problem with red mages

[Terikan]

ok, I have seen a lot of talk about subjobs, and it makes me feel a little ill, as what I see, I don't like.

Yes, we would be best with whm or blm for a sub... but if you sub one of those, consider the following questions:

If a blm/whm came along, could you as a rdm/whm really offer anything unique? The answer is, not really, maybe this 1 thing, or 2, but overall, blm/whm would be better...

Same with a whm/blm compared to a rdm/blm. What's the point?

Why level 3 jobs when you can just level 2 and get way more advantages then disadvantages?

This is why there is little point to playing a red mage in my opinion, at least if all you are going to do is sub another mage. subbing dark and palidan is also pointless, since their spells already come very late, and red mages aren't fighters.

So is there any REALLY good sub for a redmage that would give it a real edge and not just a few trinkets?

I was thinking about bard as a subjob, it seems like it may actually contribute a lot to a redmage, yet not just be a subpar copy of another job combination. Some people have said otherwise. I really don't know enough about bard to know for sure.

I thought that red mages could fight ok, but everyone else on the boards seems to disagree. I mean, does theif really add nothing that a pt would want? even if you go on the offensive during pulls instead of healing? don't we get backstab still, or is that not available for a subjob? I thought ninja would be cool, with 2 swords, but naysayers say 'nooo, can't fight, don't try it, don't do it, be with the crowd!'.

so... what to do. I'm thinking of scrapping my red mage in favor of a blackmage/whitemage combination, or maybe trying redmage/bard. I've heard it's a busy job already, but not sure why since I have no experience with it. Other bards I've played in other games you just play a song and it goes for a certain period of time, letting you do other things.

Maybe you guys can come up with advantages of a red/whm over a blm/whm. Maybe we don't die as fast? I dunno. Feeling very sad about this game right now. That kinda has to do with how many times I die per hour to things while trying to travel around also. I have been level 13 for a couple days now, and I play like 8 hours a day.

<sigh>

[Terikan]

well, at this rate I won't be high level for a very long time.

and if it is how you say, then why do people come down on others who want a fighter sub that's non-warrior? warriors are so vanilla it's not even funny, I don't want anything to do with it, I want a rdm/thief, but from two other threads I read, they are like "well that combo sucks n00b". WTF.

And yeah, I'm sure someone will chime in that since I die so much I must suck, well damn me all to hell then I guess....

[TBoTB]

Originally posted by StarvingArtist
Job combo usefulness is relative to the task. Level up PTs want everyone to be as effective as they can be, makes sense. Attackers can't go wrong with a /War SJ since it gives alot of abilities to help.. well attack. Some attackers can make use of /Thf, /Sam, /Nin if it benefits them in another way.

A Rdm/Thf isn't as efficient since it doesn't help at all on the magic side, and added Dex/Agi/sneak attack won't make it a better fighter. That's not to say it's not bad when you are getting money on your own or want to use Flee to travel around a bit faster. (like doing quests where you just need to travel and not fight anything).

Not everything is a level up PT though. Skill up, missions, quests, money hunts, AF/Coffer/Summon tours... There's more flexibility and not as much job constraints usually because of sheer numbers + force. I've been in skill up PTs where everyone uses /whm as SJ. Even I toss on /thf SJ for my Whm sometimes.

Dying happens to all of us. If you die alot and don't learn from it and keep on dying even with advice, well.. can't help you there. If you can learn and adjust according to your strengths/weaknesses then I would imagine that makes anyone a better player in the long run.

ROFL, If you were selling cars, i would have bought ten from you *all used and probally under 1k ^_~* but any how, all that has me thinking about going RDM.... well for Kaiteryoustar anyhow, since thf aint cutting it right now for me, i have a lv18thf on terianstar and it took alot to get there*~ That is one good slab of info, Hopefully a mod might come by and sticky this ^_~


....that info is so good, i gotta give you a hug *gives Estya a friendly hug*

[Terikan]

already heard the arguments against rdm/thf. okay, I am just saying that I'm really not happy with that. I'm tired of not being able to play what I want to play or get threatened with not getting a PT.

let me ask a couple things.

why won't dex and agi help a red mage in a pt? what if I am hitting the monster with a sword? or with a dagger? won't it help then? Jei said in one of his threads that we attack mainly, maybe he wasn't thinking when he said that, not sure.

But agi or dex or something affects your evasion right? and dex usually helps in accuracy in these types of games, agi usually helping attack speed. So it would seem to be a nice bonus.

And rdm can raise, at a certain level, can they not? well, if they are the only raiser in a party, and the party knows it's doomed, then the rdm/thf can use flee to get away and then come back to raise. better than everyone just dying and having to restart, and even better than returning to home point in order to escape using the escape spell.

so it seems like a good thing to me. and even when you are in a pt, you may still want to steal or whatever, so I don't see why a pt's needs should always come above your own, we are all paying the same (lol free at the moment) to play the game aren't we?

well, screw it, I'm doing rdm/thf, and if I'm a gimp, then so be it, if people don't want to group, so be it. I guess that's just how it will be.

and you know what i've learned from dying? not to travel until you are high level. apparently square expects us to sit in one spot leveling till we are 20 or 30 before going anywhere new. that's going to turn a LOT of people off.

and the quests and missions have no recommended levels, so you never know if you are getting in too deep until you run into a pack of five 'tough' mobs that are blocking your path.

but anyways, that's off-topic.

[TBoTB]

Originally posted by Terikan
already heard the arguments against rdm/thf. okay, I am just saying that I'm really not happy with that. I'm tired of not being able to play what I want to play or get threatened with not getting a PT.

let me ask a couple things.

why won't dex and agi help a red mage in a pt? what if I am hitting the monster with a sword? or with a dagger? won't it help then? Jei said in one of his threads that we attack mainly, maybe he wasn't thinking when he said that, not sure.

But agi or dex or something affects your evasion right? and dex usually helps in accuracy in these types of games, agi usually helping attack speed. So it would seem to be a nice bonus.

And rdm can raise, at a certain level, can they not? well, if they are the only raiser in a party, and the party knows it's doomed, then the rdm/thf can use flee to get away and then come back to raise. better than everyone just dying and having to restart, and even better than returning to home point in order to escape using the escape spell.

so it seems like a good thing to me. and even when you are in a pt, you may still want to steal or whatever, so I don't see why a pt's needs should always come above your own, we are all paying the same (lol free at the moment) to play the game aren't we?

well, screw it, I'm doing rdm/thf, and if I'm a gimp, then so be it, if people don't want to group, so be it. I guess that's just how it will be.

and you know what i've learned from dying? not to travel until you are high level. apparently square expects us to sit in one spot leveling till we are 20 or 30 before going anywhere new. that's going to turn a LOT of people off.

and the quests and missions have no recommended levels, so you never know if you are getting in too deep until you run into a pack of five 'tough' mobs that are blocking your path.

but anyways, that's off-topic.

ok, first,

a pt needs three things *maybe four* but three main things,
1. is the tank
2. is someone to heal the tank
3. the ability for the tank to keep healer safe.
4. *the forth would be support IE bard/blm*although blm could be consider a main part of pt as well* and any other job that attacks well*
the only way to accomplish the above is to be war or have war subjob, i rdm/thf cant taunt a monster away from a healer becuase he has no war sub, and if you say is correct when jei said that rdm will do mainly attacking, then having a war sub is best for that role.

Keep in mind estya said that is what exp pt's mainly want. now, once you get high enough in the came, pt's are practicly manditory(sp?) for lvling up. if you dont have what a pt wants then your chance of getting one is slim, some pt's cave and will take the galka whm, or the taru war, or some other odd combo that they can probally find better of but wont due to some circumstance.

second,

square expects us to explore, not to sit around. lvling up is just one of the experiences of the game. how boring it would be if we had to wait for a certain lv to do most things. of course there are hard mobs out there to prevent exploring but thats why square has the Party system, a party of 3-6 can do alot more around tough mobs than 1 and or 2 people.

third,

there is really no lv requirment since mission can some mission can be done solo at high lv *according to mission, theroticly the difficulty goes up as you go up in rank* some at med lv with few others, or some at low lv with full pt or full alliance. an alliance is 3 pt for a total of 18members fighting together. there are quest that can be done solo easy, not all requires fighting mobs.

last,

in the end its your descion and i respect that totaly, i just hoped i cleared up some things thats all~ i want you to have a fun expernce with ffxi, im not one to tell you how to go about doing it, but i can only offer advice/suggestions *as estya did* ^_~

Pardon my misspelling, its going on 1am ><

[Maxim]

*Floats into the conversation*

There's a lot of things that make a RDM/WHM & RDM/BLM different from a WHM/BLM or a BLM/WHM, at both high levels and low levels.

At low levels a Red Mage has the privilege of being able to attack the monster with the frontliners as well as being able to cast spells when needed . During most level-up PTs, the BLM and WHM is limited to standing in the back and casting spells only. Red Mages really have a lot of freedom when it comes to their position in battle. On top of that, you're usually the one weakening the monster with status affecting spells, allowing the other mages to conserve their MP, so if anything you're helping and not being a burden or anything.

At high levels Red Mages get Dispel, Convert, and Refresh -- abilities and spells that the WHM and BLM don't get making the RDMs more unique. From here we really start becoming support mages. I mean, once I got Refresh all I was doing was casting it which drastically reduced resting time in-between battles allowing for more chains. Refresh, Refresh, Chain, Refresh, Chain, Refresh, Refresh, Refresh, Chain. Refresh. Being able to Convert has helped save lives numerous times too. Every once in a while you're in a PT where you get aggroed while the mages have no MP (meaning no warp from the WHM or Escape from the BLM), but after you Convert it gives your MP tank that extra boost it needs to help you become the temporary full-time (oxymoron? ;)) healer for that one battle.

As for RDM/BRD, I tried this combo for a few hours in a fool-around/all-friends PT. I decided to never go back to it. Singing the songs takes too long and it interferes with healing + casting other spells that actually worth your time like Refresh. Also, if you're off singing a song for the PT and the renkei starter decided to start the renkei you'll completely miss the Magic Burst. On top o that, it's been stated several times that you can only have one song casted on you at any given time if you make Bard your support job, as opposed to having two songs casted on you.

Okay, now for RDM/THF. It's kind of embarrassing now that I think about it, but I actually used this combination up until level 30. What made it even worse was that I seriously thought it was a good mix (I didn't have WHM or BLM leveled at that time, and didn't intend on doing that any time soon). It made me the most useless Red Mage ever. As a Red Mage you don't need AGI since you shouldn't be getting hit the majority of the time. Moreover, AGI doesn't affect the delay time of weapons. To me AGI is one of the less useful stat (unless you're a RNG, or a tanking NIN which is actually quite amazing by the way, but that's beside the point and off topic). The only scenario where the monster attacks you is when it does an area attack, but that's unavoidable.

On top of that, the Red Mage's attack is pretty weak when compared to real melee jobs, and we also miss a lot. As a RDM/THF, you're still weak but you just miss less. At level 30 I was finally able to use Sneak Attack but it barely even doubled the amount of damage I did, making my total Sneak Attack damage pathetic divided by two. Woot. As for Treasure Hunter, it's not really necessary in a level up PT.

Once you hit level 50/25 you can use Flee, but even a real thief will tell you that they rarely ever use that skill while in a level up PT. If a party foresees an inevitable zemetsu ‘S–Å (total party wipe out) coming, everybody fights until the end. The WHM can just Reraise after the monster crawls away and revive everybody from there on out. Besides, if you were a RDM/WHM or a RDM/BLM with the extra MP, you probably could have healed a few extra times more and saved a few lives instead of just saving yourself with Flee while leaving everybody else for dead.

Part of the reason why I became a RDM/WHM was because I liked being the expendable one (Two hour + Signs of Goddess + Curaga + Curaga + Curaga + My death = Everybody else is alive). I mean, when the WHM dies in the PT everyone gets worried because the person keeping everybody else alive is gone. Not to mention the WHM is the person with Raise. However, if the Red Mage dies nobody really cares, including myself, so it all works out in the end. Of course, Red Mages can cast Raise at level 38 making us more useful, but once RaiseII comes around you become expendable once again.

Anyway, back to the RDM/THF bit. I strongly suggest you put off raising THF for now if you're going to have Red Mage as your main job (or at the very most level it to 15 for Treasure Hunter and stop). If I didn't waste time raising THF, my white mage and black mage's level would be higher and I wouldn't have to constantly keep going back to level them up every time they become under-leveled for my RDM. Even right now my WHM's level is one level below the half-level cap for my main job's level because I started raising it late, and it's really hurting me. The fact that I tried being unique and raised a bunch of other jobs to experiment with my RDM isn't helping me either.

WHM and BLM is the only way to go with RDM (and possibly even SMN but my SMN is level 2 right now so I haven't really tried). I really don't want to bum you out, but save yourself the disappointment and don't bother with any other support job if you want to perform efficiently in a level up party. I had to learn that the harder and more time consuming way. But hey, it doesn't mean you still can't use other support jobs for non-level up PTs. I use RDM/THF all the time when I go hunting for gil. *Nods*

[Jei]

depends on what you want to do really, Terikan.

when i level up i don't care to play what i like so much. I care to be useful and and speed up the exp timing. As a mage, having more MP helps. Having more healing spell helps. Having escape helps. Having extra black magic and white magic helps.

Having THF's ability does not help.

Best thing a RDM can do in levelling party is cast. not attack. We have refresh to help boost other mage's MP. We are the best in weakenning magic so we can sleep link monsters and de-buff target in many many fields. Our healing is strong and our nuking helps. Everything I'm good at all requires MP.

When we fight tough enemies, all RDM are even required to use /whm. My alliance went to battle with Cassie and even ALL THFs need /whm to be able to kill it at all.

If you want a great group for fast EXP, you can *not* do whatever you like. You need cooperation and team work. If everyone just play on their own way you won't last. That's about it. And cooperating is fun. Feeling helpful and have a great part in the group is such a nice feel to have.


if you're out alone or in other purpose group, just like starving said, you can do what ever you like.

[dara]

hey, I have hard time also lvling to 22 mostly solo cause almost always I canot play continously (so... no PT :/)

here is something to help you:

http://ff11.s33.xrea.com - all areas with their monsters level

learn to check monster strength related to you from FFXIOnline main page Checking Monster level (on the left side)

these two combined can help you solo in the right areas and even never die while getting around 800-1000 exp per hour
(4 hours per level at your playing time rate should be a whooping 10 lvls in a week ;) )

I havent died once from 18 to 22 lvling only solo (2lvls per weekend)

Good luck and have fun (missions are happening in the same areas described in the first page I wrote you and for NM or boss fights you should ask your LS)

Hope it helps :thumbsup:

[dara]

Edited - Sorry, it seems I posted twice but this one is the complete version of the first one

hey, I have hard time also lvling to 22 mostly solo cause almost always I canot play continously (so... no PT :/)

here is something to help you:

http://ff11.s33.xrea.com - all areas with their monsters level
its in JP but you can understand the relevant info:

- second link is monsters / area and if they link/aggro
- third link is how exp is computed so you how much you get for a specific monster at a specific lvl (solo or in a PT)


learn to check monster strength related to you from FFXIOnline main page Checking Monster level (on the left side)

these two combined can help you solo in the right areas and even never die while getting around 800-1000 exp per hour - fighting only easy monsters (-3 to -8 lvls)
(4 hours per level at your playing time rate should be a whooping 10 lvls in a week ;) )

I havent died once from 18 to 22 lvling only solo (2lvls per weekend)

Good luck and have fun (missions are happening in the same areas described in the first page I wrote you and for NM or boss fights you should ask your LS)

Hope it helps :thumbsup:

[SharMarali]

All right, I think a lot of people have given you a lot of really good information. I want to add my two cent worth here too though.

I went with the RDM/WAR combo for awhile. I think I was around level 26 or so when I realized it wasn't doing anything for me. To begin with, while Starving Artist makes a good point that level up PTs aren't the only thing in the game, you can't DO those other things if your LEVEL isn't sufficient and you have to GET into level up PTs to get to that point. RDM/WAR is fantastic at lower levels when the RDM is a backup fighter/backup healer/backup magic burster. But once you hit level 20 or so, red mages begin to move toward being a mage only. To begin with, our sword skills are nothing to write home about. At least we HAVE those skills, unlike our other mage counterparts, which is why we make great backup fighters at low levels. But our overall sword power can never compete with that of a career WAR, MNK, etc at mid levels and up. Enchant spells help, but not nearly enough.

It's not really until level 40+ though that red mages begin to come into our own. Our job is really more of a supporter for the supporters when you get down to it. With refresh, you can keep the chain going so much better than without it. You will NEED to use /anon in order to NOT get PT requests once you hit the level where red mages are expected to have refresh. It is definately one of the most useful spells in the game, and i know a couple of white mages who would give their left arm to have it. But they don't, we do. ^^ Mages are primarily support jobs, and we support the mages by being able to keep them rolling in MP, and by being able to back them up as needed. Quite often we wind up filling in as a WHM or as a BLM when the PT is missing one, so I can't say that's the be-all, end-all of our job. There's a lot more to it than that.

When you get right down to it, RDM is more exciting to play in many ways than BLM or WHM is. You asked about the advantages of playing a RDM versus one of those other two. Well~ IMO, we have it all over BLMs and WHMs when it comes to soloing/money hunting. And we certainly are quite valuable to PTs, especially once we hit the 40s. All jobs take a certain period of time to mature and come into their own, and that's when it hits for us. The thing that makes playing as a RDM so exciting for me though, is the fact that my role DOES change from one PT to the next. It's very rare that I'm in a PT where the three mages (because there are ALWAYS 3 mages and 3 fighters, unless the PT leader doesn't really know what he's doing) are BLM, WHM, RDM. So usually I'm filling in as a the BLM or as the WHM. But it's nice not to be stuck in one role or the other all the time. I don't really get sick of always being the one to cast status magic and attacking spells (BLM's job) because that's not always what I'm doing. I don't get sick of always being the one keeping everyone else alive (WHM's job) because that's not always what I'm doing either. And on those occassions when I DO have a BLM and a WHM, I don't get sick of casting refresh and backing them up when needed either.

I'm a strong advocate that people should play what they want to play. If you think you'll have more fun as a BLM/WHM, I'm cheering you on. If you think RDM/THF is the way to go, have a blast. You can always change your mind down the road. I did, and apparently so did Maxim (Hey I'm in the had a stupid SJ once club too so don't feel bad!) ..And if it works out for you, great. You'll be able to add a new and different perspective on here about how being a RDM/THF worked out for you. Might be nice to have someone around who's done it and had it work for them, since right now all we have is naysayers like me who couldn't get it to work out. ^^

[Jei]

that's a great reply you have SharMarali, you really nailed it :) have to agree to almost every points you mentioned.

Just about what you said about naysayers. We don't just say no and never tried :P
70 levels through my Redmage lifes teached me what my RDM should be doing in parties. and picking the right sub to boosts my role is easy and simple. very very clear to see.

:P I too started my RDM as RDM/WAR. up until around 25. And still use it once in a while at 60+.

when im out hunting on my own, there's certain thing i want to do and each sub job fit differently.

- rdm/blm is a very strong and useful to use either in party or solo. Drain and aspil help tons. Escape and desion are very very useful. Desion itself let you travel and do stuff where ever you want and when PT call you can desion back to town and meet up really quick instead of having to hang in towns 24 hours for a party. When you go open coffer surrounded by tough enemies.
You see chest/coffer, tough tough tough enemies around, who cares. Open the chest, activate 2 hour ability, escape/desion away. ;)

- rdm/war is still doable and rdm can tank up to choudo enemies very easy with the help of phalanx. (don't try provoke a tough enemy in PT)
using /war opens up many options for rdm to partner with THF or other mages and go out hunt for items/money.
and /war also let rdm use vorpal blade. really powerful ws for 1h sword. like the best rdm can use right now.

- rdm/thf is so useful for solo hunting for farming items, money and items and chests. More gil drop per kill, more chance to get items, fast run for finding chests.
But it doesn't give anything more than that :P All the good thing about /thf is items and money.