The Future of FFXI....

[Kagetsu]

If they have ANY sort of PvP system, it should be tournament style, or certain maps dedicated to do so. An MMO called Ragnarok Online, for a time, put 2 commonly non-used maps, and made them PvP. One was an "Easy" PvP, where there would be no penalty for dying, and there was a "Hard" PvP, where you would lose exp AND have a chance of dropping an item. In the Korean Version (they dont do that map dealy), they have an PvP building you go into, and you choose either "Easy", or "Hard" PvP, and then you are sent into a room where you would like to battle. They are seperated by level, and there is also one FreeForAll PvP Arena. I think this system worked out well, it just doesnt have any story value.

[Paiku]

Originally posted by Kosh
Uhhhhh, you do know that Everquest is NOT player vs. player don't you? I'm not flaming but this just seemed like an absurd post....

Not absurd at all, just apparently too full of reality that it flew right over your head.

Uh, you start off by stating Everquest (a non PvP mmorpg) is the most popular mmorpg than say FFXI will not be as successful since it is not a PvP mmorpg.

No, I said FFXI will not be as successful because PvP isn't included, and when someone made mention that it will be included, I made an addendum in a later post. And Everquest has PvP.

Don't twist my words to suit your purpose.

Well that makes no sense... if anything, it shows that FFXI will be successful since it follows the same formula as the game that you stated was the most popular mmorpg (Everquest).

Meaning no one has any reason to leave Everquest just yet, right?

So, needless to say, I think your statement is off-base and unfounded. Obviously, you have never even played Everquest or know what it's about. And don't say that the dueling in Everquest makes it a PvP game because that doesn't make a PvP game at all.

Funny, PvP stands for player versus player combat. All that is required to fit the bill is to pit one player against another in a situation where they compete with one another, and there is a definitive way to win. If you're going to debate with me, don't go into making your own definitions of what "qualifies as a PvP game".

First of all, it only allows one on one fighting when both people agree ahead of time and there is no penalty for dying (hardly the formula of your standard PvP game). Second, I played Everquest for a year and only saw people duel a couple of times. It was rather pointless and people only did it when they were really bored. Trust me, NOBODY pays $10 a month and plays Everquest for the dueling. NOBODY.

But it's an option. You never limit people's options.

Most people never bothered with those chess boards on Ultima Online, but I found myself using it with others on occasion. It's just a small thing, but again, you never limit people's options. More, not less, is better when it comes to gaming.

I guess my biggest question is: If, as you say, U.S. players like PvP so much, than how do you explain Everquest's success??? By your logic, shouldn't the most popular MMORPG be Ultima Online? It's not.

Many factors fall into Everquest's success. Marketing for one... that and the media's quickness to mention the game and use it as a standard to measure other MMORPGs. The sheer size of the game is another factor.

PvP is just another selling point.

Final Fantasy XI is competing with LOTS of other MMORPGs. What does it offer that other MMORPGs don't? Here's a hint: nothing. Oh wait, there's the Final Fantasy in the title. And some Chocobos.

What's my attraction to the game? The style. I prefer the art style in Japan over our stuff. And I've already listened to FFXI's musical score beforehand and enjoyed it, which is an important feature for me.

Now add a cooler job system,

Ragnarok Online will beat this out in a few more months, which is *gasp* about the time when FFXI will finally release in the US.

better graphics

Already beaten out by the upcoming Star Wars Galaxies, Asheron's Call 2, etc.

and the Final Fantasy universe that thousands of U.S. players have fallen in love with

Whom the majority have absolutely no interest in a MMORPG.

and take away Everquest things like corpse runs and kill-on-sight city guard stupid faction crap

I somehow doubt this is going to be plastered on the back of the box when the game hits retail. Most gamers are uninformed. And for those that ARE informed, the majority don't care about MMORPGs anyways.

and I think without a doubt it will be a smash hit.

And I think someone is counting their chickens before they're hatched.

Well this post is long enough and I think I've made my point. If I really needed to, I would go into detail about how "the second most popular mmorpg", Dark Age of Camelot, is only a partially PvP game. It is not even a full PvP game like Ultima Online. I don't think PvP is as popular as you think it is...

"Partially PvP" or "Fully PvP" really is irrelevant. See above paragraph again about what PvP is defined as.

PvP combat is very much popular. Why do you think online FPS's continue to succeed? Why do you think Ultima Online continues to live, despite being horribly outdated compared to every other MMORPG out on the market? People love the thrill of competing against another player.

And I'm certain FFXI will beat out Everquest after it's out a while. Everquest is getting desperate in lieu of FFXI's release and is planning to come out with Everquest II already. [/b]

And I /KNOW/ it won't. SCEA will make sure of that.

I've had this same ol' kind of debate twice before with people for two other games. Naturally the members of the boards for the respective games were SO confident that their new game of interest was just going to blow away the competition. Naturally, I ended up being right both times. Probably because I have a slight grasp on how the gaming market works.

Final Fantasy XI will do well, but it will not beat out the competition. Period. The MMORPG market isn't very big to begin with, and it's becoming saturated with all these new MMORPGs all over the place. Final Fantasy XI brings nothing really new to the table, and thus does nothing to stand out. This is just the hard, cold facts.

Believe what you wish. Meanwhile, pray that Stratics.com decides to make a section covering Final Fantasy XI someday, which is pretty much the site of choice for most MMORPGers these days.

[Kosh]

Ok... so by your (*cough FLAWED *cough) logic...

If FFXI puts in one measley arena that allows players to fight each other if they both agree to do so it is suddenly considered a PvP game?

OMFG! ROFL! LMAO!

Now it will get thousands of extra players because you now deem it PvP?

Hahahaha. You are really too funny. It's kind of endearing the way you try to sound smart with your flawed arguments.

oooohhh stratics.com doesn't talk about it. LOL. I could care less about stratics.com. You probably help run that lame site. There are tons of other sites that DO talk about FFXI but if stratics.com doesn't talk about it, it must be a terrible game. Haha, you are really too funny.

Please feel free to come at me with another "comeback" I need the laughs

[Beowulf]

Kosh, i think you're a idiot and have proved in this thread lol. Good job ass .

[Paiku]

Originally posted by Kosh
Ok... so by your (*cough FLAWED *cough) logic...

If FFXI puts in one measley arena that allows players to fight each other if they both agree to do so it is suddenly considered a PvP game?

Once again, playing with my words, and once again, the point flies right past your head. Whether it's a "PvP game" in your eyes is irrelevant. Including PvP (in ANY FORM) is an important thing for MMORPGs. What good can possibly come about from lacking options? People in general may not make use of the dueling in Everquest, but the option is always there. And that's important. You NEVER limit your players' options if you can help it.

OMFG! ROFL! LMAO!

Typing internet acronyms for "laughing" doesn't accomplish much. And if you're really "rolling on the floor laughing" and "laughing your ass off" from my reply, you might want to consider getting some help.

Now it will get thousands of extra players because you now deem it PvP?

Nope, it'll help keep people around longer. There's a difference. Reading comprehension does wonders, you know?

Hahahaha. You are really too funny. It's kind of endearing the way you try to sound smart with your flawed arguments.

Doesn't take much to amuse you, does it? I have this shiny quarter you can play with.

oooohhh stratics.com doesn't talk about it. LOL. I could care less about stratics.com.

You mean you COULDN'T care less about it. Or maybe you're telling me that you do care? LOL!!!!!11111oneoneoneeleveneleven

You probably help run that lame site.

Actually I don't, but seeing how you're calling it lame, it's pretty obvious how closed-minded you are. Stratics.com is the largest MMORPG database site on the internet. There's absolutely nothing "lame" about it. It does everything this site does on a considerably larger scale, so I guess that means this site is extremely lame in your eyes, eh?

There are tons of other sites that DO talk about FFXI but if stratics.com doesn't talk about it, it must be a terrible game. Haha, you are really too funny.

Funny, I don't recall ever insulting FFXI. I own the import, and now I'm going to Beta test it.

You may want to consider revisiting 3rd grade English. Try actually READING my posts some time. Then try to comprehend the meaning behind the words. Mm'kay?

Please feel free to come at me with another "comeback" I need the laughs

This'll be my last reply to you, seeing how you're totally inept when it comes to intelligent debate. Have fun "laughing" at my reply, nevermind that you really aren't laughing at any posts on this message board.

By the way, don't forget to breathe as you finish reading this last line.

[Zale00]

Originally posted by Kosh
Ok... so by your (*cough FLAWED *cough) logic...

If FFXI puts in one measley arena that allows players to fight each other if they both agree to do so it is suddenly considered a PvP game?

OMFG! ROFL! LMAO!

Now it will get thousands of extra players because you now deem it PvP?

Hahahaha. You are really too funny. It's kind of endearing the way you try to sound smart with your flawed arguments.

oooohhh stratics.com doesn't talk about it. LOL. I could care less about stratics.com. You probably help run that lame site. There are tons of other sites that DO talk about FFXI but if stratics.com doesn't talk about it, it must be a terrible game. Haha, you are really too funny.

Please feel free to come at me with another "comeback" I need the laughs

lol I agree with ya there, his logic really is flawed.

Lemme throw somethin in. Hey Paiku, FFXI has been out in Japan for about a year and it already has 200,000+ subscribers. EQ has been out for around 5 years and it now has 400,000+ subscribers.

You do the math.

[Kiddish]

Clearly Kosh you don't know the difference between pvp and pk. If you put an arena in, with consenting players fighting EACH OTHER it's a pvp game, but it's not PK. PK is when you can go around killing whoever you like which is what you're referring to, no one else here is. :spin:

[Shadowed]

I remember my AC days... you saying PK brought back a lot of memories...

[StarRealms]

gemstone III is a text based, similar to mud game that you have to pay user fees in order to play... the game has been going now for something like 15 years (it has been a predecessor to many of the MMORPG games you see today) and it has still been going relatively strong (apparently). So with proper support FFXI can be going on a long time. The thing with online games, is even with basic updates there are some really dedicated people who keep playing, and the costs to keep a server going are relatively low.

[Paiku]

"Yeah, I agree, his logic is flawed" isn't much of an argument. Nice try though.

Here's some logic to throw right back at you Zale. Japan is a different market in that gamers are willing to buy all these extra peripherals for their consoles. That's part of the reason why they get LE packaging for releases while we don't. The hard drive will undoubtedly not sell very well in the US. Why do you think Sony has been so reluctant to release it? Because they know the market better than you, and I'm in full agreement with Sony's feelings on the matter.

Final Fantasy is more popular in Japan than in America. Final Fantasy XI also has less MMORPGs to compete with in Japan. 200,000 subscribers is all fine and dandy, but then let's look at the US market. Final Fantasy is less popular in America. The people who are into Final Fantasy are generally console-gamers. Console gamers in general aren't interested in PC-style games (which, despite being on a console, FFXI falls under a PC-style game). I really doubt many people will own a PS2 hard drive. Notice how the PS2 release is AFTER the PC release? Go figure. Nevermind that Final Fantasy XI is up against a plethora of MMORPGs. Final Fantasy XI offers nothing new to the table. It may be hot stuff in Japan, but it isn't on these shores. The majority of gamers really don't care.

There's no "math" to be done here.

Oh, and for the record, Everquest has MAINTAINED over 400,000 subscribers for quite some time now. You make it sound as if they just broke the mark in their 5th year. Sorry to disappoint you.

Who's next?

[Kagetsu]

Paiku, i fully agree with you, but you also werent very open to Kosh's opinions (flawed or not). What he means as Everquest not being a PvP Game, is based on the fact that you can't go around killing people whenever you like (i.e Ultima Online). I doubt FFXI will be a major success, but it will live up to its hype, considering the people who are creating this hype will be satisfied. How long will it last? As long as S-E wants to run it i assume. I dont sense i lack of users in NA, just not the numbers S-E was aiming for. Its true also, i was very skeptical about an online FF, and many of my hardcore FF fans hate the idea all together. I know everyone who plays FFXI, or dreams about it, wants it to be a major hit. But based on what Paiku said, it wont be blown out of the water. Just enjoy the FFXI now and wait and watch as it develops.

[Paiku]

You can't kill people on Ultima Online whenever you like either. You have to go to a specific facet for it to be allowed. In other words, it has consensual PvP because you chose to be a part of it. If you wanted to do nothing but MvP combat, you stuck to Trammel, Ilshenar, or whatever else they have now, I quit playing it awhile back.

And that still doesn't change the fact that his whole PvP argument was pretty much moot. PvP doesn't make or break a game's success like he garnered from my post, but it certainly can make a difference. There are many MMORPGers that I've talked to that won't touch this game simply because there's no PvP in any form. Granted, these are just a few people, but it's an instance of what I'm trying to get at.

FFXI will do well as you said. In reality, it doesn't even need to be released here, Square considers it a success already. Anything extra over here is icing on the cake. *shrug*

Edit: That should read, no PvP in any form YET. Heh.

[Zale00]

heh well damn, arnt you the cocky one.
Sorry to dissapoint you, but I have been knowing that EQ has had 400,000+ subscribers for a while. I dont know where ya got the idea that I didnt know that. Maybe just lookin for another sarcastic remark.

I was just trying to make the point that I think FFXI is going to be one of the biggest MMORPGs if not THE biggest. (although lineage is pretty big I hear)

lol sony knows the market better than me? How did you get on that subject? Where in my post did I say anything about marketing? Most of the things that you said were just opinions that you tried to state as fact....

"The hard drive will undoubtedly not sell very well in the US"
"Console gamers in general aren't interested in PC-style games"
"It may be hot stuff in Japan, but it isn't on these shores"
"The majority of gamers really don't care."

oh and...
"Yeah, I agree, his logic is flawed" isn't much of an argument. Nice try though."

It was a argument? I was arguing? Lol.

cmon now, you just convinced me more that you have "flawed logic." So Sad.

[Paiku]

Originally posted by Zale00
heh well damn, arnt you the cocky one.

Thanks.

Sorry to dissapoint you, but I have been knowing that EQ has had 400,000+ subscribers for a while. I dont know where ya got the idea that I didnt know that. Maybe just lookin for another sarcastic remark.

One can only assume you didn't know, because if you did know, then you'd also know that it made your attempt at a point totally moot.

Some might interpret that as an admission of being stupid.

I was just trying to make the point that FFXI is going to be one of the biggest MMORPGs if not THE biggest. (although lineage is pretty big I hear)

It will be a very successful MMORPG, yes. But your post didn't imply that, your post was merely a chime-in-agreement with the other poster.

lol sony knows the market better than me? How did you get on that subject? Where in my post did I say anything about marketing? Most of the things that you said were just opinions that you tried to state as fact....

The majority of what I said IS fact. My belief that FFXI won't sell as well is an opinion, yes. But it is a well-thought-out opinion.

As for where marketing came in, it's apparent that you're yet another who's incapable of applying what you read to anything in particular, such as the topic at hand.

It was a argument? I was arguing? Lol.

The definition of argument.

cmon now, you just convinced me more that you have "flawed logic." So Sad.

So sad.

What's sad is that there are some who apparently don't know what the word "argument" means. At least I have a grasp of basic words in the English language.

I'm done with you too. Entertain yourself by typing up a reply with "lol" or "ROFL" a few times, I'm sure it'll make you think you're really clever.

[voradore]

No need to be fighting about how FFXI is going to do against EQ because well its to early to tell, what i can tell you is that eq is going to lose people to this game as is several other MMOs I know this becasue i play some of them. I have also played eq for 3 years now and want to quit it for this game. The Market for MMO is constantly changing you never know what will happen till it happens.