[Effedup]

I was reading the most recent release by the STFU and noticed there was bannings for "illegal use of synthesis and the auction hall for RMT" (or something to that effect) and I have a question...

I've been levelling cooking for a while now, got to 70 finally after making what seemed like dozens upon dozens of San d'Orian Tea and Pear Au Lait. Standard A.H. prices for those items are about 1k a piece on my server, and they sell fairly well at that price.

First off, this isn't your standard "undercutters suck" rant...just to get that out of the way. One question I have is, what exactly constitutes "illegal use of the A.H. for RMT"? Reason being, I've been getting a lot of competition over selling these things on the A.H. I won't sell my shit below cost (unless it just never ever moves and I have to vendor it, but why pay AH fees to lose even more money?), but one asshole in particular has been getting ridiculous, like selling them for like 20 gil. So, after constantly fighting with this guy on the AH, I said "fuck it" and just started buying his up with a mule for the 20 gil he's listing them for and relist them at an appropriate price. I mean, if he lists them for 20 gil, that's all he wants for them, right?

So, that being said, should I worry about being targeted for doing that and possibly being banned? I'm not a gilseller, so if this guy say got pissed and complained (he's obviously banking on people being lazy bidders) would he have a leg to stand on? Would a GM be able to tell that I'm obviously not a gilseller? Or would a GM (I would hope) recognize that the guy was an idiot, and if he put them up for 1 gil that all he should expect to receive?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I think STF is referring to pricefixers. RMT have recently gone back to thier old RoZ-Era price rigging out of what is pretty much complete desparation, particularly NM drops and BCNM drops.

They'll buy what they can off the AH an then sell it back and forth between thier accounts, rigging the "standard" price higher than it probably should be.

Odin is seeing a lot of this go down right now. One example is the Elemental Torque I keep wanting to buy. It inexplicably will jump from 70 ro 250k and the "sellers" jacking it up to 250k are always the same, as are the "buyers."

Buy low, sell high, make gil to sell by artificial means.

By undercutting them, you can potentially strike a blow or end up getting them another of the same item to mark up.

Camp the NM.
Do the BCNM.

Don't buy from the AH if you suspect an item is being manipulated via pricefixing. Report the suspicious players to STF if you see thier names recurring over the course of a week on particular items. Specify what those items are and who you feel is manipulating them.

There are still RMT that try to undercut just to make gil faster on smaller things like Moat Carp and, yeah, they suck, but there's little else you can do aside from report them.

[Effedup]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

There are still RMT that try to undercut just to make gil faster on smaller things like Moat Carp and, yeah, they suck, but there's little else you can do aside from report them.

Well, the thing is, I doubt this guy is RMT. Honestly, he's prolly just another guy levelling up cooking, seemingly by the same route I am (I had to compete with him hard over Sandy Tea's, and then again over Pear Au Laits when he finished unloading his). The only difference is he's not undercutting by like 10% or 20%, he's listing at like a 98% discount. The only way I even knew how ridiculously low he was selling them for was when I got fed up after my shit kicked back for the umpteenth time and bid 20 gil and actually bought one; since most people are lazy or in a hurry and bid the going price without trying to underbid, he sells them for the same price I do...it's just mine never sell because I list mine somewhat reasonably.

Morally, I can see how someone camping the AH, buying undercut goods to relist them and thus pricefixing, would be wrong, but is it wrong to fight back by buying them up at the 20 gil they listed them for and reselling them for what they are going for, and have been going for, since the economy straightened itself out after the mass bannings way back when? Would buying cheap and vendoring them, as opposed to selling on the AH, be considered price fixing?

[KingOfZeal]

I don't think so... especially if you would be selling back to the NPC. If sellers (or this guy in particular) keeps getting minuscule gil back from his hard work, even if it's for skilling up, he's going to learn and raise the prices to more of market price, so he's not taking so much loss.

I think price fixing would fall under repeatedly buying items at the higher (regular) prices, then reselling them on the AH for whatever price you want.

[Szkol]

Originally Posted by Effedup

Morally, I can see how someone camping the AH, buying undercut goods to relist them and thus pricefixing, would be wrong,

Can this really be considered pricefixing?

I think it's really only pricefixing if its a group of people making at coordinated effort at altering the price- like mentioned above- repeatedly buying/selling the same item over and over again-

The OP said he ended up buying all the undercutter's goods to sell at a more reasonable price- and I don't think that's anywhere near price fixing. Heck, just yesterday my mule was in Bastok and I saw a bunch of stack of Coeurl Whiskers for about 1/2 the price of the Jeuno AH- I bought them up for the sole purpose of reselling in Jeuno. To me, that's not price fixing, that's just playing the economy.

It seems like a fine line to cross... I dunno- any other opinions out there?

[Caspian]

Its not wrong, its just smart. I would always start off lowballing to see if I could get a deal. If someone is willing to list an item at 1 or 100 gil, then they're willing to risk selling it for that amount.

[Feenicks]

That's right. It's not morally wrong or against the TOS. The only way I think it would be a problem is if you were selling a enough stacks to yourself or your mule so that the previous price history would be erased and you started listing for a new, inflated price.

[The Mauva Syndicate]

More than one guide on the Wiki even suggests placing your items up for a slightly lower price to sell out sooner than another player who listed for market price.

[Ameroth]

Originally Posted by Effedup

just started buying his up with a mule for the 20 gil he's listing them for and relist them at an appropriate price. I mean, if he lists them for 20 gil, that's all he wants for them, right?

There's no wrong in doing this. It's simple supply and demand. The supply of an item happens to be higher than the demand: people lower prices to match demand. The supply of an item cannot keep up with demand: people raise prices to compete with demand. If someone is simply posting items on auction well below market value while there is still a reasonable demand, it's anyone's prerogative to buy those items out and sell them at market value. You will not get banned for this because it is fair market practice.

STF bans RMT accounts for what the others have already explained: price-fixing/adjusting. If the same person (or people affiliated with each other) buy and sell to themselves in an attempt to fix a price at a certain value, that is not free market practice. That's similar to real world insider trading, which as Martha showed us, is very much illegal.

Buy low and sell high is a basic economic principle. Gouging and fixing prices is not.

[Effedup]

Ok, well based on these responses, I feel better now. Since there's obviously no way I can reasonably compete with someone selling shit waaaaay below cost (and I mean cost as in everything from a vendor with max fame, farming crystals), and dude insists on listing his shit for 20 gil to sell his first, I'm gonna buy up every single one he lists for pennies and relist. Maybe he'll get the hint and start selling the shit more reasonably.

Well, either that or I'll end up with mules completely full of Pear Au Laits. Guess we'll find out...

[Jarre]

I will always put something on the AH 10 gil lower than the last most common price in the price history list. If my item is the only one then I'll stick it at 10 gil under the mean price.

[ruffrydasean]

Originally Posted by Jarre

I will always put something on the AH 10 gil lower than the last most common price in the price history list. If my item is the only one then I'll stick it at 10 gil under the mean price.

Thats what I always do.. but like he said.. listing for pennies is ridiculous