Monk/Paladin

[Flameboy8414]

I wanted to know if this would be a good combo. is it? since monks are weak on defensive and the paladins are defensive. plus the high hp and speed? any other comments?
:handsdown

[Ultimate]

Originally posted by Flameboy8414
I wanted to know if this would be a good combo. is it? since monks are weak on defensive and the paladins are defensive. plus the high hp and speed? any other comments?
:handsdown

Yes, it would be an excellent tanker, but it would tank better as PAL/MNK.
And, MNK hasn't a low def.

[lun4tic]

I was also thinking about this, because I like Monk, and I like Paladin, and I don't have the expansion...

They would both get a good Vit increase, and I guess MNK would get a little more Def and maybe a bit of Atk from Paladin too.

And if Paladin subbed monk it'd get reverse, which can only help tankers, and depending on how far you go with monk, Chakra, another healing ability.

[Maxim]

You'd be able to get more HP if you subbed WAR instead of PLD. And you won't get much MP from subbing PLD since they get very little MP to begin with, so being able to cure isn't going to save the party when you're in a crisis. And monks wouldn't be able to "tank" unless they subbed WAR anyway for the taunt ability.

The same for PLD/MNK. They won't be able to draw enough hate other than by curing, but that wastes MP if it's overused. Drawing hate by curing isn't instant like Taunt either so the only support option for PLD is WAR.

[Haplo]

I don't see the reasoning behind a Pld without Provoke.

[Mathis]

"I don't see the reasoning behind a Pld without Provoke."

Well, you don't really need provoke when you're soloing.
:p

[lun4tic]

Haplo has a point.

But what about MNK/PAL? You'd have to get a def and vit advantage from that, not to mention the healing skills.

[breal777]

Originally posted by Mathis
"I don't see the reasoning behind a Pld without Provoke."

Well, you don't really need provoke when you're soloing.
:p

You can't solo effectively after level 15

and to lun4tic, WAR would be a better sub for MNK

[lun4tic]

Or would it?

And stop giving me this war is better sub then anything crap.

[logar]

I guess it comes down to getting the most out of job/sub.

MNKs will never really be defensive, you just don't have the armor for it .. and can't use a shield or parry to stop attacks. Remember that an effective parry or shield block stops all damage from getting through while MNKs block just reduces the damage you recive.

MNK/PLD looks kind of cool, but will it really be effective? Let's set the benchmark to lvl30.

At that point your MNK/PLD will have the following skills available to him/her:

From PLD
--Holy Circle .. not bad for some protection ..when hunting undead
--Shield Bash .. what shield??
--Undead Killer .. again, not bad ....for undead
--Phys Defense UP .. sweet, especially since MNKs armor is not "all that"
From MNK
--Hundred Punches .. best offensive 2hr in game
--Accumulate .. nice for 1 hit
--Dodge .. helps survival a bit
--Concentrate .. must have .. considering 2 hits per attack from MNK
--2 x Martial Arts .. extra speed is always good
--Counter .. give back some lovin
--HP Boost .. nothing wrong here

While Undead Killer will help you with undead .. the remaining skills focus on defense which leaves you with the MNK skills for offense. Not even going to touch on spells since the MP you have will be so low that pple will stare and laugh.....

Now .. if you had WAR as a sub, you would have access to these:
--Taunt .. eh, good for emergencies i guess .. or when you get tired waiting for the mob to stop running
--Berserk .. this + concentrate + 100 fists = oh baby
--Phys Defense UP .. same as above, sweet to have for MNKs
--Resist Virus .. never hurts to have some resistances

So with WAR you still get the general defense boost and a resistance, but you also get berserk ...and since you hit twice per attack, well .. you do the math. Taunt, well .. you will probably only use this once in a while .. when your PT lacks a decent tank or the tank is having problems. Overall tho, with /WAR you get a bit more "bang for the buck" at lvl30 ....gets better down the line tho.

With /PLD, down the line, you will notice that the skills enchance your defense, but .. lack of armor, use of shield, and parry will stop you from being an effective tank and the lack of offensive support skills will stop you from being as effective on offense.

Not saying that MNK/WAR is the only option here, but it does offer quite a few nice skills down the line(Defender, War Cry, Double Attack, Phys. Attack Up)

Personally I also use MNK/THF .. the combo also gives you quite a few skills to play with .. not as combat orianted, but great for hunting trasure and doing some general farming for money.

Would love to try Samurai as sub(or main) .. but alas....

What it comes down to I guess .. if you like the idea, give it a go and tell us how it turns out. Might as well get all the experimanting done with in beta....

[Mathis]

"Or would it?

And stop giving me this war is better sub then anything crap."

They're just telling the truth. Warrior IS the best sub for almost every melee class because of provoke and their other useful abilities.

[lun4tic]

Their abilities aren't useful at all. Taunt is the only useful ability if you plan on tanking alot but thats not a monk's job. Thats a warrior/paladin job. The other abilities are just for show or amusement since each has it's ups and downs.

Warrior does make a good sub job, but just doesn't compliment the monk's power. They attack twice so they should take advantage of the dark knight's extra power and use that as a sub.

You could also be an evlaan monk and sub white mage. Your extra mind will help with the spells and chakra.

[logar]

MNK/WHM .. eh?

Nice on paper .. but .. try it then come back and tell me how effective that extra MND was... ...or how effective the combination was for that matter... ...<sight>...

Anyway...

MNK/DRK does look attractive ...have been considering that myself for pure damage output .. that or Samurai in there somewhere....

Thing is .. with MNK/DRK you will get 2 x Phys Attack Up and with MNK/WAR you will have 1 x Phys Attack Up .. difference? .. eh, try it .. no point trying to reason with you until you do....

As far as other skills from /DRK and /WAR

- Arcane Circle .. eh? .. though we were interested in damage output .. Warriors basic Defense Up will give better results overall…
- Last Resort = Berserk ...basically... ...I do wonder how these buffs stack however...
- Weapon Bash = Boost ...no?
- Darkness = …suicidal? for MNKs with their "awesome" armour...
- Physical Attack Ups .. every little bit will help so I do like this...
- Resist Paralyse .. always nice
- Arcana Killer .. eh…

What makes MNK/WAR the "killer" combo? .. well .. personally .. I like the skill combos; Double Attack skill ...at lvl51 as MNK you get Kick .. which translates to potential 3 hits per turn. At that point, if WAR is your sub, you also have the Double Attack skill which in turn translates to potential of combined for 4 hits per round .. 5 hits if you get lucky on the Counter ... add Berserk to that and .. well .. think about it for a few sec........

...still thinking eh?.....

Oh .. btw .. not going to bring up spells on this for the /DRK .. why? .......

I might be wrong on this whole thing .. but .. well .. I'll let you prove that, pls include some useful info for the public tho... ...that's what these Forums are for, no?

[Mathis]

"Their abilities aren't useful at all. Taunt is the only useful ability if you plan on tanking alot but thats not a monk's job. Thats a warrior/paladin job. The other abilities are just for show or amusement since each has it's ups and downs.

Warrior does make a good sub job, but just doesn't compliment the monk's power. They attack twice so they should take advantage of the dark knight's extra power and use that as a sub.

You could also be an evlaan monk and sub white mage. Your extra mind will help with the spells and chakra."

You forgot about double attack. And notice how I said ALMOST every melee class. I know warrior isn't too great for a monk unless the monk is supposed to be an emergency tank.

[lun4tic]

I don't think anybody will be subbing War and get double attack out of it.

[logar]

I hope that its not JUST for the Dble attack skill .. but when, and if, you do get to the lvl where its available .. you will also have several other skills there to use.

What it comes down to I guess is how bad do you want to specialize. Having /DRK as your sub, you WILL have quite the potential for damage output .. but .. you will have 0 skills for defense support from the sub. With /WAR you at least get the Phys. Def. Up fairly early in the game .. and Defender later on; you will also have skills to enchance your attacks.. ie. Berserk, Double Attack, Physical Att. Up.

Basically .. if you plan on effectively gaining xp ONLY by PT'ing then MNK/DRK looks VERY attractive .. but if you do want to be able to hold your own solo .. then /WAR looks better for the mix of skills that is offered.

P.S.
Please no more blank statements...
ie:
"Warrior does make a good sub job, but just doesn't compliment the monk's power. They attack twice so they should take advantage of the dark knight's extra power and use that as a sub."

Please state WHAT the "extra power" is exactly .. and make a comparison showing the "advantage". Also, if you could, please state the reasons for the why's..
..ie:"doesn't compliment the monk's power"

Not saying that what you are saying is wrong, but, I would like to see some reason behind the statements...

[lun4tic]

Think about it. Man, your definition of a blank statement must be very loose.

If you hit twice, why go with the weaker sub?

And soloing will be hard no matter what sub you choose. Ultimately you won't be soloing, but PTing.

[logar]

Aye .. I like the MNK/DRK too .. at least on paper .. but .. what makes /DRK that much better then /WAR?

Is the the boost in stats that the MNK will get from one and not the other? Is the the skills that the MNK will be able to make use of? .. which skills and how do they compare between the choices for subs?

Give me some details dude, don't just say "weaker sub", "doesn't compliment the monk's power", or "dark knight's extra power". Tell my WHY its a "weaker sub" then DRK. Explain HOW it "does not compliment the monk's power" while /DRK does. Tell me WHAT the "dark knight's extra power" is .. that the WAR lacks and what a huge benifit it will be for MNK. You know .. ups and down .. case study if you will .. something to sink our teeth into.

When I say "blank statement" I don't mean that you are completely wrong on the general idea .. just mean that a person can't really take it seriously if you don't really support it with some info ...heck, can't even turn it into a constructive argument that will present a reader with usefull info....

P.S. ..side note on Boost(Attack Up) skill from MNK... ..also if others could comment on this please....

Using it increases the Attack rating by 10 for one hit(one punch). I have noticed that this does not actually contributes to the damage from that attack .. actually .. more often then not the first hit that has the Boost on it lands for less damage then the subsequent hits.... ..any input on this would be greatly appreciated.

[Cat]

Originally posted by logar
MNKs will never really be defensive, you just don't have the armor for it .. and can't use a shield or parry to stop attacks. Remember that an effective parry or shield block stops all damage from getting through while MNKs block just reduces the damage you recive.

Armor is not your only level of defense. In beta my mithra MNK/THF had such high evade that monsters rarely contacted with me, I actually pulled monsters most of the time while our wars stayed back and saved our whm MP. Counter also offers some defense to physical attacks, and guard and a high vitality (also the HP bonus) yes when monks get hit they take a bit more damage but trust me they aren't lacking in defense.

[Mithrael]

but trust me they aren't lacking in defense.
By level 40, mnks are so far behind war and pld in defense it's not even funny... I'm trying to remember the exact number, but i can't. I do remember this much thouhg...

In my last week, i was in a quest party to fei yin with a lv.40 warrior in Royal Squire's armor and other similar lv.40 gear for the pieces that weren't in the right level range. Without defender or protect, his defense was 20 points higher than mine. I had Beat cesti (vit+2) Combat Caster's Cloak, RSE pants (which is admittedly def-2 from the best pants i could've had), RSE gloves (again, def-1 jfrom the highest def gear available to me), merc. cpt. belt (def+3), a bomb ring (def+2), and socks. Even with all of that, i still was 20 points behind in defense >.< i could have added another vit+ ring or earrings, but i'd still be way behind. And that was even after i had an additional 5 levels on the war.

With all of my really good equipment, my defense was not even much higher than WHM (about 10 points )or RDM, and even on par with RDMs who had a really good shield. I imaging the warrior passive defense up would make up for some of that, but definitely not enough to make monk a viable tanks, as the gap in equipment only grows larger with lv. 50 gear.

About the questions about boost:
The effectiveness of boost increases as your attack increases. I think the ammount boosted is a percentage of your total (about 10%). perhaps the minimum is 10 (i don't remember how much boost increased my attacks in early levels)? anyway, my attack was 185 by the time i was 45/22, and boost added 18+ to my attack each time i did it. After squeezing in 11 boosts in my 3-minute period, my Chi Blast did about 270pts of damage. 11 is the maximum number of times you can boost before losing the effect, since boost wears off in 3 minutes, and the delay on boost is 15 seconds.

It seems like Chi Blast damage is the difference between your accumulated and your base attacks plus 30 base damage. (boosted attack - base attack + 30) So in my experience, if you boost once for 18, chi blast is about 48pts. damage, if you boost 11x, it's about 260 (each boost is slightly higher than the last as they stack and the next boost is a percentage of your attack). I imagine by lv. 60, that output would be much high, as your attack would be at least 45pts. higher. I have never seen chi blast wear off, and it's a great way to start a really tough fight :) While exploring Ro Meave (sp?) in our last days, i accumalted and chi blasted a killing weapon for 260-something, taking off a noticable chunk of it's hp. After that, were unable to damage it ^^; those few attacks we landed on it hit for 0. Someone cast aero2 on it and landed a stunning blow for 1pt of damage .

I really can't comment on boosted attacks being weaker than non-boosted attacks. That wasn't my experience at all. Maybe your boosted attacks were hitting it while it had some sort of guard skill on?

Regarding MNK/DRK: This topic is pretty stale, looks like 2-3 months for most of the posts, but i really liked playing MNK/DRK. I did a crazy amount of damage in parties. However, it certainly doesn't help defense any. I know a lot of people on this board disagree with me on this, and they may be right once you get to level 60 or so. I can't really comment on that, since i never reached level 60. But DRK definitely increased my strength and attack. My DRK spells were not completely wasted either. Bind saved me a few times when i was out and about and got aggroed. I also tried to drain once per battle if we were fighting something that was weak against darkness, just to save the whm that 24mp they'd spend casting cure2 on me. It gave me a lot more to do and think about while leveling up, which i can't honestly say about subbing war. If you are /war and can't taunt, you just kinda sit there and watch your tp guage >.< that's too boring for me.

Oh yeah, and there isn't a single wasted skill with MNK/DRK. I always carried around a 2-hd staff and had a macro to use weapon bash to get out of tight spots with gobbie bombs :D

Tell me WHAT the "dark knight's extra power" is ..
Dark's Attack Power Up passive is gained more than once (much like mnk's hp+ and MA passives) so they stack up to be more than war's. Also, last resort while shorter in length has a greater benefit than berserk or warcry. I usually did Last Resort+Boost+Weapon skill. I wish i had the chance to try soul eater as a mnk. The coolest active abilities seem to be somewhat nerfed as a sub (meditate & sneak attack for example) so i don't know if Soul Eater is too (often called darkness on this board) but if it isn't, it should be super powerful since monks have the highest hp. Of course, it'll probably draw too much hate to be really useful, but soul eater+last resort+boost+raging fists (5-hit weapon skill) should bring the beast to it's knees.

sorry, i tend to ramble in the morning, hope that all makes sense.