Does anti-aliasing even work in FFXI? [Archive] - Final Fantasy XI :: Dreams in Vana'diel

Adohleas

07-16-2003, 01:52 AM

mx 440??? but...those are supposed to be crap! how'd ya do it?

Well if you have the right specs on a computer, a GeForce 4 MX 440 can easly run the game with no lagg and very high display quality.

If you get your benchmark above 4000, then your gunna be able to run it at almost any display quality without lagg.

I just overclocked my GeForce 4 mx 440 64 megs of ram even higher then previously.
Before I had it overclocked, it hit over 3700.
Then I overclocked it and hit over 4020.
Now I have it overclocked to give me a score of 4329.
I now think im gunna take my new video card back that I bought since my GeForce 4 should easly handle the game without lagg.

I'm planning to buy a completely new pc near December, so I might as well not get a new video card now as there might be a better one arround that time.

Jei

07-16-2003, 02:07 AM

with GF4 MX you won't be able to use the bump mapping feature tho. also the hardware T&L. if you're ok with only speed.

dimsum

07-16-2003, 02:33 AM

Where are the screenshots saved on the hard drive?? There are so many folders :confused:

UltimaWeapon

07-16-2003, 12:11 PM

*sigh* When i saw that pic, i was like "wow! thats clear! my card is so gonna rock". But then you could have just overclocked youR card. :(

You know what? All these people are complaining about jaggies and all that. Well, let me tell you this, Whats more important? Less jaggies? Or, higer frame rate?

Cos the game might look pretty when you set it all up, but its not gonna make up for your bad frame rate. I might aswell have really jagged graphics then to have lag on my graphics.

I've noticed this with PSO, i did a special attack, and my character moved so slowly, it was horrible.

Iserion

07-16-2003, 12:18 PM

I dont even know how to overclock :p and I wouldnt anyway in fear of loosing my graphics card

UltimaWeapon

07-16-2003, 12:45 PM

Heres my FX 5200 on MAX settings ('cept its on AA 4x and not 4x max cos the pic looks fuzzy with 4x max on)

Heres a pic from the cute fairy!

Terikan

07-16-2003, 01:19 PM

umm, I don't think people care unless its from the game man...

Medion Palemoon

06-03-2004, 06:51 PM

Sorry to bump an old topic, but Iwas doing a search to find a way if AA and AF have been corrected in this game or not yet.

First off, some corrections on previous posts, in case those users still browse.

FFXI for some reaon will not allow AA and/or AF. Even if you have these settings "forced" in your ATI or NVidia control panel, they will not work in game. I'm hoping they have a fix for it soon. Both ATI and NVidia have stated that it is an issue with the game and not their drivers.

Wha? There is anti-aliasing.. well for me.. look at this screenshot I took there isnt any jagged edges

In this case, the image was resized (shrunk). You didn't have AA on there.

with GF4 MX you won't be able to use the bump mapping feature tho. also the hardware T&L. if you're ok with only speed.

Hardware T&L has been a feature of all GeForce cards since the original. Yes, even the GF2 and GF4MX lines have HT&L.

I dont even know how to overclock and I wouldnt anyway in fear of loosing my graphics card

Just do a google search on "ATI/NVidia overclock utility", whichever is relevant to you. Overclock at small intervals to find what is stable for you. Most cards won't overclock to a large degree without non-stock cooling.

shwiggy

06-03-2004, 07:38 PM

See the sticky up top about raising your background resolution. That alone should smooth out the edges for a lot of textures in the game including character models.

neighbortaru

06-03-2004, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by Medion Palemoon
FFXI for some reaon will not allow AA and/or AF. Even if you have these settings "forced" in your ATI or NVidia control panel, they will not work in game. I'm hoping they have a fix for it soon. Both ATI and NVidia have stated that it is an issue with the game and not their drivers.

AF will work. AA does as well, but only for the menus and text. As shwiggy said, the only real way to get rid of jaggies is to use the background res hack (which in it's only way is AA).

elias

06-03-2004, 09:21 PM

My video card: MX440
AA on, AF off.

Medion Palemoon

06-04-2004, 01:32 AM

Raising the background resolution will increase the detail in textures, but it won't smooth out th edges.

AA does not work, and I have yet to see any proof of AF working either. Forcing it to work via the control panel doesn't matter, it still will not work in game.

neighbortaru

06-04-2004, 07:03 AM

err, have you seen the background res hack thread? I don't know how you can say 2048x2048 does not get rid of the jaggies. heck, even at 1600x1600 you can see the difference. it's virtually 4xAA.

As for AF, I notice a difference in the textures (I set mine for 8x).

elias:
Nice! what res are you running on the GF4MX? I'm too afraid of running it beyond 10x7 @ 1024x1024 background.

Medion Palemoon

06-04-2004, 12:07 PM

err, have you seen the background res hack thread? I don't know how you can say 2048x2048 does not get rid of the jaggies. heck, even at 1600x1600 you can see the difference. it's virtually 4xAA.

The background resolution affects the maximum size for textures, nothing else.

While the textures may seem clearer/more detailed at a distance, theya re still limited by your full-screen resolution. They will not clear out any edges between polygons. I personally run mine at 2048x2048, and it doesn't come close to any form of AA. I run most of my games, except farcry, at 6xAA.

As for AF, I notice a difference in the textures (I set mine for 8x).

AF doesn't clear up textures, it smoothes the transition between mipmap planes. If you edit your mipmap settings in the registry, you'll clearly see that AF is not being used in this game. Set the number over 5 and the transition lines are blatantly obvious.

neighbortaru

06-04-2004, 01:03 PM

(disclaimer - this is my understanding of the technology, it might not be 100% technically accurate, but I believe it is correct)

AF is a kind of texture filtering (as are bi and trilinear). It does clear up textures.
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1152380,00.asp

Mip-mapping is the scaling of textures at distances. AF, Bilinear and Trilinear all play a role in mip-mapping, but there is another element as well (the actual mip-map algorithm). Editing the mip-map settings will not prove whether AF works or not because they are still different animals.

The "background resolution" is not for maximum size of textures. It's actually the background rendering buffer. It draws all the objects in game in this buffer and then displays them at the screen resolution (scaled). Thus if you are running at 1024x768 and you set the background res at 1600x1600 you are in effect supersampling your image (thus AA).
http://vnboards.ign.com/FFXI_Tech_Support_Board/b22547/59558237/?35

if you run at 2048x2048 background res and you still don't see changes in the edge jaggies (provided you are not running at 1600x1600 or some ungodly screen res), you might need to get your eyes checked. :sweat:

Medion Palemoon

06-04-2004, 01:18 PM

you might need to get your eyes checked.

Couldn't help throwing an insult there, could ya?

AF is a kind of texture filtering (as are bi and trilinear). It does clear up textures.

No, it doesn't. Did you even read the link you cited? In it:

Anisotropic filtering (AF) is used to address a specific kind of texture artifact that occurs when a 3D surface is sloped relative to the view camera.

Right here it is. This sloping is what mip-apping was created to address. Here's a more accurate read on it.

http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040603/index.html

The "background resolution" is not for maximum size of textures. It's actually the background rendering buffer. It draws all the objects in game in this buffer and then displays them at the screen resolution (scaled). Thus if you are running at 1024x768 and you set the background res at 1600x1600 you are in effect supersampling your image (thus AA).

I was reading something from Square claiming that the background resolution was fort textures. Maybe I misinterpreted it. So, you're right here, it is an overlay. It will clear up the image a little. However, it won't look enarly as good as FSAA. I'll try to host some screens tonight to do some comparisons.

Also, your 2nd source there confirms that neither AA nor AF work in this game. Damn shame too.

neighbortaru

06-04-2004, 01:42 PM

woah, hold up there. how's that an insult? If that was offensive to you, I appoligize. I was just kinda teasing you (see the smilely?). I certainly did not mean to insult you in any way. Again, sorry for that.

um, we are both reading the same thing but getting different things out of it. First, let's talk about that quote you put there. It says it's used to address a kind of texture artifact rendered at a slope. This means every texture on the screen not perpendicular to your view. Folds of clothing, objects drawn at a perspective, etc. All these textures are being affect by AF. So I believe my orignial statement still stands, it's affecting (clearing up) the textures (not just at the mip-map planes).

You can see it in the pictures in the tom's link (http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040603/ati_optimized-04.html)

Second, where are you reading that they confirmed AF is not working in game? The only mention of AF was from Yst and he was mearly stating his own observations and some others. I am of the opposite opinion and I do notice AF working.

Medion Palemoon

06-04-2004, 01:53 PM

I'll divide this into two posts, first being a direct response, and second being my current screenshot comparison.

woah, hold up there. how's that an insult? If that was offensive to you, I appoligize.

I apologize for taking it the wrong way.

um, we are both reading the same thing but getting different things out of it. First, let's talk about that quote you put there. It says it's used to address a kind of texture artifact rendered at a slope. This means every texture on the screen not perpendicular to your view. Folds of clothing, objects drawn at a perspective, etc. All these textures are being affect by AF. So I believe my orignial statement still stands, it's affecting (clearing up) the textures (not just at the mip-map planes).

I don't believe that your statement still stands. Mip-mapping was created to address the issue of textures being shrunk as they faded ino the distance. This way, smaller textures could be shown with the detail that the developers wanted you to see, rather than interment pixelazation.

As shown in the color bars, Bilinear, Trilinear (Brilinear too), and Anisotropic filtering are all techniques used to smooth out the affect of mip-mapping. Without it, it comes across as squares that are horribly noticable (think Sega Dreamcast, Sonic Adventure specifically!).

Second, where are you reading that they confirmed AF is not working in game? The only mention of AF was from Yst and he was mearly stating his own observations and some others. I am of the opposite opinion and I do notice AF working.

Been awhile. My reason for bumping this post was to see if it has been fixed or not.

Now, on to the screenshots.

Medion Palemoon

06-04-2004, 02:03 PM

The pioint of these screenshots is to help prove whether or not AA and AF work in game, as well as to clear up our discussion on the background resolution. I can gather more screenshots for other purposes if desired. First off, here's a list of constants found in ever screenshot.

All settings are turned on and/or maxed out (IE, bump mapping/mip-mapping are on). Background is set to 1024x1024, while the main resolution is 1280x1024.

NOTE: All 3 screenshots are uncompressed bitmaps, to retain their original quality. Screenshots were taken with FRAPS.

Screenshot 1:
All settings as above, with 6xAA, 16xAF.
http://www.antithesisguild.com/ffxi/SS1.bmp

The captured framerate was 21, but it was bouncing from 21-25 consistently.

Screenshot 2:
Default settings, no AA or AF.
http://www.antithesisguild.com/ffxi/SS2.bmp

Captured framerate was 24, but again, fluctuating from 21-25.

Screenshot 3:
No AA or AF, background set to 2048x2048.
http://www.antithesisguild.com/ffxi/SS3.bmp

The captured framerate was 17, but it was bouncing from 16-18 consistently.

What can be deducted from these screenshots?

From 1-2: No apparent gain from 6xAA. Do I need to post shots of other games to show how dramatic the difference is when using 6xAA? It's huge. AA is not working in FFXI, and that is a fact.

No apparent gain form AF? Well, going by your theory, it would improve the quality of the sloped textures. Going by mine, we'd need a higher mip-map setting. I'll play with that later. As of now though, I'm convinced that no AF is in effect either. These screenshots should prove that.

You'll also notice no hit in framerate, though that in itself is inconclusive. In games that are not limited by fill-rate, AA/AF don't cause a hit until they're cranked to the point where fill-rate does become the bottleneck.

From 2-3:

It's blatantly obvious that I was flat out wrong in my explanation of the background resolution, and you were 100% correct. The improvement is astounding. You'll even notice a framerate hit. Going from 16-18 to 21-25 is a hit of 23.8-28% (low to high).

The quality, however, is vastly improved. I'll have to take shots of another game to prove wheter or not the effect is as good as FSAA though.

One other thing is clear though, the framerate hit here proves that the game was limited by my card's fill-rate. This is further proof then, that AA and AF aren't working in this game. Square-Enix obviously wanted the game filtered their way.

Medion Palemoon

06-04-2004, 02:33 PM

Mip-mapping is done primarily inn two ways, through software, or through hardware.

The software method involves having scaled down versions of the texture, and they are replaced as the texture gets further form you. It's basic level of detail (LOD).

The hardware method is the lazy man's method, where you tell the video card to scale it down for you, then swap it out. This is one instance of software being faster/more efficient than hardware.

Square uses the lazy man's method, which is fine since most games today use it. Also, hardware has gotten complex enough to handle it in a good manner.

First off we have:

1 - http://www.antithesisguild.com/ffxi/SS4.bmp

The above screenshot shows the game with Mip-mapping turned off. Notice the entrance to bastok in the upper part of the screenshot, how the ground texture seems condensed and pixelized.

2 - http://www.antithesisguild.com/ffxi/SS5.bmp

This is with Mip-mapping turned on. Notice a difference? Neither did I. The line where mip-mapping starts is pretty far off with this setting, so unnoticable here in town.

3 - http://www.antithesisguild.com/ffxi/SS6.bmp

This is the registery "hack." Similar to the background version, simply set 0000 from 00 (mip-mapping off) or 01 (on) to any humber from 3-5 (on steroids).

The higher this number, the closer the mip-mapping is brought to the user. Five yielded the best results (as shown in the above picture). Any setting above 5 brings it closer, but still only shows the two settings.

As you can see by glancing at the entrance to basok, the ground texture seems washed out (compressed), but still, the original ground detail is visible rather than pixilized. You can actually make one line of detail seperating two mip-maps. It's just below th far staircase, closest to the entrance to Bastok.

4 - http://www.antithesisguild.com/ffxi/SS7.bmp

Here is the same situation with 16xAF. With 16x, the transitions between mip-map levels should not be detectable in game, without turning on colored mip-maps. Guess what? They're still there, in roughly the same spot (I couldn't get the exact same angle each time I logged in, so the mip-map angle would be adjusted somewhat)

Conclusion; AF does not work in this game.

Medion Palemoon

06-04-2004, 03:53 PM

My last post defending my view, but hopefully, not the end of civil discussion regarding it.

I've uploaded a better picture for SS7. This picture will show that AF does in fact work (you were correct!). So, please negate my comments to the contrary in the above post.

So, here's the end results of my analysis.

-FSAA does not work, even if forced in your display driver control panel.
-SSAA is borked sort of. You need the registry hack to make it work correctly, otherwise you end up upsampling if you're running a resolution higher than 1024x768. This causes a partial loss of quality (or a big loss if run at 1600x1200).
-Mip-Mapping doesn't work well enough without a registry hack. If you're not running any AF settings, you're probably better off leaving mip-mapping off.

So, what would I like to see fixed?
-Enable AA
-Change the config options for backgrounf (SSAA). Allow users to go as high as their card will let them go (currently 2048x2048 for ATI/Nvidia cards, 4096x4096 in PowerVr, but those Kyro cards won't work here anyway), or disable it in favor of FSAA.
-Change the Mip-Map distance to something closer, such as a 3, 4, or 5 in the registry, when turned on. Or, allow users to set it far, medium, close. Right now, simply tuend "on" it is too far to have any impact.

Arli

06-04-2004, 08:37 PM

Excellent analysis Synbios *claps*.

It really is a shame that Square Enix has put so many shackles on the game's visual options. It seems that instead of an open ended configuration system that allows users to push the envelope of their video cards, they're set on keeping the performance of the game comperable to the lowest playable machine.

The latest ATI Catalyst drivers (4.5 I beleive) actually forces AA in all DirectX games regardless of any software restrictions, but I haven't had the chance to test it out since I installed them.

Also, is it just me, or does it look like the PC version of the game's colors seem washed out? I've been playing the game since NA beta, and between other PC games, FFXI seems to have the least vibrant color palette. I wonder if that has anything to do with the game being a direct port with marginal upgrades.

neighbortaru

06-04-2004, 10:03 PM

/bow Medion

My hat's off to you for doing such in-depth analysis. I am in complete agreement with your 3 conclusions.

The problem with enabling AA is that the engine was not built for it. As I've heard someone explain it, it's similar to how Halo is.
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1354064,00.asp
With the background res hack, we are (i believe) doing what the later part of that article is talking about, forcing it to draw AA (super-sample) in the intermediate buffer. I think this is the best we can get otherwise, they'd have to redo the entire rendering engine.

btw, I don't think there's a distinction between FSAA and SSAA. Most of the current FSAA algorithms use super-sampling (or a tweaked variation of) to achieve it's results so you're really talking about the same thing. The only card to not use SS for AA is the Kyro (and maybe the Voodoo 5 -- but who remembers that dinosaur).

Arli:
The latest Cats don't do squat. But in all honesty, I wasn't looking at it too hard.

Medion Palemoon

06-04-2004, 10:17 PM

The latest ATI Catalyst drivers (4.5 I beleive) actually forces AA in all DirectX games regardless of any software restrictions, but I haven't had the chance to test it out since I installed them.

Stick with the 4.4s for now. The 4.5s have some SERIOUS issues with Shadows ver uneven surfaces. They are very obious in Farcry, Thief 3, Deus Ex: Invisible War, and I even noticed it a bit in Highlands this past weekend. 4.6 is around the corner, let's see how they perform ;)

Also, is it just me, or does it look like the PC version of the game's colors seem washed out? I've been playing the game since NA beta, and between other PC games, FFXI seems to have the least vibrant color palette.

I think FFXI is very vibrant. Each area is diverse. Yes, part of it is form being a PS2 port, but overall, it's a nice package.

Wanna see washed out? Dull? Play Morrowind without AA or AF. It's like night and day.

/bow Medion

My hat's off to you for doing such in-depth analysis. I am in complete agreement with your 3 conclusions.

Thank you, but keep in mind, you were right as much, if not more so than me. I felt that some of my views were right because of things that I thought I saw. Well, after testing, I proved myself wrong in a few areas. I'm a nerd about this stuff, and I love to learn.

btw, I don't think there's a distinction between FSAA and SSAA. Most of the current FSAA algorithms use super-sampling (or a tweaked variation of) to achieve it's results so you're really talking about the same thing.

FSAA is quite a bit different than SSAA. SSAA uses a higher resolution sample and downsamples . FSAA uses multiple samples. The quality of FSAA over SSAA is huge. It's up to the user though, to decide if it is worth the performance hit.

Arli:
The latest Cats don't do squat. But in all honesty, I wasn't looking at it too hard.

You're correct, they're messed up. I can tell you this, expect to see Cat 4.6 in the next 2 weeks. Oh yea, OpenGL performance will be better :)

neighbortaru

06-04-2004, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Medion Palemoon
Wanna see washed out? Dull? Play Morrowind without AA or AF. It's like night and day.

Yuck, Morrowind. Yuck.

Thank you, but keep in mind, you were right as much, if not more so than me. I felt that some of my views were right because of things that I thought I saw. Well, after testing, I proved myself wrong in a few areas. I'm a nerd about this stuff, and I love to learn.

We each had our own beliefs, sources and proofs. I'm just glad we were able to talk things out like civilized adults.

FSAA is quite a bit different than SSAA. SSAA uses a higher resolution sample and downsamples . FSAA uses multiple samples. The quality of FSAA over SSAA is huge. It's up to the user though, to decide if it is worth the performance hit.

Hmm, I'm not sure that's the definition of FSAA. Full Screen Anti-Aliasing is just a general term. What you described is, I believe, called rotated grid anti-aliasing (Voodoo 5). Yes, it is much better than super-sampling. Unfortunately, no card today (ATI nor Nvidia) does it.

edit: ah, I am somewhat incorrect. What you are describing is called Multi-sample anti-aliasing and apparently ATI and Nvidia both implement it (wow, I must be ancient to actually remember ATI and Nvidia used to use super-sampling for their AA).

Medion Palemoon

06-08-2004, 04:00 PM

I actually emailed SE about this a week ago. I just got my response today.

They claimed that AA and AF do not work because the game was developed for the PC and PS2, and as such, neither effect is supported.

1)They way Windows, DirectX, Nvidia, and ATI work today, you actually have to forcibly disable a feature to prevent it from working, otehrwise, you cna force AA/AF in the display control panel.

2)I've presented proof (framerate hit + improved mip-map quality) that my 16AF is working. For anyone reading this, scroll up, or go to page one for the proof. The images are still there for now.

3)Mip-mapping and bump-mapping are supported, features I don't see being used on the PS2 version. The PS2 cannot even do bump-mapping via hardware, nor does it have the power to run it without a HUGE performance hit. I'm not sure on mip-mapping, other than the fact that, to my eyes, I'm not seeing it.

4)It wasn't develped for the PC and PS2, it was developed for the PS2, and was half-assed ported to the PC. Thankfully, they spared us the port-related bugs that we got from the PC versions of FF7 and FF8.