[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

I think something is misunderstood.

Japanese players would have a mage for Haste--the main use of COR/WHM would be to buff (including Corsair's Roll) and cure--meaning curing isn't a lesser duty. The mage (RDM or WHM) would also cure as well, on top of Haste (and Refresh) duty.

The COR/WHM would be using three rolls in merit parties, and one would be Evoker's. (Corsair's Roll and one melee buff round the rest.) However, he wouldn't be the only source of curing--that's just too un-Japanese like. I've done enough JP-majority parties to be pretty confident that the 99.99%+ of JP party leaders would not have a COR/WHM as the only source of HP recovery.

Any yet, they some of these JPs specifically stated "main heal."

I don't think anything was misunderstood at all.

Plus if COR is just needed for supplemental healing, /DNC is better. You can't tell me the additional damage from Slug Shots wouldn't help, especially when a Joyeuse COR could slip right back into getting TP for curing with ease and add Steps and Sambas to the mix.

Finally, if you don't have a BRD in PT, you have no reason to do Corsair's Roll. None. I don't care if the PT asked for it, they have Sanction and Empress Bands for that. A COR/WHM that has Evoker's and Corsair's Roll up is slowing that PT down. Evoker's is OK considering COR/WHM, however, Corsair's Roll in the place of another melee buff is poor form.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Any yet, they some of these JPs specifically stated "main heal."

I don't think anything was misunderstood at all.

Here's the text in question:

If you aim for efficiency, a party with 3 melee w/ Utsusemi, a RDM/WHM (buffer), a BRD/NIN (puller) and a COR/WHM (main healer) is very strong. A lot of Japanese players use merit parties to gather data, and the results of this combination are very good. We try to build solid merit parties that can maximize the amount of Limit points earned in an hour.

There's a RDM/WHM in there. I've never seen a JP RDM who does not toss out cures, and lot's of it.

Here's what I think happens at the start of the party; the COR starts buffing, and the RDM RR's up, Protect/Shell IV each member, Haste them, and goes /heal on to recover some MP. At that point, COR would be (temporary) the only curing power for a while--this means cures takes priority over buffs while RDM is getting more MP.

Without seeing the original JP text, that's the best I can speculate on what does "main healer" mean in this case--"mainly focused on cure" (to the point where cures are prioritized over rolls if anyone's missing HP) is my first guess.

Another guess would be that the original writer wanted to emphasis the difference between the COR's mode of operation and that of the RDM's in that set up; COR could be standing and ready to cure at all times while the RDM may take more time resting or sometimes run away a bit to use Convert.

In any case, a RDM75 should have MP leftover after Haste x5 + Refresh x2 with Evoker's Roll (and probably a Ballad) on, especially if he can get breaks regularly for hMP. A COR/WHM would allow the RDM the luxury of those hMP times.

* * *

Translation is a funny thing; ◀Hello!▶ does not mean "Hello!" in Japanese--there is no such word meaning 'hello' in Japanese, so SE picked something else to display when it's shown in JP FFXI client. If a simple word like 'Hello' is already problematic, translating user slang (which is what "main healer" is) can only be more difficult.

So what does [Hello!] mean?

It's こんにちは, which is time specific so cannot be used in early morning nor after late afternoon. 'Hello!' certainly has no restrictions like those. The sentiment is actually closer to "Good day", except it cannot be used on parting, only in meeting. The literal meaning is something like "today".

At this time, only Elmer knows what was "main healer" before he translated the response into that particular phrase, and there's no guarantee he understood the original writer completely, either. Heck it's entirely possible the original writer took a shortcut and skipped over a word or two which would have qualified what he meant more fully, for all we know, and render "main healer" to be inaccurate to what he really meant.

* * *

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Plus if COR is just needed for supplemental healing, /DNC is better.

I don't disagree with this, nor how /RNG can do good, by the way.

But, that's not the issue; the issue is whether or not the JP writer meant to say COR was the only/majority source of cures. Your preferences is already well noted, but question is the accuracy of your interpretation of Elmer's translation.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

A COR/WHM would allow the RDM the luxury of those hMP times.

I'm going to give Elmer a little more credit than you are here, he probably picked the best description of what he read. I'm also going to wager he knows more Japanese than either of us. Split hairs if you wish, but I take it to mean COR was main healing while RDM helped pull and maintain buffs and healed on backup. Kinda dumb since COR can actually pull and stage fights better than RDM if they have a Peacemaker, as Colibri can't mimic Light Shot since its a job ability and its seldom resisted on other mobs.

At any rate, it doesn't show why COR/WHM is better by the JP's reasoning. A COR's damage might not be needed if the DDs are really, really tricked out and you knew them to play at thier peak, but then, I've found even some with great gear just don't use it right.

At any rate, I find COR/WHM to be a "mindless adherence" thing, particularly in the face of /DNC being in the game over a year and a half now.

But then, we still have WHMs trotting around with /BLM and /SMN and not SCH, so can't say I'm surprised here.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

I'm going to give Elmer a little more credit than you are here, he probably picked the best description of what he read. I'm also going to wager he knows more Japanese than either of us. Split hairs if you wish, but I take it to mean COR was main healing while RDM helped pull and maintain buffs and healed on backup.

If you want to be literal and at the same time insist that translations are such perfect and straightforward things, then note that the original text specified only BRD as the puller, with no mention of RDM helping on that front.

Why are you assuming RDM is the backup puller while so adamant that the RDM is not co-healer, when neither duty is mentioned for the RDM?

In any case, what I was objecting to:

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

The situations listed in Elmer's article noted that these COR/WHMs were main healing. Meaning they were the only healer.

At least now you say "RDM ... healed on backup". At another few posts and you may actually admit JP CORs and RDMs likely work together in a happy partnership to keep the front line and BRD in good health.

Seriously, if you do any significant amount of partying with JP players at any level, you will see that even BLMs cure. Anyone in party who can cure, will. JP RDMs do not complain they want to melee and nuke and don't want to cure. It just doesn't happen...

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

At any rate, it doesn't show why COR/WHM is better by the JP's reasoning.

No, it doesn't go into the reasons. However, you misread it if you think it says COR/WHM is better than COR/RNG or COR/DNC; the original writer says DD/NIN x3 + BRD/NIN + COR/WHM + RDM/WHM is a well tested combination good for making merit points. The COR/WHM isn't separable from the rest of the setup--it's a package deal.

JP players' views tend to be party orientated, not player or job orientated.

In fact if you actually read his next paragraph:

Personally, I do think a Buffer/Melee Corsair is good as well. However, wanting to melee in a party low on healing (or not wanting to in a party with sufficient healing) just causes problems. Really, the issue is trying not to limit the functions of a Corsair and realizing it is there to work in tune with the party, not by itself.

That should clue you in; they don't think RDM/WHM is a sufficient healer for the entire party. So, add another cure source--and, of all the people in the party, the JP community believes that COR is the best to pair /WHM with.

* * *

Looking at the setup carefully, it looks like COR/WHM in this case is used to take advantage of triple-decker MP recovery to spread out the curing load; the thinking seems to be that the average of 9 MP/tick or so (~120 MP/min--Evoker, Refresh, Ballad, Sanction) is worth taking advantage of.

Is it more efficient than TP cures from /DNC? I'm not sure.

I can see /WHM offering a few tricks /DNC can't match:
- Better recast timer for -na's compared with Healing Waltz
- Erase for Song effect (from parroted Elegy)
- RR w/out consumables
- Another option for bar- spell if RDM too busy
- Able to consistently stay out of Sleepga range
- Protect/Shell II for back line jobs
- Another Dia II option
- Better recast timer for Curaga (vs. Divine Waltz), and additional AoE cure option in Curaga II.

Of course, /DNC also has a few tricks /WHM can't touch:
- Additional damage output
- Instant launch curing
- Quick/Box Step
- Free HP recovery with every melee hit (Drain Samba)
- Weighted (evasion-10?) effect with Desperate Flourish

Right now, on paper it would seem /DNC on Greater Colibri is good, even if it means leaving erasing Elegy to RDM/WHM alone. (Should be relatively rare need anyway, since the JP setup has the front line entirely on /NIN.)

Mamool Ja I'm not too sure about; the occasional Sleepga, Ice Spikes, -ga nukes, etc. slipping through are pretty annoying when they happen, and you don't want to be melee'ing when they do. Making sure Barfira stays up is pretty useful, too. Would be nice to stay out of Sea Puk's and Skoffin's AoE range, as well.

Roaming Imp/Fly/Jnun party... er... Do people still merit like that? Seems like there are always lower level parties camping along the path on Ifrit. Definitely don't want /DNC there even if the roaming path is free.

[Sekighara]

Well with all speculation aside we can only go by what the translation is read as. The truth some things maybe be lost in translation is relevant but we can't prove or disprove it, because there is no one for one as itazura stated in different words, but is not always true some times there is 1 for 1 and some times there is many for one and one for many so we have to have faith in the translation. If you can contact Elmer some how to get the original then by all means do, but eventually the discussion will either go in circles or dead end at the fact that maybe the writer didn't mean this. But this is just my thoughts.

Also as far as i can tell the rdm was never stated to do anything, so we can assume two things from this one the rdm did absolute nothing or the rdm didn't do anything the writer thought was different then normal. Now here is the problem, what is normal to the player that wrote the statement. We can only assume buff and sub healing. But what was other side of the equation we don't know which rolls were being used if BBQKitten is correct they are effectly making the Cor into a supped up 37 whm with a job ability for refresh and another attack buff. That to me is really making /dnc or full DD looking better in the long run.

For some reason I cannot see them saying it's a better use of the job in a combo that is effectly making the job more replaceable. The rolls to me might make the difference. I am unsure how roll overwritting works mostly because I have yet to play COR and I don't remember the faq about it. So could it be the cor was switching out to different rolls in a cycle to get and give different things at certain times? Maybe overwritting one with COR roll moments before the mob bites the dust for extra xp?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I don't think the roaming Caedarva Mire Merit PTs happen much anymore, people would rather do Trolls than that camp if birds are not available. Or just go Campaign. Hard to get people to do trolls, though I think its one of the more fun camps in the game.

Mire isn't practical for /DNC, but ?RNG, /WHM and /NIN all work out fine there. I just stay out of AoE range and shoot, then move in to Slug Shot when I think its safe to do so.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Sekighara

Also as far as i can tell the rdm was never stated to do anything, so we can assume two things from this one the rdm did absolute nothing or the rdm didn't do anything the writer thought was different then normal. Now here is the problem, what is normal to the player that wrote the statement. We can only assume buff and sub healing. But what was other side of the equation we don't know which rolls were being used if BBQKitten is correct they are effectly making the Cor into a supped up 37 whm with a job ability for refresh and another attack buff. That to me is really making /dnc or full DD looking better in the long run.

Well, I have no aggregated data, so can't state with authority on what is 'normal' to the JP players. I did, however, had a merit party last night on Greater Colibri (mid level camp) party with this setup:

WAR/NIN (EN? English speaker; NA or not I don't know.)
WAR/NIN (JP)
DRK/NIN (JP)
COR/WHM (JP)
RDM/WHM (JP)
BRD/NIN (NA--that would be me)

Yep, exactly the same as the one which was in question.

Performance:

47745 experience points (52745 actually, but deducting 5000 for Anniversary and Emperor rings)
2 hrs 11 minutesdration (including a ~5 min break)

21.867k/hour (base figure; before rings, including break time.)

I think we lost chain once because I was a dummy and didn't have enough Shihei in inventory, and inventory was completely full so using the toolbag did nothing. Another chain lost when the WAR/NIN (EN) lost connection. There was a stretch when the WAR/NIN (JP) when back to Whitegate (to use up his merit points, I think?), so no real chaining for some minutes.

Overly, relatively smooth even with my rusty meripo pulling skills. Had multiple links, and even a link > add > link sequence in there, and the party got through it easily enough. Zero death. 112 was the highest chain. (80-something on the chain that ended by WAR/NIN (EN)'s d/c, I think?)

Is 21.8k/hour amazing? Not by today's standard, no, but decent enough for me. (Certainly in the upper range of pick-up group for me, and this was a pick-up group.)

Smooth and working? Oh, yeah. Wasn't strong enough to kill Wivre and keep chain, but we wiped out the Colibri in mid level easily, and I had to pull from the lower section every single cycle.

Anyway, the main reason to mention performance is to assure people that it was a working party. So, moving on to the heart of the matter...

Corsair
- Chaos Roll, Evoker's Roll, Corsair's Roll.
- Backup sleeper with Light Shot.
- Co-healer

Red Mage:
- Haste, Refresh, Protectra II
- Dia II
- Backup sleeper with sleep.
- Co-healer
- Convert used once only

Curing Load:
- Red Mage: 27562 HP (directly), 0 Regen.
- Corsair: 17608 HP (directly), 14 Regen.
(The actual amount is probably a lot more; keep in mind I was BRD, and was often out of range so parser could not pick up all data.)

The DDs were quite decent at keeping up Utsusemi (nullified 77-83% of attacks), and the the back line had no MP trouble. (They usually get no more than a Ballad II from me, and often not even that when the pulling get long.)

Again, this is just one party, and not even a full JP party (because, well, I'm not JP, and neither was the WAR/NIN (EN) leader). Still, since both COR and the RDM were JP, I'm guessing they were acting pretty 'normal' in terms of duty distribution.


* * *

Personal thoguhts:

- As a RDM, I was utterly jealoused at how nice this RDM had it in terms of MP recovery, curing duty, and overall work load compared to when I had to merit on RDM in the same camp... If I can be assured of parties like this, I wouldn't mind un-retiring my meripo RDM.

- RDM + COR offered incredible safety in terms of crowd control. I think we could've survived a 5+ Colibri link diaster easily, with RDM and COR waking each other up if slept. (Though, it's better that I wasn't that horrible of a puller to bring back five... Only brought back two at once at most.)

- One weak point was that the provokes were often late; that meant a few times a sleeping bird woke up by melee, took my last Utusemi image, then Lullaby on me... It may have been better to not Lullaby at all, and use the COR to sleep everything. (Then again, Light Shot was 85.19% accurate, while Lullaby had 96.48% landing rate...)

- With MP recovery and available co-healer like that, I would have used Protect IV instead of Protectra II if I was the RDM. Upgrading from Dia II two to Dia III every fight would have been feasible, too, even at at only two merits.

- We were at a somewhat uncomfortable place where we were killing much faster than Colibri respawn then the mid-level camp can support (thankfully the lower camp was empty), yet not strong enough to take on the Wivre. (May have been able to keep chain if everyone were prepared, however.)

* * *

Whether you should love the JP meripo setup or hate it, I guess it comes down to whether 21.8k/hour or so is good enough for you or not.

If good, then DD/NIN and COR/WHM bring safety and resiliency to prevent KO and yet pack enough firepower to clear out all the Greater Colibri (middle camp).

If not good, then DD/SAM, and COR/RNG are the way to go, given the same main jobs, and party subject itself to higher chances of KO or MP depletion in exchange for higher exp/hour potential.

Oh, since I was BRD running around pulling, I probably missed a few Corsair's Roll, and rest of the party may have had it slightly better than my 21.8k/hour.