[Armando]

Eh not necessarily. There are plenty of Christian & Catholic references involving the Sword as well (hi2u Sword of Michael)

Yes, but we're not talking about Christianity in general, we're talking about Alexander specifically, and Alexander is characterized for its defence. You're already stretching it by equating Alexander to one or two weapons, trying to equate him to a very large selection of weapons is really grasping at straws.

Now, who was in left in charge of overseeing these little rips in time-space that Alexander and Odin left behind.

Completely forgot about this.

[Malacite]

>.> so, you're suggesting that Alexander will manifest himself within Shantotto next?

That's certainly a possibility.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Malacite

>.> so, you're suggesting that Alexander will manifest himself within Shantotto next?

That's certainly a possibility.

Well, these mini-expansions have taken a loose thread or two and tied them up. ACP took the one totally random detail of CoP left and explained it fully. I always have had a hunch that Shantotto being permitted to watch over the rips in space-time might have led to her experiments in her expansion.

It is the one loose thread of ToA that needs addressing and they don't particularly have to do with with ToA itself, again seeing as Windurst Rank and questing Fenrir weren't connected by story. Fenrir debuted in Windurst Rank 10, but was quested through a complete different set of requirements one update later.

I think the update for Fenrir came a month after the Rank 10 updates, if I'm recalling it correctly

What's controlling Shantotto, however, is totally up in the air.

[Malacite]

Refresh my memory, what was it ACP cleared up again? Or were you referring to fate of Aldo's sister?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Aldo's sister, yeah, she was in the CoP cutscenes for Selbina, too.

Based off her flashback, she was the one Shadow Lord took to Bearclaw Pinnacle to set Odin free from his protocrystal. Verona was used by the Zilart in a similar way to open the gate of the gods, after all, she had to communicate with the Shadow Lord's remains to do it. Mathidle also knew Ulmia somehow and the Lay of the Immortals, so its safe to presume they were in the same choir.

I think there is something to the theory of content related to Odin and Alexander coming up. They've had subtle influence in the CoP story, they were big players in ToA and since Odin lives to stir up strife, he had a part to play in the Crystal War, even if he didn't maintain a huge presence.

[Karinya]

Heck, just the fact that Odin's protocrystal was in the Northlands is enough to make me suspect a connection with SL. Maybe R******* became Odin's vessel (or whatever it's called) the same way he wanted Luzaf to be. (And doesn't it seem likely that the Lord of the Underworld might have something to do with what happened to the Hydra Corps?) And if Odin is on one side of a war, it probably wouldn't take much for Alexander to find some way to be on the other side.

I suspect we'll find out more in the rest of the WotG storyline.

[Malacite]

Well, was Raogrim given power by Odin himself, thus making him the Shadowlord?

Or did he just "travel to hell" as it was written (I forget where exactly...) to make a deal with him for his Army of Kindred? I could be wrong, but it seems blatantly obvious to me Odin was the one who cursed Xarcabard. But then wtf the Ephramadian Deity was doing in the middle lands is beyond me.

It was a piece of magicite that they found in the caves right, not his crystal?

[Ziero]

Odin gave the Shadowlord his power and his army of Kindred minions, I thought that was common knowledge by now. It's just like how he tried to stir up war in ToAU as well.

But ACP really didn't affect any of the other standing stories at all, it just reused characters who's story was, well, more or less non-existent. That's kind of the reason why they used her for ACPs story, she did so little yet was supposedly really important. Except even after ACP, she's still not all that important, but at least she had her 5 minutes of fame. They also claimed that ACP would be the only Add-on that had any ties to pre-existing content, but they wouldn't actually affect the story itself. Which is didn't.

MKT had nothing to do with any other storyline, it was just a light hearted side story. As will ASA, which is supposedly quite humorous...in SE words anyway. I doubt we'll see Odin or Alex have anything to do with Shantotto. Much like I doubt we'll see Odin or Alexander have anything to do with those two weapons. Odin already has his endgame super boss fight, much like Bahamut. And Alex, storywise, can't be awakened, even a little, because if he is then him and Odin would duke it out and blow up the world.

I mean, we already know of at least one new "non-avatar" Avatar (since SE stated what we'll be getting aren't specifically Avatars) we'll be getting sooner or later. We've already seen in action in the WotG missions. We also know we're only getting two Avatars, and the one we know of is neither Alex or Odin. Add in the fact that you have to make a wild, speculative leap to even link the two weapons in question to Alex and Odin, and it just keeps pointing out the fact that we won't see them. We have a better chance at getting Phoenix at this point compared to getting Alex and Odin.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Ziero

Odin gave the Shadowlord his power and his army of Kindred minions, I thought that was common knowledge by now. It's just like how he tried to stir up war in ToAU as well.

Its not directly covered in the Rank, Zilart, CoP, ToA or WotG missions. Not one. Thus, its not common knowledge, you have to dig into to lore or do Dynamis to even get a hint and Dynamis is pretty obscure about the details. Some of us really hate Dynamis or just the people we'd have to do it with and will never touch it.

But if you put CoP and ACP togther, you get a better picture of what happened. Odin and Alexander were not in CoP by name, but they did have ties to it. The more expansions that come around, the more and more thier actions are made clear, though.

But ACP really didn't affect any of the other standing stories at all, it just reused characters who's story was, well, more or less non-existent. That's kind of the reason why they used her for ACPs story, she did so little yet was supposedly really important. Except even after ACP, she's still not all that important, but at least she had her 5 minutes of fame. They also claimed that ACP would be the only Add-on that had any ties to pre-existing content, but they wouldn't actually affect the story itself. Which is didn't.

Yeah, finding out what happened to Aldo's sister after the Fall of Tavnazia - totally not important.
Her breakingl Odin's Protocrystal - not a big detail in the slightest.
Connection to Ulmia - Not important.
And the fact she knows the last verse to a song that can end the world - not important at all.

She's a very minor detail at best. Were she to fall into the thrall of some other evil force, nothing would come of it.

As will ASA, which is supposedly quite humorous...in SE words anyway. I doubt we'll see Odin or Alex have anything to do with Shantotto. Much like I doubt we'll see Odin or Alexander have anything to do with those two weapons. Odin already has his endgame super boss fight, much like Bahamut. And Alex, storywise, can't be awakened, even a little, because if he is then him and Odin would duke it out and blow up the world.

They don't have to have anything to do with Shantotto. If the Astral Gates served as the spark for her experiments, that's all the connection that's needed. Experiments have unintended and unseen consequences at times. People don't have to do ASA for something with Odin and Alexander to happen.

Again, Rank 10 Windurst was Fenrir's debut, you didn't unlock Fenrir for beating Rank 10. Gaining Fenrir as a summon was totally separate from that save for one small, but touching, story bonus to Windurstians that completed both.

Also, if Odin and Alexander come and go from the Realm of the Avatars as they please, they are subject to the laws of summoning so lot as they remain inside the realm. Its outside the realm that they require a human host to exist at all. As of ToA's end, neither have a host last I checked.

So long as they remain awakened, they'll go after each other.

So long as.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Its not directly covered in the Rank, Zilart, CoP, ToA or WotG missions. Not one. Thus, its not common knowledge, you have to dig into to lore or do Dynamis to even get a hint. Some of us really hate Dynamis or just the people we'd have to do it with and will never touch it.

But if you put CoP and ACP togther, you get the picture of what happened. Odin and Alexander were not in CoP by name, but they did have ties to it.

Really? I could have sworn it was mentioned somewhere. I mean, I certainly don't do Dynamis nor do I know the full story behind it so I must have learned it somewhere else. I mean, I know it was mentioned that the Kindred were a gift to the Shadow Lord and that he didn't create them, and that some dark power, which turned out to be Odin, offered to give Raogrim his power initially so he could wage war and wreak havoc. That's kinda what Odin does, he's not evil, he's just chaos. He did the same thing to Luzaf in ToAU.

Yeah, finding out what happened to Aldo's sister after the Fall of Tavnazia - totally not important.
Her breakingl Odin's Protocrystal - not a big detail in the slightest.
Connection to Ulmia - Not important.
And the fact she knows the last verse to a song that can end the world - not important at all.

She's a very minor detail at best. Were she to fall into the thrall of some other evil force, nothing would come of it.

...she kinda is. I mean, if she was that important why didn't she play a bigger part in the rest of those stories? She was a foot note in CoP that was touched upon but never really dealt with so they went back to her for ACP. But other then her specifically, CoP was wrapped up pretty tightly.

Again, Rank 10 Windurst was Fenrir's debut, you didn't unlock Fenrir for beating Rank 10. Gaining Fenrir as a summon was totally separate from that save for one small, but touching, story bonus to Windurstians that completed both.

And Diabolos debuted in CoP and you couldn't get him until a few months later. But both were still gained in the same expansions they debuted in, just a few months down the line. Alex and Odin have been in the game for two years, one of these guys already has an alliance sized endgame event and drops gear specifically linked to him. Add in the fact that another, new, "Avatar" has debuted in this expansion and has even appeared in a fight in this expansions mission line already, and it kind of puts a bright big neon sign over his head.

The more you try and argue for those two, the weaker the argument gets.

Even if the gate is mentioned, it doesn't mean they'll give us Alexander. It'll be a reference to a previous expansion...that kind of ruins the story if it goes into any detail, but it's still far from "paving the way".

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Ziero

And Diabolos debuted in CoP and you couldn't get him until a few months later. But both were still gained in the same expansions they debuted in, just a few months down the line. Alex and Odin have been in the game for two years, one of these guys already has an alliance sized endgame event and drops gear specifically linked to him. Add in the fact that another, new, "Avatar" has debuted in this expansion and has even appeared in a fight in this expansions mission line already, and it kind of puts a bright big neon sign over his head.

The more you try and argue for those two, the weaker the argument gets.

Even if the gate is mentioned, it doesn't mean they'll give us Alexander. It'll be a reference to a previous expansion...that kind of ruins the story if it goes into any detail, but it's still far from "paving the way".

The final fank missions were in place at US PS2 launch, Fenrir came a month after, not three. Diabolos couldn't even be challenged til near the end of CoPs, roughly five months out from ToA. Right around the RNG nerf, since that and BLMs were major endgame burners at the time and wannabe RNGs flocked to the next best things they could find at the time.

Its cool you think Cait Sith is an avatar, but by myth Cait Sith is a mischievous fairy. SE also said "Large Avatars" - Cait Sith is small at best.

Say what you want about what SE can write in, but they tend do put up some literal interpretations when it comes to mythology, religion and NMs. This even comes down to what attacks they do and what element they align with.

Yes, yes, Bahamut was a whale, but Final Fantasy was also based on DnD lore, in which Bahamut and Tiamat are dragons.Where do you think Flayers and Ahrimans came from?

Einherjar isn't exactly an avatar battle you can just quest. As pointed out, Odin is awakened, but he comes and goes from the realm of the avatars. That's not something I'm writing in - we see that in the ToA story. If we can somehow tap access to the realm of the avatars, we can challenge Odin and Alexander as summons. Its all a matter of making them sleep.

[hexx]

As far as avatars is concerned, I'm pretty sure Atomos is the next one, since he has already shown himself in battle towards the latter parts of WoTG. And as unimportant as Aldo's sister comes off as, both her and Aldo are the first two characters any of us got introduced to when we FIRST loaded and booted up the game, so calling her a footnote is a bit of an understatement. I mean hell look at Lion, she plays a HUGE role in CoP and yet none of us figure it out till a certain set of battles are done >.>

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

The final fank missions were in place at US PS2 launch, Fenrir came a month after, not three. Diabolos couldn't even be challenged til near the end of CoPs, roughly five months out from ToA. Right around the RNG nerf, since that and BLMs were major endgame burners at the time and wannabe RNGs flocked to the next best things they could find at the time.

Its cool you think Cait Sith is an avatar, but by myth Cait Sith is a mischievous fairy. SE also said "Large Avatars" - Cait Sith is small at best.

Einherjar isn't exactly an avatar battle you can just quest. As pointed out, Odin is awakened, but he comes and goes from the realm of the avatars. That's not something I'm writing in - we see that in the ToA story. If we can somehow tap access to the realm of the avatars, we can challenge Odin and Alexander as summons. Its all a matter of making them sleep.

Err, Fenrir was added before the NA PS2 launch too. He was added in February 04 and FFXI came out on NAPS2s in march. But even if he did come out after, and even if Diabolos still came out a few months after his debut, they were still added as usable Avatars in the same expansion they debuted in. That's kind of a major issue seeing as SE said we were done with ToAU content and both Alex and Odin are directly tied to it.

And it's not Cait Sith, try again. Little hint, the Avatar in question already acts like an Avatar.

Einherjar doesn't have to act like an Avatar battle, it's not supposed to. Bahamut's fights aren't Avatar battles either, they're just a way to let players fight an awesome looking monster. The very fact that Odin is already awakened gives him absolutely no reason to lend you his power unless you're going to go around trying to start a war (like the last two people he granted power to). With the other Avatars, we gain their powers in an attempt to show them we're worth not destroying when they do eventually wake up. With Odin, he's already awake and he's already causing trouble. His goal isn't the return to paradise like the others, his goal is to awaken Alexander so they can battle till the end of time. For Odin to go back to sleep, he would need his Crystal repaired. It would also mean that Einherjar would no longer exist with him as the final boss. And all these changes would have to be made well over two years after ToAU had ended.

All this speculation is the result of a wild guess based on two weapons which have absolutely nothing to do with either Odin or Alexander. We're not getting them.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Your case for Atomos is as good as anyone's case for Odin and Alexander at this point. I still find it suspect since a spirit of mischief summoned him. Cait Sith exists to mislead.

Cait Sith is derived from three sources: Celtic Folklore, the Puss-in-Boots story and the Maneki Neko of Japanese culture.

The Cait Sith (prnounced caught see) of Celtic lore is a harbringer of ill omen or just caused mischief, its why bad luck is associated with Black Cats.

The design, though, is inspired by Puss-in-Boots. Puss-in-Boots promised his owner wealth in exchange for a bag and some boots. And while he did bring his owner wealth, he lied and caused lots of problems for that to happen.

The Maneki Neko is the "welcoming" or "money" cat statue you see in Japan. It is believed to bring good fortune.

Roll this all together and we have FF Cait Sith. Each time ir as come along as a character, it hasn't exactly be a trustworthy ally. We can only expect trouble in some form or at some point from a Cait Sith.

So this one summons Atomos. She's told us she's here to set things right, only to summon a living void that wants to make sure it consumes all existence. This doesn't do the good guys or the bad guys any good.

Celestial avatars want dominion over their opposites (Chaotic). Terrestrials want to maintain the status quo so they can still have power (Lawful).

Atomos wants all to become nothing. I don't think he's a fit. No one likes a party-pooper.

What would be the reward for fighting him?

Nothing, obviously.

[Ziero]

Seriously, that's what you're going with? Introducing a new big name FF summon, having his name and likeness plastered all over the world of the current expansion, allowing you to see him in battle being used as a summon in the middle of a mission chain, all of that is just a ruse to make people think they're getting him when in fact we're actually getting two Avatars that were introduced in the last expansion over two years ago?

So what would the requirements be for getting Odin and Alex? Would you need to beat both all of the ToAU missions and Einherjar just to get access to each one's fight? Those seem a bit steep, but they wouldn't work if you could get them before doing that. And what would Odin and Alex get from lending you their power? Odin wants to bring war and chaos to the world, where people battle and suffer needlessly. Are you, the good guy, going to go about spreading his will and bringing war to the world around you? Because that's what the last two people who gained his powers did. And Alex doesn't even care about people, they're just the gateway for him to come in and start blasting everything and anything until all that's left is nothing. He wants perfect order and the only way to do that is to destroy anything that can disrupt that order (i.e. life). Are you, as the good guy, going to help him in that goal, because if not he doesn't really care what you want.

The six elemental celestial Avatars want to return the world to Paradise, not beat each other up. They want to destroy everything and bring the universe back to the state it was in before they slumbered. It's only Odin(Chaos) and Alexander(Order) who are feuding rivals who care about nothing more then eliminating the other. And they'll stop at nothing to accomplish that goal. So why in the hell would both of them grant their power to a single being?

We already know the deal with Cait Sith, there's not just one, there's dozens, and each one has it's own personalities and goals. One actually wants to help us, the other wants to destroy us, and another just doesn't care. So each and every different Cait Sith is a completely different being with it's own personality, goals and desires. What one does doesn't affect what the others do so there is no contradiction.

We don't know what Atomos itself wants, we just know what it's doing. It's the source of the rip, but not the cause. Something else was behind all this and we're slowly finding out what it is. Atomos is a tool being used by the real villain to perpetrate this distortion, but if players were to gain access to his powers, they could help set things right by using his strength to balance the world.

Now what good would come from summoning two Avatars who are already awakened in which one is actively and constantly bringing war and carnage to the world and the other is trying to eliminate all life and disorder in the world all by himself?

p.s. there's also that little fact that SE said the next two Avatars wouldn't actually be traditional Avatars, but a new type of being all together. Guess who fits into that description and who doesn't.