[DakAttack]

I wanted to bring up a few things in FFXI that I have always felt were simply wrong: the elemental wheel, and damage types.

At one point Jarre brought up how, as a firefighter, he was responsible for reducing the damage of water as well, to which I suggested he choose sides. While it may have been funny, it was an ignorant statement. There is no battle between fire and water, rather, one is simply "defeated", in a sense, by the other. Water defeats fire, but what defeats water? Earth; specifically, sandbags. Fire is weak to water, which, in turn, is weak to Earth. What is Earth weak to?

According to FFXI's elemental wheel, Earth is weak to wind. Now, wind and water are both known to erode and change the shape of Earth, but over millions of years. Persistant, yes, though weak. Taking a few steps back, according to the wheel, water is weak to lightning. Lighting? Putting an electrical current through water actually makes it more dangerous than water by itself. Sure, if you electrocute a pond full of fish you've just killed a whole bunch of fish, but fish aren't water, they're simply creatures that live in water.

Now, to follow my logic you might need to learn a few other associations I've made between elements and other aspects of the game. I've associated each element with a stat, with the exception of one stat that is associated with two elements. Fire to strength, water to mind, Earth to vtality, lightning to dexterity, intellegence to ice, and agility to wind. I feel charisma should be associated to both light and dark. I see charisma as a personality feature, and I feel that if you associate light and dark to good and evil, respectively, then light and dark could also be features of personality. Not only can you find yourself anywhere on a spectrum of being charismatic, but on a spectrum of being charismatically good or evil. Don't like it? Tell me about it.

I also associate weapons with elements, but to an incomplete degree. I've always likened polearms to lightning, daggers to wind, and bludgeoning weapons to Earth. I've realized lately that it wasn't so much the weapon itself to the type of damage the weapon does. Piercing likened to lightning, slashing to wind, and bludgeoning to Earth. This leaves out a lot of other elements, though, so it's an idea I'm developing on the side.

The associations I make are based on symbolic relations involving concept and application. Lightning is symbolic of precision and power, as well as accuracy and critical hit chance, which I believe are in line with its association with dexterity. Think that's crazy? Tell me about it.


According to the elemental wheel:

Fire<Water<Lightning<Earth<Wind<Ice

I find that this makes much more sense:

Fire<Water<Earth<Lightning<Ice<Wind

Fire is weak to water; water puts out fire, duh. Earth contains water, but is shattered by lightning. Wind can escape and redirect ice, while simply spreading fire. At this moment, I'm unsure of the relationship between lightning and ice, but I believe all the other connections are logical.

Now, if each element is a job that is characteristic of the element, it might go something like this: Fire is dealing damage, but is out-healed by Water, whose offensive abilities wouldn't be enough to defeat Earth. Earth would be defeated by Lightning, due to his accuracy and critical hits, while those same two strengths, among others, would be routed by Ice's ability to enfeeble. Wind can easily evade and overwhelm Ice, while it can do little or nothing to damage Fire.

This makes a lot of implications that may or may not be present in FFXI, but you'll notice similar patterns in FFXI and other games. In World of Warcraft, Warlocks (ice) are easily defeated by the overwhelming power of Rogues (wind), whose abilities really only enrage Warriors (fire), while the Priest (water) can restore or mitigate any damage dealth by the Warrior. The whole wheel can't be compared to either WoW or FFXI because the job systems are more expansive, include multiple elements, or include their very own elements such as nature. Only little things, here and there, could be related.

The FFXI experience wouldn't be the same without the elements. The days of the week are associated with particular elements, and on those days attacks and spells corresponding with that element deal more damage while, I believe, those corresponding to its weakness deal less damage. Avatars are associated with certain elements, and find more power on specific days of the week as well. Weather is in a similar vein; for example, on Earthsday, Earth-related enemies spawn slightly stronger. Enemies are classified by element, as well as enemy type, and I believe even the telepoints are associated to different elements; Yhoat to fire, Holla to water, Altep to Earth, Dem to lightning, Vahzl to ice, and Mea to wind. So much is related to or dependant on the elements, yet it seems as if little thought was put into the elements themselves.


Damage types are another concept I've thrown around in my head a lot. I'll be brief with my ideas this time...

For the most part, they make sense. Blunt weapons, better classified as impact, include hand-to-hand, clubs, and staves. Slashing and piercing is where I spend the most thought. Weapons in either of these categories display either animations of both, or none at all. Dagger animations both slash and pierece. I find one animation, of an Elvaan piercing with a sword, to be extremely memorable because of the curled position the arm is in while stabbing. Hand-to-hand, katanas, and great katans may also fall into two different categories. Clubs, staves, arrows, bullets, and polearms, excluding "poleaxes", fall into only one category. What about the others? Axes, greataxes, greatswords, and scythes don't easily fall into any of the three categories. Personally, I'd say they chop, which would be a combination of bludgeon, or impact, and piercing. I would even go so far as filing them under impact, rather than slashing, if no distinction were to be made. The whole point of these weapons is to really dig into your target, and niether blunt, slashing, or piercing really capture that. Single-handed axes could slash and chop, two-handed axes would only chop, and two-handed swords could pierce and chop. Scythes seem like they could pierce, slash, and chop, depending on how you used it.


I hate to end posts like this, but what do you guys think?

[Ketaru]

I feel charisma should be associated to both light and dark. I see charisma as a personality feature, and I feel that if you associate light and dark to good and evil, respectively, then light and dark could also be features of personality. Not only can you find yourself anywhere on a spectrum of being charismatic, but on a spectrum of being charismatically good or evil. Don't like it? Tell me about it.

In the universe of Final Fantasy XI, as well as many other games, Light and Darkness are neither good nor evil traits in and of themselves. Carbuncle is of Light, but he is no more good than Fenrir is. Paladin characters do not always fight for good in this game, and Dark Knights are not inherently evil. And while Light is associated with CHR, I believe Dark covers all of the attributes to a lesser degree (think of how SCH's Stormsurg works). In addition, Light is also associated with HP while Darkness is usually associated with MP.

There is more to your post, but I'll leave that to other people.

[Armando]

Lighting? Putting an electrical current through water actually makes it more dangerous than water by itself. Sure, if you electrocute a pond full of fish you've just killed a whole bunch of fish, but fish aren't water, they're simply creatures that live in water.

But here's the thing. 99% of water-based mobs aren't composed of water unless you fight Water Elementals. Most of the time you ARE fighting some sort of fish.

Will read in more detail later, don't have time now.

[Gyotsha]

Interesting, but I think the elemental wheel makes perfect sense. You must remember, that you're not attacking the elements themselves. You're attacking living beings which are just associated with a certain element.

So a fire based monster will be weakened by water and lower it's temperature

a water based monster will conduct lightning more easily and cause more internal damage

My guess for lightning based monsters is that the lightning cannot move when it is surrounded by earth, causing some sort of harm. I guess.

Wind spells are more powerful than just the normal wind, so it's power to cut and erode earth is more powerful as well.

Wind monsters are weak to ice because the ice slows down and compacts wind particles.

Ice monsters are weak to fire because fire will raise their temperature significantly which will cause more bodily harm.



Fire<Water<Earth<Lightning<Ice<Wind -

When it comes to water and earth, quantity is what matters most. Water can dissolve earth, but if there is more earth than water, the water will be absorbed. So they, more or less, stand on equal ground.

Lightning does nothing to earth because it does not conduct electricity very well. Besides. Everyone knows that lightning comes from the earth.

As for ice and lightning: because lightning is a discharge of energy looking for a place to go and ice is a decent conductor, the lightning will spread through the ice, filling it with energy on an atomic level and disperse the particles, causing it to melt. Or explode. Just ever so slightly.

As for ice and wind, the ice will cool off the wind, causing wind chill! Which will just make things even colder.

[Sekighara]

Originally Posted by Gyotsha

My guess for lightning based monsters is that the lightning cannot move when it is surrounded by earth, causing some sort of harm. I guess.

.

Well because the elemental wheel is lack metal maybe they combined the idea of metal and earth so if all earth has metal the lightning will shunder the earth to hit metal. It is loose I know but it supports your wheel.

[DakAttack]

Originally Posted by Gyotsha

Besides. Everyone knows that lightning comes from the earth.

Debatable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning explains:

How lightning initially forms is still a matter of debate:[6] Scientists have studied root causes ranging from atmospheric perturbations (wind, humidity, friction, and atmospheric pressure) to the impact of solar wind and accumulation of charged solar particles.[4] Ice inside a cloud is thought to be a key element in lightning development, and may cause a forcible separation of positive and negative charges within the cloud, thus assisting in the formation of lightning.[4]

This is interesting because it posits a relationship between lightning and ice. Perhaps the ice element can modulate its own ability to facilitate lightning, thus dampening its strength. How that would affect two characters in-game, I'm not sure.

As well as:

In the atmospheric electrical discharge, a leader of a bolt of lightning can travel at speeds of 60,000 m/s (220,000 km/h), and can reach temperatures approaching 30,000 °C (54,000 °F), hot enough to fuse silica sand into glass channels known as fulgurites which are normally hollow and can extend some distance into the ground.

Which falls in line with my association of lightning to the ability to pierce Earth. Armor breaks have been skills associated with swords and great-axes in the past, but I've always believed they were more in line with polearms. Their ability to pierce and crack armor could easily lead to the destruction of said armor, thus reducing their defense, an Earthly attribute.

[nanatsu]

As far as the lightning/water relationship, did you ever consider electrolysis? It's well known that electricity has the effect of decomposing water into oxygen and hydrogen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water So it's possible that's the reasoning behind it.

Yes, water by itself, pure water, with no solvents or minerals is a very poor conductor of electricity. But if you expose water to an electric field long enough, it begins to ionize the molecules in the water creating an ion trail, just like what happens to the air during lightning. The conductivity becomes very high, and electricity can pass through very easily.

I think more often than not, other than what might be considered a water elemental, water found out in the world will have impurities and minerals in it. The ocean is salt water, which makes it HIGHLY conductive. So unless you have a ton of pure deionized water lying around, common water conducts electricity just fine.

The fact that water can be decomposed into its primary elements by electricity, and also enhances the ability of electricity to cover a larger surface area, seems to say that lightning is somehow at least dominant over water. I also want to point out the fact that if you heat water it just turns into steam. It's still water, just in gas form. It can easily become water again. If water is absorbed by the earth, the water still exists. Over time it will release itself from the earth through evaporation. Plus, as pointed out before, enough water can dissolve earth to where you can't even notice it anymore. Lightning actually chemically decomposes it, basically destroying it.

[DakAttack]

Originally Posted by nanatsu

As far as the lightning/water relationship, did you ever consider electrolysis? It's well known that electricity has the effect of decomposing water into oxygen and hydrogen. Electrolysis of water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia So it's possible that's the reasoning behind it.

Yes, water by itself, pure water, with no solvents or minerals is a very poor conductor of electricity. But if you expose water to an electric field long enough, it begins to ionize the molecules in the water creating an ion trail, just like what happens to the air during lightning. The conductivity becomes very high, and electricity can pass through very easily.

I think more often than not, other than what might be considered a water elemental, water found out in the world will have impurities and minerals in it. The ocean is salt water, which makes it HIGHLY conductive. So unless you have a ton of pure deionized water lying around, common water conducts electricity just fine.

The fact that water can be decomposed into its primary elements by electricity, and also enhances the ability of electricity to cover a larger surface area, seems to say that lightning is somehow at least dominant over water. I also want to point out the fact that if you heat water it just turns into steam. It's still water, just in gas form. It can easily become water again. If water is absorbed by the earth, the water still exists. Over time it will release itself from the earth through evaporation. Plus, as pointed out before, enough water can dissolve earth to where you can't even notice it anymore. Lightning actually chemically decomposes it, basically destroying it.

Very interesting. Wikipedia states that the electrolysis of pure water occurs extremely slowly, if at all. This sounds a lot like water or wind eroding Earth over millions of years.

The elements can interact with each other in a lot of different ways, even if there's no relationship between the two on the wheel. I'm trying to find the most practical way of arranging them. I've considered the elements themselves in pure forms, as forces of nature, and as the characteristics of the elements that I can transfer into the skills, abilities, and characteristics of people.

[Pwnagraphic]

But Sand is earth and that is used to put out fire as well..

[nanatsu]

Originally Posted by DakAttack

Very interesting. Wikipedia states that the electrolysis of pure water occurs extremely slowly, if at all. This sounds a lot like water or wind eroding Earth over millions of years.

The elements can interact with each other in a lot of different ways, even if there's no relationship between the two on the wheel. I'm trying to find the most practical way of arranging them. I've considered the elements themselves in pure forms, as forces of nature, and as the characteristics of the elements that I can transfer into the skills, abilities, and characteristics of people.

Well that's something I wanted to point out as well. I think the elemental wheel is a simplification of certain concepts in a way that can be accessible and provide benefits. I don't think it's a matter of implementing concepts poorly and I don't think there's anything naturally wrong with how elements were implemented. Anything about the ffxi elemental wheel can be given justification if you interpret it in a certain way. If you get too caught up into what is "realistic" or not, then you might as well just say everything is weak to lightning and fire, since both of those things can generate large amounts of heat to the point of obliterating anything completely within a short amount of time.

[Mhurron]

This elemental conversation is edging dangerously close to applying the real world to a fantasy realm.

[Malacite]

There's nothing wrong with the elemental wheel itself as it makes sense.

Where they fucked up was BLM, giving each elemental spell a higher base damage than the previous one instead of having them all the same base damage and MP cost etc.

Resistances are also screwy. I for one hope they go back to the classic system (FF7's was best since it had varying percentages) where you would either absorb the attack, take zero damage, take reduced damage, or take increased damage depending on the element and the strengths of gear.

I.E. Master Fire Materia + Elemental Materia in armor = absorb fire, or using say Ramuh on a fish = 50% bonus damage. Too many mobs in FFXI have the same resistances too. Barely any enemies at all are weak to earth magic for example (I can only think of Courels and Lighting Elementals/Ramuh off the top of my head)


That's part of what made BLM fun in previous games; truly exploiting elemental weaknesses instead of just picking which spell has the lowest chance to be resisted.


And if you need another example as to why Wind > Earth, think of it this way; Wind enemies tend to fly and thus have the edge over groundlings.

[DakAttack]

Originally Posted by Mhurron

This elemental conversation is edging dangerously close to applying the real world to a fantasy realm.

Because fantasy isn't based at all on the real world.

Originally Posted by nanatsu

If you get too caught up into what is "realistic" or not, then you might as well just say everything is weak to lightning and fire, since both of those things can generate large amounts of heat to the point of obliterating anything completely within a short amount of time.

Well, that would be true. Fire represents strength and lightning represents dexterity, both offensive stats.

But when you think about it in terms of playing the game, you can look for a certain order as well. It would also help organize and balance different aspects of the game. Things got out of hand for Blizzard in World of Warcraft because they had no way to organize the different jobs in a way where balance could easily be monitored and maintained. They simply added, subtracted, and attempted to not redefine, in their efforts to balance the game.

If I were to come up with a job classified as fire, I would know exactly where it fits in. I would know what advantages it should have over wind, and exactly how it would fall short against water. I would also know that this would not occur in every situation. I know it sounds limited, but when you build up an interconnectedness like SE has with the elements in FFXI you can do a lot of neat things. I'm just trying to make more sense of it.

[Mog]

Water douses fire.
Fire melts ice.
Ice hinders wind.
Wind breaks up earth.
Earth grounds thunder.
Thunder shocks water.

It's how I remember the elements, and it's always made sense to me. I have no complaints with the elemental wheel.

[Kafeen]

Originally Posted by DakAttack

Fire is weak to water; water puts out fire, duh. Earth contains water, but is shattered by lightning. Wind can escape and redirect ice, while simply spreading fire. At this moment, I'm unsure of the relationship between lightning and ice, but I believe all the other connections are logical.

What? Earth is shattered by lightning? Electrical appliences are earthed because the ground can absorb electricty.

Fire needs air, actually oxygen, to be able to burn. Adding more oxygen to a fire increases it in size. I'd partially agree that Wind < Fire but Ice < Fire works aswell.