Changing of the Guard -- Disappointed with FFXI

[CloudFFVII]

I have finally completed this post some of you may have already seen this so just scroll down to the part that says updated.


Well I must say that after taking a step back my views on FFXI as a MMORPG have somewhat changed. Many of you will probably remember my last post concerning my disappointment with FFXI, I am sorry if the primary topic has mislead any of you, but this time I will not be "ravaging" FFXI, I am actually here to offer a more subtile opinion of FFXi as a MMORPG.

Upon first impression of the game yes I admit I was extremly disappointed, However after the anticipation died down and I was able to rethink and reevaluate the game I am a bit more happy with it. The ability to free roam and do what i want was something I had always dreamed of, yesterday after spending several hours with a new character I am pleased that I was able to achive and live a good experince within the game.

I do have some qualms about the game which I will also explain in this post and I am hopeful that this topic will receive the same type of response as the latter, without the "you are stupid" or "why do you bother playing"

Graphically FFXi is beautiful, I have never dissed this from the get-go so to speak, the amount of detail and ability they have put into the programming of this has always amazed me. The amount of effort they put into making the physics as real as possible makes me happy to be a beta tester. I am comparing this to SWG where you could walk up mountains thatw ere ona 90 degree angle.

The battle system after learning it a bit more, I kind of like it, I have noticed problems when disengaging the enemy you seem to forever be stuck in combat because you are fixed on the target at hand. Unfortunatly that does not bode well for us in the lower levels. As I have died many a time by not being able to run away and forever stuck in that 360 degree circle. That is also the same problem I noticed with SWG, there bug however was a bit worse considering in SWG you can be 700 yards away and still get hit by the enemy.

Another battle qualm I have is that you can be hit when the enemy attacks in the incorrect direction. Many a time I have circled the enemy and hit he me when he attacked where I used to be standing. Hopefully my report to Square will be taken seriously.


**[Updated]**


Several of you have already responded to my complaints about the battle system so let me address that first, quick, fast and in a hurry.

1. What is the point of a parrying and evasion in the 360 battle system, if you try to evade by walking in a circle....

This I am not sure, to me it would make perfect sense for that to be a natural part of evasion such as Dark Cloud. If you are behind the enemy and he strikes the opposite way, he should not be able to hit you. Plain and simple, it is a natural law in the world. Where there is no matter or object to hit, you cannot cause damage. It is not that hard for square to fix the coding and create it so that the enemy at least follows you in your movement and attacks where you are, or when you stop moving. The same should go for both sides, if I am running ina circle and I hit you what are the chances I will cause Max damage ... not very good.

2. Selecting your character when disengaging -- This to me is the biggest problem I have with the game, I stop fighting I disengage, I am not looking at the character I was attacking (IE a Goblin Theif) he is on a hill 20 steps away from me coming towards me, I am running the opposite direction and STILL taking damage, I do not know if these guys have unlimted knives they can throw or what, but if I cannot hit him 20 steps away with a club when I am actually engaged, how can he hit me with a knife for damage that same distance. Once again defies the natural laws of physics.

3.

Posted By: Terikan

quote:
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Another battle qualm I have is that you can be hit when the enemy attacks in the incorrect direction. Many a time I have circled the enemy and hit he me when he attacked where I used to be standing. Hopefully my report to Square will be taken seriously
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lol, funniest thing I've read all day.


Glad I could be somewhat amusing thank you for providing no useful input on a otherwise decent thread designed for intelligent conversation about the good and the bad of FFXI

Now continuing on, the cities in FFXI are marvelous, the amount of detail put into what you can do inside of them is great, each city fits what it is designed to do perfectly, hopefully the Rise of Zurrat is going to expand on this and make it that much more exciting. My only complaint about this is the lack of detail put into the insides of the buildings themselves. Only being allowed in specific buildings disappoints me, but truthfully it is not that big of a deal.

The only thing at this point I feel SE needs to wowk on is character creation, I am xtremly disappointed that in FFXI you are only allowed 8 models, with 7 faces, 2 hairstyles etc etc. Compared to SWG FFXI is heavily lacking in this area, in SWG I can customize anything from the size of my nose to the weight, skincolor, height, race options are also more as well, couting off the top of my head there is over 250 different options in SWG, so the world tends to seem alot more real.

Both Worlds so to speak have there advantages, the one thing I know that SWG is doing differently with there expansion is encorporating many many many more options into the game, while inititally FFXI is trying to be released as a much better playing system. Lucasarts/Sony needs to concentrate on getting there world as error free as S-E did and then continue on with the expansions. However I fear for the future of FFXI when SWG is fully complete ...

Both will have vehicles that you can ride on in the near future, Chocobos in FFXI to Racers in SWG

FFXi much more error free system, SWG needs to work on physics issues and battle issues as well

SWG has the advantage however when it comes to Player cities and the Space expansion pack, yes players will be able to build there own cities, and they are encorporating the old X-Wing and Tie fighter games into the system.

SWG is also going to create some type of monthly storyline and quest gig for there users which is expected to start sometime this month, I do hope that S-E will also do this and offer some big prize but who knows. That about wraps it up for me, if you have something worthwhile to add plase do so, especially if you knwo anything about the expansions for FFXI.

[Binary]

After you disengage, select yourself. Then you are able to run away from the enemy. If you keep your char focusing on the monster, of course you will have that kind of difficulty...:rolleyes:

[UltimaWeapon]

Exactly what i was going to say, Binary.

Although i kind of agree with you how you take damage in the spot where you used to be, i have noticed that in pINGS videos. Prehaps SQ should tweak that a little. But then again, if the enemy misses you when you just keep moving around, then whats the point of evasion stats? :rolleyes: :dead:

[Rougtan]

the monster using their magical tech that allows them to hit you if you are within 5 feet of them. Thats all it is ;P:sweat:

[Chipmunk777]

you are stupid! why do you bother playing?!

just kiddin, just kiddin ;)

like ultima said, if you could just stay behind an enemy's back throughout the whole battle, that kind of defeats the purpose of evasion stats, and would make the game way too easy. hope to read the rest of your post soon.

[Jei]

the game should be a lot less confusing with the *real* manual i hope.... as I see the manual that comes with the beta doesn't really tell you anything :(

altho FFXI emphasis mainly on combat and level up and not offer so much free dom in other fields, I have to say that the system on this field is perfectly done. the battle system turns out to be superior compare to other MMORPG i've played.
mainly it is the motion and rythm that makes combat looks easy to indicate what is goind on. who is swinging, who is taking hits, who is performing special attacks.....
and you get to interact with the animations in real time. for example you can plan your casting to start after the enemy's swing and finish the cast before next swing and you won't fail from distruption. you can also perform some ability that stuns the enemy before they complete their casting too.

again level up and combat is the main part of the game and square got that part nailed down. the combat system is very friendly and perfect the way they are. to me atleast :)

[Kimahriii]

"Another battle qualm I have is that you can be hit when the enemy attacks in the incorrect direction. Many a time I have circled the enemy and hit he me when he attacked where I used to be standing. Hopefully my report to Square will be taken seriously."

Only problem there is its working like it supposed too side stepping is only for getting in position for a special attack like sneak attack and such.

[Iserion]

Why does everyone diss swg? lol it hasent even been out as long as ffxi so yeah they have to tune some stuff.. but I agree with ya.. the physics are absoutley HORRIBLE .. I could run straight up a waterfall lol

[DJplaeskool]

Originally posted by CloudFFVII
Another battle qualm I have is that you can be hit when the enemy attacks in the incorrect direction. Many a time I have circled the enemy and hit he me when he attacked where I used to be standing. Hopefully my report to Square will be taken seriously.

Kimahriii is correct...

This isn't an error...
position has no bearing if you are being targetted by your enemy when it comes to his attacks...
if you are engaged, and you are in range, you WILL be attacked...
running in circles, while being cool in certain instances, is utterly pointless in one on one combat...
The only exception to combat positioning is the THF for fuidama...
as long as the special attack comes from behind the enemy/behind another player, it will register as correct positioning...
it's all boolean...

[Terikan]

Another battle qualm I have is that you can be hit when the enemy attacks in the incorrect direction. Many a time I have circled the enemy and hit he me when he attacked where I used to be standing. Hopefully my report to Square will be taken seriously

lol, funniest thing I've read all day.

[CloudFFVII]

Thread has been completed sorry for the delay

[LikeWhoa]

?1. What is the point of a parrying and evasion in the 360 battle system, if you try to evade by walking in a circle....

This I am not sure, to me it would make perfect sense for that to be a natural part of evasion such as Dark Cloud. If you are behind the enemy and he strikes the opposite way, he should not be able to hit you. Plain and simple, it is a natural law in the world. Where there is no matter or object to hit, you cannot cause damage. It is not that hard for square to fix the coding and create it so that the enemy at least follows you in your movement and attacks where you are, or when you stop moving. The same should go for both sides, if I am running ina circle and I hit you what are the chances I will cause Max damage ... not very good. "

Since this post was started way back when i'm sure you've found it out but it hasn't been posted so if not here ya go. In config main options theres a switch for auto target lock in battle, which makes it so when you're in attack mode against something it automatically goes to the 360 thing, however to get in and out of that mode when you're targetting something press the heal button (at least thats what it is for compact keyboard) and it toggles out. I prefer to have the auto lock off because as a mage i need free range of movement, plus i like my own camara angle on the battle, though locked is useful at times.

[Silvia]

...he's a white mage, that's why.

ROFL.

[Hadoken]

I fully fail to understand what the laws of physics have to do with a game. According to the laws of physics, about a million things in this game would be impossible. I'm not even going to start listing because you know what I'm talking about.

What's important for a good game is for the world to be CONSISTANT. For example, enemies do lock onto you and follow you if you are their intended target. Even if they are facing in a different direction because of lag or a sudden change of hate, the damage goes to you every time if you were the intended recipient of that attack. ALWAYS. You'll never provoke off of someone in the middle of a Goblin Rush and suddenly find that the last two strikes of it hit you instead of them. The damage from the attack is assigned instantly, before the first swing even hits. ALWAYS.

Spell animations work the same way. If any enemy is nearly dead, and you hit your macro for a weapon skill 1/2 a second after the blm finishes casting Stone II, your character won't do the attack. Why? Look at the monster's HP. As soon as that Stone II finishes, the HP drop to zero and the mob is effectively dead according to the game... even though it stands there clearly alive for another 4 seconds as Stone II smashes into it. If the world worked according to "the world of natural physics", you would waste your TP on that mob because it still looks alive to you, and the mob would still keeping attacking through the spell's whole animation because it wouldn't be really dead until the last Stone crashed into it. And... really, I feel a little silly talking about "natural physics" at the same time that I'm talking about a TP meter and magic spells.

[Pai Pai Master]

It's the same matter as in older FF games. Your character wouldn't even move up to the monster to attack it. :biggrin:

[Star8urst]

I think you fail to understand how the mechanic of the combat works in MMORPGs. The combat is not "twitch" based as in a FPS game. You can not dodge hits in real time by moving in a circle. At best you can move out of the range of a monster (worms come to mind), that is as much as you can do. Your chance to hit/parry/block ect is based on your stats, that is why it's a RPG.

At the low level the combat is broken down into pulses/rounds. Each round the server checks who's turn it is to swing based on weapon delay, if the hit connects based on accuracy/defence/parry etc and how much damage (if any) is done. Then you client receives that information and puts it on your screen. Most if the combat is derrived from your character stats, not YOUR skills. So YOU can not dodge a blow if you move sideways, you character will dodge if his parry or block was successful. If you understand that, then you will realise there is no need to move around when fighting, unless you want to do a special move that requires your character to be in a certain position (thief abilities usualy).

If combat goes bad and you want to run away, first thing you do is turn off target lock (* on the numberpad), make sure you are in first person view, and then run away. Use the terrain to your advantage, things like trees, rocks etc can slow the monsters down as they run around them and let you get away. Also do not wait until you are almost dead to run, if you know you are going to lose, run as early as you can. If it's a close fight and you are in the red already, no point running, just use any special ability you have to try and win, or hope for a critical hit or monster misses. Just accept you got unlucky and hope for a raise.

The main point is to understand how the game work and make the best of it. The combat engine is very good, much better that EQ and SWG. If you are new to MMORPG, just realise it works a little different from a Quake/Unreal/Doom ... etc or Virtua Fighter/Tekken/Soul Calibur/Dead or Alive/Smackdown ... etc. Also sometimes you get hit from a big distance as you run away. This usaly happens just after you run away and it is because the hit happened when you were next to the monster, but you get the message and the hit display a few seconds later when are are running away. It is cause by lag a lot of time, it's just part of the way the game is. But this only happens once, as long as you keep your distance after, you will be safe.

[MysticTrunks01]

I could come up with a big long counter post, but i honestly don't care enough to try to keep you playing.

Oh and SWG has many more problems than FF, which is why they are revamping the ENTIRE SYSTEM over the next few months. And the monthly story lines are a joke as they ar no different than any other mission.

I know as i do play both, but i play both for different reasons.

[jordanlim4]

Originally posted by Binary
After you disengage, select yourself. Then you are able to run away from the enemy. If you keep your char focusing on the monster, of course you will have that kind of difficulty...:rolleyes:

Erm.. something really is incorrect here... When I disengage, run away, the monster still attacks me.. Not in a different direction. but at a range that only range attack/spells are able to hit me.. And its USING MELEE attacks... Even if I click on myself.. it can still hit me in a ridiculous distance.. Whcih leads to most of my dead.. Hope they fix this...

[Teffie]

Originally posted by Star8urst
I think you fail to understand how the mechanic of the combat works in MMORPGs. The combat is not "twitch" based as in a FPS game. You can not dodge hits in real time by moving in a circle. At best you can move out of the range of a monster (worms come to mind), that is as much as you can do. Your chance to hit/parry/block ect is based on your stats, that is why it's a RPG.

At the low level the combat is broken down into pulses/rounds. Each round the server checks who's turn it is to swing based on weapon delay, if the hit connects based on accuracy/defence/parry etc and how much damage (if any) is done. Then you client receives that information and puts it on your screen. Most if the combat is derrived from your character stats, not YOUR skills. So YOU can not dodge a blow if you move sideways, you character will dodge if his parry or block was successful. If you understand that, then you will realise there is no need to move around when fighting, unless you want to do a special move that requires your character to be in a certain position (thief abilities usualy).

If combat goes bad and you want to run away, first thing you do is turn off target lock (* on the numberpad), make sure you are in first person view, and then run away. Use the terrain to your advantage, things like trees, rocks etc can slow the monsters down as they run around them and let you get away. Also do not wait until you are almost dead to run, if you know you are going to lose, run as early as you can. If it's a close fight and you are in the red already, no point running, just use any special ability you have to try and win, or hope for a critical hit or monster misses. Just accept you got unlucky and hope for a raise.

The main point is to understand how the game work and make the best of it. The combat engine is very good, much better that EQ and SWG. If you are new to MMORPG, just realise it works a little different from a Quake/Unreal/Doom ... etc or Virtua Fighter/Tekken/Soul Calibur/Dead or Alive/Smackdown ... etc. Also sometimes you get hit from a big distance as you run away. This usaly happens just after you run away and it is because the hit happened when you were next to the monster, but you get the message and the hit display a few seconds later when are are running away. It is cause by lag a lot of time, it's just part of the way the game is. But this only happens once, as long as you keep your distance after, you will be safe.

Couldn't have said it better myself

Cloud obviously has no idea what he's talking about.
First of all, you don't have to disengage in order to run away from a Monster. You just Unlock your Lock-On (Like Legend of Zelda) using the * key on your numpad.

And Your reference to Dark Cloud is completely wrong. Dark Cloud is an OFFLINE Game. A Game where The Buttons you press, Happen Instantly with no Lag.
How do you expect to play an MMORPG Game which involves "Skill" (aka: Kingdom hearts with Dodge Roll, and Dark Cloud with Combo's and Guarding) when there is a chance of Lag?
Could you imagine if there was even a 0.5 second delay on your commands how drastic that would change your play style...?

Everything is Mathematical Equations which their Server does in an instant. Those equations are based on your characters skill level.

[Star8urst]

To Jordalim4

That is not true. As I said before, they may be able to land one hit as you run away, but no more. However, they will continualy hit you as you run if the are right behind you. If you have Bind or Gravity, use that before you run away. Otherwise use the terain to try and put some distance between you and the monster chasing you. I spean from experience, I made a few "runs" in my time accross big zones and I know you can get away.

[jordanlim4]

Originally posted by Star8urst
To Jordalim4

That is not true. As I said before, they may be able to land one hit as you run away, but no more. However, they will continualy hit you as you run if the are right behind you. If you have Bind or Gravity, use that before you run away. Otherwise use the terain to try and put some distance between you and the monster chasing you. I spean from experience, I made a few "runs" in my time accross big zones and I know you can get away.

I ran, I ran as fast as I could as a WHM... And the monster did not even appear in my screen, it was far far away from me.. and it can still hit me till I die... I don't have any lag/dc or whatever... my computer is constantly stable when I play FFXI..

[Star8urst]

Hmmm, not sure what to say. When you say the monster was far away, how exactly did you check? If you are running in 3rd person perspective, it makes it harder to get away because you can only turn in 90 degrees angles and makes it easy for monsters to catch up to you. Exactly how far away were they?

I can't pass judgement, I can only talk from my experience. I have never seen a monster that was chasing me hit me with a melee weapon from farther that normal. Some monster have ranged weapons, and the can shoot while running, same with spells it seems.

[Tobold]

Running away from combat DOES work, I've done it often enough. You just need to remove the lock on your enemy with numblock * or the corresponding key on your gamepad.

If you run away over flat terrain without any obstacles, the monster following you will always be 2 steps behind you, and will continue to hit you. Due to lag, it might not LOOK as if it was so close, but on the server side it is, and thats where the damage is determined.

You need to run up a serpentine, or snake around some trees, and you will manage to make the monster get stuck for a few seconds there. Then it is too far away to hit you, and as long as you continue running to the zone, you are safe.

I would have made it to the zone line alive yesterday in Parlborough Mines with two tough Cave Funguars on my heels, if that damned Amber Quadev I passed hadn't cast Bind on me. :biggrin:

[Sugesuke_Plain]

I agree to alot of things you said

well when it comes to running, Disengaging is not a good idea. Unlock from target to run away, and it saves time. . plus when your character puts his weapon away you know you're out of range. In beta i got away 80% of the time when i ran, they called me The Flash!.

[goth-tech]

I think a lot of people are mistaken about the way the combat system works. The best way to think of it is in a 'Matrix' style of thinking. You have your 'coding' and then you have your 'graphics' which are the eye candy. In order to understand how the game works you need to ignore the graphics. Just focus on the 'battle text' you see when fighting. The reason goblins can hit you from 20yards away is because they are actually within range, its just the graphics being a bit slower than the code and therefore making it seem like they are far away. This is the same reason why when you run after a moving mob you cant hit it because its '2 far away'. its because it is 2 far away, the graphics just make it seem like you are next to it.

Im not sure how S-E could fix this, but this is just an explanation as to why these things occur.

[RD2hypeD]

Physics, huh?

I just love sitting on a cushion of air. :)

[VoodooXX]

Another battle qualm I have is that you can be hit when the enemy attacks in the incorrect direction. Many a time I have circled the enemy and hit he me when he attacked where I used to be standing.

Yea, I see MMO newbs doing this all the time. 'I'm like, hey knock that off. It doesn't help anything.' They of course keep doing it because they know better. Hell, even Planetside, a MMO that is DESIGNED to be a twitch game has horrible collision detection due to lag. For the record, you are more likely to miss the mob from moving around then they are to miss you.

I have noticed problems when disengaging the enemy you seem to forever be stuck in combat because you are fixed on the target at hand. Unfortunatly that does not bode well for us in the lower levels. As I have died many a time by not being able to run away and forever stuck in that 360 degree circle.

Hit * on the number pad and run your ass off. Don't worry about disengauging and putting your weapon away, that wastes precious seconds. I have successfully outrun things like Dhamels before...it is possible.

[Khalum]

What is this nonsense about not running away in 3rd person view!?

Quote:
If you are running in 3rd person perspective, it makes it harder to get away because you can only turn in 90 degrees angles and makes it easy for monsters to catch up to you. Exactly how far away were they?

I'm not real sure whats up with your control scheme, but you get the same mobility in either 'view.' I always use 3rd person and have no trouble getting away. Some monsters shoot and cast, but that only serves to slow them down. Is it a limitation of using a controller or something?

All you need to do to run is: Hit * on the number pad(if yer in compact kybd mode), and start running. Don't stop, don't look back, just zone as quickly as you can.

[RD2hypeD]

Yeah, unlocking your target is the way to run away usually. Takes too much time to hit Disengage, put your weapon away, then run away--could take a couple hits while doing that.

[coolblue830]

Yeah I usually just hit * on the numpad to disengage to run away. I sometimes even do that just to pull, I will walk up to a monster, attack it, hit *, run to a safer location, then lock target again.

The thing about hitting when you're running... I'm a little bit leaning towards.. the way it is right now. After a while playing you almost get used to monsters hitting you from a distance as you character will be able to hit them from a distance as well. Just try backing up while in combat and you'll see how you're still able to land hits even when the monster is not right in front of you.

I do wish that they would make it easier to initiate combat with a monster in motion by hitting them tho. If you dont have range weapons, or spells, or provoke, often times you need to chase the monster and wait till he stops to be able to hit him. This is stupid because you can actually stand in his path, and he'll walk right past you and you won't be able to hit him until he stops. This is very very annoying because sometimes if you are trying to assist someone running away, and you don't have any of the methods mentioned above, you just have to keep running after them until the guy is either dead, or decides to stop.