin and gods. Not as good as Rangers, but better than just meleeing.

Don't discount Dragoon's power in endgame. People just haven't been able to see past their own misconceptions of the job. Remember how SAM was thought to suck back in the day as well? Well guess what, people now know that SAM is just as good as any other melee. People have even found that SAM/RNG is good on Kirin and gods. Not as good as Rangers, but better than just meleeing.

Pertinent point boldfaced for emphasis. Nobody "just melees" in HNM fights because its inefficient and often suicidal.

There is no particular reason to use a dragoon instead of any other melee that can open/close a skillchain end-game.

Wheeling Thrust is overshadowed by the stronger, equally (or more) accurate Arching Arrow/Empyrial Arrow/Heavy Shot from rangers, and lacks the power (and TP on demand) of Tachi: Kasha, if you want to make Light skillchains.

Impulse Drive is a pale shadow of the damage that Asuran Fists deals, if you want to open/close Dark. Certainly no stronger than Evisceration from a THF, and that's not saying much.

Granted, if you don't happen to have monks, samurai, or rangers around to make these skillchains, you could always use a dragoon... but how many good HNMLS do you see without the above jobs?

Yes, you CAN use a dragoon for these things, but it is neither necessary, nor especially desirable to do so.

Other melee jobs bring better tools to fights:

Rangers can Shadowbind, use Utsusemi when they pull aggro, and also run faster than dragoons with either crimson greaves or strider boots in kiting fights like Kirin, not to mention they can WS from a much longer range.

Samurai can /THF without giving up their TP gain, so if you use them for SC, they will always land their WS. If a DRG uses /THF, they're stuck with no way to gain TP besides inefficient methods like Opo Necklace or Icarus Wing, and if they use /SAM, they're still limited to 1 WS every 2 minutes due to only 60% TP gain on /SAM Meditate, and are prone to missing their WS without Sneak Attack.

Monks can Chi Blast for more damage than any WS, do it at range, and never miss (not to mention they're a lot less fragile than dragoons if they do happen to pull aggro).

WAR deal reasonable damage, and can afford to sub NIN to keep themselves out of trouble (and even tank if the circumstances are right).

DRG brings zero intangibles to end-game fights, unless you you'd like to argue that being able to High Jump/Super Jump away from trouble is useful on the off chance that they ever get aggro (experienced HNMers will understand the sarcasm here).


Icemage

There is no particular reason to use a dragoon instead of any other melee that can open/close a skillchain end-game.

And there's no reason to use any other melee over DRG. All depends on your LS's strategy.

Wheeling Thrust is overshadowed by the stronger, equally (or more) accurate Arching Arrow/Empyrial Arrow/Heavy Shot from rangers, and lacks the power (and TP on demand) of Tachi: Kasha, if you want to make Light skillchains.

Though, Wheeling Thrust doesn't depend on SA to make it hit for big numbers. All by itself, no buffs, Wheel Thrust can break 200 damage just fine. I'm not sure how other WSes compare unbuffed(no berserk, Last resort, soul eater, SA, etc.). My guess is that they're all about the same.

Accuracy hasn't been an issue for us. Our RNGs prefer to spam Sidewinder/Slugshot as soon as they get TP anyways, to make full use of their TP. Waiting for an SC means they have to sit on TP, and slow down their damage output.

As for TP being "on demand", that's not really an issue when you're waiting on Kirin to stop and cast so you can make an SC.

Impulse Drive is a pale shadow of the damage that Asuran Fists deals, if you want to open/close Dark. Certainly no stronger than Evisceration from a THF, and that's not saying much.

Pretty much every Darkness opener sucks on HNMs. Not much you can do about it.

Granted, if you don't happen to have monks, samurai, or rangers around to make these skillchains, you could always use a dragoon... but how many good HNMLS do you see without the above jobs?

Yes, you CAN use a dragoon for these things, but it is neither necessary, nor especially desirable to do so.

The jobs don't matter so much as the skill of the players, their equipment, and their ability to work as a team. If you can't do any of that, the no job can make you worthy of being in an HNM LS. People simply think DRG sucks, so no LSes really want to even give them a chance. The common belief is that DRGs suck, so they won't even consider that they can be good, just like any other melee.

DRG brings zero intangibles to end-game fights, unless you you'd like to argue that being able to High Jump/Super Jump away from trouble is useful on the off chance that they ever get aggro (experienced HNMers will understand the sarcasm here).

DRGs do lack any direct additional benifits other than plain damage. Does that mean that they can't do anything? Nope. Not stealing hate is an advantage in itself. All HNMers should know that the less damage people take, the better. There is the wyvern, but it's contribution is iffy. It can add 1000 damage or more to the DRG's total damage output. Whether or not people consider it an advantage is up to the individual LSes.

There's a difference between being 97% efficiency with DRGs, and 99% efficient using all RNGs. It's called fun. If we can beat Kirin in an hour with using DRGs and any other jobs, then there's no reason to leave a DRG out. Of course, you don't have to use them either. If all you want is super fast fights to get the drops, then you're missing out on the fun of fighting. There's more to HNM fights than just the drops.

*Edit*
I forgot to add that the SA WS from DRKs and SAMs isn't always the best way to go as well. If they only do SA + WS(since there's not always time to add in TA as well), those jobs tend to grab hate. Same with the MNKs Chi blasting. How helpful is it if those people keep grabbing hate and dying? They're just an MP drain then. Also have to waste time switching in someone new, if you even have the people. The MNKs should be able to get away, but the /THF DRKs and SAmM aren't so lucky. All Kirin has to do is bind them with a Tail Smash(or whatever), then do Deadly Hold. There, dead DRK or SAM that needs raised. If they live, then a ton of MP was dumped into healing them. If healers spend too much MP too fast, then they'll lack the MP to recover from a bad Stonega IV or Astral Flow. The healers will also need to log and reset hate more often, thus requiring more time with less healers for those fluke situations.

There's 2 players with level 75 DRG levelled in my HNMLS, and neither one ever chooses to come to HNM activities with DRG. It's not that we don't have the option of using DRGs. There is just no reason to have them be inefficient melees when there are simply better options.

It's all about flexibility, and DRG has none at end-game. You say Wheeling Thrust is 200+ guaranteed damage against normal enemies and I agree, but SA Tachi: Kasha scores at least middle 3-digit to occasionally 4-digit damage on enemies that don't have absurd physical defense (Aspidochelone, but then, all melees are equally pointless there other than basic skillchain for peanuts damage to set up magic bursts, and not even Wheeling Thrust will save you there; at that point it comes down to TP gain and accuracy).

Kirin is all well and good (I suppose), but it isn't the only thing you fight at end-game. Bring a dragoon to a ground King fight like Nidhogg and see how far you get. Yes, you "can"... but would you want to if that player has any other job to choose from? Not. Likely. It isn't that you can't make the job work in HNM situations, we've done it before, back when one of our DRGs only had that job levelled, and you can improvise, to be sure; nevertheless, DRG is extremely unidimensional and limited in application, from long personal experience.

I won't even go into why you would factor a wyvern into any damage calculation on HNMs. Pretty much anything except NQ Behemoth will KO a wyvern in 1-3 AoEs, and it'd be a miracle to see it survive long enough to deal 1000 damage on, say, Fafnir or King Behemoth.

As for the pulling hate issue, any time you've got people worried about dying at an NM fight, you're already in trouble. Bring enough healers to cover your expected losses for your chosen strategy, or don't come at all.


Icemage

200+ damage from Wheeling Thrust just shows how much DRG get screwed over later on. I can do that much damage from a Double Thrust.

I, personally, have seen a large number of samurai, rangers, and warriors that could not compare to the damage output ive done in the past week. Ive been drg/thf ever since lv 30 and never once has anyone complained about me. With SA Double Thrust i do 200+ damage to crawlers in CN, and outdamage the SAM every time. I use Meat Jerky because its cheap and it works. I have battle gloves... yes those... at lv 37 and they are wonderful. 2 balance rings and 2 Beetle+1 earrings make DRG/THF all the worthwhile. Spike necklace helps too. My average damage with DRG at 37 is about 55 to Crawlers. The rangers back when i was lv 25, kept using crossbows and only dealt maybe 30-40 damage while i was whooping the mandies with 50+ dmg. DRG should never be thought as a bad DD. I for one do equal damage with my Friend Sangheilli, DRK 36, when we use different foods. His attack maybe 175 ave without everything, and mine about 150, but some how we output nearly the same damage. I can only assume that people are propelled by the community to say DRG suck... I havent played drg before the Penta Thrust Nerf, but even with that, DRG do way more damage than a petty samurai for the simple fact that... DRG with the right gear, gains TP faster than most jobs. i get about 12-14 tp per hit, and i hit almost every time, thats 100+ tp in 30 seconds just about. And what is the Delay on Meditate? thank you and have a nice day. This is the wonderful once a life time comment by your fellow DRG Suragata of Server Quetzalcoatl. ^.-

I, personally, have seen a large number of samurai, rangers, and warriors that could not compare to the damage output ive done in the past week. Ive been drg/thf ever since lv 30 and never once has anyone complained about me. With SA Double Thrust i do 200+ damage to crawlers in CN, and ou