[Takelli]

I was arguing with some one in game with a party I was in ealier about merrit parties, and how /nin is the best option as there is no straight tank in merrit parties.

He kept saying that EVERYONE should be /nin, and there should be no one to take any damage for the DDs.

Now... I am a person who HATES leveling any job such as Ninja. They suck with holding hate, they cost way too much money, and they are WAY over rated, Oh, and they are also a very boring job to level as well. I also hate leveling any job that costs money to deal damage (Such as having to shoot arrows, or bolts at something to deal damage. Thats basically throwing away your money.)

He kept saying /nin /nin/ /nin for all the DDs. ( And the party is ONLY DDs for merrits). And that is the only way to reach 30k/hour in a merrit party.

I was saying that you should be able to get 25k/hour with a Pld, DD, DD, DD, Support, and healer for a merrit party like a normal party can. And he kept arguing with me NONE STOP that you can get a max of 14/hour exp with that set up. Even doing skill chains, and Magic bursting.

Now, is this guy right or no? If he is. I should just quit right now because I REALLY EFFING HATE playing as Ninja, or as /ninja as it does NOTHING to help kill faster in a party, and, it will make you go poor VERY quickly as once a tool is used, you cant get it back. (Stack of Shihei goes for 3,300 gil on my server atm, so that is 275/Shihei. Every 30 seconds over the course of 3 hours will add up too.... 99,000 gil if you have to use a Shihei every 30 seconds for a normal 3 hour party.)

[Tickmeoff]

Merit.

[Rothy]

I don't see why you should refuse to level a job that will help you in many aspects.

What are your main jobs?

[Takelli]

Main Jobs?

Rdm (60) Drk (32), Thf (30), and Whm (30). I have ninja lvld to 34, but I cant bring myself to level it any more. the first 30 levels where hell to me, and the last 4 I couldn't stand the damn job any more.

How can a ninja help me in many aspects any ways? If the tank can hold hate (And I know how far I can, and cant push hate), then why should I have to sub ninja?

[Rothy]

Originally Posted by Takelli

How can a ninja help me in many aspects any ways? If the tank can hold hate (And I know how far I can, and cant push hate), then why should I have to sub ninja?

Because no one uses tanks later on.

RDM/NIN for soloing and various BCNMs.
THF/NIN for pulling and soloing.
WHM/NIN is great damage if you gear right.
DRK/NIN.. you pull enough hate even with /NIN, why give your healers a heart attack by stacking /WAR or /SAM?

If its 34, Campaign Ops.. EXP Scrolls.. Hell even SMN Burn.. but if its on 34, man up and take it to 37. It's useful.

[Grizzlebeard]

All depends on the setup but common builds I find, including me on Cor, have a Rdm/Whm, Brd/Nin, and then a mix of War/Nin or /Sam, Drg/Sam, Sam/Drg. Equally, I've had a party with me on Cor and five Drg subbing either Whm or Blu. Since I returned in February I've yet to join merit party with a Pld in.

Originally Posted by Takelli

They suck with holding hate, they cost way too much money, and they are WAY over rated,

This is only because there's a glut of really shitty, lazy ninjas out there. A well-played and geared ninja is an asset in most situations. Just because the ones you've probably come across do fuck all except voke every 30 seconds and apply shadows doesn't mean that's the way everyone plays.

[Rothy]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

This is only because there's a glut of really shitty, lazy ninjas out there. A well-played and geared ninja is an asset in most situations. Just because the ones you've probably come across do fuck all except voke every 30 seconds and apply shadows doesn't mean that's the way everyone plays.

Elemental Wheel and Status Effect Ninjutsu own. All Ninja should use and love them.

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Rothy

DRK/NIN.. you pull enough hate even with /NIN, why give your healers a heart attack by stacking /WAR or /SAM?

If its 34, Campaign Ops.. EXP Scrolls.. Hell even SMN Burn.. but if its on 34, man up and take it to 37. It's useful.

I am as /thf. So as 60, If I do happen to pull hate, I can just Trick Attack the tank. Then Drain, and turn my back until some hate is gone from me, then continue to melee. But if the tank knows how to tank, and I don't cross the hate threshold, then why should I be forced to sub a job that I HATE with every fiber of my being?

Yea, I can take it to 37, I can even solo it to 37, or party in it to 37. But will I ever sub it? No. Will I ever want to touch it again? No. I hate how ninja is played, and how the player community made it out to be. And then when I get it to 37, I will be FORCED to get Utsuemi: Ni. That scroll is so damn expensive, and so hard to obtain, its not worth it IMO. You already spent about 1 mil just to get the job to 37, why spend 400k more just to get a scroll, or spend HOURS upon HOURS trying to get it from BCNMs.

I'm not made of money, I'm not rich in the game. Hell, I never had over 100k at any one time. The only reason why I ever got a Hauby, and Hauberk was because of under cutters, and the same with spells. I farmed most of my spells I got for my Rdm. Same with Drk.

I'm not trying to start an argument here. Im just saying. Why should I have to level a job that I don't like playing, just so that I can merrit, and do end game. A game shoul be played for fun. Playing a job you don't like isn't fun.

---------- Post added at 04:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Rothy

Elemental Wheel and Status Effect Ninjutsu own. All Ninja should use and love them.

even a few that so use them suck and they gimp out on their gear, as they cant afford the gear.

When I played as Nin, I didn't use any other spells besides Utsusemi as the tools take up too much inv room, and are WAY to costly along with Shihei. And I never had any issues holding hate. When I lost hate, I told peopel to back off for a sec til I got hate back, then theyd start whacking away again.

[Rothy]

Originally Posted by Takelli

I don't cross the hate threshold, then why should I be forced to sub a job that I HATE with every fiber of my being?

Because its useful and helps other people.

Originally Posted by Takelli

Yea, I can take it to 37, I can even solo it to 37, or party in it to 37.

Well do it.

Originally Posted by Takelli

I'm not made of money, I'm not rich in the game. Hell, I never had over 100k at any one time. The only reason why I ever got a Hauby, and Hauberk was because of under cutters, and the same with spells. I farmed most of my spells I got for my Rdm. Same with Drk.

Farm, everyone has to.. I'm pretty sure there is a nice farming guide in General Discussion.

Originally Posted by Takelli

Why should I have to level a job that I don't like playing, just so that I can merrit, and do end game. A game shoul be played for fun. Playing a job you don't like isn't fun.

You pay your money to play, so you should enjoy it right..? What about all the other people who worked their ass off to get the good gear, good merits and good subjobs so they can enjoy the game? They don't deserve to have it ruined because some other people don't wanna put in the effort. You can go without the sub if you want, but you better not whine when you get booted out of Endgame linkshells and merit parties.

I sure as hell wouldn't keep you.

[Takelli]

But, if I don't cross the hate threshold, then why would it be an issues? I know how to handle hate, and how to get rid of it if I happen to pull hate. The tanks should learn how to hold hate as well. If I just sit there, and not weapon skill, just melee, and I pull hate, the tank isn't doing their job. And I've pulled hate more than enough times by just hitting the monster, with out doing ANYTHING else. The tanks aren't doing their job by holding hate.

Like I said before. I HATE the job. I hate how it costs so much money. 99k/3 hours just to level. Its not worth it. Oh, and all the money you spend on other tools as well? That reaches well over 150k/3 hours.

I've farmed. i can farm for days and days, and not get much. SE killed the Bird Blood, and the Leech Saliva market for EVERYONE becuase RMT where exploiting the Bird Blood, and Beast Blood. If they didn't kill the Leech Saliva, I wouldn't complain as I'd still have some way to make some money. I've looked for farming guides, I;ve looked for ways to make money. NOTHING works to help keep your money at a steady rate while you are leveing ninja.

Yea. They can enjoy the game too, if they know how not to pass the hate threshold, and the tanks can hold hate. I worked my ass off as well trying to keep my rdm gear up to date, and spells. Keeping my Drks gear up to date, and makeing sure I have defensive gear incase I pull hate. Did my homework about hate levels, and how to get rid of hate incase I pull it. I wont whine when I get booted from end game linkshells. Merrit parties? Hell, I'd just go toe the dunes and merrit there while talking to the people and having fun with them. Hell, I'd make my own merrit parties if I cant get one. I make 95% of all my parties any ways.

I wont ruin their fun because I HATE ninja, I'll just get people who know how to deal with hate in my parties, and know how to keep hate, and know about the hate levels.

[Rothy]

Answer this one question you keep skipping for me then.. Who actually uses a tank in ToAU and if you go elsewhere, how will you obtain 25k/hr with downtime?

[Takelli]

As I levled my Sam from 54-75 in ToAU, I had a tank in EVERY party I was in, and they all went smoothly. we didn't get max Exp, but we had a lot of fun. even a few of the parties we where Scing+Mbing.

As for the 25k/hour party with down time. It isn't (might be) possible, but with the old school camps, and having a skilled black mage(Doesnt even have to be skilled) in your party, and having people that want to Skill chain, you can have a VERY fun party. To me, if I am having fun in a party, and everyone else is having fun, and we are getting decent exp, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that the game is fun for everyone who plays it.

[Rothy]

Originally Posted by Takelli

I was saying that you should be able to get 25k/hour with a Pld, DD, DD, DD, Support, and healer for a merrit party like a normal party can. And he kept arguing with me NONE STOP that you can get a max of 14/hour exp with that set up. Even doing skill chains, and Magic bursting.

vs.

Originally Posted by Takelli

As for the 25k/hour party with down time. It isn't (might be) possible, but with the old school camps, and having a skilled black mage(Doesnt even have to be skilled) in your party, and having people that want to Skill chain, you can have a VERY fun party. To me, if I am having fun in a party, and everyone else is having fun, and we are getting decent exp, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that the game is fun for everyone who plays it.

I'm confused now.

[Takelli]

The first post is talking about a party on Colibri as they have horrible defense, and it is really easy to get to 25k/hour for exp.

The second is for an old school camp where monsters are actually stronger, and require a party to actually work together and kill the monster rather than just semi afking while auto attacking on the Greater Colibri.

I wasn't really clear on the target monster as the target monster can make a HUGE difference in exp gain.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Takelli

He kept saying /nin /nin/ /nin for all the DDs. ( And the party is ONLY DDs for merrits). And that is the only way to reach 30k/hour in a merrit party.

I was saying that you should be able to get 25k/hour with a Pld, DD, DD, DD, Support, and healer for a merrit party like a normal party can.

PLD75, RDM75, and BRD75 here; have done merit parties on all three jobs, and have 235 merit points on my character. (That's what? 2,350,000 limit points? I think I have about as many limit points as experience points. lol.)

There are very few PLDs who have the gears to perform as an acceptable DDs. To be brutal about it, I've not met a single one. (That includes myself, and I do have a "DD setup" for my PLD--actually, I've a TP set and a WS set.)

Excluding exp bands and PLD with extraordinary gears, your setup (of PLD, DDx3, Support, Healer) will not get 20k/hour as base exp in any camp, nevermind 25k/hour.

Originally Posted by Takelli

And he kept arguing with me NONE STOP that you can get a max of 14/hour exp with that set up. Even doing skill chains, and Magic bursting.

I've seen 17k+ base exp/hour with this setup: PLD/WAR, RNG/NIN, BLU/NIN, SAM/NIN, BRD/NIN, RDM/WHM. Greater Colibri, no SC, no MB--SC and MB would have only slowed down the exp. Both of you were wrong.

Originally Posted by Takelli

as /ninja as it does NOTHING to help kill faster in a party

You're way off.

If healers are out of MP from curing DDs, the party better stop or risk KO or even wipe. Nothing kills your exp/hour more than a KO in a party, except more than one person biting the dust. Spending MP on cure instead of Haste isn't good for exp/hour, of course. Downtime to heal MP is not productive to exp/hour, either. Holding back on damage output to reduce damage taken isn't good for exp/hour. Adding more healers take away spots which can be used for DD, which usually isn't good for exp/hour.

/NIN can help with all those things listed above; damage mitigation from Utusemi means you can avoid most consequences of doing a lot of damage to a monster.

Even using /THF to plant enmity on a 'tank' isn't as smart as it sounds; much better to bounce critter around so no one has to spend much time casting Ichi; sticking to Ni mostly gives the entire front line more time to do damage, and that is better.

Heck, when DDs are strong enough, killing faster can actually be bad for the exp/hour--you can wipe out monsters at certain camps faster than the repop rate, and end up breaking the exp chain. At that point, you take out a DD and add a COR, and use Corsair's Roll to increase exp/hour instead.