[Takelli]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

For those saying DD/NIN isn't the best for merit party, I'd like to say "It depends."

I agree with that statement. Some DD shouldn't sub nin as well. Sam for example.. They have Seigan and Third eye. And at the rate of which Merrit parties kill from what people say... SeiganThird eye will last them long enough with out the use of any other "Blinking".

The DDs that don't know how to handle hate in parties are /nin, because they never learned how far they can push the line, before they have to pull back for a second. Hell, I've pushed hate too far before (Then got a goblin rush for 500 damage to the face before, and that was as /nin), and that was even when the monster was below 1/4 hp left. If a DD doesn't know how to let the tank keep hate, then yea... They will be subbing ninja as they don't want to take damage, and don't know how to handle anything if they have hate.

---------- Post added at 06:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Durahansolo

Does thf offer anything except steal at that level? But then too at that level I was subbing BLU for kicks so I wouldn't have to /WAR.

What I hate is when I see /nins in the dunes. I mean I used to hate seeing peeps sub nin just to dual wield (20-23) but now that I've been playing a little bit longer I understand that mentality.

It does offer a some extra Dex, which turns into a better accuracy at that level. I wouldn't sub /war, as my acc would have been sucky. When I did /war, I noticed my acc sucked, then I went to /thf, and my acc saw a much better hit rate, and even a better crit rate as well, and mosnters died faster as I was able to hit them more often. And at level 30, with a capped eva, I can even dodge a few attack from IT+ mobs, and when soloing, its insane how many attacks miss me because of /thfs eva bonus.

Then, I can sleep/Sneak Attack as well which furthers a kill speed.

[Aksannyi]

It's tricky for a lot of DDs because they're not used to anything but having a solid tank. They don't realize that when they're in a party bouncing hate, they have to regulate themselves. So many people in FF are absolute idiots who can't even count to three shadows, let alone realize when they're about to take hate.

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Aksannyi

It's tricky for a lot of DDs because they're not used to anything but having a solid tank. They don't realize that when they're in a party bouncing hate, they have to regulate themselves. So many people in FF are absolute idiots who can't even count to three shadows, let alone realize when they're about to take hate.

Heh. When I was using /nin, my shadows fell as soon as I put them up (And that was with out even using a WS, or anything else in a party as the tanks couldn't hold hate to save their ass), and because of that, I was taking lots of damage.

I think if nin wasn't in the game... A LOT of people would actually have to pay attention and play the game the way it was meant to be, not have all /nin as a safety net for those that want to just half ass most of their play time, and not even work for their merrits like they used to do (Pre ToAU, and when Mbing+Scing was popular)/

[Durahansolo]

Originally Posted by Takelli

It does offer a some extra Dex, which turns into a better accuracy at that level.

(There's really no need in me saying this since you are probably way farther in DRK now than you were then.)

I'm not sure what race you were playing as, but I checked all of them and THF offers 1 more point of DEX than Warrior at 17. Warrior also gives you 2 extra points of STR. Jack-o' Lanterns would've cured accuracy problems very easily and given you +10 evasion as well. .

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Durahansolo

I'm not sure what race you were playing as, but I checked all of them and THF offers 1 more point of DEX than Warrior at 17. Warrior also gives you 2 extra points of STR. Jack-o' Lanterns would've cured accuracy problems very easily and given you +10 evasion as well. .

I am playing as Mithra. I had forgotten about the Jack-O-Lanterns, but my acc as /Thf was good enough. Or may be I just got lucky with my acc when I subbed thf? Meh. It happens lol

[Tickmeoff]

Originally Posted by Takelli

It does offer a some extra Dex, which turns into a better accuracy at that level. I wouldn't sub /war, as my acc would have been sucky. When I did /war, I noticed my acc sucked, then I went to /thf, and my acc saw a much better hit rate, and even a better crit rate as well, and mosnters died faster as I was able to hit them more often.

Yeah, this is just you eyeballing things. You wouldn't get any significant amount of DEX from subbing THF at this (or any) level.

Although honestly, when you're in the dunes your sub hardly matters, but they were right to say you were making a mistake subbing THF before 30.

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Tickmeoff

Although honestly, when you're in the dunes your sub hardly matters, but they were right to say you were making a mistake subbing THF before 30.

I know. but yelling at me for not subbing ninja though. Even in the dunes?

[Icemage]

Back on topic:

/NIN DDs make for very stable merit parties.

It's not that you can't "control hate" by holding back, it simply does not work when some DDs are /NIN and others aren't (exception: SAM and obviously main job NIN).

What eventually happens when some DDs are /NIN and others aren't is that the ones that get hit bleed hate faster, which leaves the ones who are /NIN to take the brunt of the tanking. The /NINs are therefore losing time because they're spending a lot more time casting Utsusemi: Ichi, while the "controlled" DDs without shadows are holding back damage to avoid getting hit.

...and that's when everything is working properly.

When it DOESN'T work properly, you end up with people who don't know how to ride the hateline and take a bunch of damage, which causes your healers to run low/out of MP, and all of a sudden you're looking at broken XP chains.

There is a quite large quantum leap of XP gain difference between a party that can indefinitely chain enemies (25K++) versus one that has to rest every once in a while because the healers are out of MP (15-18K max).

P.S. Oh, and /THF in a merit burn party? Surely you jest.


Icemage

[Takelli]

I never said I was going to be /thf in a merrit party. I just ike the Damage that I can do if something needs to fall fast in a normal exp party. Also, IF I happen to pull hate off a some one who knows how to tank, I have a better chance at evading an attack. rather than just subbing ninja, and not having a chance of making something fall from a garenteed Ws critical, than a none garenteed weapon skill critical.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Takelli

I never said I was going to be /thf in a merrit party. I just ike the Damage that I can do if something needs to fall fast in a normal exp party. Also, IF I happen to pull hate off a some one who knows how to tank, I have a better chance at evading an attack. rather than just subbing ninja, and not having a chance of making something fall from a garenteed Ws critical, than a none garenteed weapon skill critical.

While true, this is still a cop-out excuse to avoid something you don't like doing but will still benefit the party.

Utsusemi: Ni takes 1.5 seconds to cast and delivers 3 guaranteed evaded hits for no cost to the party's MP or HP total. Decent merit parties are not limited by their damage output.

Your response?


Icemage

[Takelli]

If the party kills fast enough as what everyone says it does, then you wont need to use any shadows to avaid any hits as kill wtill be so fast, you wont be hit.

A lot of the peole are saying about... 10-15 seconds a fight. Your going to get hit what... 3 times max with out ninja?

Thats not that much damage to be taking. If theres a War/Sam, or Sam/War, and a Pld. They can share provoking, and have it so that no one but they take damage. But if done correclty, they should take very little damage at all.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Takelli

Everyone who I have talked to says I should nin nomatter what.

Pretty sure you are exaggerating, unless you only hang around fools.

Originally Posted by Takelli

(I was yelled at in the dunes being drk/thf at lvl 17... LOL at them.)

/THF is pretty useless at that level. For DRK17, I'd go with /RNG for Accuracy Bonus, /BRD for Army's Paeon, /DNC for Drain Samba, /WAR for Provoke, or /WHM for Cure. Don't think /THF or /NIN is useful there at all.

I wouldn't laugh at someone for going DRK/THF at that level, but I'd ask for another SJ if possible.

Originally Posted by Takelli

but my acc as /Thf was good enough. Or may be I just got lucky with my acc when I subbed thf? Meh. It happens lol

Eyeballing accuracy is an automatic failure.


And, a truth worth quoting:

Originally Posted by Icemage

Decent merit parties are not limited by their damage output.

* * *

Any BRD who just want to roll his/her eyes every time someone says "We don't need provoke for Colibri--just hit the bird to wake it and we're good."?

Every time I got into a party like that, what end up happening as often as not was the bird woke up by DRK or what not, then head straight for me, and striped my last Utusemi image as I was pulling the next bird--then parroted my Elegy on me, and I get pummeled by two birds at once. It's also kinda bad for the DD output to be chasing a bird instead of hitting it.

Of course, if a DRK was on /NIN, he could've solved the problem by casting a Stun (1280 VE + 180 CE) at the start of every fight to keep the birds from flying away. With Haste, gears, and March x2, Stun recast can be as low as 23 seconds--even better than Provoke's timer.

Would be much more awkward on DRK/SAM to try that.

[Aksannyi]

DRK/SAM still has Seigan and Third Eye, they'll be okay until someone else grabs some hate.

[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Aksannyi

DRK/SAM still has Seigan and Third Eye, they'll be okay until someone else grabs some hate.

Then I guess I'll just lvl Sam to 37 for Third Eye/Seigan. And I can still deal more damage than a /nin, and I also have +5 Str, and a small haste bonus when I have Hasso up. Hmmm... But then my casting on Drain, and Aspir, and Stun will be lowered though. But thats a small price to pay though, as I doubt I will need it as I won't be pushing hate to far.

[Aksannyi]

In merit, you won't cast anything anyway. Colibri cast back whatever you cast.